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SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
13,738
Earth
"Cheryl Man is usually the only one wearing a face mask on her New York City subway train. She notices this, but other people on the train notice, too. Usually she just gets odd stares from other commuters. But on Tuesday morning, when she was walking to school, a group of teens jeered at her and coughed in her direction.

"I felt very humiliated and misunderstood," says Man, a 20-year-old student and research assistant who is ethnically Chinese.

Man also feels the stigma at her workplace, where she keeps her mask on. None of her colleagues wear a face mask, and some of them have asked her if she is sick.

"Why do they think it's about me? It's a civic duty," she says. "If I have a mask on, and if—touch wood—I'm infected, I could cut the chain off where I am. That could save a lot of people."

"As COVID-19 continues to spread globally, it has become clear there are two schools of thought in regards to face masks for the public. "

On the one hand is the view shared by Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in Vanderbilt University's Division of Infectious Diseases, who says that medical masks commonly worn by members of the public do not fit snugly around the nose, cheeks and chin.

"And if there's a general recommendation that people wear face masks, we won't have enough supply for healthcare workers," he says, adding that his colleagues have already been reporting shortages. "The priority should be face masks to use in the healthcare environment, rather than in our community."

But, David Hui, a respiratory medicine expert at the Chinese University of Hong Kong who studied the 2002 to 2003 outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) extensively, says it's "common sense" that wearing a mask would protect against infectious diseases like COVID-19.

"If you are standing in front of someone who is sick, the mask will give some protection," Hui says. "The mask provides a barrier from respiratory droplets, which is predominantly how the virus spreads."

He also says that the role of a face mask may be especially important in the epidemic due to the nature of the virus. Patients with COVID-19 often have mild or even no symptoms, and some researchers believe it can also be transmitted when patients are asymptomatic—meaning patients can be contagious and don't know they're sick.

Hui adds that the lack of solid evidence supporting the effectiveness of masks against the virus is no reason to dismiss its use, because there may never be definitive scientific proof. A properly controlled study would be impossible to conduct ethically, he explains. "You can't randomize people to not wear a mask, and some to wear a mask, and then expose them all to the virus," he says.

Joseph Tsang, an infectious disease specialist who also worked as a consultant for the city's Hospital Authority, says the purpose of wearing a mask is two-fold. "Wearing a mask is not just for protecting yourself from getting infected, but also minimizing the chance of potential infection harboring in your body from spreading to people around you," he tells TIME.

Tsang says the three layers of a surgical mask filter help reduce the risk of contact with droplets, through which the virus is transmitted. "Whenever you foresee to have someone within two to three meters (6.5 to 10 feet) apart, then it's better to wear a mask," Tsang adds."

time.com

Why Face Masks Are Encouraged in Asia, but Shunned in the U.S.

While wearing a mask in the face of the COVID-19 outbreak is second nature to people in parts of Asia, health experts in the West suggest otherwise

So...Reason not to wear a mask is...supply, which is a issue that can be solved by making more mask, people not know how to wear a mask, which can be solved by educating them how to wear one?

And a lack of research on whether it is useful or not, because there is no ethical way to conduct such a test, then the only way is to see actual case where population wear and one don't?
 

MasterYoshi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,037
I personally want to wear a mask for even a false sense of security during this. Could be good for my mental well being while working in an extremely packed grocery store.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,010
Masks make people here feel uncomfortable as it makes things feel very serious, also the belief that the person wearing the mask is sick.
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
3,673
earth
I found some dust masks at a store a few days ago. Will that offer the kind of protection this article is saying I may get from wearing medical masks?
 

exodus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,951
This is an Asian cultural norm that the whole world needs to adopt in the future. Even if it's to prevent the spread of the common cold, it's just plain courteous.
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,664
Masks are not proven effective and may even be counterproductive but no one should make fun of someone who chooses to wear one. I don't expect Americans to ever get used to wearing masks like this.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
I wear them all the time outside here in Bangkok. Almost everyone does. Not sure what I'd do if I was in the US.
 

Teh_Lurv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,098
I found some dust masks at a store a few days ago. Will that offer the kind of protection this article is saying I may get from wearing medical masks?

