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Why is SSD in PS5 made to look like a game changer? PC’s have had it for decade and it hasn’t made that much difference?

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,992
The CPU power increase isn't going to change games as much as people think. It's basically going to drive those lower load times, manage more shit AI code because it's the developers faults that we have bad AI, which is why Fear from last generation still has some of the most convincing AI of any game released.

Deep learning AI via cloud services will probably have a bigger impact on games than the CPU.

SSDs are great for load times, but was N64's no load times a game changer vs Playstation?

What PS5 allows is for more actors on scene with unique AI, so open world games can feel less empty. It can also be used for frame rates above 60 and driving graphics of bigger areas.

Until they show us new stuff the cpu and SSD can do for the actual games, it's just more load times, more actors.
They already show the SSD would allow you to go faster in the spidey demo since they will be able to load the world faster .
That is something you can expect from next gen in open world games.
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
2,913
Do you think the general public cares about this? Also, the only people that care about this are the ultra tech savvy people. Aka not many people to use the whole marketing argument.
Not in the sense that people are sitting around thinking "I need and SSD" when they don't know what it is. But people want to be thrilled and excited by cool new technology so if sony is like "YO WE GOT THE HOT NEW TECH! SSDs!!! SPACE AGE SHIT!"

The average person with no idea will say "oh shit, space age shit I'm in!"
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,811
Sony is claiming the PS5's SSD is going to be faster than anything currently available in PCs, including those new NVMe drives.
 

BradGrenz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,107
Being able to design games and game engines around a guaranteed high bandwidth SSD will be a paradigm shift. Of course software that does not assume this baseline will not display the full potential of these gains. A custom or PCIe 4.0 SSD with 4+ GB/s of bandwidth will never be more than 3 seconds away from completely refilling accessible RAM. Forget using SSD as a buffer or cache. That's a total non-starter. You don't need to "stage" data when that won't be any faster than reading directly from the install location.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,685
Sony is claiming the PS5's SSD is going to be faster than anything currently available in PCs, including those new NVMe drives.
It'll probably make use of more pcie lanes or something that PC doesn't do. Consoles are like PCs but they are their own things. From using EDram to solve a problem, to using GDDR5 for system memory. I look forward to seeing things after the dust settles. Maybe PCIe 4 NVME SSDs will be useful for some future PC games, if they aren't redesigned when they hit PC to compensate for HDD PC users.
 

reKon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,559
What an ignorant thread title and and thread overall. There's well documented proof that most PC gamers in this very thread can attest to and there's still an argument about the impact? Having SSD as a baseline will certainly alter certain approaches to game design.

Also, any time I've upgraded any kind of device to an SSD from HDD - it has by far been the biggest upgraded for me and I could never go back.
 

GhostofWar

Member
Apr 5, 2019
79
I'm expecting that to have read speeds around 16GB/s, which would be enough to fill the system's RAM in 1 second.
16GB/s sounds like a lot, but it would be quite modest for a 16-lane PCIe 4.0 drive when you consider that 4-lane drives are currently reaching speeds of 5GB/s and theoretically should be able to reach 7GB/s.
It would actually be a lower-end drive per-lane, but makes up for it by using many of them.
So what nand exactly are sony using for this magical performance? Cheap nvme drives don't even saturate a 4 lane pci bus.
 
Oct 26, 2017
4,803
Not in the sense that people are sitting around thinking "I need and SSD" when they don't know what it is. But people want to be thrilled and excited by cool new technology so if sony is like "YO WE GOT THE HOT NEW TECH! SSDs!!! SPACE AGE SHIT!"

The average person with no idea will say "oh shit, space age shit I'm in!"
I think you greatly overestimate how much the general public think or care about parts like SSDs. This is purely anecdotal, but I remember explaining to people that their MacBooks were fast because the SSDs significantly cut down on loading time relative to MacBooks with a traditional HDD. They all told me that they thought their MacBooks were fast simply because it's a MacBook/Apple product.
 

