Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

sabrina

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,741
newport beach, CA
In a Japanese direct, the senran kagura devs had a "jiggle lab" where they tested things like jello to "realistically depict jiggling". Because you know, actually asking women how breasts move would take far too much time...

EDIT:

Yep, here it is:


At this point, I would not be surprised if these idiots found IRL breasts too unrealistic.
It looks like there was a woman in the lab helping him out with it?

You can go for realism without aiming for reality. Consider, for example, the move to physically-based rendering in western animated movies over the past eight or nine years. The goal hasn't been life-like imagery, but better textures, shadows and light scattering. It's sort of like the nuance between accuracy and precision.

There is a science to fluid motion and jiggling, and you can realistically and precisely simulate that without accurately modeling the correct subject and still get results that feel better to the end user than a naive approach would.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,674
It looks like there was a woman in the lab helping him out with it?

You can go for realism without aiming for reality. Consider, for example, the move to physically-based rendering in western animated movies over the past eight or nine years. The goal hasn't been life-like imagery, but better textures, shadows and light scattering. It's sort of like the nuance between accuracy and precision.

There is a science to fluid motion and jiggling, and you can realistically and precisely simulate that without accurately modeling the correct subject and still get results that feel better to the end user than a naive approach would.
While true this is for the Sanran Kangura series which most definitely is more doing this for titillation.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
Putting aside the fact that this remaster will not please everyone, I still don't think the most "difficult" (as in time consuming) part is to be inventive. The hard part with today AAA game development is that you need to reach a certain level of audio-visual fidelity to be considered "playable" by a lot of consumers. And as I said, unless that FF7 Remake is a lot shorter/smaller in scope than PS1 FF7, it will take A LOT of man-hours to develop that remake. Of course that doesn't mean it's impossible. But most current AAA games take a few years to develop, and relatively short 2 year cycles are reserved to very specific franchises like the Forza games which are awfully iterative.
I agree, it will take a lot of dev hours, but those dev hours are typically now made up for by a) technology, at some level, and b) much larger budgets and # of employees. SquareEnix is a far larger company than Square was when it first made FFVII.

I dunno, I myself tend to be relatively optimistic on that regard, in that all those years of "complaining" are finally paying off, and not because of the noise in itself, but because most of the arguments are sound.

It IS silly on multiple levels to have OTT gender disparity, impractical clothing, etc. And some designers are finally starting to notice. It just doesn't make sense (I mean outside of the obvious marketing-driven titillation).

What I mean is that of course introducing diversity helps a great deal. But I'm always wary of those "it takes a woman to write a woman" arguments. So my personal opinion is that it's probably a combination of multiple factors, but to put it simply, these kind of threads helps quite a bit, methinks. I just believe in the strength of sound arguments.

As for the West vs East discrepancy, I'm not sure. I mean I'm always wondering if we're not subject to a number of biases which make us see what we want to see. I mean not all Eastern designs are as stupid as some of those commonly reported here, and maybe we just aren't aware of those "progressive designs" enough.

Or maybe I'm just too optimistic and they're truly regressing, what do I know.
I'm pretty strongly on the regressing side. Well, at least the capital portions of it are. The society itself may be seeing a progressive boom, but capital tends to be regressive (it's why, even as Pew Research indicates a relatively progressive American society, we have one of the most regressive Presidents and governments in American history).
 
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HBK

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,986
The society itself may be seeing a progressive boom, but capital tends to be regressive (it's why, even as Pew Research indicates a relatively progressive American society, we have one of the most regressive Presidents and governments in American history).
I dunno, I'm no expert on the US, but it seems to me it's easily interpretable as some kind of, how should I put this, like some kind of bigots' swan song. Like, they lost the war, but are still "going on with a bang". And while this kind of outburst is of course extremely damaging (and as such should be fought accordingly), in the end they're simply on the losing side.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
I dunno, I'm no expert on the US, but it seems to me it's easily interpretable as some kind of, how should I put this, like some kind of bigots' swan song. Like, they lost the war, but are still "going on with a bang". And while this kind of outburst is of course extremely damaging (and as such should be fought accordingly), in the end they're simply on the losing side.
Maybe. That's about all I can say at this point.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
On a more actually related to the topic note, and what I was talking about earlier related to Chinese videogames and their sexist expression, I present to you Justice Online, a new Chinese MMO - these are some of the classes for the game, of which I'm sure you'll notice some... differences in how the characters dress:

This is JiuLing, a female only Caster Class


These are LongYin, the vanilla fighter classes (one of the few that offers both M/F options):




More here: https://n.163.com/jobs/#jiuling

The game's very... consistent, in its designs, if nothing else.
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
(god eater 3)
You've heard of side boob, now get ready for side ass.



jesus these designs, what is this shirt. Looks like two halves of grandma's toilet seat cover held together by a button
 
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AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
It's more obvious from the back
Its funny you want us to mock a character design for showing side ass then post an image of said character where the alleged side ass can’t be seen. I want to be part of it, show it so I can mock it too! Otherwise I’ll have to take your word for it because i don’t even know what game that’s from :)
 
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Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
7,930
You've heard of side boob, now get ready for side ass.



jesus these designs, what is this shirt. Looks like two halves of grandma's toilet seat cover held together by a button
PSO2 already did that shit ("PSO 2 already did that shit" is a recurrent phrase when you're talking about shitty female designs).

 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Even for the the previous job class reveal, BLUE MAGE, FFXIV still needed to gave the female version of the job shorts and those thigh high strap things.

No, it's not as bad as the Viera but it's the same type of ideas that brings us shit like giving the female dragoon armor that needless opening. They couldn't think of any other way to differentiate between the armor of the two genders besides exposed skin? Different shade of blue? A different hat? It's just so fucking obvious and stupid every damn time.
It’s still astounds me just how common, popular, and even expected zettai ryouiki design trope is. The way it caught fire in popular Japanese culture is something I have difficulty understanding from a logical POV.

It’s everywhere to the point I‘s readily waiting for any new game with an anime art style to have at least one instance of a variation of this trope and 90% of the time it does. And of the remaining 10 probably 5% is because it features girls in school uniforms and use socks only below the knee instead of over (which now that I think of it could be considered a spin off of the typical zettai ryouiki).

The craziest thing is that this fad (at least I think it should be a fashion fad) has been going on for a very long time now. Since shortly after the turn of the century and it doesn’t show signs of going away as all fashion fads tend to do.

The first instance of a sexualized anime girl I remember paying attention to that sported the now venerated thigh gap was probably Bible Black shortly after at the turn of the century (2002 I think). It’s been going on for more than 15 years strong now, at least this modern and ever present incarnation of the thigh gap in Japanese fiction.

To those living in Japan: is it common to see women in real life wearing thigh highs and mini skirts or shorts? Or is it more of an anime thing?
 
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Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,522
I find it funny you mock a character design for showing side ass then post an image of said character where the alleged side ass can’t be seen.

I’ll have to take your word for it because i don’t even know what game that’s from :)
The first image is the default for a customizable player character in God Eater 3. I don't know who the one in the second image is or their game.

Either way, I don't see what they're complaining about either (having played the demo for GE3, there were also much more stylish alternatives that show nothing at all).
 

BuddyDharma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,326
PSO2 already did that shit ("PSO 2 already did that shit" is a recurrent phrase when you're talking about shitty female designs).

I wanna see how that would actually work on a 3d, living, human being.

But you get a lot of the side butt in kunoichi designs. They generally have a slit along the but/upper thigh of their pants. I think it's a sexed up version of old traditional pants (that you wear another garment under.) I'm reading a comic called Jigokuraku that has a ninja lady with a pretty "classic" kunoichi design.
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,447
Its funny you want us to mock a character design for showing side ass then post an image of said character where the alleged side ass can’t be seen. I want to be part of it, show it so I can mock it too! Otherwise I’ll have to take your word for it because i don’t even know what game that’s from :)
Both images are from god eater 3. Couldn't find a picture from behind since the game just came out.
 

Deleted member 5535

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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Dungeon Meshi has best designs



Also the reincarnated as a slime anime had this happen


and it's such a fucking downgrade...meanwhile the males look the same but they get wings and horns
Uh no, it wasn't like that, this is a pretty big misinformation. Some indeed were like that but others were just like this girl.



And the same scene is on the anime. It's alredy on the timespan where they appear so just click on the video.


It’s still astounds me just how common, popular, and even expected zettai ryouiki design trope is. The way it caught fire in popular Japanese culture is something I have difficulty understanding from a logical POV.