I found an unused leftover mask I bought from Home Depot back when I was doing basement spring cleaning last year and had the same question. Check the mask and the packaging. If the mask or packaging is labeled N95 it should filter out viruses according to the CDC:

www.cdc.gov

Healthcare Workers

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.
 
OP
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SilentPanda

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
13,738
Earth
Let's hope that changes after this. And let's hope we manage to get more masks.

The machinary isn't that...complicated from looking at it, there isn't a real reason that other government with more resource can't get their own production running within a month.

"The 60 production lines, which normally take from four to six months to complete, were set up in 25 days — before the scheduled one-month deadline. The 15 manufacturers will produce a total of 72 million face masks for the government in exchange for the machinery.
The government has banned the export of face masks since January, and the island nation's existing manufacturers can produce four million face masks a day. With the new production lines starting operation, the number of masks produced in Taiwan is expected to reach 10 million daily by mid-March."

www.taiwannews.com.tw

Taiwan sets up 60 face mask production lines in a month | Taiwan News | 2020-03-06 12:46:00

Daily production of face masks projected to reach 10 million by mid-March | 2020-03-06 12:46:00
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
So...Reason not to wear a mask is...supply, which is a issue that can be solved by making more mask, people not know how to wear a mask, which can be solved by educating them how to wear one?

N95 masks need to be properly fit to offer protection. If you don't do that, it's not going to offer protective benefits. It might make you feel good, but it is a false sense of security.

Wearing a mask if you are sick is recommended as it helps prevent transmission to others.
 

gutshot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
Toscana, Italy
Are Asian countries having to shutdown all businesses and large gatherings to deal with the spread of COVID-19? It certainly seems like most are not having to go to such drastic measures. I wonder if everyone wearing masks helps with that?
 

Nude_Tayne

Member
Jan 8, 2018
3,673
earth
I found an unused leftover mask I bought from Home Depot back when I was doing basement spring cleaning last year and had the same question. Check the mask and the packaging. If the mask or packaging is labeled N95 it should filter out viruses according to the CDC:

www.cdc.gov

Healthcare Workers

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.
Lol I'm sure the dust masks I managed to snag for $1.99 each at my local grocery store last week aren't N95.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,459
I notice in stores now doctors and nurses are coming up to mask wearing strangers and letting them know they are not effective. They are trying to get the word out to the public at large.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,589
I want to wear a mask, but I can't find any.

But it also seems there is cultural resistance. If the local healthcare people are taking it upon themselves to go up to people in public and say "your mask isn't helping", that's pretty huge. Seems Westerners need to figure the fuck out what the hell is going on.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
This is an Asian cultural norm that the whole world needs to adopt in the future. Even if it's to prevent the spread of the common cold, it's just plain courteous.

A better solution would be to normalize sick pay and create universal healthcare so people don't go out while sick.

To bad even in a pandemic our leaders can't even agree on that.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
They also don't work the way most people use them, which is to prevent the virus from getting to you.

Even in Asia, most of them use it wrong.

They are supposed to be snug, replaced every couple of hours and need to be fitted correctly.

it works marvelously to prevent you spraying viruses on people but Let's be real, that's not how most people use them for. It's a false sense of security.
 
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SilentPanda

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
13,738
Earth
N95 masks need to be properly fit to offer protection. If you don't do that, it's not going to offer protective benefits. It might make you feel good, but it is a false sense of security.

Wearing a mask if you are sick is recommended as it helps prevent transmission to others.

That's why you have education

From Singapore Ministry of Health
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,182
Indonesia
Y'all can keep your "but what about healthcare who need the masks badly?" and "but it's not useful!" arguments aside and start making your own masks.

It's much better than nothing.




Effectiveness-of-DIY-homemade-masks-vs-surgical-masks-at-filtering-coronavirus.jpg
 

Cosmonaut X

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,947
Said in another thread, but I've relented and ordered a handful of suitable masks for our household. My thinking isn't so much that they will prevent any of us getting infected - my wife works for the local Council in a role that brings her into regular contact with a whole range of the public - but that if my wife does come down with it and needs isolated at home, we can maybe at least slow transmission by her using protective masks and gloves so that both of us aren't knocked out by it at the same time. With four daughters to consider, having at least one parent up and able to manage their care for a few extra days is worth taking a punt on masks & gloves.
 

