Why is Hideo Baba so hated among Tales fans?

[Comic Obsessed]

I'm a huge JRPG fan and therefore, I'm a huge Tales fan. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest are staples of the genre but I put the Tales series around the same category, I even enjoy the overly-anime direction that most entries in the series have and I've played most of the games from the last 3 Generations.

However, I've always wondered why there's so much vitriol about Hideo Baba, the Producer of a lot of them. I haven't been paying much attention about what happens behind the scenes and I understand some of the complaints that people have concerning the direction the series during the last couple of Gens (lack of budget being one of the biggest) but still, it seems like he's easily one of the most hated people working on JRPGs. Can someone explain the reasons behind?

 

[Delaney]

I'll never get personally hating a videogame director/producer. Hideo Baba did a lot of things right with the franchise and I know he was an active part on Namco giving it a second chance on the west with Graces f and the Xillia games.

During Zestiria's marketing and development cycle there were some questionable choices being made and some of them involved an specific female character not getting as much protagonism as hoped. People more involved in the issue might explain later in this thread why the fanbase got so mad over that. Since it's a fictional narrative that involves the producer falling in love with a VA for the game and then replacing the "original protagonist" with a new character made for that VA, I never took it seriously.

 

[Odesu]

Waifus, man. It's always about the Waifus.

The few times I've met Baba he was incredibly generous with his time, nice and pretty much a joy to be around. All while he had to tour the globe to promote a game.

 

[MechaX]

I can't speak for anything he's done outside of Tales, but Baba has gotten a not super great reputation because a lot of Tales games he produced had some pretty consistent issues from the audience's perspective.

Consistently underbaked third Acts was one issue, but a lot of Baba's titles didn't really seem to be as "finished" or "complete" as they could be. Vesperia's debacle with the PS3 version was one example (Patty is flat out referenced in the 360 version still). Xillia 1 just kind of stops (there may be an interview out there where he comments on this, not sure. My money would be that Xillia 1 went over time or over budget).

Everything definitely came to a head with Zestira though; definitely rushed, lots of behind the scenes drama with the Rose/Alicia thing coupled with a really bizarre unfolding of all of this in game, substantially weaker than past titles, etc. Zestiria may have called Baba's ability to actually produce these titles in a timely fashion into question.

And then you combine that with how Berseria feels like the first Tales game in awhile where it feels like it told and showed everything it wanted and needed to show, and that was one that Baba wasn't involved with.

 

[Deleted member 34949]

I've never understood the vitriol either, and this is coming from someone that dislikes most of the titles he produced.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I was under the impression that the true hate really came about with Zestiria.

Before that people were kinda annoyed with a couple of design choices but generally just rolled with it.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

I can't speak for anything he's done outside of Tales, but Baba has gotten a not super great reputation because a lot of Tales games he produced had some pretty consistent issues from the audience's perspective.

Consistently underbaked third Acts was one issue, but a lot of Baba's titles didn't really seem to be as "finished" or "complete" as they could be. Vesperia's debacle with the PS3 version was one example (Patty is flat out referenced in the 360 version still). Xillia 1 just kind of stops (there may be an interview out there where he comments on this, not sure. My money would be that Xillia 1 went over time or over budget).

Everything definitely came to a head with Zestira though; definitely rushed, lots of behind the scenes drama with the Rose/Alicia thing coupled with a really bizarre unfolding of all of this in game, substantially weaker than past titles, etc. Zestiria may have called Baba's ability to actually produce these titles in a timely fashion into question.

And then you combine that with how Berseria feels like the first Tales game in awhile where it feels like it told and showed everything it wanted and needed to show, and that was one that Baba wasn't involved with.

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Yeah, Xillia definitely had a problem of ambition not being fulfilled by both time and budget.

What was the problem with Rose/Alicia?

 

[Kresnik]

Yeah, Xillia definitely had a problem of ambition not being fulfilled by both time and budget.

What was the problem with Zestiria and Rose/Alicia?

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In Japan, Alicia was advertised as the main female protagonist. Then in game she just kind of disappears after a couple of hours and not for any particular reason, only to return as paid DLC later on. It rubbed people up the wrong way.

