Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,497
Dang...yeah as a huge fan of Ivalice the viera has always been just the fanservice race which sucks. It's really annoying too beacuse Fran isn't the fanservice character when we get to look at her character. So the outfit feels tacked on. Hell the viera race as a whole doesn't really work as the fanservice race, being one of the most serious races in the setting...that just happens to weary incredibly uncomfortable lingerie. Even in the tactics series, the viera's outfits are usually the most skimpy and fanservice heavy. I do hope they add male viera and at least make them just as skimpy but since the viera are an all female race in their source I'm not sure they will.

Also, I find it super annoying that we keep getting all-female races...where apparently they all decided that the best way to dress was in the most uncomfortable clothing imaginable that was specifically made to titillate the male sex they don't have.
I don't think its a female only race, Just that The Women run the place and there is just a lower population of Viera Men so they are pretty much not allowed out.

They always seemed like a race that put on enough clothes so that other races weren't offended but really didn't give a fuck. The only thing besides that I think the Males should keep is the heels because Viera Feet are weird Rabbit shit so heels and wedges are the only things that look right on them.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,182
I don't think its a female only race, Just that The Women run the place and there is just a lower population of Viera Men so they are pretty much not allowed out.
That was exactly the same narrative with Mithras in FFXI and Miqotes in FFXIV 1.0. SE really doesn't give much of a fuck on writting excuses anymore lol
 

MochaKoffee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,901
Yeah, that was the original excuse for no catboys being in 1.0, but they gave in when 2.0 came around. Don't remember the excuse for Roegadyn, but that was probably a XI thing. I doubt that it's going to end up being gender-locked, if only because Yoshida won't want to listen to it again and because they've shown concept art for male Viera, but it is weird.

On another note, the new AF for Red Mage is giving women another dang skirt, while men get pants.
At least we'll be closer to a Maria glamour when it's dyable, I guess.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,263
I don't think its a female only race, Just that The Women run the place and there is just a lower population of Viera Men so they are pretty much not allowed out.

They always seemed like a race that put on enough clothes so that other races weren't offended but really didn't give a fuck. The only thing besides that I think the Males should keep is the heels because Viera Feet are weird Rabbit shit so heels and wedges are the only things that look right on them.
It’s amazing how in game lore keeps creating these scenarios where attractive female characters walk around with no clothes on, showing their tits and ass to the player. What a fortunate coincidence they are all stunningly attractive females!
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,497
That was exactly the same narrative with Mithras in FFXI and Miqotes in FFXIV 1.0. SE really doesn't give much of a fuck on writting excuses anymore lol
I mean I think its pretty cool to have races like that because there are Animals who operate like that and I like having shit like that in sentient races to diversify them. I mean Hyena's are run as a hard Matriarchy with all the females in the group having higher social standing than even the highest man and they aren't allowed to do much outside fighting some Hyena clans and defending the group. They aren't allowed to roam really and just used as breaders.

Though I didn't know they had that type of race in ff11. I wonder If they are going to make the males alot shorter than the females because Veira females are tall as shit.
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,497
It’s amazing how in game lore keeps creating these scenarios where attractive female characters walk around with no clothes on, showing their tits and ass to the player. What a fortunate coincidence they are all stunningly attractive females!
To me they make them all attractive because its cheaper because there almost no ugly people in Final Fantasy. I think the Uggliest race in Final Fantasy is the Big Pig-Orc Guys from FF12. The Bangaa are even weirdly attractive in that game and they are weird Ant-eater people.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
I don't think its a female only race, Just that The Women run the place and there is just a lower population of Viera Men so they are pretty much not allowed out.

They always seemed like a race that put on enough clothes so that other races weren't offended but really didn't give a fuck. The only thing besides that I think the Males should keep is the heels because Viera Feet are weird Rabbit shit so heels and wedges are the only things that look right on them.
1. No, Male viera live in their own villages, the excuse here is that they are even more isolationist than woman viera villages and as such only communicate with said woman viera villages.

2. The Tactics series show the Viera in a variety of clothing, including clothes that cover the full body and since these are viera exclusive classes, it seems silly to summarize that they only wear clothes because they have to.

3. There is a difference between wearing enough clothes to "count as clothed" and wearing the various overtly tight a skimpy bedwear the Viera wear.

