Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,311
Funnily, Square Enix trolled with Bangaa female concept art at the Final Fantasy XIV presentation before they showed off the Viera:

I almost want to throw up. The only way you can tell Bangaa apart is that females tend to a little shorter and have wider hips. Thats pretty much it outside of fashion choices. I'm so glad that was only a joke because that is a terrible Idea for the race.

Did they show off Male Veira at the event also? with the Veira being so tall and Petite I can't imagine much difference between the models outside of the men just being squarer if they are a bit lazy about it. I hope they do something cooler to make them look different.
 

BigWinnie1

Member
Feb 19, 2018
2,311
Here's another example if you need one, from Phantasy Star Idola:
Thats just fucking stupid. If we are going full Wolfman you need to fucking commit!!! I love japanese Fantasy to bits but Man they hardly ever commit on fantasy races and will just make girls with ears and a tail....... it just seems like a waste of a good Idea.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
I almost want to throw up. The only way you can tell Bangaa apart is that females tend to a little shorter and have wider hips. Thats pretty much it outside of fashion choices. I'm so glad that was only a joke because that is a terrible Idea for the race.

Did they show off Male Veira at the event also? with the Veira being so tall and Petite I can't imagine much difference between the models outside of the men just being squarer if they are a bit lazy about it. I hope they do something cooler to make them look different.
They said that Male Viera will be shown off at Tokyo Fan Fest

Here's another example if you need one, from Phantasy Star Idola:
...wat...
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,770
It's like the extreme version of this pic:

Only they couldn't even be arsed to design the actually-non-human male version. :D
I'm happy for that?

I play ff14 and my guy is a cool looking sexy tall dragon/demoney looking dude and i'm here for it. I am however upset that the ladies couldn't also be tall and were relegated to small " waifu status " . And couldn't be tall and badass looking like the dudes, while also being sexy if the user was so inclined.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
7,045
Tbilisi, Georgia
Here's another example if you need one, from Phantasy Star Idola:
Hahaha holy shit.

They coul’ve at least made her some sort of a buxom furry if they wanted to sex it up*

This looks like a parody. They look like different species to the point where you wonder if the male and female individuals could be attracted to one another without bestiality tendencies.

* No I’m not into that.
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,256
Madrid
I never understood those things ... why frachises that stayed pretty normal in the 16 bits go head up their asses in more recent versions ?

Like what the hell happened to the Shining Force series ? I can't even recognize it anymore
The Overton window for this shit in Japan didn't so much shift as get mounted on a speeding race car which then fell off a cliff. When everyone else is pushing pandering to 500%, you need to push it to 700% to stand out. Then next year 700% is the norm, etc.

I'm not explaining it, I know we all here know how it works. I'm more like venting aloud. :/ Japanese anime and games were a huge part of my childhood / teen years during the 80s and 90s, so it especially hurts to see it turned into this.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747

I just like to say that Wargroove is awesome and its main character has a pretty awesome design.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,351
Hahaha holy shit.

They coul’ve at least made her some sort of a buxom furry if they wanted to sex it up*

This looks like a parody. They look like different species to the point where you wonder if the male and female individuals could be attracted to one another without bestiality tendencies.

* No I’m not into that.
They need to split the idea into two races, one that's full were-furry and another one that's kemono friends
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,469
Revisited Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei. and oh man I shouldn't have done that. This is pretty gross by today's standards. Looks like i'll still be sticking to Nichijou for absurd comedy.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,742
Ah, I never played that game myself.
Tera has two of the requisite "diminutive" MMO races. Nether of them have gender options and they both have their lore tied in with each other.

The Popori look like this:


And the Elin look like this:


Bonus points for the Elin also being 1000 years old. That illustration is also by far one of their least tasteless depictions. The game's North American publisher clearly realized how yikes the Elin were and tried to mitigate them to was was probably the best of their ability, by altering a bunch of their costumes from underwear to shorts and dubbing them with clearly adult voices.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,803
I'll just say that for a AAA project, 4 years with little to show for it isn't typical, regardless of media. And for most AAA titles, the typical dev time is between 2 and 4 years maximum, so we're already past what would be typical for a dev cycle. This has happened more and more with Squenix's bigger titles, and most of it is due to mismanagement and (though this is a personal opinion) diva directors rarely being reigned in.
No one is making AAA games in 2 years anymore, unless it heavily reuses assets from a previously released game (i.e. Far Cry Primal). 4 years is starting to be the norm and 5-6 year development times are not abnormal for the biggest games, especially more exploration heavy games. Of course FFVII Remake has the debacle with moving the project out of the hands of CC2 that has caused a noticeable delay in production.

