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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Oct 25, 2017
9,935
Valkyrie Profile had old women AND old men! CRAZY!
I assure you that wouldn’t be the case if VP had a more traditional 5-8 JRPG party members. VP has dozens and dozens and dozens of recruits le characters like Suikoden. Of course they’d have to be a little more varied to fill the spaces.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,069
This discussion took a really weird turn...
Its a bit weird but Its how I make fantasy races when I write.I look around for awhile for a animal We know about about and then try to learn as much about that animals habits and traits and create a race of beings that embody those aspects, even the weird kind.

Back in the day it started when I made some crappy novel in High school and I was looking for a cool alien race concept and Me and my mom happened to watch a show on animal planet that talked about New Mexican Whip Tailed Lizards. They are an all female species that came from two local lizards banging and became their own thing. They lay eggs themselves and even go through with mating rituals with other females even though it isn't needed and I thought it was a cool concept for an alien race.

I made a shitty short novel on Deviantart about it and I also though the Asari was some type of play on the same concept but they turned into Alien space babes by throwing in the wrinkle about them banging mind banging other races for genetic variance.

But you see what I talking about. I used to think everyone did what I did and put things into two piles, Humans with animal traits or beings based of animals but being totally alien to how humans operate themselves.

I just kinda Assumed Veira were type 2 because they acted real alien like in the game and not like typical Catgirl/boy stuff I used to see in anime.
 

Mhj

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Member
Oct 30, 2017
879
I skimmed the first couple of pages but didn't find anything. Would be very nice to have a list of games with good female character designs. Hopefully it isn't depressingly short.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560
I assure you that wouldn’t be the case if VP had a more traditional 5-8 JRPG party members. VP has dozens and dozens and dozens of recruits le characters like Suikoden. Of course they’d have to be a little more varied to fill the spaces.
I'm not really sure what leads you to this conclusion?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
North Jackson High
With my girlfriend looking for more characters worth cosplaying, I went through the Fire Emblem catalogue because I hate myself. After heaps of zettai ryouiki infested trash, I stumble upon Titania. By god, her design is amazing. What the fuck happened?



Reads to me like he is justifying a personal fetish.
Fire Emblem character designs were very muted before Awakening. Here's the catgirl from the same game:



Those bare legs are about as gratuitous as it gets for the entire two games.

Even in the new age, Titania's not been subjected to the new objectification. She was the "Jeigan" of that game, meaning the overpowered character you get from the beginning who falls behind by the end of the game. Your panic-button sweeper for the early game who is a crutch because she'll waste much-needed EXP for weaker characters with better growth potential. Point is, she was never portrayed as a potential romance option (the only hint in the games is that she carried a flame for Ike's father, Greil, but Greil never remarried after killing his wife in a curse-induced berserker fury) and so didn't get caught up in efforts to retroactively make FE women into waifus.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,935
I'm not really sure what leads you to this conclusion?
When was the last time you say an old woman as a party member on a JRPG? If you have only 5-8 slots in your traditional JRPG party they never use one for an old woman.
Ma game with dozens and dozens of slots is easier to forego a slot or two for character types that would never be included in a more limited and traditional game.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,965
I'm not really sure what leads you to this conclusion?
I agree with him. Just look at most Japanese games with limited parties. If the game had 6 permanent party members and not a gallery you churn through leveling up and sending away, the likely hood of them locking in on older characters is significantly lower imo. Same with Chrono cross and it's huge potential cast. You see variety because unless the game is pure waifu bait and they have some integrity, they use that opportunity for some representation.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560
When was the last time you say an old woman as a party member on a JRPG? If you have only 5-8 slots in your traditional JRPG party they never use one for an old woman.
Ma game with dozens and dozens of slots is easier to forego a slot or two for character types that would never be included in a more limited and traditional game.
When was the last time you saw a jRPG with any cast diversity in the last ten years? It's hard to even know if such a thing would or could happen given the current state of jRPGs. It's why I ask what brings you to that conclusion given the current state of things.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,493
North Jackson High
On the "older women in JRPGs" comment along with the Titania thing, Titania was meant to be middle-aged or getting close to it, though the art doesn't portray her quite that way. One of the few times a woman of that age range shows up who isn't a mother.