It’s everywhere to the point I‘s readily waiting for any new game with an anime art style to have at least one instance of a variation of this trope and 90% of the time it does. And of the remaining 10 probably 5% is because it features girls in school uniforms and use socks only below the knee instead of over (which now that I think of it could be considered a spin off of the typical zettai ryouiki).

The craziest thing is that this fad (at least I think it should be a fashion fad) has been going on for a very long time now. Since shortly after the turn of the century and it doesn’t show signs of going away as all fashion fads tend to do.

The first instance of a sexualized anime girl I remember paying attention to that sported the now venerated thigh gap was probably Bible Black shortly after at the turn of the century (2002 I think). It’s been going on for more than 15 years strong now, at least this modern and ever present incarnation of the thigh gap in Japanese fiction.

To those living in Japan: is it common to see women in real life wearing thigh highs and mini skirts or shorts? Or is it more of an anime thing?
It is, I don't even know why some people in the west believes that this is something created from anime/manga when it's pretty much how it is in Japan for decades now. It's also true that many use underwear below it without anything outside of the skirt to protect, even if others do use some shorts below but that's more on something I asked my cousin so don't take it as a fact. I never lived in the country, but I was in Japan last year and it was my third time there since I have family on the country. Skirts, thighs and shorts are very common, even in winter (where obviously, most people uses some high tights to protect the legs of the cold). In Shinjuku and Harakuju you'll see that even more as young people are many times seems on there, even if many times you see older woman also using it. I saw many that looks like on their 30s using it as well.

Not even counting that japanese girls in school, for example, shorter their skirts not only to show some individuality but also because many dislikes how big the skirts are. In some schools of course the minimum size isn't bigger but some definitely are. My cousin which is a japanese teenager with 16 years (she was born there, her mother is brazilian and father is japanese) even said something similar about how she prefers it since she hates long skirts and it's why she uses some acessories to make it short, even if sometimes teachers and others from her school scold her but she does as her friends do the same and she thinks she looks better with it as well. Anyway, just something more personal as I was with and talked with her last year in person.

I'll post photos that I picked from google from japanese on street to give you examples.











And some for my examples of highschool/middle school girls with short skirts





















There's much more examples out there with images that you can find on google from everyday people but I think I put many examples already. And of course, skirts aren't the only thing women and girls wear but it's one of the most popular in Japan for sure in women fashion.
 
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Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,323
The fact so many of these photos seem to have been taken without consent makes me feel uncomfortable.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
Uh no, it wasn't like that, this is a pretty big misinformation. Some indeed were like that but others were just like this girl.



And the same scene is on the anime. It's alredy on the timespan where they appear so just click on the video.




It is, I don't even know why some people in the west believes that this is something created from anime/manga when it's pretty much how it is in Japan for decades now. It's also true that many use underwear below it without anything outside of the skirt to protect, even if others do use some shorts below but that's more on something I asked my cousin so don't take it as a fact. I never lived in the country, but I was in Japan last year and it was my third time there since I have family on the country. Skirts, thighs and shorts are very common, even in winter (where obviously, most people uses some high tights to protect the legs of the cold). In Shinjuku and Harakuju you'll see that even more as young people are many times seems on there, even if many times you see older woman also using it. I saw many that looks like on their 30s using it as well.

Not even counting that japanese girls in school, for example, shorter their skirts not only to show some individuality but also because many dislikes how big the skirts are. In some schools of course the minimum size isn't bigger but some definitely are. My cousin which is a japanese teenager with 16 years (she was born there, her mother is brazilian and father is japanese) even said something similar about how she prefers it since she hates long skirts and it's why she uses some acessories to make it short, even if sometimes teachers and others from her school scold her but she does as her friends do the same and she thinks she looks better with it as well. Anyway, just something more personal as I was with and talked with her last year in person.

I'll post photos that I picked from google from japanese on street to give you examples.











And some for my examples of highschool/middle school girls with short skirts





















There's much more examples out there with images that you can find on google from everyday people but I think I put many examples already. And of course, skirts aren't the only thing women and girls wear but it's one of the most popular in Japan for sure in women fashion.
Soooo manyyyy girls in short skirts walking in the snow! Makes me shiver just looking st them.

Well definitey it seems thigh highs and mini skirts/shorts are far more popular in Japan than they are over here. I’d never see that fashion out in the streets.
 

Deleted member 5535

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Soooo manyyyy girls in short skirts walking in the snow! Makes me shiver just looking st them.