Personally I preferred Rose lol.

Anyway, OT, but I quite liked Baba's time with Tales. Xillia, Xillia 2 and Hearts R are three of my favourite entries and they've all got issues but at least they tried to do exciting things with their setting, plot and combat.

 

[lucablight]

Wasn't Hideo Baba responsible for making the Tales games a permanent fixture in the west? I remember there was a time when Takes fans wondered if certain titles would ever be localised.

 

[SaberVS7]

The Zestiria drama was just a load of Waifu Wars horseshit and I'd say is far more indicative of a problem with Japanese Gamers (particularly the Otaku NEETs who make up the most reliable demographic of game buyers since most normal people don't have time for console gaming) than it is of Hideo Baba's ability to produce games. There was some serious GamerGate levels of harassment directed towards Rose's seiyuu IIRC.

And with that it makes sense more and more why Namco wants Tales to grow internationally now. If it doesn't, they're stuck with a stagnant, shrinking NEET fandom in Japan that's batshit insane and throws temper-tantrums over waifus.

Absolutely disgraceful how Baba got swiftly unpersoned and thrown down the Memory Hole afterward. There's records in The Old Site of Namco 'Shopping him out of company photos on their website and his name being scrubbed from some credits online.

Anyone check if his name is still credited in Vesperia DE?

 

[Zafir]

I'm not sure. I don't like all of his titles, but even the ones that I don't care as much for I dunno if I blame it solely on him...

Yeah, Xillia definitely had a problem of ambition not being fulfilled by both time and budget.

What was the problem with Zestiria and Rose/Alicia?

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Alicia was used in the advertisements for the game as if she was the heroine. Rose on the other hand wasn't really shown until in a really late trailer and even then she wasn't really a focus.

However... In the game Alicia is only really a party member for the first section of the game(well and a DLC...), and the party literally can't get rid of her fast enough past that point to get Rose in. It's so bizarrely rushed that people were just like, lol what?

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Yeah, Xillia definitely had a problem of ambition not being fulfilled by both time and budget.

What was the problem with Zestiria and Rose/Alicia?

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Zestiria main gameplay problem is the confusing as hell item/skill management, playing Vesperia right now it's so much more straightforward. There are a couple other design choices but this is the main one that sticks out.

The Rose/Alicia debacle was basically Alicia was marketed as the main heroine but relatively early on in the game she stopped being part of the group and was seemingly replaced by Rose. People really didn't like the way it was handled.

 

[Claude Augario]

Zestiria did a real number on the fanbase, but there were a lot of grievances before then too.

 

[Normal]

Huh. He's hated by most Tales fans? I thought he only got hate for Zestiria by the Japanese fans that didn't get their waifu in the game and got some other character instead.

 

[Masagiwa]

he is?

 

[Comic Obsessed]

Oh, I get the issues with Zestiria as a game but I didn't pay much attention for the trailers. I guess changing what seemed to be the female protagonist support the idea that the game was rushed as a whole.

Is a shame because I really enjoy Zestiria's cast overall (much more than the overly-bland Xillia cast, ugh).

 

[SantaC]

He hasnt produced the best tales games

Hideo Baba producer:

• Tales of Innocence
• Tales of Destiny
• Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the new world
• Tales of Hearts
• Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology 2
• Tales of VS
• Tales of Graces F
• Tales of Xillia
• Tales of Xillia 2
• Tales of Zestiria

He has produced some good ones, but also some stinkers. He doesnt seem as involved in team symphonias games.

 

[MetalBoi]

The Zestiria drama was just a load of Waifu Wars horseshit and I'd say is far more indicative of a problem with Japanese Gamers (particularly the Otaku NEETs who make up the most reliable demographic of game buyers since most normal people don't have time for console gaming) than it is of Hideo Baba's ability to produce games. There was some serious GamerGate levels of harassment directed towards Rose's seiyuu IIRC.