I can't think of a time that an old (say, 55+) woman was playable in an RPG though.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,643
Honestly, the dumbest FE character designs generally got prior to Awakening was with the Pegasus Knights. The short dress thing with some light armor was a thing for a long, long time.


Still better than the likes of Sumia, though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560
Its a bit weird but Its how I make fantasy races when I write.I look around for awhile for a animal We know about about and then try to learn as much about that animals habits and traits and create a race of beings that embody those aspects, even the weird kind.

Back in the day it started when I made some crappy novel in High school and I was looking for a cool alien race concept and Me and my mom happened to watch a show on animal planet that talked about New Mexican Whip Tailed Lizards. They are an all female species that came from two local lizards banging and became their own thing. They lay eggs themselves and even go through with mating rituals with other females even though it isn't needed and I thought it was a cool concept for an alien race.

I made a shitty short novel on Deviantart about it and I also though the Asari was some type of play on the same concept but they turned into Alien space babes by throwing in the wrinkle about them banging mind banging other races for genetic variance.

But you see what I talking about. I used to think everyone did what I did and put things into two piles, Humans with animal traits or beings based of animals but being totally alien to how humans operate themselves.

I just kinda Assumed Veira were type 2 because they acted real alien like in the game and not like typical Catgirl/boy stuff I used to see in anime.
This does not make it easier to, "see what you're talking about."
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
The Viera look the way they do because Japan likes bunny girls. They have as many characteristics to real rabbits as Playboy bunnies do which is to say, almost none at all.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560

BigWinnie1

Banned
Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,069
The Viera look the way they do because Japan likes bunny girls. They have as many characteristics to real rabbits as Playboy bunnies do which is to say, almost none at all.
Just Like they like catgirls and doggirls. I had assumed based on how they were back in ff12 that there were more alien/fantasy racish than what they actually were. Look up the Advance tactics stuff They just seemed like human with bunny ears which colors them more in being unneeded in how much flesh they show off all the time.

Its why I like the Bangaa race, they look way different and act reasonably different from humans that to uninformed humans you wouldn't be able to realize which ones are male or female. To me they are how most other races should be portrayed.
 

BigWinnie1

Banned
Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,069
Your writing is completely incomprehensible. I literally do not know where to start and it just seems to jump from topic to topic with no explanation of how one piece is connected to another, or why.
Basically I'm saying that The way I write races was short minded because I extrapolated that onto alot of other peoples works when i was younger and didn't really break out of that until Mass Effect and I watched some star trek.

Basically what I am Saying I though Veira were a Bunny inspired race with weird bunny roots in their ways instead of what they actually are, Humans with bunny ears and some traits but pretty much just tall humans with different ears.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,627
I skimmed the first couple of pages but didn't find anything. Would be very nice to have a list of games with good female character designs. Hopefully it isn't depressingly short.
Honestly this would be a good idea to have, and threadmark the post too x_x
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
9,526
Meanwhile in 2019 we continue to drown in young, clean shaven, generic looking, anime pretty boys. Older dudes are so fucking rare
Older women even more so!

(I know your follow-up posts acknowledged that, I just want to repeat it lol)

When was the last time you saw a jRPG with any cast diversity in the last ten years? It's hard to even know if such a thing would or could happen given the current state of jRPGs. It's why I ask what brings you to that conclusion given the current state of things.
I don't know why you're arguing with him, he's right. JRPGs with vast casts have more room for diversity (which includes older characters), whereas JRPGs with smaller ensemble casts will always focus on pretty, samey teenagers with the "old hardened veteran" being a whooping 24 years old.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560
I don't know why you're arguing with him, he's right. JRPGs with vast casts have more room for diversity (which includes older characters), whereas JRPGs with smaller ensemble casts will always focus on pretty, samey teenagers with the "old hardened veteran" being a whooping 24 years old.
Not disagreeing so much as, "how would we know if it's even possible, given the current state of jRPGs?" There hasn't been a jRPG with an interesting cast in a decade or more.
 