4. Even if there was, we are now so far into the Thermian argument that it misses the fact that these rabbit people are wearing skimpy clothing manly to titillate the reader.
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,497
1. No, Male viera live in their own villages, the excuse here is that they are even more isolationist than woman viera villages and as such only communicate with said woman viera villages.

2. The Tactics series show the Viera in a variety of clothing, including clothes that cover the full body and since these are viera exclusive classes, it seems silly to summarize that they only wear clothes because they have to.

3. There is a difference between wearing enough clothes to "count as clothed" and wearing the various overtly tight a skimpy bedwear the Viera wear.

4. Even if there was, we are now so far into the Thermian argument that it misses the fact that these rabbit people are wearing skimpy clothing manly to titillate the reader.
They must have Been Tactics advance games because the only Veira I remembered were the ones from FF12 until I saw the pics from up in the thread. No didn't assume they wore skimpy clothing to titillate. I assumed they wore skimpy clothing because they are rabbit people and they fuck all the time and that shit is just ease of access. I assume the Veira men just wear some sort of shawl shit and a thong.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,513
They must have Been Tactics advance games because the only Veira I remembered were the ones from FF12 until I saw the pics from up in the thread. No didn't assume they wore skimpy clothing to titillate. I assumed they wore skimpy clothing because they are rabbit people and they fuck all the time and that shit is just ease of access. I assume the Veira men just wear some sort of shawl shit and a thong.
Dear god
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,182
I mean I think its pretty cool to have races like that because there are Animals who operate like that and I like having shit like that in sentient races to diversify them. I mean Hyena's are run as a hard Matriarchy with all the females in the group having higher social standing than even the highest man and they aren't allowed to do much outside fighting some Hyena clans and defending the group. They aren't allowed to roam really and just used as breaders.

Though I didn't know they had that type of race in ff11. I wonder If they are going to make the males alot shorter than the females because Veira females are tall as shit.
It could be cool if they did something meaningful about it. Instead they only do it for the fanservice and applies the same excuse on all their animal races, showing how little they care.
 

Ogodei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,045
North Jackson High
The third design is really... wow. That's a lot of regression in the span of three games.
It extends to the writing too. Grasshopper made some really cool women characters with intriguing backstories (Shinobu among them), but they always lack agency in the plot and end up revolving around the men of the story, like how Bad Girl is killed in the first game and serves as a motivator for Badman in the 3rd without really getting into the story of Bad Girl herself which could be pretty cool (Badman looks at a picture of her in the opening sequence and she's much different from the sadistic, mentally broken alcoholic that Travis kills in the first game and there's probably a hell of a story there).

Shinobu comes in with her own story, gets tied to Travis. Sylvia has her own story, gets tied to Travis. Jeane *wilfully* ties her entire story arc to Travis (something of her wanting to be killed by him). Holly Summers' fate is seen as a tragedy, by Travis.

The only two who sort of get away from that are Margaret Moonlight and Alice Twilight, whose story is only hinted at and whose fates are portrayed as tragic, but more in the vain of them being stuck in the assassin life rather than them being women.

Margaret's theme song

shows some potential in terms of writing a balanced woman character as far as a nerd-self-reference series like No More Heroes can.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
They must have Been Tactics advance games because the only Veira I remembered were the ones from FF12 until I saw the pics from up in the thread. No didn't assume they wore skimpy clothing to titillate. I assumed they wore skimpy clothing because they are rabbit people and they fuck all the time and that shit is just ease of access. I assume the Veira men just wear some sort of shawl shit and a thong.
Uh...yeah it was from tactics. I literally posted a bunch of artwork from A2 showing that the viera have varied outfits beyond 'sexy bedwear'

I hope they do add male viera because the last race being female only would be dumb as rocks.



That outfit is the standard "village clothing" from FFXII so that's not too surprising. Do wish they went with the Tactics outfits because at least there are more sensible designs for the classes (the majority of them are actual things that class would wear...then again they also have a cheerleader outfit for the archery class because I give up).








Really wish that these outfits were shown instead of "let's copy Fran's outfit despite it not making sense even in her own game".
And I really need to ask you why you think a race that divides its species into different villages based on their sex somehow have sex all the time. Especially since none of that is even close to what happens in any Ivalice game. The Viera have always been more based in nature and harmony than "sex: the race".