And with that it makes sense more and more why Namco wants Tales to grow internationally now. If it doesn't, they're stuck with a stagnant, shrinking NEET fandom in Japan that's batshit insane and throws temper-tantrums over waifus.

Absolutely disgraceful how Baba got swiftly unpersoned and thrown down the Memory Hole afterward. There's records in The Old Site of Namco 'Shopping him out of company photos on their website and his name being scrubbed from some credits online.

Anyone check if his name is still credited in Vesperia DE?

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omg... I'm just realizing I'M NOT NORMAL!

 

[Arthands]

I think he made some rather stupid decisions, such as remaking for Tales of Hearts R for the Vita when Tales of Innocent R flopped 2 years prior, while doing nothing for the 3DS after Tales of the Abyss was proven to be a success.

 

[Dark_Castle]

In Japan, Alicia was advertised as the main female protagonist. Then in game she just kind of disappears after a couple of hours and not for any particular reason, only to return as paid DLC later on. It rubbed people up the wrong way.

Personally I preferred Rose lol.

Anyway, OT, but I quite liked Baba's time with Tales. Xillia, Xillia 2 and Hearts R are three of my favourite entries and they've all got issues but at least they tried to do exciting things with their setting, plot and combat.

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Sounds like Lunafreya from FFXV, except Luna's dlc was cancelled.

 

[Sabin]

Since Baba took over loot, dungeons and world design got considerable worse compared to previous entries.

 

[Kagekyo]

It's a very good franchise, but they need to put an upgrade to every aspect of their games. Last 'tales of' (Berseria), it felt as a ps2 game in some ways. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, for example, have beauty designs and you can stare their graphic style without worrying, even the combat system is way better than tales of.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

Speaking of which, I hope we eventually see a Zestiria remaster that fixes the issues with the original. I believe there's still potential for that entry.

It's a very good franchise, but they need to put an upgrade to every aspect of their games. Last 'tales of' (Berseria), it felt as a ps2 game in some ways. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, for example, have beauty designs and you can stare their graphic style without worrying, even the combat system is way better than tales of.

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FFXV wasn't even as good as Berseria despite of having like 10 times the budget.

 

[Pedro]

I'll say that I didn't pay attention to Zestiria's marketing, and I don't especially care about either Alisha or Rose, yet I didn't enjoy how Alisha was just disappeared in the game; it was a rough way of doing that.
Like other posters said above, though, the worst thing to me in it was how cumbersome it was to manage your equipment and skills, it was such an unnecessarily complex system.

---

As for the topic itself, I don't have anything specific against Baba since a game is made by more than one person, but the series had been growing stale to me and he happened to be the producer in the games that made me feel that way.
I can understand the sentiment, though not the intensity of it; the hate is overblown.

 

[Aters]

The Zestiria drama was just a load of Waifu Wars horseshit and I'd say is far more indicative of a problem with Japanese Gamers (particularly the Otaku NEETs who make up the most reliable demographic of game buyers since most normal people don't have time for console gaming) than it is of Hideo Baba's ability to produce games. There was some serious GamerGate levels of harassment directed towards Rose's seiyuu IIRC.

And with that it makes sense more and more why Namco wants Tales to grow internationally now. If it doesn't, they're stuck with a stagnant, shrinking NEET fandom in Japan that's batshit insane and throws temper-tantrums over waifus.

Click to shrink...

What? The game was falsely advertised. Imagine EA put the heroine in a DLC. Era would riot. There were overreaction, but fans were rightfully pissed. Tales franchise in general doesn't really have that big of a waifu problem. Hell I'd say half of Tales fans these days in Japan are female. Doesn't help that the game is dogshit in general either.

Sounds like Lunafreya from FFXV, except Luna's dlc was cancelled.

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It's not like Luna at all. You know Luna is not in the main party before the game came out.

 

[Kagekyo]

Speaking of which, I hope we eventually see a Zestiria remaster that fixes the issues with the original. I believe there's still potential for that entry.



FFXV wasn't even as good as Berseria despite of having like 10 times the budget.

Click to shrink...