Oct 25, 2017
929
Irvine, CA
I feel like a traitor for being so excited about the Viera in FFXIV tbh. The skimpy armor is definitely icky, but I can't wait to do "pretty girls doing pretty things" in FFXIV just like I do "cute girls doing cute things" with my Miqo'te.

Basically I'm riding on the cusp of being enby IRL, so playing dress-up with my women avatars in games is sort of an expression of what I'll never get to do in real life as a schlubby dude that can't pull off women's fashion.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
9,526
Not disagreeing so much as, "how would we know if it's even possible, given the current state of jRPGs?" There hasn't been a jRPG with an interesting cast in a decade or more.
Octopath had an OK cast but still featured mostly young people, with the oldest man being Oberic (35) and the oldest woman being H'aanit (26). At least they didn't treat H'aanit like some grizzled veteran lady, but a "normal" Hunter... lol.
Like in Kiseki games. I enjoy those games, but their idea of "older", experienced warriors and spies and soldiers for female playable characters are all 23-25 years old lol (Schera, Sara, and Sharon). *eyeroll*
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560
Octopath had an OK cast but still featured mostly young people, with the oldest man being Oberic (35) and the oldest woman being H'aanit (26). At least they didn't treat H'aanit like some grizzled veteran lady, but a "normal" Hunter... lol.
Like in Kiseki games. I enjoy those games, but their idea of "older", experienced warriors and spies and soldiers for female playable characters are all 23-25 years old lol (Schera, Sara, and Sharon). *eyeroll*
Yeah, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. When grizzled is 25, it's hard to imagine what the hell these writers/designers consider 30 or 40 year-olds to be. It'd be comical if it wasn't so sad.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,099
When was the last time you saw a jRPG with any cast diversity in the last ten years? It's hard to even know if such a thing would or could happen given the current state of jRPGs. It's why I ask what brings you to that conclusion given the current state of things.
After checking out various gacha games in the past couple weeks, I have to side with you. Even in a pool of fifty or so characters, you will get one or two old men at most, and still zero older or even middle-aged women. The target demographic for these games doesn't leave any room for it.
 
Ah, this is exactly what I was looking for! Thank you so much! This thread is always my first stop when I check into ResetEra because of how many great posts, big or small, that articulately discuss the problems that far too many people don't want to acknowledge.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,834
Yeah, and that's exactly what I'm getting at. When grizzled is 25, it's hard to imagine what the hell these writers/designers consider 30 or 40 year-olds to be. It'd be comical if it wasn't so sad.
At 25, bros have been to too many parties. They’ve seen too much shit. They gotta carry all those memories of fun having for the rest of their lives.
 
See if she was a Human with rabbit traits than maybe. But maybe because I had Bunnies when I was little when I played ff12 I just assumed they were Sapient Bunnies and subscribed them bunny behaviors. Being Relatively cool until threatened, being vegan/vegetarian, Fucking all the time when they have spare time, Also having weird Sexual behaviors. Also being relatively clean and not liking when I tried to put them in Sweaters because Baltimore winters can be hell.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
Just Like they like catgirls and doggirls. I had assumed based on how they were back in ff12 that there were more alien/fantasy racish than what they actually were. Look up the Advance tactics stuff They just seemed like human with bunny ears which colors them more in being unneeded in how much flesh they show off all the time.

Its why I like the Bangaa race, they look way different and act reasonably different from humans that to uninformed humans you wouldn't be able to realize which ones are male or female. To me they are how most other races should be portrayed.
Funnily, Square Enix trolled with Bangaa female concept art at the Final Fantasy XIV presentation before they showed off the Viera:

 
Oct 25, 2017
11,736
Brazil
I never understood those things ... why frachises that stayed pretty normal in the 16 bits go head up their asses in more recent versions ?

Like what the hell happened to the Shining Force series ? I can't even recognize it anymore
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
I never understood those things ... why frachises that stayed pretty normal in the 16 bits go head up their asses in more recent versions ?

Like what the hell happened to the Shining Force series ? I can't even recognize it anymore
Videogames mimic the trends in other Japanese media. Look at modern anime. The reason why we probably see a lot of older series take on sexualized stuff is because it's probably riskier to create a brand new franchise compared to retooling an existing one. Brand new fan service anime franchises are churned out on a regular basis. It's harder to that with videogames.
 
