Why is Christianity Big in Korea, and not so much in Japan?

[Cocaloch]

You know how people in this thread have said that Japan likes tacking things on to their existing belief set and making them all compliment each other instead of fight against one another?

Christianity has an incredibly storied history of destroying other religions and assimilating the parts they like and attributing it to the One True God. So storied that it's a major part of the bible, because when you look at even the old testament it's about destroying a thriving polytheism. It is fundamentally incompatible because Christianity is a destructive theology in practice.

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You literally had an example of how this isn't the case in your own post. The fact that Christianity/Platonism, and really monotheism more broadly, has tended to absorb other bodies of religious thought and practice doesn't mean it's not compatible with other bodies of thought in the abstract in fact it suggests that it very fundamentally is.

As an additional irony the example of Pure Land Buddhism in Japan that you're drawing on is just another example of the exact same thing happening with different names. Hell the way that even older Japanese religious practice has fused with Ainu practices is as well.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

You literally had an example of how this isn't the case in your own post. The fact that Christianity/Platonism, and really monotheism more broadly, has tended to absorb other bodies of religious thought and practice doesn't mean it's not compatible with other bodies of thought in the abstract in fact it suggests that it very fundamentally is.

As an additional irony the example of Pure Land Buddhism in Japan that you're drawing on is just another example of the exact same thing happening with different names. Hell the way that even older Japanese religious practice has fused with Ainu practices is as well.

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I believe I said that Christianity destroyed other religions and assimilated their corpses into itself. I did not, in fact, "Have an example of how this isn't the case".

Monotheist religions are by nature destructive to anything other than themselves.

 

[Cocaloch]

I believe I said that Christianity destroyed other religions and assimilated their corpses into itself. I did not, in fact, "Have an example of how this isn't the case".

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Oh okay then, well if you think that's really what happened then you're just totally wrong instead of merely using inconsistent logic so it's good we've got that cleared up. Christianity, also in no way a monolith, existed alongside and absorbed other strains of thought, just like Platonism essentially absorbed Jewish mythology and the cult of Christ to make Christianity. Acting like it destroyed other things and then picked random bits to add onto itself doesn't even make sense, why would that have happened?

Of course this still doesn't address the other half of that post, but I have a feeling you don't have much of an answer for it.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Oh okay then, well if you think that's really what happened then you're just totally wrong so it's good we've got that cleared up.

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Do you have to be a complete and total asshole who can't communicate without having to be snide and rude? It would be much easier to talk to you about this topic without haivng to deal with this shit. It really just gets me down and makes me not want to talk to you at all, no matter who has the right of it. Of course, you'll probably just see this as me "Running away" as opposed to me wanting to have a polite discussion among reasoned individuals about an interesting topic without having to deal with someone waving their metaphorical dick in my face and laughing. It's kind of exhausting and not very fun, you know?

 

[Quinton]

This has been a cool thread so far. I'm learning stuff. Thanks, folks. :)

 

[Cocaloch]

Do you have to be a complete and total asshole who can't communicate without having to be snide and rude? It would be much easier to talk to you about this topic without haivng to deal with this shit.

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You're going to have to walk me through how that was much of an escalation. Frankly, I think sweeping generalizations that fairly mindlessly essentialize some pretty negative things to something very important to a lot of people, including people on this website, is much ruder than being curt in response to baseless historical assertions. Especially since I wouldn't really call your rhetoric here particularly polite or anything. You aren't offering deep thoughtful analysis of religion based on study and an earnest desire to understand others. You haven't even addressed significant parts of what I've been saying, because it doesn't work well with your thesis.

I'd suggest growing a thicker skin if you want to talk about issues like this in the way that you are.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

You're going to have to walk me through how that was much of an escalation. Frankly, I think sweeping generalizations that fairly mindlessly essentialize some pretty negative things to something very important to a lot of people, including people on this website, is much ruder than being curt in response to baseless historical assertions. Especially since I wouldn't really call your rhetoric here particularly polite or anything. You aren't offering deep thoughtful analysis of religion based on study and an earnest desire to understand others.

I'd suggest growing a thicker skin if you want to talk about issues like this in the way you are.