And even IF it was, why are we using the Thermian argument here to begin with? The problem are that these clothes were made to titilate the male audience, long before any excuses (which the Viera don't have) instory could be created.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
Yeah, that's sort of the issue with most Squenix garbage - the porn wear is never justified at all. It might be retconned as an attempt to justify it, but that doesn't, in fact, justify what was just yet another creepy, sexist Japanese artist wanting to put their creepy, sexist Japanese art into the world. And even if there were a Thermian argument, that's still what it would be. The justifications for these kinds of design boil down to, "I like sexist designs and I want them in video games". Stop lying to yourself, stop lying to others, be honest, and maybe take some time to reflect and figure out what's going on that's making you so attached to something so perverse.
 
I remember that there was a really good post in either this thread or perhaps one similar in discussion that broke down the false equivalency between violence and sexualization, but I can't find it. It's not the threadmarked one here, but it was of similar quality (and if I remember right, written by one of the regulars in this thread). Anyone happen to have an idea as to what I might be thinking of? I wanted to borrow some of the key points for use in a discussion elsewhere.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
10,452
I remember that there was a really good post in either this thread or perhaps one similar in discussion that broke down the false equivalency between violence and sexualization, but I can't find it. It's not the threadmarked one here, but it was of similar quality (and if I remember right, written by one of the regulars in this thread). Anyone happen to have an idea as to what I might be thinking of? I wanted to borrow some of the key points for use in a discussion elsewhere.
Perhaps you mean Llyrwenne's great posts?
https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot2-i-have-no-pants-and-i-must-scream-read-op.65064/post-15598588
https://www.resetera.com/threads/why-women-criticise-sexualised-character-designs-ot2-i-have-no-pants-and-i-must-scream-read-op.65064/post-15890525

Hidden content
You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.
 

Rhaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
716
Viera Skimpy clothing Aside The FFXIV Art team does come up with genuine great designs more often then not .

Just look at Y'shtola's new getup for the new expansion .





 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,956
Near as I'm aware, it's a pretty epic clusterfuck. They've already dumped absurd amounts of resources into it for a very long time now and don't really have anything to show for it, but because it was "the game" still seem to assume that the remake will make its money back. Even if, as more time passes, it's becoming known as one of those games that definitely doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I actually think the PSX has a lot of classics, but I think most of the classics aren't the games that sold millions of copies. That follows from other media though. Popular doesn't really coincide with "good" or "is of interest beyond the surface appeal".






Also, a great video from The Late Show with Stephen Colbert and an Interview with Ellen Page:
Game not being shown != there is nothing to show. SQEX generally doesn't promote games too heavily until 6-12 months prior to release and they have given a reason in KHIII's heavy promotion as to why FFVII Remake is being kept under wraps.

FFVIIR started development in 2014. It hasn't yet been all that crazy amount of time that it's been in development, especially with the move back to in-house development that slowed things down for a bit.

Knowing how stingy SQEX can be with their budgets (they aren't R* or anywhere close), they probably haven't spend any kind of crazy amounts of money on the project yet, especially not in the first couple of years in development. And for a whole (assumed) trilogy of full fledged games, the planning & first part taking some time to lay out the foundation for the rest of the saga isn't necessarily all that surprising or alarming (yet). Once they get Part 1 out and assuming they have a solid foundation in it and it's not some FFXIV 1.0 level disaster, they should be able to crank out subsequent parts much faster (see: FFXIII -> its sequels, FFXIV initially & ARR vs. how efficiently they can push out big expansions every couple of years without having to have the entire company participate like they did with ARR).

Like, we have everyone from director to producers and even the CEO of the company saying that the project is now advancing smoothly and even crushing some deadlines they've set for the project. Plus they have some very high expectations for the next fiscal year, IIRC. The kind that only games on the level of a new FF can fulfill, yet they don't have anything else big announced for the foreseeable future (Avengers is definitely a next gen or at most cross gen 2021 or beyond game). I'd give it until Summer or TGS at the very latest before there is much reason to panic. If we don't see anything all that substantial at E3, Gamescom or TGS, then I'd start to worry they are still struggling (beyond what is fairly normal for projects of this scope & quality). Currently it's not the smoothest project ever, all things considered, but it doesn't sound like it's on the level of a clusterfuck either.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
I'll just say that for a AAA project, 4 years with little to show for it isn't typical, regardless of media. And for most AAA titles, the typical dev time is between 2 and 4 years maximum, so we're already past what would be typical for a dev cycle. This has happened more and more with Squenix's bigger titles, and most of it is due to mismanagement and (though this is a personal opinion) diva directors rarely being reigned in.
 