And, again, they are planning and developing a whole (assumed) trilogy of games at once. Even if the work they are basing it on is already there, this massive of a multipart remake/overhaul of the original work isn't a small task. It's basically like Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. They will take a bit longer in pre production because they can't just jump into the development of Part 1 without having fairly well planned out path for the whole trilogy, but they'll hopefully & likely be able to pump out the subsequent part(s) far more efficiently once they have part 1 out and can expand & build on a finished base.

And Nomura a diva? Lol, don't be silly. If you follow his interviews at all, it's pretty clear he's anything but.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
No one is making AAA games in 2 years anymore, unless it heavily reuses assets from a previously released game (i.e. Far Cry Primal). 4 years is starting to be the norm and 5-6 year development times are not abnormal for the biggest games, especially more exploration heavy games. Of course FFVII Remake has the debacle with moving the project out of the hands of CC2 that has caused a noticeable delay in production.

And, again, they are planning and developing a whole (assumed) trilogy of games at once. Even if the work they are basing it on is already there, this massive of a multipart remake/overhaul of the original work isn't a small task. It's basically like Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. They will take a bit longer in pre production because they can't just jump into the development of Part 1 without having fairly well planned out path for the whole trilogy, but they'll hopefully & likely be able to pump out the subsequent part(s) far more efficiently once they have part 1 out and can expand & build on a finished base.
What are you basing this on? There's a pretty well-established history of how long and the associated costs of a AAA game (dev hours, cycles, etc.), and if anything, due to better tools and the ceiling for technology expectations not shifting as much, the time for a AAA title is likely around 2 to 4 years, same as it's ever been. Aside from debacles, there aren't really a lot of reasons they typically take longer, especially if you've already got a pre-established text to work from, as they do in the case of FFVII. Even if they are reinventing some parts of it, such as gameplay or graphics, they still have to keep the story and beats the same (god I hope they do, FFVII fans will have their heads if they don't). Which means you've got a pretty well defined structure for pretty much everything about the game except how you want to restructure the gameplay. So yeah, it's hard to imagine how a game with that much definition already there for you is so hard to recreate.

Do note that I'm not saying that it isn't work to create these things - but that they have source material to work from and are not adapting the source material. This isn't like the Lord of the Rings where they have to adapt a book to a movie. This is a game where they are remaking it to a game (somewhat silly unto itself really, but then, Star Wars was a fan of trying to ruin the older movies via retconning and CG).

edit: Also worth noting, this isn't a game like Cyberpunk, where they're trying to make something that's extremely non-linear. FFVII is a very linear game with some fluff optional side content.

And Nomura a diva? Lol, don't be silly. If you follow his interviews at all, it's pretty clear he's anything but.
Wasn't referring to Nomura specifically with the diva comment.
 
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Dec 18, 2017
324
So I just got off a few rounds of Apex Legends and I'm kinda in love with its character design. I already loved Titanfall 2, but this injection of personality into it makes me realize that this is what Lawbreakers was trying to be, and by god it does so much better at it at every turn.


Shout-out to Bangalore, beating Overwatch to adding a fantastic black woman to it's cast, and with a dope ass curl pattern to boot. I'm legitimately excited to see the characters they add next. I'm curious about how everyone else feels about it.


Bloodhound is also interesting, because I think this is one of the first non-binary characters I'm seeing in recent AAA? I'm not entirely sure whether it was entirely on purpose, but I'm also curious what folks here feel about them. If nothing else, their armor is pretty neat.

