Why is PS4 Pro (outside of Boost Mode) doing nothing for PS2 titles?

[Vashetti]

I've been playing the first Jak & Daxter game a little on PS4 Pro recently, and I'm dumbfounded as to why Sony still hasn't updated the PS2 emulator to provide higher resolution and enforced 16x AF when games are played on Pro consoles. The game looks acceptable, but running at 1024x448 (the same as base PS4) has me scratching my head. Why is the Pro's increased GPU grunt going to total waste here?

Bear in mind the PS3 HD collection had the games running at 1024x720, why can't the Pro boost the resolution from 1024x448 to 2048x896? Or even higher? Going by the poor selection of PS2 Classics, it's clear Sony doesn't want to put too many resources into PS2 support. But if backwards compatibility is to be a feature going forward, surely it makes sense to improve their emulator and enable actual Pro support? They added Boost Mode, and the ability to force supersampling, for Pro owners, so what gives?

Does anyone else have an opinion on PS2 games on Pro?

 

[Tuxedoassassin]

Because Sony doesn´t care about PS2 games on PS4.

Edit: As you said, maybe in the future they will update the emulator to run better on more powerful hardware (PS4 Pro, PS5) but who knows. I bought and played some of these games and while they were okay, the emulator has still ways to go.

 

[Rezsolution]

Sony are lazy af

 

[Eolz]

Because it's not actual BC.

 

[t26]

Because it's not actual BC.

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Sony already confirmed they are using PS2 emulation in PS4 for PS2 games.

 

[HockeyBird]

Because Sony doesn´t care about PS2 games on PS4.

Edit: As you said, maybe in the future they will update the emulator to run better on more powerful hardware (PS4 Pro, PS5) but who knows. I bought and played some of these games and while they were okay, the emulator has still ways to go.

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I decided to take a look at the selection on the PS Store and man, what a weird and random assortment of games. I can see why Sony wouldn't bother. There is so few titles that it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

 

[Blayde]

BC was clearly not on sonys mind designing the PS4. They either can't or would take far too much work to do much with it on PS4. Idk if Microsoft had the foresight or just got lucky their architecture is allowing for a fairly easy BC system with boosts to performance.

 

[Vashetti]

Because it's not actual BC.

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It very clearly is, the way the games boot, it comes up with 'Playstation 2', identically to how it did on native PS2 hardware, plus:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2015-hands-on-with-ps4-playstation2-emulation

 

[Gamesgbkiller]

They should've port the PS3 collection. The emulation is really bad.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

Because they don't need to, they already have 100million gamers.

 

[LewieP]

I decided to take a look at the selection on the PS Store and man, what a weird and random assortment of games. I can see why Sony wouldn't bother. There is so few titles that it just doesn't seem worth the effort.

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I wonder if the fact that a lot of their first party stuff was better in PS3 HD collections is why there's so little of Sony's first party lineup on there.

I would be really happy if EA access resulted in the likes of PS2 Burnout/SSX etc on PS4.

Generally BC stuff with Sony is frustrating. They do a lot of work to get things working in many cases, but it often feels like they don't support it as much as they could. I really hope BC with as much of the Playstation back catalogue is on the table with PS5, and that it's a good experience. Microsoft do a far better job on Xbox One, I'd love to see Sony follow their lead on that.

 

[cw_sasuke]

Sony are lazy af

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Because they dont offer something that they never promised ?
Resources are limited and those PS2 games arent a priority - they had PSV earlier this gen, PS Now and now PS VR to push next to PS4/PS5.

 

[DJGolfClap]

I get that a huge amount of PS4 players want New Games, but seeing as how varied and diverse and gigantic the PS2 library was, it's really disheartening to see this especially considering how the Xbox One is knocking this shit right out of the park.

 

[TheBeardedOne]

Why would they waste valuable time and resources on older games that won't bring in much of a return?

 

[cyrribrae]

Also emulation is hard. Witness MS and Xbox One X enhanced BC titles. These take a significant amount of work and technical expertise. I don't know if Sony is currently unwilling to invest here, unable to get it to work, or is simply saving up announcements for a next gen blow out. But I don't think Sony would turn it down if the solution were given to them lol.

 

[Unkindled]

Sony gives zero fucks about it's legacy . Just look at Playstation classic.

 

[mavericktopgun]

Tbh being able to play Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One games on Xbox One (X) is the best thing ever.
Too bad Sony can't offer that with PS2 and PS3 games.

 

[Vashetti]

Also emulation is hard. Witness MS and Xbox One X enhanced BC titles. These take a significant amount of work and technical expertise. I don't know if Sony is currently unwilling to invest here, unable to get it to work, or is simply saving up announcements for a next gen blow out. But I don't think Sony would turn it down if the solution were given to them lol.