Net_Wrecker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,952
I think you greatly overestimate how much the general public think or care about parts like SSDs. This is purely anecdotal, but I remember explaining to people that their MacBooks were fast because the SSDs significantly cut down on loading time relative to MacBooks with a traditional HDD. They all told me that they thought their MacBooks were fast simply because it's a MacBook/Apple product.
This is what the Scarlett/PS5 reveals will be for. Once they show app hopping, UI speed, fast travel, realtime jump cuts, and those 1st year next-gen exclusives, people will understand. Console players know the pain of waiting for Destiny strikes to load, or a post-death loading screen in their Soulslike of choice.
 

RvinP

Member
Oct 28, 2017
399
I still have one of the earliest 120GB SSD and it is still faster than my latest HDD in terms of loading up games.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,705
They already show the SSD would allow you to go faster in the spidey demo since they will be able to load the world faster .
That is something you can expect from next gen in open world games.
Ever been in a rocket car in GTA5? Open world games don't have that limitation, that was just unique to the ps4's Spiderman and didn't need new hardware to solve, but different coding. Unless I'm not understanding your example.
 

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
383
Oslo, Norway
So what nand exactly are sony using for this magical performance? Cheap nvme drives don't even saturate a 4 lane pci bus.
The real performance benefit comes from sequential reads and Sony (and Microsoft if they choose to use PCIe 4), being a platform holder, is in a unique position to provide tools so game devs can package their games in a way that uses this high sequential read performance. Any regular PC with PCIe 4 drives will always be restricted by random access reads which is significantly slower than sequential reads. Typical sequential read speeds can, with the current limited available PCIe 4.0 disk controllers, go up to 5 GB/s, but random access is far lower.
 

Jolkien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,117
Someone need to install Windows on a regular HDD instead of an SSD or NVME and see how ''little'' it has changed things.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,811
They can claim whatever they want, Optane memory will be in another league most probably. I don't know why they make such claims, to be honest.
Yeah the operative term there has always been "what is currently available on PC", not "what will be available on PC by the time PS5 launches".
 

GhostofWar

Member
Apr 5, 2019
79
The real performance benefit comes from sequential reads and Sony (and Microsoft if they choose to use PCIe 4), being a platform holder, is in a unique position to provide tools so game devs can package their games in a way that uses this high sequential read performance. Any regular PC with PCIe 4 drives will always be restricted by random access reads which is significantly slower than sequential reads. Typical sequential read speeds can, with the current limited available PCIe 4.0 disk controllers, go up to 5 GB/s, but random access is far lower.
Yeh cause pc ssd controllers are obviously designed to spew the data randomly all over the drive. Also I was replying to a post talking about 16GB/s read speeds. Sony should go into making enterprise storage solutions they will make a killing.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,705
Someone need to install Windows on a regular HDD instead of an SSD or NVME and see how ''little'' it has changed things.
The answer is it changed responsiveness and load times, but has not made any difference to a game once it is loaded. We are talking about gaming devices. Seriously, this other stuff is stuff we've already experienced in the N64 and other older cartridge based systems.
 

c0de

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,004
Yeah the operative term there has always been "what is currently available on PC", not "what will be available on PC by the time PS5 launches".
Optane is already available, though. I get that they customize their SSD and I guess there will be a corner case where they actually have a slight advantage to whatever metric they then use but I think it will still be misleading in the end.
 

chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
Load times has been an often stated reason when I hear about console players jumping to PC in the last 7-8 years. Could even be better than PCs now.
 
OP
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mogster7777

mogster7777

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,338
I have a .m2 Samsung SSD and Windows 10 it defiantly loads faster. It still takes about 20-30 seconds as it loads all the apps though like malware bytes and various other stuff I have installed but I guess that’s pretty impressive right for an OS like Windows 10?
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,463
New Jersey
a lot of people in here drinking that marketing kool aid.
the only way you could think SSD's being standardized in the next gen is "marketing' is believing that developers dont use consoles as a baseline for the minimum industry standard, and that with each generation, the baseline is pushed up due to that.

We know that this is the case, so there is LITERALLY no reason to believe what you just posted.

