Why is SSD in PS5 made to look like a game changer? PC’s have had it for decade and it hasn’t made that much difference?

Oct 30, 2017
636
Canada
M2 is just a form factor. There are M2 SATA drive which have the same 6 Gbps bandwidth limit of regular 3.5" SATA drive. Then there are M2 PCIe (also known as NVMe) which are the current top of the line when it comes to performance. My guess is that PS5 will use a NVMe drive, probably the new PCIe 4 spec.
I was talking about M2 PCIE, as that’s the perfect form factor and heat imprint for a console. It would be bizarre of them—or anyone in 2020–to use an M2 with a sata connection.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
As if the ps4 had to stream as much information/data in Wipedout compared to Spider-Man...
If you say so. lol



Ofc it was, the visuals and designs on both games are completely different.
Obviously the design of the games are different. Wipeout is running at 60fps as well.

Other games like Forza Horizon have to stream a similar amount of data, move faster and, run at 60fps.

If insomniac wanted spidey to move faster they would have done it. Even if they had to use one of the aforementioned creative techniques to give the data time to load. Spider-Man moving speed is based off what works for the game. Not a limitation of the hard drive.
 

Marble

Member
Nov 27, 2017
2,911
You got google. Look it up.
Sure I'll bite.

SUPERCHARGED PC ARCHITECTURE: Said by Sony, not a developer and not about a game.

BLAST PROCESSING: Said by Sega, not a developer and not about a game. By the way this is real, although not used at the time: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-blast-processing-retro-analysis

TILED RESOURCES: Found this: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2014/01/30/directx-11-2-tiled-resources-enables-optimized-pc-gaming-experiences/ - What exactly am I looking for?

THE CLOUD: Well, the cloud exists, doesn't it? Sure, Crackdown didn't deliver on that, but it surely was meant to create the destruction we saw.

The fact still is, that an SSD (and we don't even know what the custom SSD exactly is is in the PS5/next gen Xbox) is many times faster than a HDD and the games have never been designed around them.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,984
We can argue about the "gamechanger" word, but reducing loading times is always a good thing. Always.

I mean we'll still have loading times of some sort of course but if we can go from 10sec to 3sec for an average loading screen then that's still one hell of a QoL improvement.

And yes halving loading times or more is definitely something that's possible when you double or triple your drive overall speed 🤷‍♀️
 

sleepr

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,772
Obviously the design of the games are different. Wipeout is running at 60fps as well.

Other games like Forza Horizon have to stream a similar amount of data, move faster and, run at 60fps.

If insomniac wanted spidey to move faster they would have done it. Even if they had to use one of the aforementioned creative techniques to give the data time to load. Spider-Man moving speed is based off what works for the game. Not a limitation of the hard drive.
Forza horizon runs at 30 FPS. Also it doesn't have to process the same amount of data spidey does, it's not even close. The amount of systems going on in spidey is much more complex than FZH, that combined with the HDD speeds limits the movement in the game.

We're talking about a 5400 RPM drive. Take the L.
 

gundamkyoukai

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,570
Obviously the design of the games are different. Wipeout is running at 60fps as well.

Other games like Forza Horizon have to stream a similar amount of data, move faster and, run at 60fps.

If insomniac wanted spidey to move faster they would have done it. Even if they had to use one of the aforementioned creative techniques to give the data time to load. Spider-Man moving speed is based off what works for the game. Not a limitation of the hard drive.
There were already using tricks to get things done .
There comes a point where you just need better hardware to get things done and we at that point with HDD.
Just like how this gen we move to HDD since Blu ray was to slow.
I should also note that "game changer" is not going to mean the same to everyone and this goes double for the people that have to make games .
Them not having to deal with certain things could be a game changer for them even if it don't effect us much .
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
Sure I'll bite.

SUPERCHARGED PC ARCHITECTURE: Said by Sony, not a developer and not about a game.
Said by the PS4 LEAD ARCHITECT, who also develops games and was referring to all games on the system. And said this multiple times in both casual and technical settings.

Can’t squirm away from this one.

BLAST PROCESSING: Said by Sega, not a developer and not about a game. By the way this is real, although not used at the time: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2019-blast-processing-retro-analysis
Sega devs said this about plenty of games. And it’s not that it didn’t exist, it’s not the “game changer” first advertised.

You tell me what you are looking for. You are the one trying to split hairs here to make a point.

Again, just as the aforementioned technical hype terms. Plenty of devs in both technical and casual settings have touted the game changing ability of tiles resources. And we see what we got.

THE CLOUD: Well, the cloud exists, doesn't it? Sure, Crackdown didn't deliver on that, but it surely was meant to create the destruction we saw.
It’s not about mere existence or not. Obviously SSD exist and bring improvements. Just as all the rest of the hype terms you looked up. Point is devs take that reality and turn it into hype for the masses.