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,975
"If you are standing in front of someone who is sick, the mask will give some protection," Hui says. "The mask provides a barrier from respiratory droplets, which is predominantly how the virus spreads."

This part is proven not to be enough protection multiple times over mainly as it does not cover your entire face and eyes. Plus only N95 will truly block the virus from getting through the mask itself.

He also says that the role of a face mask may be especially important in the epidemic due to the nature of the virus. Patients with COVID-19 often have mild or even no symptoms, and some researchers believe it can also be transmitted when patients are asymptomatic—meaning patients can be contagious and don't know they're sick.


This part is correct. Problem is after about ~20 minutes moisture saturation occurs through the mask so the exterior threat begins to increase again for those infected.
 

DickGrayson

Alt Account
Member
Jan 30, 2020
941
Encouraging everyone to wear masks is going to distribute resources to the wrong people.

If you aren't sick, wearing a mask (even properly) is not a great way to reduce your exposure. You are still going to be touching exposed surfaces and your face.

If you are sick, wearing a mask is good to redirect the majority of particles that you expel through coughing or sneezing, even if worn incorrectly.

It's not about cultural differences, it's about actual effectiveness. It sort of like wearing gloves thinking that will reduce exposure... it won't.
 

Crayolan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,767
Masks are more effective at preventing already sick people from spreading their illness than they are at keeping healthy people from catching sickness. You're much more likely to touch something infected with your hands than you are to have someone sneeze/cough directly in your face.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
It makes a lot of sense for people who live in cities and especially those who take public transportation.

But you can't see someones face and that might take some getting used to.
 

Syriel

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
11,088
That's why you have education

From Singapore Ministry of Health


It's not as simple as a YouTube video.

Even medical professionals (who are highly educated) are required to have regular fit checks.

Your average person isn't going to a professional fitting for a N95, and they're not going to do it right after a video which, again, renders it a wasted resource.

This is why CDC guidance is to wear a mask if you are sick. The best point to contain the spread is at the at the source of an infection point.
 

Jimmypython

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,533
Masks are for already sick people not to spread or for high risk ppl (health care worker etc) not to infect.

Healthy ppl don't need them as long as the air around public isn't filled with deadly virus
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
And afaik, thier use stemmed from air pollution during the industrialization of many Asian centuries. They also don't work too good for that either.

I think it's just a psychological adaptation of people trying to have some form of control in thier lives. From the anxiety induced by rapid social and economical changes to invisible microbes to social pressures/ isolation that is now felt by a lot of people in many Asian countries. It's basically the eastern equivalent of headphones as social signal.
 

HMD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,300
Masks are highly effective, especially if they're worn by everyone. It's just that the sudden mass shortages caused critical personnel to lose access to masks (Doctors, Nurses, etc...). But South Korea, Singapore and China prove that masks definitely work.

In my country, the ministry of health has a bunch of factories working 24/7 to produce masks for everyone and the message that masks are not essential is no longer played up in media.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Masks are highly effective, especially if they're worn by everyone. It's just that the sudden mass shortages caused critical personnel to lose access to masks (Doctors, Nurses, etc...). But South Korea, Singapore and China prove that masks definitely work.

In my country, the ministry of health has a bunch of factories working 24/7 to produce masks for everyone and the message that masks are not essential is no longer played up in media.
No, most studies show that they do not work. The other things that those countries did are what is workinG, not the mask themselves.
 

DrewFu

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt-account
Banned
Apr 19, 2018
10,360
I don't see how wearing them to prevent catching the virus does much good. If you came in contact with the virus, it would still be on your hands, your skin, your hair and your clothes.

There is a reason why health professionals are wearing hazmat suits if they're going to be in contact with the virus, and not just a basic mask.
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,589
Yeah this is definitely one case where I'm completely uninterested in arguing it out with the standard American know-it-all. I'm observing other cultures that did a lot better with the virus, and I'm wanting to do the thing they did.

