Why is SSD in PS5 made to look like a game changer? PC’s have had it for decade and it hasn’t made that much difference?

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
Barcelona Spain

Hieroph

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,802
Yeah this I don’t really get this when people say loading times in console games are bad. They are WAY better than what they used to be on previous gen systems (especially ps1 era) sometimes you still get a longer load screen than normal especially fast travelling but generally speaking games have improved vastly with loading even with normal HDD due to faster processors and throughout.
Basically this. I'm looking forward to gameplay improvements much more than loading time improvements.

Wait so since this is a custom SSD does this mean we'll be buying proprietary ones for storage upgrades ;__;?
Has it been confirmed to be a custom drive? The way I see it, it's a stock SSD and you can replace it with any other stock SSD, and the software checks that it's compatible and handles the special features.
 

Pasha

Member
Jan 27, 2018
1,433
A lot of Spider-man's design was limited by the hard drive.

Everyone should watch this talk:

If they had to work around the limitation of someone replacing their PS4 HDD with a slower one, wouldn't the PS5 devs have to work around those limitations as well?
What if someone attaches a regular HDD as an external drive and installs a game on it? Do the devs just let the game break down or do they limit the installation to only the main PS5 internal storage?
 

MajesticSoup

Member
Feb 22, 2019
1,069
Games are always “limited” by the hardware they are on.

PS5 games will be “limited” by the speed of the SSD.

What’s your point?
Correct. Current game design is held back by HDD speeds. For the same reason games now have large installs and no longer play directly from the blurray with its slow data rates. We’ll also be limited by SSD speeds until a future technology comes out but ssd will make it less likely to be a bottleneck compared to if they still used hdd.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
3,424
Yeah, this sounds very unlikely to me. Unless they really want some insane console prices.
The PS5 has to be cheap.
The SSD will be small to keep costs down for the base-model console, which means it has to be expandable with external drives or cheap upgrades. Games will become increasingly large.
It's not going to have highly customised unique technology. Sony learnt their lesson from the Cell processor. They'll use off-the-shelf parts with relatively little customisation, especially for the one part that has traditionally been upgradeable/expandable.
It'll almost certainly be an M2 drive with a PCIE interface. Maybe even SATA3, which they'd need if they support for external expansion drives (SATA3 is just as fast for PC gaming as PCIE, because sequential read GB/s is not the bottleneck for game loading)
Even an off-the-shelf consumer SSD will be a major high-cost part for a console.
What? No, SATA3 is absolutely not as fast as PCIe, what the hell? SATA3 does max 600MB/s and PCIe 3.0, at 4x, does nearly 4GB/s. Then you have other factors at play like the encoding of the data, the number of lanes, the controller of the device, how the OS uses it. I would expect any external drive support to require USB3 and there be a speed check that will, essentially, eliminate a lot of external HDDs or there will be a prompt letting you know that the performance of games installed externally will not match that of the internal memory.

Sony could also go loco and offer something like a Thunderbolt connector just for external drives and sell them for people needing or wanting more storage. Or a way to swap the internal drive out and have a migration cable ala the 360 HDD migration cable.
 

panda-zebra

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,667
Right, therefore Spider-Man’s speed was not limited by the hardrive.
Every ps4 game is limited not only by the speed of the installed hard drive, but the speed of a terrible slow-arsed replacement that might be in there. The ps4 devkit has a "crap HDD" mode, and if you want your game to perform on the vast majority of consoles out there, that's what you're working with, and that's what every person playing the game no matter the quality of their drive is gimped to.

Speaking of gimping...

Yeah, they were selling hype. And as we see in this thread, they did a good job.
A game running on the PC under windows and its file systems, whether it's on a crappy old HDD or an ultra fast top end solid state drive, is gimped by the way the OS accesses the game files. A PC by nature has file systems designed for an efficient balance between read and write as it does both often. That's what PCs do day in day out. It's not fanciful thinking to expect PCs being unable to live with them without new OS and file system standards and then having games developed to support them. Hand-waving it away as though PC is and will always be inherently superior by default is naive.
 

Smashed_Hulk

Member
Jun 16, 2018
49
Having a a game run off of an ssd is NOT the the same as having a game built to take full advantage of an ssd.

Games are still limited by the lowest common denominator, which is typically the consoles, so games have to be designed to run off an hdd.

Sure, making a game that was built for hdd run off an ssd will bring out much faster loading on pc, but there is still much more room for improvement.