The fact still is, that an SSD (and we don't even know what the custom SSD exactly is is in the PS5/next gen Xbox) is many times faster than a HDD and the games have never been designed around them.
First part is true, second part is not. Plenty of games have been designed with SSD in mind.
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
There were already using tricks to get things done .
There comes a point where you just need better hardware to get things done and we at that point with HDD.
Just like how this gen we move to HDD since Blu ray was to slow.
Sure, better hardware is the entire package. Spider-Man on PS4 with all the same hardware except a SSD, would have been the same damn game. Just less loading screens or tricks to distract you while things load.

I should also note that "game changer" is not going to mean the same to everyone and this goes double for the people that have to make games .
Them not having to deal with certain things could be a game changer for them even if it don't effect us much .
I agree and that’s mostly what it is. My “game changer” comments were more about a consumer perspective.
 

Bullter

Member
Nov 9, 2017
320
One reason I stopped playing on consoles years ago was the loading times. Shit is gross. Good they finally arrive in the 2010s.
 

Marble

Member
Nov 27, 2017
2,911
Said by the PS4 LEAD ARCHITECT, who also develops games and was referring to all games on the system. And said this multiple times in both casual and technical settings.

Can’t squirm away from this one.


Sega devs said this about plenty of games. And it’s not that it didn’t exist, it’s not the “game changer” first advertised.


You tell me what you are looking for. You are the one trying to split hairs here to make a point.

Again, just as the aforementioned technical hype terms. Plenty of devs in both technical and casual settings have touted the game changing ability of tiles resources. And we see what we got.


It’s not about mere existence or not. Obviously SSD exist and bring improvements. Just as all the rest of the hype terms you looked up. Point is devs take that reality and turn it into hype for the masses.


First part is true, second part is not. Plenty of games have been designed with SSD in mind.
You're really grasping at straws here. None of these examples are comparable to a dev simply explaining why they choose for a certain approach due to limitations. It's just dumb to throw everything on the "HYPE!!1!1" pile and just write it all of as bullshit.

Lot of people in this thread acknowledge that upgrading their SSD's has been one of the biggest most noticable improvements they ever experienced. It certainly was for me when I did it with my laptop (late 2011 MacBook, still very fast and no complaints).

If you refuse to believe that this is a literal gamechanger, than that's fine. I think devs will eventually gonna do great thinks with it.

DF also seems to be enthusiastic, which is always good.

In truth, the shift to solid-state storage is hugely important, not just in terms of access times and loading speeds but because it brings mass storage - and a colossus increase in data - much closer to the CPU and GPU than we've ever seen before. In its Scarlett trailer, Microsoft even refers to their SSD as 'virtual RAM' - and the implications here in leveraging the processor in ways we've never seen before becomes a little clearer. More detail and more variety resulting in richer and more compelling worlds. The sky's the limit.
 

KillingJoke

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
859
It's game design. Not just faster loading. You can put an SSD in the PS4 now to boost load times drastically but still have the "loading segments" like TLOU stupid water segments or Spidermans train loading screen.
 

Hermii

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,539
It actually does make a huge different in PCs. Also never take marketing at face value.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
Barcelona Spain
You're really grasping at straws here. None of these examples are comparable to a dev simply explaining why they choose for a certain approach due to limitations. It's just dumb to throw everything on the "HYPE!!1!1" pile and just write it all of as bullshit.

Lot of people in this thread acknowledge that upgrading their SSD's has been one of the biggest most noticable improvements they ever experienced. It certainly was for me when I did it with my laptop (late 2011 MacBook, still very fast and no complaints).

If you refuse to believe that this is a literal gamechanger, than that's fine. I think devs will eventually gonna do great thinks with it.

DF also seems to be enthusiastic, which is always good.
And fucking lie to oher dev at GDC. I never seen something so stupid to say.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Sure, better hardware is the entire package. Spider-Man on PS4 with all the same hardware except a SSD, would have been the same damn game. Just less loading screens or tricks to distract you while things load.
You should really watch that talk I linked to. It's incredible the amount of time, effort, and ingenuity that went into making sure the game worked as it did on a hard drive. That's time, effort, and ingenuity that didn't go into other areas of the game. That's time, effort, and ingenuity they won't have to spend on a PS5 with an SSD.
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
You're really grasping at straws here. None of these examples are comparable to a dev simply explaining why they choose for a certain approach due to limitations. It's just dumb to throw everything on the "HYPE!!1!1" pile and just write it all of as bullshit.

Lot of people in this thread acknowledge that upgrading their SSD's has been one of the biggest most noticable improvements they ever experienced. It certainly was for me when I did it with my laptop (late 2011 MacBook, still very fast and no complaints).