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If you'd actually read the bible you wouldn't see anything about a peaceful religion trying to co-exist with other religions. You'd see a lot of damnation and murder of those who worship "False idols"(i.e: Polytheists). It's even the main thing that Israel's god curses them for, over and over again, and is often used as justification for their "Punishments"(Whenever something invariably doesn't go their way (often severely so) and they try to justify it based on them having done something wrong).

This fact shouldn't be controversial and it definitely isn't an example of coexistance as you claimed it to be.

 

[Cocaloch]

If you'd actually read the bible you wouldn't see anything about a peaceful religion trying to co-exist with other religions.

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I've read the bible, I'm not a Christian, and I didn't say it was a peaceful religion trying to co-exist with other religions. In fact I wouldn't say something like that being reifying an ideal type religion and then saying everything that we call by that name is that runs into some massive problems immediately.

This fact shouldn't be controversial and it definitely isn't an example of coexistance as you claimed it to be.

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That fact isn't the controversial one. Things we think of as part of Christianity have absolutely displaced other systems of thought, I never said otherwise, and the fact that you take me arguing against your essentialist assertion to be tantamount to saying that Christianity has always been in peaceful coexistance with everything else is core to your biggest issue with thinking about the topic.

We can't begin to even have a conversation until you stop shadow boxing and actually address what I'm saying.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

I've read the bible, I'm not a Christian, and I didn't say it was a peaceful religion trying to co-exist with other religions. In fact I wouldn't say something like that being reifying an ideal type religion and then saying everything that we call by that name is that runs into some massive problems immediately.

That fact isn't the controversial one. Christianity has absolutely displaced other systems of thought, I never said otherwise, and the fact that you take me arguing against your essentialist assertion to be tantamount to saying that Christianity has always been in peaceful coexistance with everything else is core to your biggest issue with thinking about the topic.

We can't begin to even have a conversation until you stop shadow boxing and actually address what I'm saying.

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Your argument is that Japan could have assimilated Christianity. My argument is that in every situation involving it, Christianity is the assimilating force, not the other way around. That's because the nature of the religion requires it to be dominant, for better or for worse. I pointed to how it is protrayed in it's holy book as an example, not as some form of "Shadow boxing" or whatever. It's just a good example of how the religion's narrative formulates and presents itself.

 

[Cocaloch]

Your argument is that Japan could have assimilated Christianity.

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Yes.

My argument is that in every situation involving it, Christianity is the assimilating force, not the other way around.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism_and_Christianity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

That's because the nature of the religion requires it to be dominant, for better or for worse.

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This is your core argument, but it's totally axiomatic. I don't think that's true. I'm not particularly inclined to believe in some dinge an sich "nature of the religion" in the first place, let alone buy at face value your assertion about what it would be for Christianity, and you aren't really arguing for it anyway you're just stating it.

I pointed to how it is protrayed in it's holy book as an example, not as some form of "Shadow boxing" or whatever.

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The shadowboxing was you arguing against things I didn't say and weren't implicit in what I was saying. I didn't call it a strawman because I think it's unintentional.

 

[entremet]

If we're speaking of East Asia, Christianity in China has been growing through underground house church networks. This is particularly interesting since it's not following that mode it did via governmental conquest.

Moreover, the religion is heavily regulated and under much scrunity by the government today.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Yes.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism_and_Christianity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam



This is your core argument, but it's totally axiomatic. I don't think that's true, I'm not particularly inclined to believe in some dinge an sich "nature of religion" in the first place, let alone buy at face value your assertion about what it would be for Christianity.



The shadowboxing was you arguing against things I didn't say and weren't implicit in what I was saying. I didn't call it a strawman because I think it's unintentional.

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Would you prefer I said "Monotheism" as opposed to christianity? Christianity is monotheist, but not all monotheist religions are christianity. What I said applies to many monotheist religions. Including Christianity, but not exclusive to it. To point to when differeing monotheist religions clash and one or the other wins is beside the point, though I suppose the point required some clarification. The topic of the subject in this case is Christianity vs non-monotheistic religions/belief systems, so monotheism vs monotheism is kind of a moot point.

The nature of the religion that I'm referring to is the ideal of "one god above all (and all the others are fake)". It's not "some dinge", it's the core tenant of the entire theology. It's an exclusive sentiment that offers no wiggle room, and all those who adhere to it have no place to slot in other belief systems unless they first assimilate it completely and warp it to that ideal.