I have no idea how many ignorant posts are made despite developers literally saying as much.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,903
Like it’s not exactly instant gaming on PC with the SSD’s of today even like the m2’s.
There are a ton of factors at play but SSDs definitely make a difference. It’s just that improvements are variable on a case by case basis.

But even on the old Xbox One, plugging an external SSD could net you a 30% load time reduction on many games.
 

W17LY

Member
Aug 29, 2018
144
Ever been in a rocket car in GTA5? Open world games don't have that limitation, that was just unique to the ps4's Spiderman and didn't need new hardware to solve, but different coding. Unless I'm not understanding your example.
Marvel's Spiderman limited Spiderman's swinging speed due to the possibility to use a slower than default HDD on PS4. That's well explained in a GDC vault conference about the game.
 

Jolkien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,117
The answer is it changed responsiveness and load times, but has not made any difference to a game once it is loaded. We are talking about gaming devices. Seriously, this other stuff is stuff we've already experienced in the N64 and other older cartridge based systems.
It greatly reduced texture pop in in open world game due to asset streaming faster.
 

SlickVic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
776
USA
From my experience I feel SSD reduce the average game load time quite significantly. When I switch from playing a game on my PC to one on the console, it's always noticeable how much longer load times feel on a console with a standard HDD in place. Sure, there are other factors at play (like different hardware), but even when I was running games off an older laptop from 2014 with an SSD, it was still impressive how much quicker load times were. And the less time I have to spend waiting to play a game the better.
I do think one smart thing consoles have done to combat load times is 'rest mode', since that typically allows you skip that long initial load for a game. Still, I'm happy to see the PS5 bring SSD's to the console mainstream.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
2,845
Probably already mentioned, but even on PC games aren't made with SSD specs in mind. So even with an SSD on your machine, games aren't taking full advantage of it, but still... Even on PC with current games, having an SSD is a game changer for a lot of games, but especially for OS side stuff.
 

Napalm_Frank

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,200
Finland
Comparing loading times between my PS4 and PC, I would def call it a game changer even outside of any potential game design possibilities in the future.

If the loading times are even "just" cut in half I'll be a happy man. So much dead time just for example playing CTR and waiting for a match to load over and over again.
 

Darknight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,719
Anyone who thinks SSDs won't impact how games are designed needs to watch this about Spider-Man:


I've skipped it ahead to the point where they talk about the data budget they set themselves to for streaming content in and at one point he explicitly points out how they have to factor in that people can replace their PS4 HDD so they have to account for poor quality HDDs being slower than the stock HDD that comes in the system which in turn impacts the budget for the amount of data they know they have to guarantee to be able to stream in to fill out the world at any given time.
 

DvdGzz

Member
Mar 21, 2018
1,158
I imagine RTX and load times will be a huge reason why next-gen will be adopted by gamers in droves compared to previous gens. Even casuals will see comparisons and have to make the upgrade.
 

rickyson33

Member
Nov 23, 2017
709
am I the only one that is surprised that the "pro" consoles don't have an ssd in them?

as someone that doesn't pay much attention to playstation/xbox stuff I kinda just assumed that a console revision released in 2016/17 would have one I guess
 

Mitchman1411

Member
Jul 28, 2018
383
Oslo, Norway
Yeh cause pc ssd controllers are obviously designed to spew the data randomly all over the drive. Also I was replying to a post talking about 16GB/s read speeds. Sony should go into making enterprise storage solutions they will make a killing.
Btw, Sony are already into that business :)
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,501
Barcelona Spain
We know the console will have a SSD, but will it also have a HDD on top of that? A SSD is already expensive enough as it is, so it probably won't be a very big one (~250 GB is my guess). And knowing how people on here hate having to empty their fridge and swear by keeping every single game they own installed at all times, you'll be lucky if you can manage to hold more than 2 to 5 games on that SSD at any given time. I can't imagine them also including a HDD to hold the leftover games (which will also need time to move over to the SSD whenever you want to play them, by the way). I assume most everyone will need to purchase an external HDD for that purpose? How do people feel about it?
1 Tb Nvme SSD are available for 100 dollars at retail it means for Sony and MS it will cost maybe 40 to 50 dollars to have an SSD inside the console
 

freeradical

Member
Oct 27, 2017
410
When you know there is definitely an SSD you can design the game, and the layout of data, with that in mind.