If you refuse to believe that this is a literal gamechanger, than that's fine. I think devs will eventually gonna do great thinks with it.

DF also seems to be enthusiastic, which is always good.
In the insomniac speech. The hardrive was nowhere near the focus of the reason they made the design choices they did. That talk would have come and gone with the same fanfare as all other tech talks where the devs explain pretty much the exact same thing.

Only reason that talk gets referenced is from Mark Cernys talk to the media which he hyped up the planned SSD in PS5.

SSD have existed for a long time. We’ve known their benefits for a long time. There was no hype, or talks of game changing developer decisions/abilities, etc. until Mark Cerney said it.

SSD in consoles will do what they’ve always done. Faster loading times, less loading screens. Less stalling techniques from devs.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,978
1TB Nvme SSDs aren't available for that price. Maybe on sale and for a smaller price. Good 1TB PCIE3.0 4x SSDs reaching over 3go/s for read/write are at 140-150 dollars, sometimes more. And I'm not even talking avout PCIE4.0 ones.
Since QLC has been a thing at least the 660P has been a cheap but reliable (for average pc users) NVME SSD. It's 1GB model regularly been in the $90s range. Just recently someone put up a thread (reddit) that it was on sale for $90 and people started wondering "what's with all these posts for bad deals lately", "This is the normal price."


For PCIe 4 who knows if the consoles could get that at a affordable bulk buying price. They've surprised people many times with their ability to include expensive stuff in consoles before, even helping to make things standard and bring prices down.

All of this talk is just going to make future information and examples/video demonstrations very interesting. Lies, truth, understatements, what an exciting time. I don't want to go back to console, but this SSD as a base thing has me interested, and I really do hope it gives PC versions of games a reason to have the SSD version as an optional download, but I doubt that would work. Having a smaller download with less or no redundant data would be good for me since I have data caps.
 
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MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
You should really watch that talk I linked to. It's incredible the amount of time, effort, and ingenuity that went into making sure the game worked as it did on a hard drive. That's time, effort, and ingenuity that didn't go into other areas of the game. That's time, effort, and ingenuity they won't have to spend on a PS5 with an SSD.
You are trying to make it as if the talk was about Hard drives. It wasn’t. It was about the entire package.

If they had more ram, they could load more stuff at once, therefore reducing the need to stream so much. If they had more CPU the could have increased draw distance. More GPU they could have reduced pop in. Etc etc.

You guys are just using that talk because Mark Cerny uses the game for his PS5 hype talk.
 

console lover

Member
Feb 19, 2018
6,039
Not a big deal on PC...what am I hearing? The first thing PC gamers talk about after fps/graphics is the fricken load times
 

Dizastah

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,798
A lot of Spider-man's design was limited by the hard drive.

Everyone should watch this talk:
Hmm......so that's how an SSD can help games graphically. Wow. It really is a game changer.
Doesn't Horizon Zero Dawn use some fancy loading technique as well?
 

dsk1210

Member
Oct 25, 2017
664
Edinburgh UK
What size of SSD is going to be in the PS5?

The games will need to be installed onto the SSD to take advantage of the speed and I can't see many 100gb games fitting in there.
 

Bunzy

Member
Nov 1, 2018
657
What size of SSD is going to be in the PS5?

The games will need to be installed onto the SSD to take advantage of the speed and I can't see many 100gb games fitting in there.
did you listen to cerny talking about data on ps5 games being put into organized chunks. I’m sure they have thought this out
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
Barcelona Spain
You are trying to make it as if the talk was about Hard drives. It wasn’t. It was about the entire package.

If they had more ram, they could load more stuff at once, therefore reducing the need to stream so much. If they had more CPU the could have increased draw distance. More GPU they could have reduced pop in. Etc etc.

You guys are just using that talk because Mark Cerny uses the game for his PS5 hype talk.
That for sure but console have a limited budget and the best is to find a balance but they were limited on Ps4 by the HDD saying differently is literally accuse Insomniac games developer to lie to other devs at GDC. This is a presentation to other devs not at E3.

And I can't imagine the loading time with more RAM and a HDD. lol
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
That for sure but console have a limited budget and the best is to find a balance but they were limited on Ps4 by the HDD saying differently is literally accuse Insomniac games developer to lie to other devs at GDC. This is a presentation to other devs not at E3.
Games are always “limited” by the hardware they are on.

PS5 games will be “limited” by the speed of the SSD.

What’s your point?
 

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,798
One reason I stopped playing on consoles years ago was the loading times. Shit is gross. Good they finally arrive in the 2010s.
So when exactly did you stop playing on consoles? PS4 has some really fast loading times, typically the only long loading time you'll see is when starting a fresh boot on a game. A lot of the time you won't even get what could be reasonably called "loading times" when inside the game.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
Barcelona Spain
Games are always “limited” by the hardware they are on.