Dragmire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
509
Objectification aside, it's pretty dumb that the female Viera's are all wearing Fran's outfit by default.(if they are) Especially since Fran is already in the game. Is she the leader of the Viera in FFXIV? Meh, the outfit has always been bad. A library of Lore will never justify it.

Don't know if anyone here saw, but Nier:A will have a collaboration in this game. That's right. Double the thongs.
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,503
The Viera reveal was exactly what I expected. The only reason why they are even considered for FF XIV is because of Fran so course all the Viera were going to look like her. There's no way they would pull from the Tactics games for the base design. I doubt most people even remember that they were in those games.
 

spiritfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,460
I very much prefer the Tactics Advanced depictions of Viera over FFXII, and was always disappointed that they turned out be the Amazons of the game.
 

Choppasmith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,695
Beaumont, CA
The Ivalice races had such sweet art in FFTA

Fran has always been a shit design
I remember feeling it was such a huge step down from Yoshida’s FFT art, but looking at it now... yeah. Same as FF8. I thought it was okay back in the day (I really didn’t care for that shift away from the more high fantasy and Amano designs of earlier FFs), but looking at it now, it really did a lot right imo. Still love the music and the designs are great (unless I’m being dumb and missing something again :p)

And I LOVE Fran as a character but her outfit is certainly... yeah.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
Objectification aside, it's pretty dumb that the female Viera's are all wearing Fran's outfit by default.(if they are) Especially since Fran is already in the game. Is she the leader of the Viera in FFXIV? Meh, the outfit has always been bad. A library of Lore will never justify it.

Don't know if anyone here saw, but Nier:A will have a collaboration in this game. That's right. Double the thongs.
As far as I can tell, no, so it makes even less sense.

I remember feeling it was such a huge step down from Yoshida’s FFT art, but looking at it now... yeah. Same as FF8. I thought it was okay back in the day (I really didn’t care for that shift away from the more high fantasy and Amano designs of earlier FFs), but looking at it now, it really did a lot right imo. Still love the music and the designs are great (unless I’m being dumb and missing something again :p)

And I LOVE Fran as a character but her outfit is certainly... yeah.
Fran as a character is so much wasted potential. She's Balthier's partner yet she gets so little lines in FFXII, even Revenant Wings she doesn't have a large role.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,457
They must have Been Tactics advance games because the only Veira I remembered were the ones from FF12 until I saw the pics from up in the thread. No didn't assume they wore skimpy clothing to titillate. I assumed they wore skimpy clothing because they are rabbit people and they fuck all the time and that shit is just ease of access. I assume the Veira men just wear some sort of shawl shit and a thong.
Even if that's the actual rationale, it's not like the developer was all "oh god, you know what? Rabbits have sex all the time! Then we have no choice but to make the Viera race also do that all the time! Thus we have no choice but to give all of them lingerie!" No, their hands were not exactly tied.

Rabbits also have many other types and traits. Somehow this is the one they chose to put forward, and I must question why, if not to titillate.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
8,182
Yoshida has always been a hack designing characters, especially women. People give him a pass because his drawings look cool.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,892
As far as I can tell, no, so it makes even less sense.



Fran as a character is so much wasted potential. She's Balthier's partner yet she gets so little lines in FFXII, even Revenant Wings she doesn't have a large role.
Didnt she kinda have her own story segment with her backstory in the viera forest with a pretty detailed description of her relationship with her people or did i imagine that? It’s been a while xO
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,497
Didnt she kinda have her own story segment with her backstory in the viera forest with a pretty detailed description of her relationship with her people or did i imagine that? It’s been a while xO
Yeah she had a nice back story about how and why she left the Veira forests. Also it was the main way we got any information about how their society works.
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,497
Even if that's the actual rationale, it's not like the developer was all "oh god, you know what? Rabbits have sex all the time! Then we have no choice but to make the Viera race also do that all the time! Thus we have no choice but to give all of them lingerie!" No, their hands were not exactly tied.