 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,803
What are you basing this on? There's a pretty well-established history of how long and the associated costs of a AAA game (dev hours, cycles, etc.), and if anything, due to better tools and the ceiling for technology expectations not shifting as much, the time for a AAA title is likely around 2 to 4 years, same as it's ever been.
I'm basing this on following a whole lot of developers throughout the years and how their output has changed. Naughty Dog isn't releasing games every two years like they (barely) managed in the PS3 generation. Rockstar seems to be on a "single game per generation" trajectory. Nintendo is taking 4-6 years with their bigger games. Insomniac isn't releasing yearly Ratchet & Clanks (or anything, really). Sucker Punch released their last full game in early 2014 and we're still some ways off until their next game. The most recent Assassin's Creed took 4 years (and at least some/significant part of that was with a supermassive, multi-studio team) and it's not a yearly franchise anymore because keeping up with that was starting to seriously affect the quality of games. Capcom's more recent big games like REVII, Monster Hunter World and DMC5 have had ~4+ year development times & REmake 2 took 3,5 years. Platinum Games' bigger titles are ~4 year commitments. Even smaller devs like Atlus & Namco Bandai have many projects that aren't the kind of quick one per 1-2 years types of things as they were in the past (or if they attempt to, i.e. Tales of Zestria, you can really see how they struggle to uphold any level of quality). Persona 5 took, like, what, 5 years even after a lengthy planning stage that started soon after Persona 4's release in 2008?

A lot of franchises that manage a yearly or one per two years schedule have multiple teams working on separate games, outsource a whole lot of development and can still have 3+ year development times.

Aside from debacles, there aren't really a lot of reasons they typically take longer, especially if you've already got a pre-established text to work from, as they do in the case of FFVII. Even if they are reinventing some parts of it, such as gameplay or graphics, they still have to keep the story and beats the same (god I hope they do, FFVII fans will have their heads if they don't). Which means you've got a pretty well defined structure for pretty much everything about the game except how you want to restructure the gameplay. So yeah, it's hard to imagine how a game with that much definition already there for you is so hard to recreate. Do note that I'm not saying that it isn't work to create these things - but that they have source material to work from and are not adapting the source material. This isn't like the Lord of the Rings where they have to adapt a book to a movie.
The jump from OG FFVII to this remake in terms of audiovisual quality & modern design sensibilities is so huge that outside of the main story (which itself will go through plenty of changes, cuts & additions, although the main gist of it will remain the same), they do have a lot of new ground to cover. Like, even if they recreated ONLY the screens from the original, that would be a huge workload in PS4 quality and full 3d. Then you factor in the fact that they need to also create a lot of the spaces in between & around those OG locations and the workload grows a whole lot bigger.


edit: Also worth noting, this isn't a game like Cyberpunk, where they're trying to make something that's extremely non-linear. FFVII is a very linear game with some fluff optional side content.
OG FFVII might be linear, but the remake will expand on some locations, and it's a fucking loooooooong ass linear game. It ain't no 5-10 hour campaign like Uncharteds. First time players can easily take up to almost 40 hours playing through it. Now imagine that made with more modern design sensibilities (fully 3d, slightly expanded & more connected environments, no more loading screens every 5-10 steps, world map made into an overworld with slightly more realistic scale & distances and a wilderness/countryside in place of open, empty green fields etc.) and with PS4 level graphics. You aren't just running back & forth the same few locations, the story takes you forward constantly and there's something fairly distinct around almost every corner. Then there is the masston of unique monsters, hours upon hours of cutscenes they have to animate at much more detail etc.

FFVIIR is just a massive project and whatever happened with CC2 and caused them to take the project back in-house certainly didn't speed things up. I'm not saying there has been no issues, but considering the nature & scope of the project & its background, I just don't think it's too alarming yet that Part 1 of such a project takes some time to materialize. It needs to have a solid base that not only satisfies gamers with Part 1, they need to be able to build on that base efficiently for the subsequent parts.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
I'm basing this on following a whole lot of developers throughout the years and how their output has changed. Naughty Dog isn't releasing games every two years like they (barely) managed in the PS3 generation. Rockstar seems to be on a "single game per generation" trajectory. Nintendo is taking 4-6 years with their bigger games. Insomniac isn't releasing yearly Ratchet & Clanks (or anything, really). Sucker Punch released their last full game in early 2014 and we're still some ways off until their next game. The most recent Assassin's Creed took 4 years (and at least some/significant part of that was with a supermassive, multi-studio team) and it's not a yearly franchise anymore because keeping up with that was starting to seriously affect the quality of games. Capcom's more recent big games like REVII, Monster Hunter World and DMC5 have had ~4+ year development times & REmake 2 took 3,5 years. Platinum Games' bigger titles are ~4 year commitments. Even smaller devs like Atlus & Namco Bandai have many projects that aren't the kind of quick one per 1-2 years types of things as they were in the past (or if they attempt to, i.e. Tales of Zestria, you can really see how they struggle to uphold any level of quality). Persona 5 took, like, what, 5 years even after a lengthy planning stage that started soon after Persona 4's release in 2008?