 

[Cocaloch]

Would you prefer I said "Monotheism" as opposed to christianity? Christianity is monotheist, but not all monotheist religions are christianity. What I said applies to many monotheist religions. Including Christianity, but not exclusive to it. To point to when differeing monotheist religions clash and one or the other wins is beside the point, though I suppose the point required some clarification. The topic of the subject in this case is Christianity vs non-monotheistic religions/belief systems, so monotheism vs monotheism is kind of a moot point.

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To be frank I still don't really see how this is particularly relevant to whether or not Japan could have absorbed Christainity or become Christian. But this still isn't true anyway. I mean look at China which has had a sizable Islamic minority for a long time. How has that not brought down the system and made all of China monotheist now. There are many other examples of this. If you mean in places with monotheist dominated societies then look no further than Santaria and Voodoo or any of the extant systems of European magic that survived until they were displaced by secularism.

The nature of the religion that I'm referring to is the ideal of "one god above all (and all the others are fake)". It's not "some dinge", it's the core tenant of the entire theology. It's an exclusive sentiment that offers no wiggle room, and all those who adhere to it have no place to slot in other belief systems unless they first assimilate it completely and warp it to that ideal.

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No the dinge an sich you're suggesting is a Christianity (now apparently monothesism) in itself.

You're going to have to explain to me how the cult of Mary and really anything but Nontrinitarian sects of Christianity, which is to say a small minority, make sense then. I will accept that these religions do offer some fundamental axiomatic beliefs about the world that can make them uncompromising in situations (though Buddhism as an ideal type also does this). That's different than some big declaration about how they are these giant static concepts.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

To be frank I still don't really see how this is particularly relevant to whether or not Japan could have absorbed Christainity or become Christian. But this still isn't true anyway. I mean look at China which has had a sizable Islamic minority for a long time. How has that not brought down the system and made all of China monotheist now. There are many other examples of this. If you mean in places with monotheist dominated societies then look no further than Santaria and Voodoo or any of the extant systems of European magic that survived until they were displaced by secularism.

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So let me get this straight, your point is that because they aren't always sucsesfull (and don't always try to be), it isn't a part of the theology that makes it incompatible with other belief systems in practice? That "Our dude above your dude always and forever" doesn't prevent the beliefs existing within individuals at the same time nor lead to ideological conflict (not necessarily violent in nature, just a vague general "conflict") that prevents the beleif from proliferating to a meaningful degree in a polytheistic society? (That's how this relates to Japan.)

 

[Cocaloch]

So let me get this straight, your point is that because they aren't always sucsesfull (and don't always try to be), it isn't a part of the theology that makes it incompatible with other belief systems in practice?

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Not really, my point that was countering your specific assertion. Frankly I've been doing a lot of that only for what we're talking about to get shifted to something else. I think you should step back for a second and think about why there's clear historical counterpoints to most of your assertions. Even if your thesis is right, there's clearly something going wrong with how you're thinking since this has happened several times over the course of a short conversation.

I do happen to believe what you're saying there is true, but not for the reason you're suggesting.

That "Our dude above your dude always and forever" doesn't prevent the beliefs existing within individuals at the same time?

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If I'm parsing you, then yes. I do believe that belief in the Abrahamic God (you cite a specific example of this in your first post) and belief in things that aren't recognized to be part of mainstream thought in any of those religions is possible at the same time. For instance plenty of Germanic and Celtic peoples quite clearly believed in both some form of Christianity and what might be called Pagan for quite some time.

I'm not really seeing any sort of a backbone to an argument here though. It seems like you're mostly making varied assertions about Christianity being a certain way and therefore Japan was unable to assimilate aspects of it, but I'm not seeing how these assertions are connected.

 

[Menx64]

The are smarter than most in some aspects.

 

[SneerfulOwl]

Christianity is actually on the decline rapidly in Korea.

 

[S-Wind]

They took the one part of Christianity that they want, which is western Christian style weddings. Even those are often done as one of two ceremonies, the other being a traditional Japanese style ceremony. Japan takes what it wants from other cultures, and as a society don't seem very interested in a "one true god" style of religion.