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The PS2 emulator on PS4 is a one size fits all solution. Devs are welcome to patch their titles (as the Jak games have received some), but the emulator simply doubles the res on each axis for every game. So in the case of the Jak games, they ran at 512x224 on PS2 hardware, which the PS4 turns into 1024x448.

 

[bangai-o]

Because they dont offer something that they never promised ?

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Not promising something doesn't mean you are not being lazy. If I never promised to wash the dishes, does that mean I am off the hook?

 

[DJGolfClap]

Tbh being able to play Xbox, Xbox 360 and Xbox One games on Xbox One (X) is the best thing ever.
Too bad Sony can't offer that with PS2 and PS3 games.

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I can play KOTOR, Blue Dragon, and Nier: Automata on the same box and this value cannot be overstated

 

[mavericktopgun]

I can play KOTOR, Blue Dragon, and Nier: Automata on the same box and this value cannot be overstated

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Awesome. I played SSX 3, Burnout Revenge and Red Dead 2 on my Xbox One X today. If the next Xbox supports Xbox, Xbox360 and XboxOne games I buy one on Launch day.

 

[cyrribrae]

The PS2 emulator on PS4 is a one size fits all solution. Devs are welcome to patch their titles (as the Jak games have received some), but the emulator simply doubles the res on each axis for every game. So in the case of the Jak games, they ran at 512x224 on PS2 hardware, which the PS4 turns into 1024x448.

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Interesting. I'm not suggesting PS2 emulation is better or even comparable to the 360 emulation, I'm just saying that it's possible for Sony to get there in the future. Optimistically, they're saving the big reveal for the PS5 reveal. I don't think it's likely that Sony has figured it out to the degree Microsoft has (also a one-size-fits-all solution wherein devs don't have to patch their titles), but hey silence is a vacuum that attracts wishful thinking. lol

 

[JaseC64]

I've been wanting to make a thread on this, thank you.

Just Sony being lazy. Ms on the other hand is using it's extra juice to make improvements on their 360 catalog. For Sony to not even do anything on ps2 classics on ps4 is quite frankly embarrassing.

 

[entremet]

They're number one and will most likely retain that next generation. Don't don't have to care.

Interesting. I'm not suggesting PS2 emulation is better or even comparable to the 360 emulation, I'm just saying that it's possible for Sony to get there in the future. Optimistically, they're saving the big reveal for the PS5 reveal. I don't think it's likely that Sony has figured it out to the degree Microsoft has (also a one-size-fits-all solution wherein devs don't have to patch their titles), but hey silence is a vacuum that attracts wishful thinking. lol

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With the PS2 Classics and PSOne Classic you could say the lost the benefit of the doubt. They simply don't care.

 

[Locust Star]

because PS2 on PS4 Classics was such a half-assed initiative

 

[Fafalada]

why can't the Pro boost the resolution from 1024x448 to 2048x896? Or even higher?

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I don't think it's a question of what the hardware 'can' do obviously.
Somewhere between 4x-8x (2560x1800-5120x3600) we'd probably start noticing geometry precision issues (inherent to the way PS2 worked I mean) - but even that can 'technically' be worked around by the emulator if you're willing to put up with added complexity (similar to how PS1 emulators eventually hacked around the perspective correction).

Does anyone else have an opinion on PS2 games on Pro?

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When Pro launched - all PS2 classics I owned (10 or so) received patches within a few week window, which initially got me excited we'd see Pro-specific uprez - but whatever happened, that wasn't the case in the end. If I had to guess, the way these things usually work in corporations of this size, the organization just doesn't see the effort as a priority :/

the emulator simply doubles the res on each axis for every game.

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Yes but there's nothing stopping the emulator to switch to a different profile on Pro hardware. The elegance behind the approach they implemented is that it's actually 100% backwards compatible regardless of the number of additional samples rendered, unlike the usual brute-forcing emulators(and XBox BC) use for uprez.

 

[Fastidioso]

Xbox family has a better emulation because they have to. Outside the more power, what else can differentiate the MS offer to the sony platform? Backward. It's not matter to be lazy or more generous. It's just a business strategy. Backward on PlayStation platform sucks probably for costs reason; a serious investment could not guarantee a proper revenue for sony. MS indeed can bet to lose more money compare to Sony, I suspect. However looking to the ps5 rumours and thanks finally to a decent cpu, I suspect next generation Sony could deliver a better emulation with the minimum effort.

 

[DrainedSpirit]

They just don't care.