A lot of franchises that manage a yearly or one per two years schedule have multiple teams working on separate games, outsource a whole lot of development and can still have 3+ year development times.

The jump from OG FFVII to this remake in terms of audiovisual quality & modern design sensibilities is so huge that outside of the main story (which itself will go through plenty of changes, cuts & additions, although the main gist of it will remain the same), they do have a lot of new ground to cover. Like, even if they recreated ONLY the screens from the original, that would be a huge workload in PS4 quality and full 3d. Then you factor in the fact that they need to also create a lot of the spaces in between & around those OG locations and the workload grows a whole lot bigger.



OG FFVII might be linear, but the remake will expand on some locations, and it's a fucking loooooooong ass linear game. It ain't no 5-10 hour campaign like Uncharteds. First time players can easily take up to almost 40 hours playing through it. Now imagine that made with more modern design sensibilities (fully 3d, slightly expanded & more connected environments, no more loading screens every 5-10 steps, world map made into an overworld with slightly more realistic scale & distances and a wilderness/countryside in place of open, empty green fields etc.) and with PS4 level graphics. You aren't just running back & forth the same few locations, the story takes you forward constantly and there's something fairly distinct around almost every corner. Then there is the masston of unique monsters, hours upon hours of cutscenes they have to animate at much more detail etc.

FFVIIR is just a massive project and whatever happened with CC2 and caused them to take the project back in-house certainly didn't speed things up. I'm not saying there has been no issues, but considering the nature & scope of the project & its background, I just don't think it's too alarming yet that Part 1 of such a project takes some time to materialize. It needs to have a solid base that not only satisfies gamers with Part 1, they need to be able to build on that base efficiently for the subsequent parts.
My basic response to this is that yes, if they want to make FFVII Remake take more than 4 years to make, they certainly can, but that's a hole they dug for themselves, not a result of it being overly difficult to actually achieve. What you've described is that they have to make something that is vastly superior to the original and adds to it, which is pretty much the same mentality that brought us all the extra garbage Star Wars stuff. At the end of the day, what is needed is not more. That design sensibility is itself outdated.
 

Astartes

Avenger
Nov 12, 2017
1,662
Sunshine State
So I just got off a few rounds of Apex Legends and I'm kinda in love with its character design. I already loved Titanfall 2, but this injection of personality into it makes me realize that this is what Lawbreakers was trying to be, and by god it does so much better at it at every turn.


Shout-out to Bangalore, beating Overwatch to adding a fantastic black woman to it's cast, and with a dope ass curl pattern to boot. I'm legitimately excited to see the characters they add next. I'm curious about how everyone else feels about it.


Bloodhound is also interesting, because I think this is one of the first non-binary characters I'm seeing in recent AAA? I'm not entirely sure whether it was entirely on purpose, but I'm also curious what folks here feel about them. If nothing else, their armor is pretty neat.

Wow didn’t know that about Bloodhound, if true that’s awesome. Bangalore’s hair is dope
 

BY2K

Membero Americo
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,813
Québec, Canada
So I just got off a few rounds of Apex Legends and I'm kinda in love with its character design. I already loved Titanfall 2, but this injection of personality into it makes me realize that this is what Lawbreakers was trying to be, and by god it does so much better at it at every turn.


Shout-out to Bangalore, beating Overwatch to adding a fantastic black woman to it's cast, and with a dope ass curl pattern to boot. I'm legitimately excited to see the characters they add next. I'm curious about how everyone else feels about it.


Bloodhound is also interesting, because I think this is one of the first non-binary characters I'm seeing in recent AAA? I'm not entirely sure whether it was entirely on purpose, but I'm also curious what folks here feel about them. If nothing else, their armor is pretty neat.

I believe the description of Bloodhound uses "they" as a pronoun so I think it's on purpose.
 

Wanderer5

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,883
Somewhere.
Whew, coming off from DUSK, I am liking the speed that Bangalore has. XD Cool design and looks very fun to play as. If I check out the game, I would likely play her and Lifeline first.
 