Rabbits also have many other types and traits. Somehow this is the one they chose to put forward, and I must question why, if not to titillate.
See if she was a Human with rabbit traits than maybe. But maybe because I had Bunnies when I was little when I played ff12 I just assumed they were Sapient Bunnies and subscribed them bunny behaviors. Being Relatively cool until threatened, being vegan/vegetarian, Fucking all the time when they have spare time, Also having weird Sexual behaviors. Also being relatively clean and not liking when I tried to put them in Sweaters because Baltimore winters can be hell.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
See if she was a Human with rabbit traits than maybe. But maybe because I had Bunnies when I was little when I played ff12 I just assumed they were Sapient Bunnies and subscribed them bunny behaviors. Being Relatively cool until threatened, being vegan/vegetarian, Fucking all the time when they have spare time, Also having weird Sexual behaviors. Also being relatively clean and not liking when I tried to put them in Sweaters because Baltimore winters can be hell.
What in the world are you on about?
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,513
With my girlfriend looking for more characters worth cosplaying, I went through the Fire Emblem catalogue because I hate myself. After heaps of zettai ryouiki infested trash, I stumble upon Titania. By god, her design is amazing. What the fuck happened?

What in the world are you on about?
Reads to me like he is justifying a personal fetish.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
With my girlfriend looking for more characters worth cosplaying, I went through the Fire Emblem catalogue because I hate myself. After heaps of zettai ryouiki infested trash, I stumble upon Titania. By god, her design is amazing. What the fuck happened?
Mobile games and Nintendo becoming weirdly even more accepting of the fetishistic elements of its past. Other than that it's difficult to explain. Others just blame it on Awakening.


Reads to me like he is justifying a personal fetish.
I get that, but why do something so creepy on a public forum?
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
Didnt she kinda have her own story segment with her backstory in the viera forest with a pretty detailed description of her relationship with her people or did i imagine that? It’s been a while xO
Yes but her contribution to the main plot is kind of miniscule which is what sucks. Also doesn't really explore the partnership between her and Balthier.

See if she was a Human with rabbit traits than maybe. But maybe because I had Bunnies when I was little when I played ff12 I just assumed they were Sapient Bunnies and subscribed them bunny behaviors. Being Relatively cool until threatened, being vegan/vegetarian, Fucking all the time when they have spare time, Also having weird Sexual behaviors. Also being relatively clean and not liking when I tried to put them in Sweaters because Baltimore winters can be hell.
...uh...wat.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,892
Yes but her contribution to the main plot is kind of miniscule which is what sucks. Also doesn't really explore the partnership between her and Balthier.
Considering the protagonist of the game had little to no connection to the main plot,world politics or even a reason to be there, at least fran made up by being an interesting character :T

they could have ditched Vaan and give her more stuff to to though, not gonna lie
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,721
See if she was a Human with rabbit traits than maybe. But maybe because I had Bunnies when I was little when I played ff12 I just assumed they were Sapient Bunnies and subscribed them bunny behaviors. Being Relatively cool until threatened, being vegan/vegetarian, Fucking all the time when they have spare time, Also having weird Sexual behaviors. Also being relatively clean and not liking when I tried to put them in Sweaters because Baltimore winters can be hell.
This discussion took a really weird turn...
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
Considering the protagonist of the game had little to no connection to the main plot,world politics or even a reason to be there, at least fran made up by being an interesting character :T

they could have ditched Vaan and give her more stuff to to though, not gonna lie
FFXII is kind of a masterclass in too many cooks. Or I guess, too many characters.

In any given RPG, there are typically a handful of meaningful characters, and just an utterly overwhelming number of completely meaningless characters. And they do them all dirty by simply mentioning them into existence and then never doing anything with them excepting franchise tie-ins at later points. Valkyrie Profile is one of the few exceptions to the rule I can think of and it's entirely because the format is structured as a series of mini-sodes, where each character is focused on with an extreme lens, so we get a close-up on who they are, what their motivations are, and how they came to be in the situation they're currently in. But that just... doesn't happen in the majority of video games.

Most video games pay characters lip service and it's one of the big reasons why people complain about game writing all the time.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
Considering the protagonist of the game had little to no connection to the main plot,world politics or even a reason to be there, at least fran made up by being an interesting character :T

they could have ditched Vaan and give her more stuff to to though, not gonna lie
FFXII is kind of a masterclass in too many cooks. Or I guess, too many characters.

