Why is there so much blowback from people when asking for more gender & ethnic diversity in games?
- Thread starter Neoxon
- Start date
Who’s the arbiter of what is rushing and what isn’t though? History is full of significantly more examples of those with privilege arbitrarily dictating to the oppressed what timeline they’re “allowed” to work under and how much they’re “allowed” to demand. I’d rather deal with the “fallout” of rushing progress than allowing people to stagnate by claiming that some change they’re not prepared for is “too fast”. Progress includes expecting mistakes and fuckups and learning from them. Representation is an ongoing thing. We can weed out and correct what needs to be corrected as it comes. Those who want to represent the proper way will go through the effort and those who fail at it have only themselves to blame and the onus isn’t on the underrepresented for “demanding too much”. And failing at representation once doesn’t mean it’s impossible for a creator to take critique and try again to refine it.
Historically speaking, progress doesn't happen unless people speak up. Historically speaking, waiting never works.
Also, one of my favorite writers. A white dude writing fantasy full of brown people and powerful women (I have a degree in literature, so it's really weird for somebody to throw that out there considering the entire field is full of white men saying brown people and women can't produce art as good as white men, but in any case)
Writing diversely is the easiest thing in the world. It shouldn't take any effort, because the world is a diverse place. We're more connected than we've ever been, so to say that we're "forcing artists to change," to me, is a silly statement, because if you aren't writing stuff that's representative of the world in which we live, then you probably aren't writing well in the first place.
Abercrombie, as far as I know, didn't see much backlash for his shitty cliches, and still took the opportunity to learn and grow from it. That's what most people are asking for. But it's never going to happen when we have an arbitrary standard of quality just to allow marginalized groups to exist in games.
Last edited:
It should start by stopping making jokes of people being different. Raising children to be open and without fear. We should great role models independent of color and sex. Then we wouldn’t have problems accepting people being different, since there’s a role model on a higher level.
Until then it doesn’t help to add examples in media when we fail to appreciate them as variety, not being able to connect.
That would also bring more developers to appreciate diversion. As long as we have the typical 90% white male developers w/o this openness it will not change.
Until then it doesn’t help to add examples in media when we fail to appreciate them as variety, not being able to connect.
That would also bring more developers to appreciate diversion. As long as we have the typical 90% white male developers w/o this openness it will not change.
Last edited:
This. That “proper time, proper place” mentality is broken because it assumes a much more fair world. When we talk about representation, something people often forget is that we live in a world where diversity is actively fought against. Framing the disenfranchised as “forcing” change, almost completely ignores the fact that representation is demanded not simply because it’s lacking but because there are people invested in maintaining a status quo by silencing those calls for progress. We should be loud and outspoken about representation because it’s a struggle and being “patient” means losing ground. We are in a fight against not just apathy but bigotry, where people choose to punish diverse and progressive works singularly for the sake of growing/maintaining straight white male supremacy in media. In that context, worrying over “rushing” cultural progress becomes insignificant.
i have a friend who actually says this, but "endorses feminism or minorities in videogames" but says, "forced" or "dumb implementations of minorities/women should not be in games"
and for me, this sounds very alt-right-ish.
he tries to tell me, he isnt, but these kind of answers dont let me think that.
Wanting things to be done properly isn't sitting quietly and peacefully doing nothing, stop mangling my words.
skillzilla81, was the rest of your post supposed to be for me (you seem to be replying to stuff I never said and topics I never even approached, is why I ask)?
I feel as if we're demanding too little, not too much. Demanding too much would be wanting volume and quantity, I feel as if demaning only volume is demaning way too little, not too much.
The fallout of rushing progress is that new generations hate progressives more by the day. The fallout is what happened in the 80s after the 60s and 70s tried to do things too fast: you get an entire generation raising arms against you and completely undoing all the progress you fought for and actually making it worse than it was before.
Not sure if ResetEra is the right place to ask. Most folks here are fine with diversity.
Much of the blowback comes from 4chan (and its spin-offs) and Reddit, places where a lot of racists and sexists like to hang out. And unfortunately, GAF has also become like 4chan these days (after the ResetEra exodus).
