Why incels are a 'real and present threat' for Canadians

Oct 26, 2017
6,040
Via CBC:
It all began with a Facebook post on Jan. 19, 2019.

A Colorado man named Christopher Cleary took to social media and laid out the plan for an attack that was coming together in his mind.

"I'm 27 years old and I've never had a girlfriend before and I'm still a virgin," Cleary wrote. "This is why I'm planning on shooting up a public place soon and being the next mass shooter."

In this case, police tracked him down — en route to a women's march in Utah — before he was able to carry out his plan.

But it doesn't always work out that way when men who identify themselves as incels — or involuntary celibates — post such thoughts online.

In April 2018, Alek Minassian allegedly drove a van into pedestrians in Toronto, killing 10 and injuring 16 others. Before the attack, a post appeared on Minassian's Facebook account that said "the Incel Rebellion has already begun."
Experts interviewed by The Fifth Estate have identified 120 instances of extreme violence in Canada by right-wing groups, including incels, in the past 30 years. This is compared to only seven by Islamist-inspired extremists.

Authorities in Canada and the U.S. are often quick to call these incidents "lone wolf" attacks, but criminologists and sociologists are sounding the alarm on incels and other growing internet subcultures that promote extreme violence. They say the threat posed by these groups isn't being taken seriously enough.

"These people are extraordinarily dangerous," Mike Arntfield, a criminologist at Western University in London, Ont., told The Fifth Estate. "As soon as you have a suicidal, disoriented male, all bets are off in terms of what they're capable of doing.... Many are suicidal and some are homicidal.

"This [group] has an organization to it."
Still, these attacks are often quickly deemed "lone wolf" attacks by authorities, and the public is told there's no threat to public safety.

Experts in Canada and the U.S. are sounding the alarm bells on groups like incels, and encouraging authorities to take them more seriously.

"We're missing something," said Perry. "How is this not an attack on national security?… There's a real and present threat associated with the far right.… I think we make a dangerous mistake thinking about it as only ... a fringe movement."
"The Elliot Rodgers and other mass killers do sometimes take on a mythical quality because, for some incels, they embody the ultimate form of resistance against a feminist culture that doesn't value them for who they are," Haenfler said.

Incels may be a recent term, Haenfler said, but in many ways the social climate that produced them has been 50 years in the making.

"What we've seen is a long-term cycle of social change in which women, people of colour, LGBTQ people, immigrants and others have demanded recognition and rights," he said. "There's the sense on the part of the incels that those rights are coming at the expense of white, heterosexual men."

Haenfler has been studying trends in alt-right and incel violence, and said he worries that things will only get worse.

"I wish, with all my heart, I could say that we've seen the last of these mass killings, but in all honesty, the cultural ingredients are there. The foundation is there. That hasn't gone away. So, in the foreseeable future, I'm very sad to say, I anticipate more of these kinds of killings."
There is much more at the link above. It's not a single loner nerd on a computer by himself. They're organized. They talk to each other. They spread their message to others. Lone wolves my ass. Lock if old.
 

Myradeer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,424
Canada
I mean, take a number of terrorist incidents and check the perpetrator's "alignment"... my assumption will be that incel will have greater association with terrorist attacks more than the traditional sources.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
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Incels/MRAs/MGTOWs are a very real threat, and I worry that with right-wing populism rising they will feel emboldened and carry out atrocities rather than re-directing their anger in more productive ways.
 

ThomasJames

Member
Jan 15, 2019
1,972
Incels/MRAs/MGTOWs are a very real threat, and I worry that with right-wing populism rising they will feel emboldened and carry out atrocities rather than re-directing their anger in more productive ways.
And I'd have to imagine the current administration (here in the US, probably not in Canada) isn't taking the threat they pose seriously, either.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
3,727
How odd... I'm nearly 28, basically a virgin in some people's eyes (only times I've had sex were with prostitutes) and never had a serious relationship. Yet here I am, not planning to commit a mass shooting or trying to use others as scapegoats for my own personal shortcomings.

Incels are pathetic.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,132
How odd... I'm nearly 28, basically a virgin in some people's eyes (only times I've had sex were with prostitutes) .
how does that work? because it wasn't on your prom night with butterflies and ribbons, you still have your juvenile aspects and aren't truly an adult? People treat this shit too much like an RPG game with levels and unlocks, and the whole Virginity Authority thing is complete bullshit.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
3,727
how does that work? because it wasn't on your prom night with butterflies and ribbons, you still have your juvenile aspects and aren't truly an adult? People treat this shit too much like an RPG game with levels and unlocks, and the whole Virginity Authority thing is complete bullshit.
Yeah, something like that.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
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Is this a joke article?