In any given RPG, there are typically a handful of meaningful characters, and just an utterly overwhelming number of completely meaningless characters. And they do them all dirty by simply mentioning them into existence and then never doing anything with them excepting franchise tie-ins at later points. Valkyrie Profile is one of the few exceptions to the rule I can think of and it's entirely because the format is structured as a series of mini-sodes, where each character is focused on with an extreme lens, so we get a close-up on who they are, what their motivations are, and how they came to be in the situation they're currently in. But that just... doesn't happen in that majority of video games.

Most video games pay characters lip service and it's one of the major reasons why people complain about game writing all the time.
Didn't help that Vaan was added in late into development simply based on executive meddling to put a more "accepted protagonist" into the role rather than just give it straight to Ashe.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
Didn't help that Vaan was added in late into development simply based on executive meddling to put a more "accepted protagonist" into the role rather than just give it straight to Ashe.
Yes, but even without this, the ending of FFXII is still a confusing mess and the politics of the game are never structured in a way that a world could actually logically follow. It's a sort of pseudo-imperialism but also not and it's a magic aristocracy but also not and most of the stuff effectively has that caveat: "it's this, but also not". I got to a point where I just wanted to know, "ok, so what IS the government, exactly?" What does it believe in, or what do the groups believe in, what are their ideals, etc.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,892
FFXII is kind of a masterclass in too many cooks. Or I guess, too many characters.

In any given RPG, there are typically a handful of meaningful characters, and just an utterly overwhelming number of completely meaningless characters. And they do them all dirty by simply mentioning them into existence and then never doing anything with them excepting franchise tie-ins at later points. Valkyrie Profile is one of the few exceptions to the rule I can think of and it's entirely because the format is structured as a series of mini-sodes, where each character is focused on with an extreme lens, so we get a close-up on who they are, what their motivations are, and how they came to be in the situation they're currently in. But that just... doesn't happen in the majority of video games.

Most video games pay characters lip service and it's one of the big reasons why people complain about game writing all the time.
FF6 did just fine with a ginormous cast =/ but i guess the older RPG format allows for a better way to structure stuff as it would require less cscreentime/voice acting =/

Didn't help that Vaan was added in late into development simply based on executive meddling to put a more "accepted protagonist" into the role rather than just give it straight to Ashe.
Iirc the main character was supposed to be Basch, but he was too old for japanese audiences, I don't think Ashe was ever in that list, unfortunately =/, as she'd get a much better reception than some 40 year old dude in japan. They probably wanted to repeat the Zidane/Tidus formula of success =/ (Pretty much like Nier replicant vs gestalt situation that came up much later lol)
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
Yes, but even without this, the ending of FFXII is still a confusing mess and the politics of the game are never structured in a way that a world could actually logically follow. It's a sort of pseudo-imperialism but also not and it's a magic aristocracy but also not and most of the stuff effectively has that caveat: "it's this, but also not". I got to a point where I just wanted to know, "ok, so what IS the government, exactly?" What does it believe in, or what do the groups believe in, what are their ideals, etc.
To be fair, that's always been the problem of the Ivalice games. The political structure of the government is always just only important enough to be placed in the backdrop to justify the "small action unnoticed by historians are the true secret to saving the world" narrative these games always go for. That political structure gets even weirder in Revnant Wings.

FF6 did just fine with a ginormous cast =/ but i guess the older RPG format allows for a better way to structure stuff as it would require less cscreentime/voice acting =/


Iirc the main character was supposed to be Basch, but he was too old for japanese audiences, I don't think Ashe was ever in that list, unfortunately =/, as she'd get a much better reception than some 40 year old dude in japan. They probably wanted to repeat the Zidane/Tidus formula of success =/ (Pretty much like Nier replicant vs gestalt situation that came up much later lol)
Yes and no, the original main character was an amalgamation of Basch, Balthier, and a Vagrant Story character, these were split into Basch, Balthier, and Vaan with remaining traits being added to Ashe.

Also FFVI is also really good in juggling ensembles and a good game in general.
 