Well definitey it seems thigh highs and mini skirts/shorts are far more popular in Japan than they are over here. I’d never see that fashion out in the streets.
You and me. I don't know how those girls and women are able to do that in snow or when it's so cold. I was almost freezing when I was in Japan with the snow and it was bizarre how they were wearing that. hahaha But I'm from Brazil which is a much more hot country for the most part of the regions so maybe that's one of the reasons as the winter here isn't that strong.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,256
Soooo manyyyy girls in short skirts walking in the snow! Makes me shiver just looking st them.

Well definitey it seems thigh highs and mini skirts/shorts are far more popular in Japan than they are over here. I’d never see that fashion out in the streets.
You and me. I don't know how those girls and women are able to do that in snow or when it's so cold. I was almost freezing when I was in Japan with the snow and it was bizarre how they were wearing that. hahaha But I'm from Brazil which is a much more hot country for the most part of the regions so maybe that's one of the reasons as the winter here isn't that strong.
I heard the problem there isn't short skirts and thigs, the actual vulgar clothing would be the ones that show cleavage, so you'd be more "vulgar" wearing a tank top than with ridiculously short shorts and thigh highs

Like, there might be some freaks that have a zettai ryouki fetish but it's not because of that fetish that japanese designs are like that =/


This is a video by a woman that lives in japan for a long time and explains the situation, tl;dr would be that legs aint as much as a fetish as it is in the west, but anything on the breast area is, I think there's one where she expands on that but I can't remember which it was anymore
 

Deleted member 5535

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I heard the problem there isn't short skirts and thigs, the actual vulgar clothing would be the ones that show cleavage, so you'd be more "vulgar" wearing a tank top than with ridiculously short shorts and thigh highs

Like, there might be some freaks that have a zettai ryouki fetish but it's not because of that fetish that japanese designs are like that =/


This is a video by a woman that lives in japan for a long time and explains the situation, tl;dr would be that legs aint as much as a fetish as it is in the west, but anything on the breast area is, I think there's one where she expands on that but I can't remember which it was anymore
Oh, not calling it vulgar or anything. I even find it very stylish in the majority of the cases. It's more that a skirt without something to protect your legs in winter just makes you feel cold on that area. Hell, even with some tights under the skirt I think it's going to feel cold. haha
 

esserius

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Oct 26, 2017
2,576
Yeah not wearing jeans or something when it's freezing is pretty weird. Even as a kid I didn't do that.
 

Mariip

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Oct 26, 2017
9,256
Oh, not calling it vulgar or anything. I even find it very stylish in the majority of the cases. It's more that a skirt without something to protect your legs in winter just makes you feel cold on that area. Hell, even with some tights under the skirt I think it's going to feel cold. haha
I remember this type of clothing triggered someone in this thread but im not sure who, sorry if i made that sound rude xD its just that i feel like its a pretty awkward thing to get annoyed by(i like that style too tbh , just dont like the people that have a fetish about it :/)
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I remember this type of clothing triggered someone in this thread but im not sure who, sorry if i made that sound rude xD its just that i feel like its a pretty awkward thing to get annoyed by(i like that style too tbh , just dont like the people that have a fetish about it :/)
Im not buying that legs arnt a big fetish in Japan. I've seen too many japanese characters in games and anime in ridicuouslyshort skirts and thigh highs that it must mean theres a sizeable population that loves seeing that part of the body exposed (specifically the part of the thigh between the stocking and the start of the skirt). There's just too many of these desgns to ignore. Not saying that breasts arent a bigger thing (pun intended) but this has to be pretty big too. At the very least it must be with the otaku/gamer crowd.

In a vacuum I have no problem with zettai ryouiki, I actually like how it looks. What bothers me is just how much there is it's become boring and forced.
 

Syril

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Oct 26, 2017
3,727
Im not buying that legs arnt a big fetish in Japan. I've seen too many japanese characters in games and anime in ridicuouslyshort skirts and thigh highs that it must mean theres a sizeable population that loves seeing that part of the body exposed (specifically the part of the thigh between the stocking and the start of the skirt). There's just too many of these desgns to ignore. Not saying that breasts arent a bigger thing (pun intended) but this has to be pretty big too. At the very least it must be with the otaku/gamer crowd.

In a vacuum I have no problem with zettai ryouiki, I actually like how it looks. What bothers me is just how much there is it's become boring and forced.
The absolute territory sure isn't referring to clothing. Also "absolute territory" is so plainly a euphemism it's ridiculous.
 