Much of the blowback comes from 4chan (and its spin-offs) and Reddit, places where a lot of racists and sexists like to hang out. And unfortunately, GAF has also become like 4chan these days (after the ResetEra exodus).
Last edited:
OP
OP
It's even a problem on SmashBoards, as I've noticed recently. The point of this thread, is to figure out why the idea of diversity in games gets reactions like the ones mentioned in the OP.
You would really need to ignore the real world, history, and current events around the globe to think this is true.
This is a good point. A clear example is SWERY's The MISSING. Deadly Premonition had an awful, transphobic character and he rightfully got criticism for it. He took it to heart, consulted with trans people, and wrote a story with wonderful trans representation, some of the best I've ever seen not just in games but any media. That game helped me at a time when I needed it most, it's a deeply important game to many in the trans community, and it came from a cis man who fucked up in the past.
I am always baffled at the takes of it's not time yet, it has to be done "right", it can't be pandering. I'm tired of waiting and I will gladly welcome any pandering to me.
Same reason there are minorities that vote for Republican/conservative groups, despite their open hostility towards minorities.
People throwing that shit around are always going to do it. It's basically just gay/trans panic, though naturally they complain very little about lesbian characters.
While the discussion around this may turn ugly I'm not sure if people ultimately are uncool with diverse games in practice. Case in point: Apex Legends. Popular game where most of the characters are not white males. People play the game and it's popular and no one cares.
So you don't play games? Or are you also automatically racist, homophobic, and sexist because you play games?? Listen to how you sound. It's so hyperbolic and over the top. You just want to yell and scream instead of dealing with the issue. Just adding more toxic noise.
Honestly at this point i imagine the people complaining are just doing it out of reflex rather than actually critically thinking about anything.
They see female protagonist, black protagonist, gay characters and automatically assume it’s forced diversity which isn’t a real thing, but they aren’t thinking that far ahead they’re just reacting to react.
They see the things that they’ve been told are wrong and just automatically say they’re wrong, they have their prebaked reasons as to why, they never apply context and never consider the other point of views.
They see female protagonist, black protagonist, gay characters and automatically assume it’s forced diversity which isn’t a real thing, but they aren’t thinking that far ahead they’re just reacting to react.
They see the things that they’ve been told are wrong and just automatically say they’re wrong, they have their prebaked reasons as to why, they never apply context and never consider the other point of views.
What? Just because I play games or you play games doesn't make you nor I those things but gaming absolutely is filled with people who are those things. I literally in my post said I wish we never called the people who did/do/say this stuff "gamers" because that makes all people who play games look bad when not everyone is that way. I said from the start we should've labeled them what they are. Not because I want to called a gamer but because these people are far worse and they need to know it. Did you read my post or just want to argue?
#NotAllMen-Oh, sorry, I meant #NotAllGamers
you're a cishet white man, we get it.
In Asia, it's not uncommon for there to be discrimination against other Asians of different ethnicities, nationalities, and religions, let alone non-Asians. That's why, for example, Crazy Rich Asians flopped in much of Asia. It was a major hit in Singapore, where the movie is set, but otherwise it flopped across much of Asia.
But yes, white people are often preferred over other foreigners (including other Asians) in many Asian countries. Which often comes down to stereotypes, assigning positive ones to whites and negative ones to other foreigners (including other Asians). And in turn, many of those stereotypes originate from Western media. For example, Western stereotypes of Asians occasionally appear in Japanese media, but instead directed at Mainland Asians (such as Chinese people) rather than themselves.
Last edited:
The problem with this sort of thinking is that if we only wait for more diversity within the developer community to see more diverse characters, we'll be waiting a long time.
Along the same lines as what others have said, but when people are oppressed or discriminated against, they should not just hope that eventually things change on their own. You have to be proactive in order to change the status quo (and that is what this is: the status quo; people in general don't like to upset the "natural" order, which in this case is most of our media coming from a hetero white male perspective, because that's the "default").
Martin Luther King once said “…freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor, it must be demanded by the oppressed.” To apply it to this situation: people have got to demand developers do better in order for things to change. This can take the form of the purse, or not buying games that don't reflect what you want them to be doing, or complaining to them so they know for a fact what you don't like/want. Otherwise, how will change happen?