The ps5/xbox4 will simply raise the bar by having a very high speed ssd which will open the door for games to be built to take advantage of that speed, and this will benefit pc gamers as well.
 

MonsterMech

Member
Oct 27, 2017
941
Every ps4 game is limited not only by the speed of the installed hard drive, but the speed of a terrible slow-arsed replacement that might be in there. The ps4 devkit has a "crap HDD" mode, and if you want your game to perform on the vast majority of consoles out there, that's what you're working with, and that's what every person playing the game no matter the quality of their drive is gimped to.
It’s all relative, hardware specs are literally a list of limitations.

No one ever argued that hard drives were not a limiting factor.

That’s the entire point of dev kits. To show devs their limits.


Speaking of gimping...



A game running on the PC under windows and its file systems, whether it's on a crappy old HDD or an ultra fast top end solid state drive, is gimped by the way the OS accesses the game files. A PC by nature has file systems designed for an efficient balance between read and write as it does both often. That's what PCs do day in day out. It's not fanciful thinking to expect PCs being unable to live with them without new OS and file system standards and then having games developed to support them. Hand-waving it away as though PC is and will always be inherently superior by default is naive.
I’m honestly not sure your point here. I never argued against any of this.
 
Nov 15, 2018
103
Do the devs just let the game break down or do they limit the installation to only the main PS5 internal storage?
It is not much of a concern. If someone managed to install a game on a shit storage medium they will experience common problems of slow texture streaming, long loading times, hitching/stuttering. It will still be playable. Games like Red Dead 2 and Spiderman are purposefully designed to slow down your movement speed to stream the world around your character. Those two examples are where the effects suck the most.
 

Kyolux

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,081
I don't think replacing your drive will be an option this time around. Outside of potentially a Sony provided solution? Although I'm thinking more and more that the drive will be soldered on the system and positioned for efficacity and not to be replaceable.
 

luoapp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
158
Wait so since this is a custom SSD does this mean we'll be buying proprietary ones for storage upgrades ;__;?
Actually, I think it's more likely some 256G SSD soldered on the board, but you can use whatever HDD (or SSD if you like) as game vault. Game will be copied to the internal SSD first time it plays.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
Barcelona Spain
Basically this. I'm looking forward to gameplay improvements much more than loading time improvements.



Has it been confirmed to be a custom drive? The way I see it, it's a stock SSD and you can replace it with any other stock SSD, and the software checks that it's compatible and handles the special features.
Cerny said two times this is a custom ultra fast SSD.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
Barcelona Spain
And the fastest SSD is maybe not the PS5 one but the Stadia SSD architecture where they told they can access TBytes of data using the datacenter.

SSD in datacenter goes much faster than SSD on consumer PC.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,051
Since QLC has been a thing at least the 660P has been a cheap but reliable (for average pc users) NVME SSD. It's 1GB model regularly been in the $90s range. Just recently someone put up a thread (reddit) that it was on sale for $90 and people started wondering "what's with all these posts for bad deals lately", "This is the normal price."

QLC drives perform horribly (like Hard Drive speeds) when the drive gets near full. That's bad when you're talking about 100GB games.
 
Last edited:

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,051
Forza horizon runs at 30 FPS. Also it doesn't have to process the same amount of data spidey does, it's not even close. The amount of systems going on in spidey is much more complex than FZH, that combined with the HDD speeds limits the movement in the game.

We're talking about a 5400 RPM drive. Take the L.
Forza Horizon 4 runs at 60FPS on the Xbox One X.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
QLC drives perform horrible (like Hard Drive speeds) when the drive gets near full. That's bad when you're talking about 100GB games.
Yeah when near full and on writes not on reads. The person I quoted said, "1TB Nvme SSDs aren't available for that price." For gaming QLC isn't bad at all, the only problem is if you do a lot of data intensive tasks that needs to write to the drive often and fast, like terabytes per day often (content creation, servers stuff, scientific research, etc.). Installing or transferring on a near full QLC would suck but you shouldn't have to do it often (spend a bit more for a bigger version. 2TB for me, games drive).


That said I doubt Sony will go with a QLC and if they do they may cap the amount of data you can write to it to make sure you have overprovisioned space that allow it to be pretty quick and helps with the endurance of the drive. Some SSD's do this already, but for QLC and a consumer heavy product like a console maybe it'll save a bit more space, if Sony went for the penny pinching SSD. I bet they can get better bulk contract deals where they don't have to go with a QLC that's gets too slow on writes.
 