Ye, I'm agree with that, FF XV was shameful, Berseria is one of my favourite games of this gen, Velvet is a wonderful character with an epic develop, but I mean, I'm referrying on general terms. The last DQ (for example) has a beauty graphic style, while Tales of lack of budget or what you say, keep them as a second category j-rpg's, without bad intention, that's why I say that they need an upgrade.

Despite of, I read that next 'Tales of' will use UE4, so I keep an eye on it.

 

[Lord Vatek]

I haven't played but yeah it sounds like this Alicia thing was just bad writing. Characters vanishing for no apparent reason never looks good.

 

[MechaX]

Sounds like Lunafreya from FFXV, except Luna's dlc was cancelled.

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Others have explained it, but it's not quite like Luna.

Luna in FFXV appears like more of a situation where the game was just so obviously rushed that they couldn't really figure out anything for her to actually do in the time they had.

The Alicia/Rose thing (and I'm just strictly speaking about how it unfolded in game), was a kind of bizarre situation like the game was in on some inside joke that the player was not. Alicia gets dumped pretty unceremoniously and Rose comes in, and the characters go through great lengths to constantly be like "man, Alicia couldn't do [x], but it's sooo great that Rose is here because she can do [x] way better! Rose is so awesome!" while I was personally like "I literally just met this character 30 minutes ago, at least show me why this character is so awesome and great as opposed to constantly beating me over the head with praises." It came across like the game, writer, or whatever, had some axe to grind against Alicia that I just was not in on

 

[blonded]

Because his games are hideous

Spoiler

I wanna die

 

[Zafir]

Others have explained it, but it's not quite like Luna.

Luna in FFXV appears like more of a situation where the game was just so obviously rushed that they couldn't really figure out anything for her to actually do in the time they had.

The Alicia/Rose thing (and I'm just strictly speaking about how it unfolded in game), was a kind of bizarre situation like the game was in on some inside joke that the player was not. Alicia gets dumped pretty unceremoniously and Rose comes in, and the characters go through great lengths to constantly be like "man, Alicia couldn't do [x], but it's sooo great that Rose is here because she can do [x] way better! Rose is so awesome!" while I was personally like "I literally just met this character 30 minutes ago, at least show me why this character is so awesome and great as opposed to constantly beating me over the head with praises." It came across like the game, writer, or whatever, had some axe to grind against Alicia that I just was not in on

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Yup, I agree. Especially since up until that point Rose was seen as a bit of a wildcard really, it's not like she was some hero or anything, she was an assassin.

The sad part for me personally is. I actually think Rose was the more interesting character. But man, the way the game handles her introduction into the party(and Alisha's exit) is just awful.

Edit: Actually if I'm being honest, I think the game in general does Rose a disservice, not just her introduction, there was quite a bit of wasted potential with her character from what I remember.

 

[TheNotoriousAFG]

The rapidly declining quality of titles after Vesperia coming to a head with Zestiria (which was universally disliked by fans) and then Berseria being a return to form while being the first entry Baba was NOT a part of probably did the trick.

 

[Deleted member 47318]

The rapidly declining quality of titles after Vesperia coming to a head with Zestiria (which was universally disliked by fans) and then Berseria being a return to form while being the first entry Baba was NOT a part of probably did the trick.

Click to shrink...

You are indeed correct.

 

[Cascadero]

Some of his Tales games are good. Berseria was pretty nice for a jrpg these days and hoping its successors continue down this positive path without Baba. Think his Tales games became too anime in general, making Tales lose whatever identity it had.

 

[Deleted member 35077]

Has anyone brought up the part were Rose's voice actor apologized to the fans, in a dogeza pose, lived in a a Tales talk show for taking Alicia's role in the story. This riled up fans of the series wondering why she had to do it and not Baba.

 

[massoluk]

I'm indifferent about Rose/Alisha thing. I'd like to know the thought process behind that decision though. So weird

 

[EVA UNIT 01]

Had no idea he was hated.
But he made one of my top 5 in hearts R

 

[Sandfox]

The Alicia thing wasn't just "waifu wars". BN lied about the character's role(there were even official sites and games treating her as the heroine) and even sold DLC costumes for her. The story then introduces a Mary Sue to replace her with the other party members constantly saying how much better she is. It was so bad that the anime had to change the story. After people got upset Baba lied and called it a "misunderstanding" and tried to put it on the fans. Also, they apparently made Rose's va dogeza to fans and apologize(though I don't know how true this is).