And what does "Forced diversity" even mean? We're not behind the scenes with the developers, so we have no insider knowledge to know if a minority character was forced on them (though we have plenty of examples of the opposite), so really, what does this even mean here?
If you as the creator decide on your own to make a character(s) "diverse", who's to say it was forced? If there's no specific reason the character has to be the default straight white male, why is making them a black female forced diversity? I see this used SO often in so many places, but no one can ever clearly define what it is and why it isn't just some made up construct in their warped minds.
I can bring up tons of research and studies on why diversity matters in media. So ANY inroads made to diversify what we consume, I welcome, including questioning creatives and making them contemplate why they aren't doing more in their own creations. Cause waiting for things to happen "naturally" will have us waiting for years longer than necessary, if not more.
What does doing things "properly" even mean in this context?
What you're describing is something that can only happen in an ideal world, not in this one. We live in a very messy, discordant world where people are free to interpret or misinterpret whatever you do. I can do something that was done innocently and with no malice to anyone, but others could take great offence to it. Maybe I screwed up somewhere, maybe they're reading too much into what I did. That's just the way of the world.
With that said, why should I or any other person worry about those who won't want to be progressive and remain racist/sexist/homophobic/etc.? Why should we let those people dictate how we conduct ourselves, when they are the ones who need to change, not us? The answer is not to regress ourselves and tippy-toe our way around those who would take offence. No progress will be made that way.
This is a constant struggle; this fight will never be permanently won.
I used to hold a similar view, but mostly applied to gay marriage. I, like many democrats at the time, thought that civil unions were good enough. It was progress, but it was slower, and hopefully through that longer amount of time society would gradually get used to the idea of gay people being able to get married and it not being a big deal. But later I realized: why should I, someone who is not gay, prevent those who are their rights, just to "keep the peace" and try to let society get there "naturally", which would take who knows how long?
Using your logic, the "proper way" for gay marriage to become legal would've been either letting the US Congress pass a law or putting it on the election ballot for the people to decide. Instead, we had a supreme court case determine it, which isn't the "proper way". Nine people, who were not elected, made such a huge declaration for an entire nation? That's not fair! But guess what? Now, it's not such a big deal. The world hasn't ended, your straight marriage wasn't invalidated and you didn't have to attend a gay marriage against your own will. It's been normalized, once people saw that life didn't change.
Yes, there are those who would love nothing more than to go back to the way things were. And one day, if they manage to attain enough power, they might have a shot of doing that. But we can't worry now for something we have no control of tomorrow. We can only remain vigilant, and be ready to fight back if the time comes.
So, don't let those who would fight progress win by not even having the fight in the first place. Don't let them set the terms. We all of good intent should do what must be done regardless of those who mean us ill will.
I love this quote. I mean, I don't love what this quote is saying, but I love using this quote to tell people to check their privilege.
Yes, in response to this. Oppressed groups the world over have had to fight to have their works of art acknowledged, so, as I said, it's weird to say perhaps it's the lit buff in you that has these opinions.
Joe Abercrombie was a good example of increasing diversity and why it's easy. It's a good read. That's why I linked it. :)
And I couldn't care less what people who deny equality think. They already hate me, or it wouldn't be an issue. I dont know why I should ever care about the opinions of people like that. It will never influence what I do or say.
To this day and beyond, I am still wondering when can we have female protagonists that are straight? Tired of this "Need No Man" bull. It's still okay to Want A Man.
Because Gaming culture is deeply degenerate and it is born from privilege.
From its promoters (YT, E3 pre shows, VGA pre shows, etc) to the consumers, the link in the chain comprises of bigoted degenerates in power and apathetic corporations that bend over backwards for to regressive regimes proving how really apathetic the "woke" brands and the puppet mouth pieces are.
From its promoters (YT, E3 pre shows, VGA pre shows, etc) to the consumers, the link in the chain comprises of bigoted degenerates in power and apathetic corporations that bend over backwards for to regressive regimes proving how really apathetic the "woke" brands and the puppet mouth pieces are.
It comes from a mixture of indifference, fear of change or outright bigoted views.
That being said - I'm often not a fan of some of the ideas that get thrown around in threads on Era to reimagine existing characters as a different race or sex. I remember there was a thread a while back about making Samus black for example, and that seems super unnecessary and boring to me. Just make a new character with a new story, please.