PS5 games will be “limited” by the speed of the SSD.

What’s your point?
And what is the point to accuse a dev of lying to it peers at GDC? The console are build to find perfect balance between cost, power, consumption and features.

And the limit will be much higher with a SSD than a HDD. This will help a lot.

EDIT: And GDC 2019 was before any PS5 information when we had no idea there will be an SSD in PS or Xbox Scarlet
 

Coma Ecliptic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
66
Chicago
14 pages to understand that it's using PCIe Version 4.0 (possibly 4.1) and NVMe drives?

More than likely they are using slightly custom tech for bandwidth given the calls, etc from the processor. It certainly will overshadow anything available AT THE MOMENT in PC's...

EDIT
Also, I'm locked in at 1TB SSD, there is a huge oversupply of DRAM and Flash chips at the moment. There have even been rumors of halting production to ensure prices don't absolutely crash.
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
And what is the point to accuse a dev of lying to it peers at GDC? The console are build to find perfect balance between cost, power, consumption and features.

And the limit will be much higher with a SSD than a HDD. This will help a lot.
I never said they were lying. In their talk they didn’t hype up a SSD. They talked about developing on the hardware period.

Mark Cerny was the SSD hype man, and people started posting that video as justification for the hype.
 

Thorrgal

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,036
Nope. Not at all.

Just responding to the dozens of quotes from people bothered by the fact that i dare take a realistic perspective on the topic.
Or maybe you're bothered that people are excited about something and are being unrealistically streaching your points to rain down on their parade?

Are you really more knowledgeable than all this people and all the people in the Next gen thread than disagrees with you?

Just saying
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
Or maybe you're bothered that people are excited about something and are being unrealistically streaching your points to rain down on their parade?

Are you really more knowledgeable than all this people and all the people in the Next gen thread than disagrees with you?

Just saying
I didn’t come in here quoting people to tell them they were wrong. I didn’t make the thread. You reaching for a way to attack me for my opinion. Think you may be barking up the wrong tree here buddy.

And the next gen thread is literally titled hot air and fan noise. Wouldn’t call that thread an authority on anything
 
OP
OP
mogster7777

mogster7777

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,363
So when exactly did you stop playing on consoles? PS4 has some really fast loading times, typically the only long loading time you'll see is when starting a fresh boot on a game. A lot of the time you won't even get what could be reasonably called "loading times" when inside the game.
Yeah this I don’t really get this when people say loading times in console games are bad. They are WAY better than what they used to be on previous gen systems (especially ps1 era) sometimes you still get a longer load screen than normal especially fast travelling but generally speaking games have improved vastly with loading even with normal HDD due to faster processors and throughout.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,261
Wait so since this is a custom SSD does this mean we'll be buying proprietary ones for storage upgrades ;__;?
I think that feature will just go away. There would be no point for developers to make games with the speed of the SSD in mind if anyone can replace it with a random slower one from a Newegg sale.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,978
Wait so since this is a custom SSD does this mean we'll be buying proprietary ones for storage upgrades ;__;?
Maybe yeah, XD

This is going to be an interesting year of info.

------------------------------
PC games from next Gen ports should just put SSD in the system requirements. Go buy a $30 SSD for GTA6 you people! You go and buy a CPU and Motherboard for that game that require SSE4.1.
 

Spinluck

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,885
Florida
I think that feature will just go away. There would be no point for developers to make games with the speed of the SSD in mind if anyone can replace it with a random slower one from a Newegg sale.
Maybe yeah, XD

This is going to be an interesting year of info.

------------------------------
PC games from next Gen ports should just put SSD in the system requirements. Go buy a $30 SSD for GTA6 you people! You go and buy a CPU and Motherboard for that game that require SSE4.1.
It's a wait and see for me-- I just wonder how the market will adapt for it if the prices are steep.

If It's for the betterment of game performance and less corners that devs are forced to cut, I'm all in.
 

CampFreddie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,116
Wait so since this is a custom SSD does this mean we'll be buying proprietary ones for storage upgrades ;__;?
Yeah, this sounds very unlikely to me. Unless they really want some insane console prices.
The PS5 has to be cheap.
The SSD will be small to keep costs down for the base-model console, which means it has to be expandable with external drives or cheap upgrades. Games will become increasingly large.
It's not going to have highly customised unique technology. Sony learnt their lesson from the Cell processor. They'll use off-the-shelf parts with relatively little customisation, especially for the one part that has traditionally been upgradeable/expandable.
It'll almost certainly be an M2 drive with a PCIE interface. Maybe even SATA3, which they'd need if they support for external expansion drives (SATA3 is just as fast for PC gaming as PCIE, because sequential read GB/s is not the bottleneck for game loading)
Even an off-the-shelf consumer SSD will be a major high-cost part for a console.