 

[GarthLordOfTheSith]

Because Sony doesn't give half a shit about PS2 games anymore. Also that HD collection of Jak on OS3 was buggy and missing effects soooo

 

[JigsawPSN]

because PS2 on PS4 Classics was such a half-assed initiative

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indeed. they should have removed the trophy requirement and just let users download their ps2 classics they already bought on ps3

for fucks sake sony you have persona 3 and 4 sitting right there on the store

I can play KOTOR, Blue Dragon, and Nier: Automata on the same box and this value cannot be overstated

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can this box also play vice city, journey and sekiro

 

[DukeBlueBall]

BC was clearly not on sonys mind designing the PS4. They either can't or would take far too much work to do much with it on PS4. Idk if Microsoft had the foresight or just got lucky their architecture is allowing for a fairly easy BC system with boosts to performance.

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There is silicon baked into the Xb1 and Xb1x to enable BC. They couldn't get the software ready for launch.

 

[smurfx]

wish gta 3 didn't play like crap.

 

[dom]

I've been playing the first Jak & Daxter game a little on PS4 Pro recently, and I'm dumbfounded as to why Sony still hasn't updated the PS2 emulator to provide higher resolution and enforced 16x AF when games are played on Pro consoles. The game looks acceptable, but running at 1024x448 (the same as base PS4) has me scratching my head. Why is the Pro's increased GPU grunt going to total waste here?

Bear in mind the PS3 HD collection had the games running at 1024x720, why can't the Pro boost the resolution from 1024x448 to 2048x896? Or even higher? Going by the poor selection of PS2 Classics, it's clear Sony doesn't want to put too many resources into PS2 support. But if backwards compatibility is to be a feature going forward, surely it makes sense to improve their emulator and enable actual Pro support? They added Boost Mode, and the ability to force supersampling, for Pro owners, so what gives?

Does anyone else have an opinion on PS2 games on Pro?

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That resolution is only for Jak collection of games as they originally ran at a much lower res than most PS2 games. The PS2 games run at double the res, so most are running at 1292×896.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/11/the-ps4-can-now-emulate-playstation-2-games/

As far as boost mode helping, it would only help with framerates. As the PS2 emulator isn't told to take full advantage of the Pro hardware.

 

[Deleted member 6730]

Because Sony doesn´t care about PS2 games on PS4.

Edit: As you said, maybe in the future they will update the emulator to run better on more powerful hardware (PS4 Pro, PS5) but who knows. I bought and played some of these games and while they were okay, the emulator has still ways to go.

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Because no one bought them.

 

[TaySan]

Sony doesn't really care about it's legacy titles and it's up to the individual developers to update their games for Pro support.

 

[Hardvlade]

can this box also play vice city, journey and sekiro

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?

Sekiro is on Xbox

OT: I wish they would do something with it, it would be awesome to play some of the old classics with a nice bump in resolution

 

[Expy]

Because it's PS4 Pro, not PS2 Pro.

 

[TAJ]

Because no one bought them.

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I didn't buy them because they weren't even 1080p.

 

[Deleted member 30681]

I mean, your talking about the company who hasn't given 2 fucks about the PS2 on PS4 program since when? the release of the Jak games?

Damn shame too because there are tons of PS2 games that should be more available to the public. Especially for RPGs, the platform is incredible for it's library and Sony doesn't give a fuck.

 

[Deleted member 3010]

Because Sony doesn't give a shit about anything that's not current gen.

See: Playstation Classic, absence of PS1 games on PS4.

Hope they show more care on PS5, being PS4 compatible is a good start.

 

[Wulfer]

Easy, Sony feels it doesn't have too!

 

[corn_fest]

The complete abandonment of the PS2-on-PS4 initiative is suspicious, I think. There's a lot of PS2 nostalgia they're not capitalizing on, and I'm sure Sony knows it.
Perhaps leading up to a bigger BC push next gen?

 

[Kage Maru]

I've been saying this for a while now. I wish they would drop the trophy requirement and update the emulator to render higher resolutions on the Pro.

The PS2 emulator on PS4 is a one size fits all solution. Devs are welcome to patch their titles (as the Jak games have received some), but the emulator simply doubles the res on each axis for every game. So in the case of the Jak games, they ran at 512x224 on PS2 hardware, which the PS4 turns into 1024x448.

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Doesn't Sony's BC team control all updates over the emulator and not the game developers?

Yes but there's nothing stopping the emulator to switch to a different profile on Pro hardware. The elegance behind the approach they implemented is that it's actually 100% backwards compatible regardless of the number of additional samples rendered, unlike the usual brute-forcing emulators(and XBox BC) use for uprez.

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This is interesting. Can you share anymore details? Do you mean the emulator supports all games?

