Why is the DCEU such a failure?

Arthoneceron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,922
Minas Gerais, Brazil
Because they don't want to follow Marvel steps and make a structured universe.

They just thought that a "gritty Superman movie" with someone which theorically understood how comics were would be enough for make them some millions of dollars.

I mean, Doomsday/Apocalypse in a second movie is so stupid that's hilarious even to think.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,639
Zack Snyder wanted to set a template for this universe so that it was dark enough where Batman might potentially be raped.

I’m not making a joke.
 

Zelenogorsk

Member
Mar 1, 2018
889
Zack Snyder is one of the worst directors currently working in Hollywood. Giving him the keys to the franchise was huge mistake.
 

Fury451

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,734
They put someone with the wrong kind of vision in charge and gave them way too much free reign over creativity. Then they spent a lot of time trying to play catch-up to what everybody else was doing instead of just doing their own thing. Although I guess they were doing their own thing it was just a terrible thing, so now you have a mishmash of ideas all over the place but it’ll probably level itself out and be fine.

They were killing it on their streaming service with the television though, at least until Swamp Thing was mysteriously and unceremoniously canceled before it even debuted it’s second episode, and the rumors that higher ups don’t like creative things like Swamp Thing and Doom Patrol and want more CW horeshit so they’re back to the usual self sabotaging fuckery that they get up to.
 

Molto

Member
Oct 27, 2017
934
Is it thought? Wonder Women, Aquaman, and Shazam are all well-liked.
Don't forget, profitable too. Even BvS made money. Maybe not as much as it could have, sure. Even trash like Suicide Squad made a killing. So you may not like the DCEU, but it has a few critical hits, and basically all of them were financial hits. Hardly a failure by most metrics.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,481
DCEU fails because it doesn't have RDJ, Chris Hemsworth, Tom Hiddleston, Jon Favreau, Samuel L. Jackson.

I know a lot of people hate the stories and writing, but I honestly believe the cast itself is bad and the core problem.

Nolan's Batman movies was awesome because he had fantastic actors in it.

But this Justice League group is mostly awful, save Gal Gadot and Jason MoMoa.

Supes Cavill sucks.

Batffleck sucks.

Lex Eisenberg sucks.

The entire Suicide Squad sucks.

Bad casting is a big problem.
If you can't remove casting from other issues from the movies then yeah... but I think this is a very myopic view and doesn't really address the real issue.

Affleck and Eisenberg are better actors than Gadot and Mamoa. But because Mamoa and Gadot were in better movies you seem to give them a pass.
 

dDASTARDLY

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
413
It's just Superman, really. The problem is Superman is the foundation everything else was built on, so it's exceptionally hard for the good work that's done to properly course-correct. The DCEU would probably be fine if they'd just done a hard break after BvS and said "everything else is in a new universe".
I agree with this. They started with the big guns and it's kind of hard to start a universe with a character that's kind of limitless in the audiences eyes. Batman is similar in that he's "dark" and it's hard to connect a universe to that too.

Honestly, and I'm not even that big of a fan of the WW movie (it's too derivative of the first avenger imo)… but they should've had balls and started with her instead. Of course, that's the beauty of hindsight.
 

emesve

Member
Oct 25, 2017
556
They should've put Snyder in charge of how to depict fight/action, nothing else. The fights from MoS are still unsurpassed, first live action I've seen where most of the kinetics actually make sense and feel right.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,012
If you can't remove casting from other issues from the movies then yeah... but I think this is a very myopic view and doesn't really address the real issue.

Affleck and Eisenberg are better actors than Gadot and Mamoa. But because Mamoa and Gadot were in better movies you seem to give them a pass.
Gadot and Momoa were great in their roles.

Affleck and Cavill were not.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,297
This is known but I'm disputing the "keep going" part. No matter how decide to tell their stories, they'll be told. It makes them money.
It's kind of weird. DC superhero movies will keep going but the DCEU as we know it is effectively dead.
  • Cavill is out as Superman and there's no Man of Steel sequels in the works
  • Affleck is out as Batman and that's being essentially rebooted
  • Ezra Miller is supposedly out as Flash and that movie's been stuck in development hell
  • Fisher's contract for Cyborg is going to expire soon
  • Suicide Squad is getting rebooted albeit with a lot of the same cast
Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the only things left.
 

echoshifting

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,827
The Negative Zone
I don't think it's about the bad movies. MCU had bad movies early on. It's about the creative vision necessary to tie everything together in a way that satisfies a wide audience, and to humanize these mythic characters without losing what makes them fun to watch. They needed a Feige, but recent history is showing us that you can't elevate just anyone to that position and expect results. The man is special. He threaded the needle. And frankly Marvel was hungry for success at that time in a way that DC has never had to be. It all came together in this perfect way, and of course every studio head on Earth said "I want one of those" without realizing the alchemy that made it possible can't simply be replicated factory-production-style.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
They differiated it too much from the MCU and had an identity crisis, trying to be too edgy or have pathos, or they just weren't very good. The films got better when got better directors and stopped trying too hard. I felt Wonder Woman and Shazam were the same 7/10 as most MCU stand alones.
 