EDIT: oh I’ve never heard of the incels movement before. I thought this was some weird onion article about virgins being more likely to commit atrocities.
 

Tribal_Cult

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,548
The scary part is that you cannot tell who might be one of them so easily most of the time. I have a few friends / aquaintances that are definitely old virgins or close but they rather avoid the argument of girls or sex instead than spouting that shit. But who knows? Maybe secretly they lurk one of those forums out there. I find this stuff exceptionally fascinating though. I have to admit it's eerily entertaining to read their posts sometimes. In Italy though are pretty rare I imagine. It's mostly about culture, I guess.
 

Nere

Member
Dec 8, 2017
1,173
how does that work? because it wasn't on your prom night with butterflies and ribbons, you still have your juvenile aspects and aren't truly an adult? People treat this shit too much like an RPG game with levels and unlocks, and the whole Virginity Authority thing is complete bullshit.
Achievement unlocked: Virginity Lost!
 

bremon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,405
I worked with a guy who was huge into conspiracy theory sites, Joe Rogan, Alex Jones, etc. He had no love life to speak of and he used to talk about how so many people are idiots and how the world would be better if large swathes of people were “purged”. He made people extremely uncomfortable.

Achievement unlocked: Virginity Lost!
A secret trophy you find out is 0 gamerscore.
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,520
I'm not sure if it's related, but the r/canada subreddit has been taken over and dominated by the alt right.
 

LazyLain

Member
Jan 17, 2019
3,727
Why? Because you paid for it? Do you need to DOMINATE FEMALES with ALPHA moves to "truly" escape virginity?
I don't think this, but yes there are people out there who have condescending opinions regarding soliciting a prostitute's services and whether or not it counts for losing your "v-card".
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
21,962
Not America
Perhaps it is by percent of a given population but it is inaccurate to assume that only "white heterosexual men" fit that description.

Social media has done a lot to find the hate pockets of resonance for the subculture (thanks to red and black pills) and over the years it has grown to now what has become utterly fatal.

Also, the spread of "incel" movement has made me wonder about whether people (men) who are virgins by circumstance should lie about their "experiences" because there is a clear distinction in attitude (like white supremacist vs white folks).
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
10,447
How exactly do we solve the incel problem?
Short Term: Actually treat them like any other terrorist group with consistent monitoring, raids, and information campaigns instead of feeling sorry for them because "that could've been me" or calling them lone wolves.

Long Term: Combat toxic masculinity and destigmatize mental illness.
 

Bisnic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,653
Canada
"I'm 27 years old and I've never had a girlfriend before and I'm still a virgin," Cleary wrote. "This is why I'm planning on shooting up a public place soon and being the next mass shooter."
How does some people get this kind of insane murderous logic?? "Hey I'm an old virgin... let's go kill some innocent people because, why not?"
 
Oct 31, 2017
5,713
How does some people get this kind of insane murderous logic?? "Hey I'm an old virgin... let's go kill some innocent people because, why not?"
Toxic masculinity through pick up artist and red pill internet groups has groomed a generation of frustrated mostly white young men into feeling worthless enough to take their angry out on innocent people

It’s been a mindset implanted in these men
 

jelly

Member
Oct 26, 2017
20,419
Is the incel thing fanned by Russia, etc seems like the sort of thing they would do to ruin generations of kids and adults just by posting on the internet.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
21,962
Not America
Short Term: Actually treat them like any other terrorist group with consistent monitoring, raids, and information campaigns instead of feeling sorry for them because "that could've been me" or calling them lone wolves.

Long Term: Combat toxic masculinity and destigmatize mental illness.
Education, education, education and Time.

Combating toxic masculinity when it comes to this is essentially having to rewrite fundamental cultural values that are designated to men against which they measure their self worth. From patriarchy to capitalism to comedy to status to LGBTQ rights to religious beliefs and beyond- this seeds of this issue are extraordinarily deep and their results are reinforced by way of reward (best example being the celebration of Trump as a man as perceived by 68 million 'mericans) than condemnation.