Also going from an HDD to SSD in a PC was huge, especially for the OS.

Also having the bandwidth to then use that transfer speed will be important.
I would like to thank this member for this clear and understandable post.

And going by your tag, i certainly thank you for that!
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,564
1 Tb Nvme SSD are available for 100 dollars at retail it means for Sony and MS it will cost maybe 40 to 50 dollars to have an SSD inside the console


1TB Nvme SSDs aren't available for that price. Maybe on sale and for a smaller price. Good 1TB PCIE3.0 4x SSDs reaching over 3go/s for read/write are at 140-150 dollars, sometimes more. And I'm not even talking avout PCIE4.0 ones.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,824
Install base is why.

Some years ago Intel tried to promote SSDs as a game-changer for game design, sponsored research and sessions at GDC etc showcasing some technical possibilities of what you could do if you designed around and could depend on SSD speeds.

But the install base wasn't there to support that proposition. Devs want to support the range of targets out there, or to keep the option of portability open, and that included targets with regular HDDs.

With consoles adopting SSDs as standard, there's the hope that maybe we can move the bar up to that level, as a base level for a new generation of games. Not every game - not cross gen games - obviously, but it's plausible now that 'next-gen' games can start building around that baseline. And so, some of those ideas may make it from research to product.

On a lower level, within a console, or PS5 context specifically, Sony has made a little noise over their solution being better than then-available PC parts, or being better or more performance-reliable due to a custom part and/or custom hardware stack. If devs can get certain hard guarantees about IO performance out of a system like that, vs a range of SSDs or HDDs, it might tip over some interesting techniques into the range of the possible. Things that maybe hark back to an era of cartridges in terms of RAM vs ROM memory juggling.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,501
Barcelona Spain
1TB Nvme SSDs aren't available for that price. Maybe on sale and for a smaller price. Good 1TB PCIE3.0 4x SSDs reaching over 3go/s for read/write are at 140-150 dollars, sometimes more. And I'm not even talking avout PCIE4.0 ones.


95,99 dollars and this is standard SSD, I don't think the NAND Flash will be somethig special on Sony SSD but everything out of the NAND Flash itselft will be custom out of mabe the bus.

for PCIE 4 there is a premium price but this is just a bus I doubt with the 15 to 20 millions per year order for the next 6 years Sony will paid as much and this is if they use PCIE 4. In the patent they never talk about the bus maybe something custom.
 
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Polk

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
875
1TB Nvme SSDs aren't available for that price. Maybe on sale and for a smaller price. Good 1TB PCIE3.0 4x SSDs reaching over 3go/s for read/write are at 140-150 dollars, sometimes more. And I'm not even talking avout PCIE4.0 ones.
Sure Crucial P1 isn't very fast (still 3x faster than any SATA SSD) and you can buy it for $95,99) right now. You won't get your 970 evo or WD Black on your next gen consoles.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,564

95,99 dollars and this is standard SSD, I don't think the NAND Flash will be somethig special on Sony SSD but everything out of the NAND Flash itselft will be custom out of mabe the bus.

for PCIE 4 there is a premium price but this is just a bus I doub with the 15 to 20 millions per year order for the next 6 years Sony will paid as much and this is if they use PCIE 4. In the patent they never talk about the bus maybe something custom.

Look at the read/write speeds and you'll see my point.
 

GhostofWar

Member
Apr 5, 2019
79

95,99 dollars and this is standard SSD, I don't think the NAND Flash will be somethig special on Sony SSD but everything out of the NAND Flash itselft will be custom out of mabe the bus.

for PCIE 4 there is a premium price but this is just a bus I doub with the 15 to 20 millions per year order for the next 6 years Sony will paid as much and this is if they use PCIE 4. In the patent they never talk about the bus maybe something custom.
that ssd you linked can only do 2GB/sec seq read.