Last edited:

alstrike

Member
Aug 27, 2018
735
OP, the PS4 came with a SATA 2 5400rpm HDD...

I have a SATA III SSD in my PS4 Pro and it's already a whole new level, an NVME SSD is going to be mental in the PS5.
 

Thorrgal

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,036
I didn’t come in here quoting people to tell them they were wrong. I didn’t make the thread. You reaching for a way to attack me for my opinion. Think you may be barking up the wrong tree here buddy.

And the next gen thread is literally titled hot air and fan noise. Wouldn’t call that thread an authority on anything
I mean that's the joke, ain't it? Easy to get...

Anyway that means you won't go there to defend your points, doesn't it?

Shame, I thought there maybe was some substance behind your points, but maybe is not that whole thread that is hot air.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,093
a sunken pirate ship
QLC drives perform horribly (like Hard Drive speeds) when the drive gets near full. That's bad when you're talking about 100GB games.
And then you compress the data to save space you wind up being unable to stream off the drive / potentially being CPU limited again. I think this is a good design decision and in general I want to see solid state media becoming the standard because it's faster and not prone to the sorts of mechanical failures of, well, mechanical drives, but I'm not convinced this is going to be as big of a game changer for most developers.
 

BeImonkey

Member
Dec 9, 2017
1,659
OP, the PS4 came with a SATA 2 5400rpm HDD...

I have a SATA III SSD in my PS4 Pro and it's already a whole new level, an NVME SSD is going to be mental in the PS5.
Doesn't a 5400rpm HDD only have like ~100MB/s Read speed? A budget PC m.2 would be 2000 MB/s, so 20x the speed! The question is how customized the thing will be though. Some estimates here seem to think it would be faster than any available PC m.2.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
Barcelona Spain
That's essentially meaningless. All SSDs are custom designs.
No SSDs follow a standard. The SSD in the patent out of the is heavily customized. The only common things are the NAND Flash itself and maybe the bus.

 

OmegaDL50

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
Philadelphia, PA
Posting again for good measure

The average read speeds of a 7200RPM HDD are 120MB/s. (The stock PS4 HDD is 5400RPM which even slower at roughly 80 to 100MB/s) I'm guessing quite a few folks upgraded the stock drives to something better or using a external USB HDD but need to deal with the bus speeds USB 3.0 and whatever the spindle speed of the HDD inside the external USB drive being utilized.

Some NVMe SSD drives (such as the Samsung 970 Evo Plus) have confirmed read speeds of 3.5GB/s.
3500 / 120 = 29 times faster. Keep in mind this is PCIe 3.0 Bus speeds, the new PCIe 4.0 is even faster.

Even much cheaper 2GB/s drives are still substantially faster.

To say this isn't a significant difference is a showcase of ignorance.

Webpages load faster, the OS boots quicker, screen transitions end faster, It's pure speed improvements all in all.

This just a example of between HDD / Sata / NVMe on PC.

A Console with 4th revision of PCIe controlling its bus speed and not limited to SATA III is substantial and is in no way a minor upgrade.
 

DigSCCP

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,449
Posting again for good measure

The average read speeds of a 7200RPM HDD are 120MB/s. (The stock PS4 HDD is 5400RPM which even slower at roughly 80 to 100MB/s) I'm guessing quite a few folks upgraded the stock drives to something better or using a external USB HDD but need to deal with the bus speeds USB 3.0 and whatever the spindle speed of the HDD inside the external USB drive being utilized.

Some NVMe SSD drives (such as the Samsung 970 Evo Plus) have confirmed read speeds of 3.5GB/s.
3500 / 120 = 29 times faster. Keep in mind this is PCIe 3.0 Bus speeds, the new PCIe 4.0 is even faster.

Even much cheaper 2GB/s drives are still substantially faster.

To say this isn't a significant difference is a showcase of ignorance.

Webpages load faster, the OS boots quicker, screen transitions end faster, It's pure speed improvements all in all.

This just a example of between HDD / Sata / NVMe on PC.