That being said - I'm often not a fan of some of the ideas that get thrown around in threads on Era to reimagine existing characters as a different race or sex. I remember there was a thread a while back about making Samus black for example, and that seems super unnecessary and boring to me. Just make a new character with a new story, please.
It’s totally weird for me to see people care so much about this stuff. Like, the whole concept of “relating” to a video game character is completely alien to me.
The whole “I won’t play this because a black man in fantasyland isn’t realistic” or “my immersion is broken when I am forced to play a woman” is straight up childish. If a game is good, the gender or race or religion or whatever of the pixels I’m looking at have literally zero importance to me.
The anti “SJW“ crowd is choosing such a weird hill to die on that it’s hard to believe they really mean it. It’s like... you’ve got to just be trolling for the hell of it, but there’s real-world people who are being hurt in real life because of your bigotry. Why are you doing this.
The whole “I won’t play this because a black man in fantasyland isn’t realistic” or “my immersion is broken when I am forced to play a woman” is straight up childish. If a game is good, the gender or race or religion or whatever of the pixels I’m looking at have literally zero importance to me.
The anti “SJW“ crowd is choosing such a weird hill to die on that it’s hard to believe they really mean it. It’s like... you’ve got to just be trolling for the hell of it, but there’s real-world people who are being hurt in real life because of your bigotry. Why are you doing this.
I would most likely have bought Death Stranding if Kojima had got Idris Elba instead of Norman Reedus. Reedus looks like an in shape Kidd Rock.
Because some argue that they want to keep authenticity of original story especially if it deals with real life story game or something which i agree literally if they decide to do that. But if the developer wants to astray from that notion, i also agree equally.
But if it is about multiplayer mode, i think it should include various races
But if it is about multiplayer mode, i think it should include various races
Games are at an interesting crossroads between art and commercial. The art crowd doesn't really want public outcry to influence the "artistic vision" of the game designers in order to satisfy the market. These people don't care about practicality. On the flip side there's those who just want to be entertained, aka the basic consumer. These are the people who don't care, it's just a videogame. Since most people don't consider games art, as long as it's fun the market will determine what's appropriate representation. I don't consider games art or cultural influencers, I'm sorry, let the developers do whatever they want. I don't oppose more girls in Smash Bros but I'm certainly not asking because I'm not the developer. So you end up with both sides against backseat game dev.
The SQW/alt right/Nazi adjacent/gamergate folks like The Quartering and Geeks + Gamers still got into a frenzy over Apex Legends' diverse cast. Diverse games can still sell well for sure, though.
Oh right, it's a prequel so yeah all the black people in The Last Of Us died. Yikes. That's not a good look, kind of a racial blindspot on the white writers.
You're always going to have people like this, but at least in this case they seem to be a vocal minority since Apex Legends is a successful game and as someone who doesn't search youtube for white power channels I've literally never seen anyone complain about the characters.
On these discussions I always end up looking like "but who's complainign about it" and I realize I just don't navigate those circles nor do I look for these videos on my free time, and since I left twitter I largely don't notice much about non-games gaming news. I'm very out of the loop for these issues, and I know they exists, but I have to go out of my way to know about them, so if what I'm about to say sounds like I have no idea what's going on, I apologize.
The SQW/alt right/Nazi adjacent/gamergate folks like The Quartering and Geeks + Gamers still got into a frenzy over Apex Legends' diverse cast. Diverse games can still sell well for sure, though.
I applaud all intents for more diversity in gaming design. I am critical of diversity for the sake of diversity (but that won't stop me for enjoying a game, to be honest) , but the thing is: when a character is well written and compelling, I don't think about his sexuality, gender or race as anything else but parts of the character. I enjoy games with little plot (in which case, these traits don't really affect my enjoyment of the game), and plot heavy games, which if they are well written, I will enjoy nevermind the character traits.
I like to think people like me are the majority of gamers (the "I don't care what the character is" crowd), but I'm very aware of people who feel very offended by female, LGBT or minority characters. These people, by an large, have a characteristic, a personality trait, that unifies that demography: they are idiots.
I'm not white, but you guys are definitely just as racist as the other side with speech like this. Be better.