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Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,366
Bloodhound is also interesting, because I think this is one of the first non-binary characters I'm seeing in recent AAA? I'm not entirely sure whether it was entirely on purpose, but I'm also curious what folks here feel about them. If nothing else, their armor is pretty neat.

I'm afraid Black ops 3 already beat them to the punch with the specialist Spectre. Although I will admit his/her voice synthesizer leans more on the male side than bloodhound.

Next to nothing is known about the presumed wet-works Specialist, Spectre. The designation itself is a codename agreed upon by the various agencies that have pooled their intelligence on unsolved assassinations, inferring his or her existence based on either evidence found at the scene or from fragmentary reports given by shaken bystanders.
 
Dec 18, 2017
324
I'm afraid Black ops 3 already beat them to the punch with the specialist Spectre. Although I will admit his/her voice synthesizer leans more on the male side than bloodhound.
Word word, the only thing here is that BlOps refers to Spectre with he/her, which definitely has some different connotations to they/them. While here it stems from confusion, they/them and other non-binary expression sources from the person in question. I don’t think we’re supposed to try and figure out Bloodhound’s express gender, we already have it.

I will check out BlOps, however. I’ve intended to for a long time.
 

Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
973
So I just got off a few rounds of Apex Legends and I'm kinda in love with its character design. I already loved Titanfall 2, but this injection of personality into it makes me realize that this is what Lawbreakers was trying to be, and by god it does so much better at it at every turn.


Shout-out to Bangalore, beating Overwatch to adding a fantastic black woman to it's cast, and with a dope ass curl pattern to boot. I'm legitimately excited to see the characters they add next. I'm curious about how everyone else feels about it.


Bloodhound is also interesting, because I think this is one of the first non-binary characters I'm seeing in recent AAA? I'm not entirely sure whether it was entirely on purpose, but I'm also curious what folks here feel about them. If nothing else, their armor is pretty neat.

Oh, wow, that's fantastic, especially Bloodhound - they look amazing! I haven't gotten to check out Apex yet, but I remember being pleasantly surprised what a good job TF2 did with the female supporting cast. It's great to see Respawn step it up even further by creating a non-binary character.
 

Primethius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,113
So I just got off a few rounds of Apex Legends and I'm kinda in love with its character design. I already loved Titanfall 2, but this injection of personality into it makes me realize that this is what Lawbreakers was trying to be, and by god it does so much better at it at every turn.


Shout-out to Bangalore, beating Overwatch to adding a fantastic black woman to it's cast, and with a dope ass curl pattern to boot. I'm legitimately excited to see the characters they add next. I'm curious about how everyone else feels about it.


Bloodhound is also interesting, because I think this is one of the first non-binary characters I'm seeing in recent AAA? I'm not entirely sure whether it was entirely on purpose, but I'm also curious what folks here feel about them. If nothing else, their armor is pretty neat.

Going to echo this. I'm really liking all of the designs so far. Even more traditional "cool" designs like Wraith are done quite well.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,992
My basic response to this is that yes, if they want to make FFVII Remake take more than 4 years to make, they certainly can, but that's a hole they dug for themselves, not a result of it being overly difficult to actually achieve.
Unless I'm missing something, this is woefully off-topic, but I'll still chime in and ask how you get this idea that remaking FF7 by today's standards wouldn't be overly difficult to actually achieve.

This is a massive undertaking no matter how you look at it. It's one of the most beloved games out there (so hey, no pressure there). It's a 40h+ RPG. It has A LOT of environments in its original incarnation. A lot of enemies. A lot of playable characters. A lot of cutscenes. So unless you're cutting a lot of content or just choose not the be faithful the the original material, remaking FF7 is one hell of a task.

Edit: It's both saddening and heartening to read this thread sometimes. Some of the designs are just plain BS and just feel out of this world (like that wolf thing which totally looks like parody smh), but it's great to see other devs are willing to break the infamous circle and make actual decent "realistic" designs (I'm putting "realistic" under double quotes as, well, sci-fi settings and all that).
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
Unless I'm missing something, this is woefully off-topic, but I'll still chime in and ask how you get this idea that remaking FF7 by today's standards wouldn't be overly difficult to actually achieve.