Why not? No sects of Christianity have become widespread in Japan. And Christianity/Catholicism were used as a tool by western colonizers, and it's a big reason why Japan banned Christianity and closed itself off from western influence for a couple hundred years. They weren't very interested in the differences between various sects, they just wanted nothing to do with the religion as a whole.

As for post-WWII, they already have Shintoism and Buddhism combined and fully permeated throughout their society. Christianity doesn't integrate well with other religions, so converting would require cutting oneself off from one's cultural traditions.


I think South Korea was much more open to American influence on religion because Japan had recently tried stripping them of their own culture to make them more like Japan, so after Japanese occupation many were looking for something to fill that void and find a new identity.

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It's unfortunate that once they were free from one cultural imperialist they embraced a different cultural imperialist.

Christianity is actually on the decline rapidly in Korea.

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Great news!

 

[tears in my eyes]

Because monotheism is not compatible to Japanese culture, which believes in animism (literally 8 million gods out there)

 

[Sub Boss]

They aren't afraid of hell

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

They aren't afraid of hell

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Buddhism have like 18 levels of Hell, that's three times more than Inferno!

 

[josaka]

Christianity is actually on the decline rapidly in Korea.

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Is it being replaced with another religion or just people becoming more secular?

 

[Darksol]

Because monotheism is not compatible to Japanese culture, which believes in animism (literally 8 million gods out there)

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Almost nobody literally believes that. It's tradition and nothing else for nearly everyone. Just motions they go through. Japan is wonderfully secular.

I'm happy living here. Minus the occasional JW or Mormon hassling me at a station (the vast majority of which come from the US on a mission), it's great living life without people constantly throwing Jesus into the mix.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

They aren't afraid of hell

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I'm a million times more scared about non-existence, which I know is silly because you don't get to experience it, than some "hell" tbh.

But so is life as an atheist, accepting your mortality and temporal existence(probably) is quite liberating in a way.

 

[S-Wind]

I'm a million times more scared about non-existence, which I know is silly because you don't get to experience it, than some "hell" tbh.

But so is life as an atheist, accepting your mortality and temporal existence(probably) is quite liberating in a way.

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You were non-existent before you were born.

How scary was it?

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

You were non-existent before you were born.

How scary was it?

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I addressed that in my post.

 

[Dream Machine]

Is it being replaced with another religion or just people becoming more secular?

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Once you have idol culture, who needs religion?

 

[tears in my eyes]

Almost nobody literally believes that. It's tradition and nothing else for nearly everyone. Just motions they go through. Japan is wonderfully secular.

I'm happy living here. Minus the occasional JW or Mormon hassling me at a station (the vast majority of which come from the US on a mission), it's great living life without people constantly throwing Jesus into the mix.

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Sorry, but living there doesn't mean you understand their culture, folklores, etc. This rule applies everywhere in the world. Otherwise we wouldn't have this integration problem for the immigrants that plagues every western countries right now.

Hate to tell you, Its not land of Jesus/Allaah, but certainly not the atheist heaven you think it is either. Sure, like any developed country, its perfectly fine to be an atheist, but many people do believe the existence of Kamis, they didn't build those various shrines just for looking good.

 

[Darksol]

Sorry, but living there doesn't mean you understand their culture, folklores, etc. This rule applies everywhere in the world. Otherwise we wouldn't have this integration problem for the immigrants that plagues every western countries right now.

Hate to tell you, Its not land of Jesus/Allaah, but certainly not the atheist heaven you think it is either. Sure, like any developed country, its perfectly fine to be an atheist, but many people do believe the existence of Kamis, they didn't build those various shrines just for looking good.

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I mean, my students generally aren't religious, nor are my colleagues, friends or coworkers. Hell, a significant portion can't even tell the difference between a shrine and a temple.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because from where I'm standing, Japanese people take part in the traditions, pull a fortune now and then, and that's about the extent of it.

I would be surprised if the amount of people believing in animism of any sort was any higher than 5%. I've never met a single person here yet who literally believes in a whole host of gods inhabiting the trees, the moon, pottery, etc. I know they're out there but if I was a betting man, I'd say that most Japanese people do not literally believe in a god or gods and just say that they are Buddhist and/or Shinto when asked.