Oct 25, 2017
507
Even for the the previous job class reveal, BLUE MAGE, FFXIV still needed to gave the female version of the job shorts and those thigh high strap things.

No, it's not as bad as the Viera but it's the same type of ideas that brings us shit like giving the female dragoon armor that needless opening. They couldn't think of any other way to differentiate between the armor of the two genders besides exposed skin? Different shade of blue? A different hat? It's just so fucking obvious and stupid every damn time.

And now that we know what the FFXIV Viera looks like now, unless their is a whole village of the male version walking around looking this this:

I don't want to hear it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,560
Videogames mimic the trends in other Japanese media. Look at modern anime. The reason why we probably see a lot of older series take on sexualized stuff is because it's probably riskier to create a brand new franchise compared to retooling an existing one. Brand new fan service anime franchises are churned out on a regular basis. It's harder to that with videogames.
It's definitely not, but video games, especially in Japan, took on that "industry" moniker and boy do they wear it on their sleeve. And Japan is still very much a believer in "sex sells, racism sells, etc." - you can see this across pretty much any of their industry-driven media (TV/Anime/Videogames/toys/electronics/fashion).

Japan has these sorts of periods where media experiences rapid growth, acceleration, and experimentation, followed by massive downturns and epic stagnation due to over-industrialization of everything about those same media. This is seen in video games and anime most recently. The video games of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s, much like the anime of 70s, 80s and 90s, were some of the best, most experimental and creative ever put out. But a massive industrialization popping out of those media caused an extreme amount of stagnation due to the way in which their society seems to handle the process of industrializing media (not that, if I'm being perfectly honest, I actually think it's all that much better in the west or anywhere else, it's just marginally less sexist and racist in the west due to an inherently more diverse population).

The result is pretty much what we have today, where the only good video games and anime are those put out by small indie studios, because they're the only ones that give a shit about their work and aren't solely focused on making money or meeting arbitrary investor portfolios. EA is a dumpster fire of a company just as much as Square Enix; the problems perpetuated however are different in scale and scope.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
1,318
Just Like they like catgirls and doggirls. I had assumed based on how they were back in ff12 that there were more alien/fantasy racish than what they actually were. Look up the Advance tactics stuff They just seemed like human with bunny ears which colors them more in being unneeded in how much flesh they show off all the time.
Okay, let's pretend Advance Tactics didn't exist for a bit. Let's just analyze FFXII. By your postulation, Viera wear the clothes they wear because they need to be "more alien" compared to human and thus need to assimilate rabbit traits, right? Let's assume this is true for a bit, let's say that Viera in FFXII was actually meant to convey that.

You said that rabbits are "being Relatively cool until threatened, being vegan/vegetarian, Fucking all the time when they have spare time, Also having weird Sexual behaviors." And I assume that's why you saw Viera in FFXII and went "sure, rabbits are like that. Makes sense."

Here's the thing: rabbits are also a lot of other things. The are nervous creatures who could get heart attack just by being surprised. They're covered with fur. They prefer dark, cramped space. They eat their own poo. For some reason, the developer chose to discard those traits. If they truly wanted to do convey the "rabbitry" of Viera, should they take all the traits? And it's not like "promiscuous race with minimal clothing" is all that unique a concept in fantasy, anyway, so there goes "interesting alien" concept.

This is why I object with your initial impression of handwaving these sexualized clothing with basically "that's just the way the race is," because at the end of the day, the developer are the one who made this fictional race, in this fictional world, with that fictional circumstances. They consciously chose what specific "rabbit traits" to retain and what to discard, and somehow, what picked led them to become a race of sexy, aloof women who wear lingerie-like clothes all the time.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,318
Like in Kiseki games. I enjoy those games, but their idea of "older", experienced warriors and spies and soldiers for female playable characters are all 23-25 years old lol (Schera, Sara, and Sharon). *eyeroll*
To be fair, the games actually acknowledge some like Sara as very young for her accomplishments. But yea, it would be nice to have more older characters in the party, especially after Cold Steel. I think the oldest we've got is Julia (29) and Mueller (30).

But hey, at least we actually get the grizzled badass in Beatrix.