This is a massive undertaking no matter how you look at it. It's one of the most beloved games out there (so hey, no pressure there). It's a 40h+ RPG. It has A LOT of environments in its original incarnation. A lot of enemies. A lot of playable characters. A lot of cutscenes. So unless you're cutting a lot of content or just choose not the be faithful the the original material, remaking FF7 is one hell of a task.
I think the increased prevalence of remakes and remasters are in general indicative of a video game industry that is considerably less creative than it used to be 20 years ago. I say it is not overly difficult to achieve precisely because it is not creating something new. And even as I'm aware of remakes and remasters of the past, that culture is itself rather insidious. It takes work to create these things, certainly, but I can't call it terribly thoughtful work to modernize models of a world that's already built.

And here's the thing: much like Star Wars, expanding FFVII is going to piss off as many people as it may make others happy. There's no way around this, more is simply not more in this scenario, which is why spending all this money to completely remake a project like FFVII doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But then, I'm fairly certain this remake was a business decision and not a decision made with a lot of foresight.
Edit: It's both saddening and heartening to read this thread sometimes. Some of the designs are just plain BS and just feel out of this world (like that wolf thing which totally looks like parody smh), but it's great to see other devs are willing to break the infamous circle and make actual decent "realistic" designs (I'm putting "realistic" under double quotes as, well, sci-fi settings and all that).
More than anything the design paradigm strikes me as strange. I feel over time the designs of China, Korea and Japan have become more sexist, whereas the designs of Europe and America have become less so. In South Korea I've heard this argued as sexual liberation, in Japan I've heard it argued as a result of sexual oppression, and in China I've heard it's a result of attempts at information control (at varying levels - do note that these aren't the only reasons, just some I've often heard cited). In Europe and America the designs tend to get argued as a result of increased diversity in the media, which I believe is true.

At an economic level it's interesting how design paradigms that were once shifting closer to one another in the 90s have now shifted far, far apart, and my only real conclusion for that is a result of the mass industrialization of the product itself. The industry now reflects the economy from which it originates, whether diverse, sexist, permissive, or oppressive.
 

HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,992
I think the increased prevalence of remakes and remasters are in general indicative of a video game industry that is considerably less creative than it used to be 20 years ago. I say it is not overly difficult to achieve precisely because it is not creating something new. And even as I'm aware of remakes and remasters of the past, that culture is itself rather insidious. It takes work to create these things, certainly, but I can't call it terribly thoughtful work to modernize models of a world that's already built.
Putting aside the fact that this remaster will not please everyone, I still don't think the most "difficult" (as in time consuming) part is to be inventive. The hard part with today AAA game development is that you need to reach a certain level of audio-visual fidelity to be considered "playable" by a lot of consumers. And as I said, unless that FF7 Remake is a lot shorter/smaller in scope than PS1 FF7, it will take A LOT of man-hours to develop that remake. Of course that doesn't mean it's impossible. But most current AAA games take a few years to develop, and relatively short 2 year cycles are reserved to very specific franchises like the Forza games which are awfully iterative.

At an economic level it's interesting how design paradigms that were once shifting closer to one another in the 90s have now shifted far, far apart, and my only real conclusion for that is a result of the mass industrialization of the product itself. The industry now reflects the economy from which it originates, whether diverse, sexist, permissive, or oppressive.
I dunno, I myself tend to be relatively optimistic on that regard, in that all those years of "complaining" are finally paying off, and not because of the noise in itself, but because most of the arguments are sound.

It IS silly on multiple levels to have OTT gender disparity, impractical clothing, etc. And some designers are finally starting to notice. It just doesn't make sense (I mean outside of the obvious marketing-driven titillation).

What I mean is that of course introducing diversity helps a great deal. But I'm always wary of those "it takes a woman to write a woman" arguments. So my personal opinion is that it's probably a combination of multiple factors, but to put it simply, these kind of threads helps quite a bit, methinks. I just believe in the strength of sound arguments.

As for the West vs East discrepancy, I'm not sure. I mean I'm always wondering if we're not subject to a number of biases which make us see what we want to see. I mean not all Eastern designs are as stupid as some of those commonly reported here, and maybe we just aren't aware of those "progressive designs" enough.

Or maybe I'm just too optimistic and they're truly regressing, what do I know.
 