Biestmann

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Oct 25, 2017
3,323
I remember this type of clothing triggered someone in this thread but im not sure who, sorry if i made that sound rude xD its just that i feel like its a pretty awkward thing to get annoyed by(i like that style too tbh , just dont like the people that have a fetish about it :/)
That might have been me talking about Fire Emblem a few pages ago. As always, and like AztecComplex as well said, fashion styles existing is not a problem. The problem is the sheer quantity of it. Even more daring designs wouldn't be as problematic were they not shoved into every single game. When things become a trend is when we have a problem.

In the case of zettai ryouiki, you see it used everywhere now, even on outfits meant to be practical and offering protection. Because of this design trope however, the outfit becomes a joke instead. This is even worse when the male counterpart covers what it should. We mention PSO2 a lot here, but it shouldn't be a celebratory event when a pair of pants is released once every two years in that game's gacha. If you were to draw your knowledge about Japanese fashion from their games only, you would almost be inclined to believe nobody even wears pants in the country at all.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,471
(god eater 3)
You've heard of side boob, now get ready for side ass.



jesus these designs, what is this shirt. Looks like two halves of grandma's toilet seat cover held together by a button
I'm playing and enjoying God Eater 3 but yeah Hilda's design isn't great. Nothing in her personality as this leader of a caravan gives reason for her to dress like it. There's a clear disconnection between her design and writing.
 

nayriee

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Jan 26, 2019
160
Those Japanese school girl photos remind me of my uniform from high school here in Aus, literally the exact same down to the dark navy colour. It's really common here throughout the year that girls wear skirts at that length, the socks make more of an appearance during winter though.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,256
Im not buying that legs arnt a big fetish in Japan. I've seen too many japanese characters in games and anime in ridicuouslyshort skirts and thigh highs that it must mean theres a sizeable population that loves seeing that part of the body exposed (specifically the part of the thigh between the stocking and the start of the skirt). There's just too many of these desgns to ignore. Not saying that breasts arent a bigger thing (pun intended) but this has to be pretty big too. At the very least it must be with the otaku/gamer crowd.

In a vacuum I have no problem with zettai ryouiki, I actually like how it looks. What bothers me is just how much there is it's become boring and forced.
I mean, the small cleaveage shown in tank tops creates the same effect for some people, yet whenever a design is usung them people highly praise it even if it won’t look vulgar at all. I wonder if people in japan think these are a fetish in the west, for the same reason zettai ryouki is bad. If we think they like showing thighs for lews stuff they might think we use tank tops for the chance of seeing some boob D:
That might have been me talking about Fire Emblem a few pages ago. As always, and like AztecComplex as well said, fashion styles existing is not a problem. The problem is the sheer quantity of it. Even more daring designs wouldn't be as problematic were they not shoved into every single game. When things become a trend is when we have a problem.

In the case of zettai ryouiki, you see it used everywhere now, even on outfits meant to be practical and offering protection. Because of this design trope however, the outfit becomes a joke instead. This is even worse when the male counterpart covers what it should. We mention PSO2 a lot here, but it shouldn't be a celebratory event when a pair of pants is released once every two years in that game's gacha. If you were to draw your knowledge about Japanese fashion from their games only, you would almost be inclined to believe nobody even wears pants in the country at all.
well having designs with pants is a recent thing in gaming overall, west just used to tell the high thighs to fuck off :/ but yeah having them in armors is stupid af
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,576
I still find all these half-measures to be lazy and maybe worse because they perpetuate the false argument of this as progress. Sexism in this DoA6 style solves nothing and retains the core of the problem.
 

FallenGrace

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Oct 27, 2017
2,493
So played Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles on PS3 over that last few days and Ada Wong has one level in it in which she is introduced as:

Ada Wong
Female Spy

I mean why? Leon isn't introduced as "male policeman", Wesker isn't "male villain" So stupid. :/
 
Well, calling Leon a male policeman would be like calling Claire a female sister. ^^ But I see what you are getting at. It’s kinda strange that they felt the urge to underline her gender there.
I’m wachting a Let’s Play, and one of the guys was triggered quite a few times by Ada‘s misplaced outfit. The sunglasses in the dark, the fancy dress and those ridiculous high heels on top. When she got that shard into her leg, he instantly shouted: "That’s why you wear jeans!" Made me laugh so hard. ^^
At least they dressed Clair better than in the original.