Mask wearing and almost obsessive handwashing and you cover a lot of bases.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,945
The situation largely comes down to our shared cultural memory and how it impacts both policy decisions and everyday behavior. Western countries haven't had the problems with air pollution or some of the smaller epidemics that countries in Asia have faced in recent decades, so to the average person there has not been any familiarity with them and policy makers could largely ignore them, despite their importance as a basic tool for addressing public health. This epidemic will lead to policy changes that secure a domestic manufacturing supply of masks and will help encourage people to use them more frequently in the future when they are available to the public in substantial numbers
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
The one thing that I do not see get repeated often enough is disinfecting your phone. Like that would do a whole more good than actually telling people to wear masks.

Wash your hands, wipe your phones then wash your hands again while letting your phone dry.

If you aren't doing that, you are just retransfering the germs back and forth in your home.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,693
If the local healthcare people are taking it upon themselves to go up to people in public and say "your mask isn't helping", that's pretty huge. Seems Westerners need to figure the fuck out what the hell is going on.
Healthcare workers aren't going to start recommending things that are shown to have minimal impact, instead they push the things that have major impact (social distancing, washing hands constantly, etc)
 

Akira86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,589
Healthcare workers aren't going to start recommending things that are shown to have minimal impact, instead they push the things that have major impact (social distancing, washing hands constantly, etc)
But have they even studied to see if the impact is minimal? Are all the countries in Asia just fooled, and under the power of Big Mask?
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,182
Indonesia
I don't see how wearing them to prevent catching the virus does much good. If you came in contact with the virus, it would still be on your hands, your skin, your hair and your clothes.

There is a reason why health professionals are wearing hazmat suits if they're going to be in contact with the virus, and not just a basic mask.
Wearing a mask is not the only way to prevent contact with the virus, it's just one of the ways. Washing your hands regularly is also one of the ways to prevent it.

But if you choose to use both prevention methods (among others, like social distancing), wouldn't it mean better than just relying on one?
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,693
But have they even studied to see if the impact is minimal? Are all the countries in Asia just fooled, and under the power of Big Mask?
Yes, there have been multiple studies that show that while masks help, they don't help that much. Asia isn't "fooled" it's just become more of a cultural thing there where that minimal impact thing is something many have adopted. Minimal is still something.
 
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SilentPanda

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
13,738
Earth
No, most studies show that they do not work. The other things that those countries did are what is workinG, not the mask themselves.
2008 study published in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases

"when used correctly, masks are highly effective in preventing the spread of viral infections. Family members of children with flu-like illnesses who used the masks properly were 80 percent less likely to be diagnosed with the illness. Surprisingly, the difference between types of masks used was insignificant. "


Another study published in the Annals of Internal Medicine reported similar results. Researchers looked at 400 people who had the flu. They found that family members reduced their risk of getting the flu by 70 percent when they washed their hands often and wore surgical masks.

annals.org

Facemasks and Hand Hygiene to Prevent Influenza Transmission in Households: A Cluster Randomized Trial: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 151, No 7

Background: Few data are available about the effectiveness of nonpharmaceutical interventions for preventing influenza virus transmission. Objective: To investigate whether hand hygiene and use of facemasks prevents household transmission of influenza. Design: Cluster randomized, controlled...

Other studies found promising results outside of the household. For example, one such study was conducted by a team of researchers from the University of MichiganTrusted Source on more than 1,000 students living in residence halls. They assigned the student to groups: those who wore masks, those who wore masks and practiced hand hygiene, and those who did neither. The results showed that those who wore masks in residence halls and practiced good handwashing reduced their risk of flu-like illness by an 75 percent.

journals.plos.org

Facemasks, Hand Hygiene, and Influenza among Young Adults: A Randomized Intervention Trial

Limited vaccine availability and the potential for resistance to antiviral medications have led to calls for establishing the efficacy of non-pharmaceutical measures for mitigating pandemic influenza. Our objective was to examine if the use of face masks and hand hygiene reduced rates of...
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Wearing a mask is not the only way to prevent contact with the virus, it's just one of the ways. Washing your hands regularly is also one of the ways to prevent it.

But if you choose to use both prevention methods (among others, like social distancing), wouldn't it mean better than just relying on one?
Yes but creating a false sense of security and medical professionals losing out essential supply that they actually need is a very real thing.