A Console with 4th revision of PCIe controlling its bus speed and not limited to SATA III is substantial and is in no way a minor upgrade.
While I do agree that this is a huge upgrade for console space I wonder if the OPs question align with mine around this subject : and besides load times ?
We saw Insomniac, if Im not mistaken, talking about how SSDs could change game design now that they are the baseline.
And I believe that walking sessions to mascarade loads are the most obvious answer to this...but besides that what can we expect ?
What can devs achieve with this new baseline besides faster loads and boots or forced load sections ?
We are going to see bigger worlds ? Better physics ? More NPCs ?
I ask cause I have no idea what could change with this change besides loads.
 

OmegaDL50

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,141
Philadelphia, PA
While I do agree that this is a huge upgrade for console space I wonder if the OPs question align with mine around this subject : and besides load times ?
We saw Insomniac, if Im not mistaken, talking about how SSDs could change game design now that they are the baseline.
And I believe that walking sessions to mascarade loads are the most obvious answer to this...but besides that what can we expect ?
What can devs achieve with this new baseline besides faster loads and boots or forced load sections ?
We are going to see bigger worlds ? Better physics ? More NPCs ?
I ask cause I have no idea what could change with this change besides loads.
Physics are typically a CPU thing. There are some GPU compute level physics (Nvidia Physx for example), but stuff like HAVOK and ragdoll or soft-body deformation and water simulation is typically CPU heavier in execution.

More NPCs is likely because RAM and Storage go hand in hand. The less storage needs to temporarily put into RAM and can access directly means a more direct response to load assets on screen.

Open Worlds wouldn't necessarily be bigger but draw distances and asset streaming will be much more direct. You are less likely to run in a straight line and have the world have pop-in in front you like trees and other environmental effects. It will be much more natural because the game will be able load those assets more immediately. Less reliance on low level LODs for example.
 

chris 1515

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,817
Barcelona Spain
Physics are typically a CPU thing. There are some GPU compute level physics (Nvidia Physx for example), but stuff like HAVOK and ragdoll or soft-body deformation and water simulation is typically CPU heavier in execution.

More NPCs is likely because RAM and Storage go hand in hand. The less storage needs to temporarily put into RAM and can access directly means a more direct response to load assets on screen.

Open Worlds wouldn't necessarily be bigger but draw distances and asset streaming will be much more direct. You are less likely to run in a straight line and have the world have pop-in in front you like trees and other environmental effects. It will be much more natural because the game will be able load those assets more immediately. Less reliance on low level LODs for example.
Less pop in, better draw distance, less speed limitation, no sequence for hiding the loading, coupled with the CPU* city will be denser with more NPC and not cut in part like meridian because of streaming limitation. It will help a lot for persistence world with fast read and fast write, graphics nearly as good for an Open world than linear game.

Because even if it is a very simple AI, when you have many in the same time this is important.
 

supernormal

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
876
While I do agree that this is a huge upgrade for console space I wonder if the OPs question align with mine around this subject : and besides load times ?
We saw Insomniac, if Im not mistaken, talking about how SSDs could change game design now that they are the baseline.
And I believe that walking sessions to mascarade loads are the most obvious answer to this...but besides that what can we expect ?
What can devs achieve with this new baseline besides faster loads and boots or forced load sections ?
We are going to see bigger worlds ? Better physics ? More NPCs ?
I ask cause I have no idea what could change with this change besides loads.
You'll definitely see more dense worlds since you'll have a ton more bandwidth. Some of those real-time photorealistic tech demos need ultra high-speed drives for all the detail they pack inside every frame. Another thing you will see devs do depending on their vision, is stuff like being able to "immediately" swap environments which could be implemented into a gameplay mechanic sort of like Titanfall 2 did in that mind-blowing level. You could probably have stuff like the portals in God of War work immediately as you walk through instead of having to walk around the tree waiting for the game to load. And if you can get creative enough, for example, think of having to implement the portals themselves into some sort of puzzle mechanic in the response is fast enough.
 

Nanashrew

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,390
From everything Sony has talked about, it doesn't sound like a typical SDD, and more like NVME 4.0 which is very new and a substantial upgrade over current stuff.
 

DigSCCP

Member
Nov 16, 2017
1,449
Physics are typically a CPU thing. There are some GPU compute level physics (Nvidia Physx for example), but stuff like HAVOK and ragdoll or soft-body deformation and water simulation is typically CPU heavier in execution.

More NPCs is likely because RAM and Storage go hand in hand. The less storage needs to temporarily put into RAM and can access directly means a more direct response to load assets on screen.