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
15,474
Honestly the end of Watchmen should have been a giant red flag that he shouldn't be allowed too much creative freedom with adaptations. His ending to Watchmen is basically him completely missing the point about the ending and the story.
It's been so long since I watched that movie, how did the ending differ again and why was it so bad?
 

¡Hip Hop!

Member
Nov 9, 2017
510
WB wanted Marvel money without putting in the same legwork. They didn't want to establish anything. Post-Nolan, they've epitomized cynical corporate greed.

They're slowly crawling their way out of the mess they made, I guess.
 
Jan 10, 2018
3,464
People at Warner Bros thought that making the DCEU 'grim & gritty' universe-wide was a smart idea to differentiate themselves from the more jokey MCU. Big mistake. That should have been done on a per-character basis.
They tried to ape the Nolan movies, which were simply dark in look and mature in tone, while still having a core you can root for. Humans are flawed, but deserve a chance. Snyders vision is fuck humans and you can't trust Superman.

Which is fine if you give people something to root for or atleast to be interested in. But Snyder ain't having that.
 

TheDinoman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,627
They didn't have an actual plan.

Marvel carefully planned out and build their empire. They started off small with solo films for Iron Man, Hulk, Thor and Cap and then proceeded to go big with Avengers. DC on the other hand just threw a bunch of shit at the wall with no care or regard for anything. Fuck it, let's just jump straight into big crossover nonsense right after the very first movie. It'd be like if they tried going from Iron Man to Infinity War in like just two films.

Also, getting Zack Snyder to direct three of the most important films (Man of Steel, Batman v. Superman, Justice League) certainly didn't do the DCEU any favours.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,297
It's been so long since I watched that movie, how did the ending differ again and why was it so bad?
Instead of a fake alien squid monster attacking the world, it's all Dr Manhattan's fault. The entire reason for it in the comics was because it was a completely third party entity with no Earth based allegiances and thus would unite the world against a common threat. Blaming it all on Dr Manhattan wouldn't solve shit because Manhattan is clearly shown to be a US operative in the movie. If anything the movie ending would trigger the end of the world faster.
 

Baji Boxer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,125
It was rushed without letting things happen more organically. They did one poorly received Superman movie, then went full steam ahead using that bad movie to establish the overall tone and style for their cinematic universe. It's no coincidence that their best movies (Wonder Woman and Aquaman) had no significant ties to the rest.

And how do you establish a DC Universe without a solo Batman film? Made casting Ben Affleck a mistake too, imo, just because of his age. They already had to recast their biggest movie property before he got his own film.
 

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
915
They rushed it. Much as I liked BvS (minority opinion on that here, I know), we all knew something was off when they spoiled Doomsday in the second trailer. The movie had two movies worth of plot arcs in it, and Justice League had 3 or 4.

It's like they didn't trust that this whole super-hero movie thing would last this long, so they wanted to hurry up and get the big team-up out there to rake in those Avengers billions.

Now they got just under 900mil with BvS, and a whole lot of ashes to dine on with JL, and a whole reset of the shared universe to execute upon. I have no real inspiration to write about JL, but you might like my article on BvS... it details how we got here.
 
Jan 10, 2018
3,464
They should've put Snyder in charge of how to depict fight/action, nothing else. The fights from MoS are still unsurpassed, first live action I've seen where most of the kinetics actually make sense and feel right.
The action sucks. Yes, it is on the more kinetic side, but action tells a story and the story its telling is Superman gives zero fucks except for the lasereyes moment.
 

echoshifting

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,827
The Negative Zone
And how do you establish a DC Universe without a solo Batman film? Made casting Ben Affleck a mistake too, imo, just because of his age. They already had to recast their biggest movie property before he got his own film.
Casting a guy Affleck's age as Batman for their first in-universe Batman film really said everything you needed to know about the lack of vision and forethought for DCEU.

Like that, I feel, is the moment when it was obvious this endeavor was doomed
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,639
stupid snarky reasons ITT aside,

The fundamental reason is that they were too eager to get to their "Avengers" movie instead of spending enough time doing the build up for all of the characters. They needed a focused plan in order to do that, and as far as we saw — the plan was hurry up and do a Batman and Superman film so we can get into doing a Justice League film.
 