Baba gets hate because the series went downhill with the Xillia games clearly rushed and ToZ being one of the worst games in the series. It doesn't help that ToB is seen as the first good game in a long time.

Some of his Tales games are good. Berseria was pretty nice for a jrpg these days and hoping its successors continue down this positive path without Baba. Think his Tales games became too anime in general, making Tales lose whatever identity it had.

Click to shrink...

ToB is the first game without Baba.

 

[HiroTSK5]

The Alicia thing wasn't just "waifu wars". BN lied about the character's role(there were even official sites and games treating her as the heroine) and even sold DLC costumes for her. The story then introduces a Mary Sue to replace her with the other party members constantly saying how much better she is. It was so bad that the anime had to change the story. After people got upset Baba lied and called it a "misunderstanding" and tried to put it on the fans. Also, they apparently made Rose's va dogeza to fans and apologize(though I don't know how true this is).

Baba gets hate because the series went downhill with the Xillia games clearly rushed and ToZ being one of the worst games in the series. It doesn't help that ToB is seen as the first good game in a long time.


ToB is the first game without Baba.

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As far as endgame you can still buy weapons for her so she was clearly supposed to be in the game more.

On top of that there's paid post-game DLC that reintroduces Alicia, a gesture so blatant that when Fans called them out on it they made it free during the game's initial release.

 

[datschge]

Absolutely disgraceful how Baba got swiftly unpersoned and thrown down the Memory Hole afterward. There's records in The Old Site of Namco 'Shopping him out of company photos on their website and his name being scrubbed from some credits online.

Anyone check if his name is still credited in Vesperia DE?

Click to shrink...

He is. The whole of the original staff credits is still there unchanged, including him as brand manager.

 

[GKSilKamina]

I'll say that I didn't pay attention to Zestiria's marketing, and I don't especially care about either Alisha or Rose, yet I didn't enjoy how Alisha was just disappeared in the game; it was a rough way of doing that.

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It was so weird. For the early hours of the game, Alisha is the main driving force of the story. Sorey leaves his hokey little hometown to help her, and a lot of the early plot points deal with Alisha's struggles with her family/kingdom. Then she's very hastily ushered out of the party, practically does an "exit stage left" during her brief farewell scene, gets captured off camera or something, and is basically ignored for the remaining 95% of the game. And most of the time when she is mentioned? It's to talk shit about her because Rose is "so much better".

Not helping is that from that point the story switches from to the much more boring "THERE'S AN EVIL DARK LORD PERSON GO FIGHT THEM" plotline.

The rapidly declining quality of titles after Vesperia coming to a head with Zestiria (which was universally disliked by fans) and then Berseria being a return to form while being the first entry Baba was NOT a part of probably did the trick.

Click to shrink...

Very much this. I loved the Tales series when I played Eternia and Symphonia, and thought Vesperia was great as well. After that? One mediocre game after another turned it from a favorite franchise to one I still play out of curiosity, with Zestiria damn near making me swear off Tales forever. Gave Berseria a chance and was shocked by how solid it was.

 

[Iceternal]

All we hear is Hideo Baba !

Hideo Booboo !

Hideo Baba !

 

[Deleted member 30151]

I've met him during the Animagic in Bonn (Germany). He was a cool, relaxed dude who actually cared what the people in the West are thinking. I say it again, without him, Tales of would mostly have been a japan only thing after the flop Vesperia was during the Xbox 360 days.

On the other hand, the games that were created under his helm weren't the most popular ones. His ultimate downfall was the decision to cut out a waifu out of a game and made here playable in a very bad DLC. There was a pretty huge shitstorm in Japan when Tales of Zestiria was released. It's even bittersweet that the DLC was free for a period of time. Even if you don't own the game, it was possible to load it for free. Have to admit the Alicia-DLC was pure and utter crap with the exception of the very fe cutscenes, but it was free and you was able to play as your waifu.