It is the only way of life some of these people have known which makes them extremely vulnerable to radicalization. In very many ways, this is the same way Islamic terrorist heads do their recruiting.
 

fertygo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,513
Can these people just jerk off and be happy with it.. sheesh

Like I'm basically count as incel too and imagine will not have partner for the rest of my life. Its deppresing but jebus I dont became self loathing nazi.
 
OP
OP
UnpopularBlargh
Oct 26, 2017
6,040
Short Term: Actually treat them like any other terrorist group with consistent monitoring, raids, and information campaigns instead of feeling sorry for them because "that could've been me" or calling them lone wolves.

Long Term: Combat toxic masculinity and destigmatize mental illness.
They actually go into it a bit in the article:
"It's not going to do much good to engage in trying to insert counter narratives into their little echo chambers because they're going to be shouted down," she said. "Whoever's intervening is going to be attacked and going to be dismissed."

Instead, Perry said that an important starting point is for people to be having "conversations with our sons, with our nephews, as well as our girls."

"We've talked to girls and young women for eons now about how they can protect themselves, how they can defend themselves from the violence as well as the language, and it's time that we turn the table and ... ask men to be accountable for their behaviour," she said.
Basically confront bad behaviour in people near and dear to us.Teach them to be better, and hope it spreads from there.
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Perhaps it is by percent of a given population but it is inaccurate to assume that only "white heterosexual men"
Trust me, if incels were mostly men of color, Western governments would turn fascist faster than they are now to quell the incel threat.

Is the incel thing fanned by Russia, etc seems like the sort of thing they would do to ruin generations of kids and adults just by posting on the internet.
We can't be blame Russia on this.
 

Deleted member 23212

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Oct 28, 2017
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To be honest, I don't think it's sexual desire, I think it's more that they view having a girl as a sort of trophy/status symbol, and as they don't have one they feel inferior and get angry and lash out at women and men that have girlfriends.
 

Ernest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,893
So.Cal.
These guys aren't emotionally equipped to handle their own lives.
How do they expect to be emotionally prepared for a relationship?
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,617
How does some people get this kind of insane murderous logic?? "Hey I'm an old virgin... let's go kill some innocent people because, why not?"
This is really an example of the power of thoughts and beliefs. Virginity, simply put, is a concept: what's the "real" way to lose it, what counts, where does it go when it's "lost", all of that is just thinking. And we see some who take that thinking to such extremes that they are "cursed" and thus feel the need to curse others.

Incels are similar to religious extremists in that it's their beliefs and their identification with them that is a danger to themselves and to any local community associated with them, even in passing.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,132
Toxic masculinity through pick up artist and red pill internet groups has groomed a generation of frustrated mostly white young men into feeling worthless enough to take their angry out on innocent people

It’s been a mindset implanted in these men
They should be held accountable since their whole beans and butter is "do you want to be a worthless virgin? if not, then give me money and listen to me talk." Then it either makes them toxic assholes, or worse. Their attempts to create a market for their pick up artist, master womanizer books and videos and shows via websites and communities affected a lot of people, and this is a wave bouncing back. I mean they even had game shows and reality tv shows for that crap.
 
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Sothen

Member
Dec 15, 2017
955
I am a 27 year-old virgin who's never been on a date. To be real the feeling sucks sometimes, but the idea that someone would take that and use it as an excuse to harm others is despicable and it saddens me. The problem is, I think, the internet communities these people must associate with are stuck in a neverending loop of self-hatred and no one in them ever dares to foster a positive atmosphere out of fear of appearing "weak".
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,940
To be honest, I don't think it's sexual desire, I think it's more that they view having a girl as a sort of trophy/status symbol, and as they don't have one they feel inferior and get angry and lash out at women and men that have girlfriends.
It's basically this, combined with a lot of toxic attitudes towards entitlement, gender roles, and such.

And perhaps the inability to reconcile the real world with their personal, toxic expectations.
 