More_Badass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,802
In 2013, Man of Steel releases. It's very much a self-contained movie in the vein of Batman Begins, with the only hint of anything more being a split-second WayneTech logo. It clearly wasn't trying to establish a larger universe

Three years later, BvS releases and retrofits Man of Steel as being the first act of a larger universe and story. In simple terms, it's as if the MCU went from Iron Man straight to Civil War. It feels like a movie trying to do three movies of build-up and sequel set-up in one. Practically stopping the plot in its tracks to tease stuff in very jarring, unnatural ways

The next movie is Suicide Squad, a movie that destroys any kind of consistent tone that seemed to exist between Man of Steel and BvS, and feels like an extraneous story that doesn't move a larger story forward in any way. None of these characters play a role in the subsequent movies.

Wonder Woman feels similarly extraneous, despite being a decent movie. It's a movie that feels like it's deliberately trying to separate itself from the universe's story to be able to do its own thing

Then Justice League plays it super safe, with a villain and threat that comes out of nowhere, cramming in characters and their stories that no one cares about, and trying to make a big event out of something that BvS already capitalized on. Like trying to make Avengers seem like a huge cinematic event after already doing a big team-up in Civil War

Aside from Iron Man 2, the early MCU movies never felt rushed. They all took their time to establish their heroes, yet all felt subtly connected in terms of world-building and tone. Every movie added a little bit more to the larger universe. Then when Avengers came around, the heavy lifting was done - heroes, villain, and threat all established - so the movie could focus on the chemistry between the team and building up to the team coming together for the first time.

By contrast, the DCEU started with a movie that existed almost completely in a vacuum, and then rushed to a Avengers-style event film with their biggest characters, then did movies that felt disconnected from those movies, then tried to another event film despite already taking the wind out of their own sails

Those are just the issues tonally, narratively, and in terms of building a universe. Nevermind the individual issues with the movies themselves
 
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Htown

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,492
These movies generally made a decent amount of money, so when you say they're a failure, you can only be comparing them to Marvel.

And in that case, the answer is simple. It's the characters.

Zack Snyder doesn't understand shit about the characters, and since the whole thing was essentially built off of his vision, it was doomed from the start. He doesn't get Batman and he sure as all hell doesn't understand Superman. And even if you take his versions of them as intentional alternate takes on the characters, they're bad takes.
 

Strider_Blaze

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,035
California
Pretty much the execs at WB trying to rush into the team up film after their first film in MoS and giving the creative keys to Zach Snyder, whose had a lackluster history of directing. And he also doesn’t understand the characters at all!

The DCEU isn’t technically dead, though some elements are essentially being soft-rebooted like the SS “sequel” and Batman and Superman being recasted.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,337
Bad scripts + Rushing their shared world building on top of critically panned movies and in a way that doesn't build anticipation.

There are exceptions of course though. Suicide Squad has arguably the worst script and though I enjoyed Aquaman, I wouldn't say it has a particularly strong script either and that didn't stop either from being super successful. I'd say the differences there is that they both looked fun and Aquaman in particular was presenting something new that audiences hadn't seen before. I personally don't think these movies have to be "fun" to be successful (Nolan Batman proves that), but they better be damn good if they're not.
 

Baccus

Member
Dec 4, 2018
1,864
They tried to be different, and that's ok

But they weren't good enough in what they were doing to make it worth the difference. In fact, sometimes they did easily and objectively badly, which is almost unbelievable, as given the strategy chosen (being different) they needed to nail it to stand out and "win" their market/mindshare.

So, weak leadership and lack of artistic commitment, basically.
 

kikiribu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,021
I enjoyed Wonder Woman and Aquaman more than basically everything in the MCU, especially Wonder Woman. Every Marvel movie looks and feels the same to me. It’s a shame Blade is gone. Blade 1 and 2 are better than everything in the MCU.

Batman Begins and The Dark Knight are better than everything in the MCU too.
 

-JD-

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,705
Wonder Woman and Aquaman were pretty well received, financially and critically. Suicide Squad and BvS made lots of money.

I mean, if you want to say that Justice League is emblematic of the entire universe as a whole and a culmination of all the efforts and planning, then sure, the DCEU as a shared universe is a failure based on that alone. But seeing the parts for what they are instead of the whole, you can't just write it all off as a waste.
 

Aaron

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,897
They tried to ape the Nolan movies, which were simply dark in look and mature in tone, while still having a core you can root for. Humans are flawed, but deserve a chance. Snyders vision is fuck humans and you can't trust Superman.

Which is fine if you give people something to root for or atleast to be interested in. But Snyder ain't having that.
Yeah it certainly says something that a movie like TDK (and especially Rises) is considerably more optimistic than Man of Steel.

Hell I know it catches a lot of heat but I'd still say Rises is a good movie despite its flaws because Begins and TDK were able to lay enough of a groundwork for the characters. Similar to how Return of the Jedi is the weakest of the Star Wars trilogy but still gives an emotional pay-off that makes it more than worthwhile.