Dragmire

Member
Oct 25, 2017
509
It’s so obnoxious how SE always uses Vann to represent FFXII in other spin off games instead of Ashe.
She lost her family, husband, kingdom, and the gods chose her to be her fist.
New Dissidia.
SE: Let’s put fucking Vann.
New XII rep.
SE: Vayne. And make them look like rivals.
The mobile game does this too. There’s a new Interlude chapter and Vayne is in it so of course Vann is the one determined to confront him.
I don’t hate Vann but his reason for being and how he overshadowes Ashe just sucks.
The only good thing about him is watching people who love Fran’s design hate on his.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
It’s so obnoxious how SE always uses Vann to represent FFXII in other spin off games instead of Ashe.
She lost her family, husband, kingdom, and the gods chose her to be her fist.
New Dissidia.
SE: Let’s put fucking Vann.
New XII rep.
SE: Vayne. And make them look like rivals.
The mobile game does this too. There’s a new Interlude chapter and Vayne is in it so of course Vann is the one determined to confront him.
I don’t hate Vann but his reason for being and how he overshadowes Ashe just sucks.
The only good thing about him is watching people who love Fran’s design hate on his.
Wasn’t the original FFXII director ousted/quitted because of Vann? He was making a JRPG where the protagonist wasn’t *gasp* a teen pretty boy and instead was going for an older dude that didn’t look like he was in high school.

Vann was shoehorned it because #Japan, literally. Balthier would’ve made a way better MC.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,172
It’s so obnoxious how SE always uses Vann to represent FFXII in other spin off games instead of Ashe.
She lost her family, husband, kingdom, and the gods chose her to be her fist.
New Dissidia.
SE: Let’s put fucking Vann.
New XII rep.
SE: Vayne. And make them look like rivals.
The mobile game does this too. There’s a new Interlude chapter and Vayne is in it so of course Vann is the one determined to confront him.
I don’t hate Vann but his reason for being and how he overshadowes Ashe just sucks.
The only good thing about him is watching people who love Fran’s design hate on his.
It's so weird, Ashe is the main rival to Vayne. If anything it's Forsythe that's the main rival to Vaan, as his character is the true ani-thesis to the original goal of Vaan. Like, Vaan stops being relevant in FFXII like after Penelo is rescued and only has one more scene of importance...that's more crucial to Ashe's character arc than his.

I kinda wished i could see FFXII before the directors changed =/
Unfortunately the original director is stuck in the janitor's closet for all eternity.
 

GreenMamba

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,001
Wasn’t the original FFXII director ousted/quitted because of Vann? He was making a JRPG where the protagonist wasn’t *gasp* a teen pretty boy and instead was going for an older dude that didn’t look like he was in high school.

Vann was shoehorned it because #Japan, literally. Balthier would’ve made a way better MC.
Vaan wasn't the original protagonist, but he was always a part of the game plan and Matsuno didn't leave because of that particular change.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,622
FF6 did just fine with a ginormous cast =/ but i guess the older RPG format allows for a better way to structure stuff as it would require less cscreentime/voice acting =/
Yes, it did fine with a ginormous cast, but guess how it did it? Multiple series of mini-sodes that had a focus on various characters throughout the game! Terra and the children she took care of, the three parts after they are broken up after the raft ride, etc. Like, if you're going to have a huge cast, you need to find a way to keep the characters relevant and the only way to do that is to find a way to focus on them as individual or small groups of characters at various points.

The story also ultimately had a singular point of focus in Terra, just as Valkyrie Profile has a singular point of focus in Lenneth.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Iirc the main character was supposed to be Basch, but he was too old for japanese audiences, I don't think Ashe was ever in that list, unfortunately =/, as she'd get a much better reception than some 40 year old dude in japan. They probably wanted to repeat the Zidane/Tidus formula of success =/ (Pretty much like Nier replicant vs gestalt situation that came up much later lol)
Meanwhile in 2019 we continue to drown in young, clean shaven, generic looking, anime pretty boys. Older dudes are so fucking rare and even when they happen like in FFXV they happen for a very very small portion of a large game.

Seeing Noctis sport a beard and stache when older was such a breath of fresh air that it made me realize how we never see JRPG main protagonists with any type of facial hair (strictly the MCs, of course other party members are permitted to grow face hair). He also looks way way cooler and, dare I say, handsome as fuck with his beard. Too bad it happens for like 5% of the entire game.