I wish Hideo Baba the best of luck for his new project over at Square Enix.

 

[Tfritz]

The story then introduces a Mary Sue to replace her .

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i just want you to know that a female character being important to a game that was directed and written by men isn't actually what a Mary Sue is!!!

 

[Sandfox]

i just want you to know that a female character being important to a game that was directed and written by men isn't actually what a Mary Sue is!!!

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I'm calling her a Mary Sue because the game treats her as perfect and constantly tells us how much better she is, not because of her importance. The Tales series has plenty of important female characters, but I wouldn't call them Mary Sues.

 

[Aexact]

Dang, the drama around Alicia/Rose is what did it?

... I mean, I got significantly less interested in Zestiria when Alicia got ejected for Rose but didn't realize what a big deal it was. Also felt kinda weirded out by the low key shade thrown at Alicia when they were selling Rose as a "pure hearted assassin". Uh. Ok game. Maybe it was some sort of behind the scenes in joke as someone said but I'm not in on it!

Bummer. Wonder what happened there.

 

[Schopenhauer]

The guy basically drove the Tales franchise into the ground.

Felt like the quality slipped a little further with every entry starting with Graces.

 

[Inuhanyou]

he symbolized the stagnation of the franchise for a lot of people for years, especially with his unwillingness to consider other hardware platforms and such. Zestiria's terrible mishandling of things in a variety of ways just broke the camels back

 

[ChanceOwen]

I'd like to see some examples of dialogue where characters are talking about how much better Rose is than Alisha, because I don't remember these moments at all. Alisha was part of the political plot line in the game and left the party to spend most of the game doing things offscreen while Sorey and the party were busy doing magical Tales-typical stuff. Her role seemed similar to stuff like Flynn in Vesperia. I can understand being disappointed that she didn't have a longer role within the party, but it never came across to me as worth condemning the game. What did feel lacking from the game was that Tales-style mid or late game twist. Instead we got all the mythology perspective changing stuff in Berseria. The two games together are a great 1-2 punch.

 

[MrSaturn99]

What? The game was falsely advertised. Imagine EA put the heroine in a DLC. Era would riot. There were overreaction, but fans were rightfully pissed. Tales franchise in general doesn't really have that big of a waifu problem. Hell I'd say half of Tales fans these days in Japan are female. Doesn't help that the game is dogshit in general either.

Click to shrink...

The Alicia thing wasn't just "waifu wars". BN lied about the character's role(there were even official sites and games treating her as the heroine) and even sold DLC costumes for her. The story then introduces a Mary Sue to replace her with the other party members constantly saying how much better she is. It was so bad that the anime had to change the story. After people got upset Baba lied and called it a "misunderstanding" and tried to put it on the fans. Also, they apparently made Rose's va dogeza to fans and apologize(though I don't know how true this is).

Baba gets hate because the series went downhill with the Xillia games clearly rushed and ToZ being one of the worst games in the series. It doesn't help that ToB is seen as the first good game in a long time.


ToB is the first game without Baba.

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These are all pretty much my grievances, although I haven't played Berseria.

"Hate" would be a strong word from my perspective, but the Baba era brought Tales into a slump.

Has anyone brought up the part were Rose's voice actor apologized to the fans, in a dogeza pose, lived in a a Tales talk show for taking Alicia's role in the story. This riled up fans of the series wondering why she had to do it and not Baba.

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I've never heard of this, source?

Seems like a bit much -- that's hardly her fault.

 

[Cugel]

He hasnt produced the best tales games

Hideo Baba producer:

• Tales of Innocence
• Tales of Destiny
• Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the new world
• Tales of Hearts
• Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology 2
• Tales of VS
• Tales of Graces F
• Tales of Xillia
• Tales of Xillia 2
• Tales of Zestiria

He has produced some good ones, but also some stinkers. He doesnt seem as involved in team symphonias games.

Click to shrink...

So all the bad ones :(