Gaming_Groove

Member
Apr 4, 2018
2,163
Central Florida
I'm so conflicted about 2B's design. My girlfriend and I have been playing NieR: Automata for the first time and we're each about 10 hours in (she's a little further ahead, but the ground has collapsed and we've been introduced to Adam and Eve). She loves 2B's design, and I kind of like it as well, though I can't help but feel weirdly uncomfortable whenever I play...like, I probably wouldn't play this game in front of my mother. lol

It's probably a Thermian argument, but so far this game has a lot to say about what it is to be human, concepts like the Ship of Theseus being applied to sentient beings, the self of the body versus the self of the mind, depictions of machines mimicking human behavior that would serve no purpose for a machine...sexuality is a huge part of the human experience, and I have to wonder if her design is partly intended to play into that. But then I read Yoko Taro say he "just really likes girls" and a lot of that comes into question. I dunno, I've been meaning to write a LTTP for it when I get further along or finish it, but it's definitely a weirdly dissonant experience.
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,587
Canada

I'm convinced not all game developers understand how breasts move.... Imagine someone's dick sliding around like those gelatinous nipples Hahaha ho... ho...oh dear
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747

I'm convinced not all game developers understand how breasts move.... Imagine someone's dick sliding around like those gelatinous nipples Hahaha ho... ho...oh dear
In a Japanese direct, the senran kagura devs had a "jiggle lab" where they tested things like jello to "realistically depict jiggling". Because you know, actually asking women how breasts move would take far too much time...

EDIT:

Yep, here it is:


At this point, I would not be surprised if these idiots found IRL breasts too unrealistic.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,332
I'm so conflicted about 2B's design. My girlfriend and I have been playing NieR: Automata for the first time and we're each about 10 hours in (she's a little further ahead, but the ground has collapsed and we've been introduced to Adam and Eve). She loves 2B's design, and I kind of like it as well, though I can't help but feel weirdly uncomfortable whenever I play...like, I probably wouldn't play this game in front of my mother. lol

It's probably a Thermian argument, but so far this game has a lot to say about what it is to be human, concepts like the Ship of Theseus being applied to sentient beings, the self of the body versus the self of the mind, depictions of machines mimicking human behavior that would serve no purpose for a machine...sexuality is a huge part of the human experience, and I have to wonder if her design is partly intended to play into that. But then I read Yoko Taro say he "just really likes girls" and a lot of that comes into question. I dunno, I've been meaning to write a LTTP for it when I get further along or finish it, but it's definitely a weirdly dissonant experience.
It was intentional but not just cause taro “likes girls”, even so, him liking girls is still a factor huge enough to make it uncomfortable

That’s all i can say without expanding on stuffs that’ll show up later in the game:

Automata’s society overall is centered a lot on idealizing human beings so everyone in this game will look good and sexy, that’s true for a lot of games, i know, but it’s one of the rare instances where using idealised models serves a narrative purpose.

(Not trying to defend the designs, there are other ways to show the same idea, but they have a slightly stronger reason to be than other games usually have)
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
It was intentional but not just cause taro “likes girls”, even so, him liking girls is still a factor huge enough to make it uncomfortable

That’s all i can say without expanding on stuffs that’ll show up later in the game:

Automata’s society overall is centered a lot on idealizing human beings so everyone in this game will look good and sexy, that’s true for a lot of games, i know, but it’s one of the rare instances where using idealised models serves a narrative purpose.

(Not trying to defend the designs, there are other ways to show the same idea, but they have a slightly stronger reason to be than other games usually have)
Narrative purpose seems secondary when so much effort is put into the look of her ass you can even see her butthole. I wish I didn't even know that, but 2B was everywhere for a good month or two.
EDIT: It was pointed out that this was a photoshop below.
 
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Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
It was intentional but not just cause taro “likes girls”, even so, him liking girls is still a factor huge enough to make it uncomfortable

That’s all i can say without expanding on stuffs that’ll show up later in the game:

Automata’s society overall is centered a lot on idealizing human beings so everyone in this game will look good and sexy, that’s true for a lot of games, i know, but it’s one of the rare instances where using idealised models serves a narrative purpose.

(Not trying to defend the designs, there are other ways to show the same idea, but they have a slightly stronger reason to be than other games usually have)
Doesn't help that in cameos they still do a bunch of "fanservice" shots with even less justification. Like how 2B's victory screen in SCVI is a upskirt shot.