Entryhazard

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,843
how does that work? because it wasn't on your prom night with butterflies and ribbons, you still have your juvenile aspects and aren't truly an adult? People treat this shit too much like an RPG game with levels and unlocks, and the whole Virginity Authority thing is complete bullshit.
Why? Because you paid for it? Do you need to DOMINATE FEMALES with ALPHA moves to "truly" escape virginity?
There is a more obvious reason, that is also related to the definition and etymology of incel (as in fact they do not demand simply sex, as that is trivially solved by finding an affordable prostitute), which is that the prostitute does not care about you and is having sex with you only because she's been paid to do so.
In that regard "being desirable enough that a woman actually wants to have sex with you" still is unfulfilled and therefore not enough to count as "graduating from virginity" or "escaping inceldom" according to some.
 

sooperkool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,159
Improve yourself and get laid. No one wants to be with some sad sack or mopey guy who lives on the internet. Get out meet people, eat better; work out if you need to and socialize and you'll end up with a partner almost by accident.
 

Turin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,187
Short Term: Actually treat them like any other terrorist group with consistent monitoring, raids, and information campaigns instead of feeling sorry for them because "that could've been me" or calling them lone wolves.

Long Term: Combat toxic masculinity and destigmatize mental illness.
And combating patriarchal influence in general.
 

Speely

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,529
Obligatory ContraPoints incel video for those in this thread that might not have seen it yet.

Incels are a very real threat to everyone. They are the embodiment of violent male insecurity that no one needs. It's not enough that they feel the need to lash out because of some fucked up sense of sexual entitlement (because MAN,) but their very ideology objectifies women so much that this objectification ends up extending to their views of human life in general.

The pathos ends up eclipsing any vestiges of human empathy they might have once had. That's where we are now, though, and treating movements like this as exceptions/fringe elements is a mistake. We need to address this shit directly.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,311
They've just latched onto an excuse to make themselves feel like like the world's against them and it's beyond their control. I do believe that depression, societal expectations of what manhood is, etc, do play their part but at it's core these are just shitty people who are looking to lash out. The internet provides them with an environment that lets them gather and wallow in a consequence free space.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,132
There is a more obvious reason, that is also related to the definition and etymology of incel (as in fact they do not demand simply sex, as that is trivially solved by finding an affordable prostitute), which is that the prostitute does not care about you and is having sex with you only because she's been paid to do so.
In that regard "being desirable enough that a woman actually wants to have sex with you" still is unfulfilled and therefore not enough to count as "graduating from virginity" or "escaping inceldom" according to some.
that's what I was getting at with ribbons and butterflies. Because this person didn't find some hen that was willing to watch and receive his mating dance ritual and magically lay a golden egg for him that turned him into a man. The moment he actually had sex didn't count, and he is still 'inferior', according to their made up fairy tale rules. And it all seems built on fairy tales and magical transformations because you found someone willing to engage in the sex act with you. And I wonder if sex workers are also some how less than people in these rules too. It has to be a 'real' woman.

So they gamify this whole thing so there can be "winners and losers", and the "losers" aren't able to move past that juvenile game in the first place, I guess for a variety of reasons.
 

Parch

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,907
A good start would be to deplatform them. Those communities are designed to drag anyone down who joins them and basically just tell other incels there's no hope and the system is rigged against them. It's a bucket of crabs.
I agree. The internet provides the like-minded bubbles where all they do is encourage each other's warped views. Their entire life is a social media community of destructive behavior.
It's time to do something about those toxic social media platforms.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,132
I am with that. Take away the InCel banner. Make it not a thing. you're not incel, you just...you know...need to work on yourself and stop shifting anxiety and blame and anger.

I mean I can understand misery loving company and wanting to communicate with people who have the same experiences to try to get a better understanding of what you're going through. But that becomes toxic when pseudo-psychology and sexism and conspiracy theories all mash together to create something ugly. And even worse when opportunists use that to enrich themselves and create cults of personality so they can insult women and tell angry dudes what they want to hear.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
8,014
instead of having sex with an amatuer or a sex hobbyist, you chose a professional. A sexual kung-fu master. There is something to be said for efficiency and skill that I don't see a lot of people realizing.
I think the lumping in happens because the person hasn't had a relationship before. Most commonly, people use the term "virgin" to describe those who haven't had sex. But sometimes when people express sadness/frustration about being a "virgin," it's a shorthand for sadness/frustration at the lack of an emotionally intimate relationship, which said poster still hasn't experienced despite having had sex itself. There's not really a good term for "never had a relationship" like there is for "never had sex".

Or at least that's how I interpret it. There's also an obvious and probably stronger element of stigmatization and objectification against sex workers, so strong to the point where sex with them doesn't even count in the eyes of some misogynists/puritans.