Open Worlds wouldn't necessarily be bigger but draw distances and asset streaming will be much more direct. You are less likely to run in a straight line and have the world have pop-in in front you like trees and other environmental effects. It will be much more natural because the game will be able load those assets more immediately. Less reliance on low level LODs for example.
You'll definitely see more dense worlds since you'll have a ton more bandwidth. Some of those real-time photorealistic tech demos need ultra high-speed drives for all the detail they pack inside every frame. Another thing you will see devs do depending on their vision, is stuff like being able to "immediately" swap environments which could be implemented into a gameplay mechanic sort of like Titanfall 2 did in that mind-blowing level. You could probably have stuff like the portals in God of War work immediately as you walk through instead of having to walk around the tree waiting for the game to load. And if you can get creative enough, for example, think of having to implement the portals themselves into some sort of puzzle mechanic in the response is fast enough.
Thanks for the answers !
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,444
I find it difficult to believe that PC games will refuse to run unless the owner has an SSD. And if that if this is true, then game design for most games will still be held back and loading times will be the only benefit. Sony exclusive games would be the only exception where the SSD true potential could be taken advantage of.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
From everything Sony has talked about, it doesn't sound like a typical SDD, and more like NVME 4.0 which is very new and a substantial upgrade over current stuff.
And the reason PCIe 4.0 doesn't make sense for PC gamers is games don't take advantage of the bandwidth yet. I hope PC starts after these new consoles. I will wait to upgrade, hopefully my old SSDs can keep up when the change happens for PC. I'll use my extra HDDs as actual backups finally.
 

KKRT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,004
A game running on the PC under windows and its file systems, whether it's on a crappy old HDD or an ultra fast top end solid state drive, is gimped by the way the OS accesses the game files. A PC by nature has file systems designed for an efficient balance between read and write as it does both often. That's what PCs do day in day out. It's not fanciful thinking to expect PCs being unable to live with them without new OS and file system standards and then having games developed to support them. Hand-waving it away as though PC is and will always be inherently superior by default is naive.
Thats not correct. This only applies if game uses normal file/folder structure which most high performance games do not do anyway.
You can design your own file structure and file read/write/decoding system so you wont be limited to OS file system limitations.
This is also how databases like Oracle, Postgre, MS Server SQL etc are designed and thats why their perform as fast as they do.

---
I find it difficult to believe that PC games will refuse to run unless the owner has an SSD. And if that if this is true, then game design for most games will still be held back and loading times will be the only benefit. Sony exclusive games would be the only exception where the SSD true potential could be taken advantage of.
Thats true they will run, they will just perform worse.
Star Citizen is designed around SSD and actually very high performant SSD (Intel Optane Technology) and it just perform poorly on HDD.
 
Last edited:

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I find it difficult to believe that PC games will refuse to run unless the owner has an SSD. And if that if this is true, then game design for most games will still be held back and loading times will be the only benefit. Sony exclusive games would be the only exception where the SSD true potential could be taken advantage of.
It'll probably end up like the Path of Exile current situation where HDD experience just feels wrong. Check it.


I feel like POE on PC is already made with SSD in mind sort of. There's no way the developers are using HDD as the base, but more of a secondary. It was rough, this was my experience as well before I moved it to SSD.
 

SirBaron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
558
I want to see how this is going to work with multiple games? It's safe to assume the SSD will be 500GB, if it's 1TB then the console is going to be expensive. However that 500GB or even 1TB is going to go really fast, hell 4-6 AAA games and the drive is full.

So what's going to happen then? If you use a external drive it's going to be a lot slower even if it's a external SSD due to the fact it will be external via USB.
 

FaceHugger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,871
Duder, switching to SSD's was a game changer for me in performance on PC. I boot in seconds. Games load in seconds. If a game has to page for some reason I no longer notice. SSD's are a big deal.
 

Kuraudo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,080
Because it's a better selling point than telling those worried about digital rights that the storage drive with their digital copies will die in a hundred years :D
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I want to see how this is going to work with multiple games? It's safe to assume the SSD will be 500GB, if it's 1TB then the console is going to be expensive. However that 500GB or even 1TB is going to go really fast, hell 4-6 AAA games and the drive is full.

So what's going to happen then? If you use a external drive it's going to be a lot slower even if it's a external SSD due to the fact it will be external via USB.
The reason so many big AAA games these days are so big is they have to put redundant data in the game to help speed up HDD seek times. They can get rid of that when SSDs are the only thing being used on the console. Not PC though, we may need it still unless game launchers allow us to pick between the SSD or the HDD version :\