Xbox family has a better emulation because they have to. Outside the more power, what else can differentiate the MS offer to the sony platform? Backward. It's not matter to be lazy or more generous. It's just a business strategy. Backward on PlayStation platform sucks probably for costs reason; a serious investment could not guarantee a proper revenue for sony. MS indeed can bet to lose more money compare to Sony, I suspect. However looking to the ps5 rumours and thanks finally to a decent cpu, I suspect next generation Sony could deliver a better emulation with the minimum effort.

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I'm getting really sick of you guys excusing every shortcoming as a "business strategy". If there's something a platform owner can do to make things better for us gamers (don't care if it's MS with games, Sony with services/features, or whatever), they don't need people making excuses.

 

[ApeEscaper]

Only way to know make journalists ask Mark Cerny next time they meet him for PS5 :p

 

[Prine]

BC was clearly not on sonys mind designing the PS4. They either can't or would take far too much work to do much with it on PS4. Idk if Microsoft had the foresight or just got lucky their architecture is allowing for a fairly easy BC system with boosts to performance.

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Foresight. Hardware embedded into X1 that contributes to its BC.

 

[gsab1]

I would rather just have ps2 classic from ps3 playable on the PS4 honestly. With the library being the way it is because of trophies. Asking for anything beyond the bare minimum is a monkeys paw at this point.

 

[Kapryov]

Sony got greedy believing they could get people to buy their games all over again if they made up some excuse about every game needing goddamn trophies now.
Unfortunately the whole BC solution was half-baked, poorly implemented (that forced 50Hz), and apparently going back and adding trophies to past games is a pain in the ass for developers so nobody wanted to do it. The low sales were the nail in the coffin and it's like it never happened.

It's really unfortunate, I was hyped when the first Star Wars games were revealed.

 

[BlackLagoon]

I would rather just have ps2 classic from ps3 playable on the PS4 honestly. With the library being the way it is because of trophies. Asking for anything beyond the bare minimum is a monkeys paw at this point.

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There are several games that got PS3 releases that simply won't run on the PS4 emulator, like the two GTA "Stories" games for example, and even more that play ok but have graphical glitches. Trophies or not, even games that appear to work would all need extensive testing before they could be officially released on the PS4 store. And I'm guessing neither Sony or the game publishers think the potential sales will be worth it.

Sony got greedy believing they could get people to buy their games all over again if they made up some excuse about every game needing goddamn trophies now.
Unfortunately the whole BC solution was half-baked, poorly implemented (that forced 50Hz), and apparently going back and adding trophies to past games is a pain in the ass for developers so nobody wanted to do it. The low sales were the nail in the coffin and it's like it never happened.

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Sony was adding the trophies, not the publisher/developer. And nobody was forcing them to do these elaborate trophy lists. If it really was such a pain, they could have made them super basic like Hamster does with their Arcade Archives releases. "Open the Options Menu." "Start a New Game." etc. This whole thing about blaming trophies for the stagnation of the PS2 on PS4 program is nonsense.

 

[gsab1]

There are several games that got PS3 releases that simply won't run on the PS4 emulator, like the two GTA "Stories" games for example. Trophies or not, even games that appear to work would all need extensive testing before they could be officially released on the PS4 store. And I'm guessing neither Sony or the game publishers think the potential sales will be worth it.

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I apologise, I assumed that with ps2 classics being software emulated the process would be simple to enable on the PS4 if they were on the ps3.

 

[Kapryov]

Sony was adding the trophies, not the publisher/developer. And nobody was forcing them to do these elaborate trophy lists. If it really was such a pain, they could have made them super basic like Hamster does with their Arcade Archives releases. "Open the Options Menu." "Start a New Game." etc. This whole thing about blaming trophies for the stagnation of the PS2 on PS4 program is nonsense.

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Fair enough, my memories are tainted over the years of disappointment. The trophies they chose were still a pain in the ass to implement.
They were unnecessarily adding an extra 2-3 months of effort to each release

From here (edit: I don't recall where I saw the "sony forces trophies for all PS4 games" though)

But making older games work on newer technology is not an easy task, says Lindquist. He revealed that even the simplest sounding trophies can be hard to program for and just deciding the trophy list takes around 1-2 weeks. But the actual programming takes a month, not to mention testing and QA analysis which takes another 1-2 months depending on the length of the game. Overall, we are looking at 2-3 months just to implement trophies in the emulated game! But which games has so far proven to be more challenging than the others? Lindquist revealed that one of the games was Dark Cloud given the complex calculations they had to do in order to implement it. Mark of Kri's Complete a level without dying was a trophy that was lot harder to implement too, says Tim.

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