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KujoJosuke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,741
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"
 

ShadowSwordmaster

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,476
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"
What did he say about Alita then?
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"

How...how exactly is Sweden "destroyed" by feminisms?
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"
Sweden a country sooo much detroyed by feminism that in 2015 the newest word to enter the Swedish dictionnary is the nickname everybody gives to
"Hide away from my angry because drunk up his ass husband shelter" .... Like for real right now there is a single word for that concept ...
 

Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Do people not yet understand that using "SJW" immediately outs them as having bad opinions that shoulnd't be taken seriously?

Where they come from SJW is consider a part of regular gamer language so when they come here to "troll" they don't realize that using it gives the whole jig up.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"
I wonder what a feminist boogeyman would even look like. I can just imagine my daughter tucked up in bed while someone whispers 'equality in representation and rights for women'. How terrifying she might find that, especially when it's her dad saying it.

Can't wait to see Captain Marvel, personally. It's not made for me, but then there's a dozen or more MCU films with white straight guys like me in the lead role and it's seemingly made for the person I care about most in the world. And it'll make a change from watching Peppa Pig, anyway! :D
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
He legit pulled the "Alita is so much better than Captain Marvel", which I've seen floating around with alt-righters trying to prop it up over CM
Thing is Alita is legit an attempt at conciating the OAV and the manga storyline and barely changing any story beat at all ...
Like for real Galy's story is barely changed at all the film is as pointless as live action Beauty and the Beast was ...
Do they really think "carbon copy with narry a change" is good adaptation work ?
Just how does those guys even think ???
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I have seen that too. I'm surprised that there is not a discussion about on here.
Someone mentioned that to me the other day, and I was really surprised the alt right adopted it. 'Yeah, go see the film about the badass female cyborg that rips apart male gladiators, that'll show 'em!' :D

Edit- is Alita really just an adaptation of the OVA? I quite enjoyed that in the 90s, and obviously it has an arc length tailor-made for a film, but hoped they'd do or add something a little different.
 

ShadowSwordmaster

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,476
Someone mentioned that to me the other day, and I was really surprised the alt right adopted it. 'Yeah, go see the film about the badass female cyborg that rips apart male gladiators, that'll show 'em!' :D

Edit- is Alita really just an adaptation of the OVA? I quite enjoyed that in the 90s, and obviously it has an arc length tailor-made for a film, but hoped they'd do or add something a little different.
I think it is based on anime that also could be a reason.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Someone mentioned that to me the other day, and I was really surprised the alt right adopted it. 'Yeah, go see the film about the badass female cyborg that rips apart male gladiators, that'll show 'em!' :D
What's even worse is that Gally's constant change of over all body parts and sometimes full armor suits , is a constant comment on women's constant lack of bodily anatomy even reborn as a cyborg , and it always seem to litterally fly right above their heads ...
 
Oct 28, 2017
862
Actually playing through DMCV, I'm a bit more conflicted over Lady's and Trish's designs because they were desexualized from DMC4's designs. Trish's breast size was reduced to be closer to her DMC1's design and Lady actually wears clothes. The problem is that they kind of...are just there. I do think that DMCV was trying to reduce the amount of fanservice (as bad as Lady's naked scene is, I haven't come across anything as bad as the Gloria fight in DMC4) but ended up kind of not really having anything to do with the characters other than being a pair of extra hands.

Trish in DMC4:

dmc1_4_trish.png


Trish in DMCV:

dmc5_trish_0.png

It's still the same outfit but her bust size has decreased to be more in line with DMC1's design.

Lady's kind of annoys me since it is an improvement over DMC4's but there's...uh...I don't think Lady knows what the purpose of pants are...

DMC4 Lady
dmc4_lady.png


DMC V Lady
dmc5_lady_2.png

Like there is a clear attempt to tone down the sexualization of the character from IV for both characters (more obviously lady) in the design. But while that is a positive (for the most part because again, Lady and pants seem like a foreign concept at this point), their use in the story is greatly diminished and they still get a few fanservice scenes really for no reason.

Most of this is probably just a side effect of their new face scan tech and the more realistic art design choices for 5. Resident Evil is a very popular franchise worldwide and it is in Capcom's best interests to tone down the sexualization. DMC is still comparatively niche so they don't have to pretend they care as much.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
...I haven't seen Alita yet.
You read the manga ? You've seen the original OAVs from the 90's ?
Then you've seen two better version of the story and also you've seen a writer , and then an animation studio director both be confident enough about their female lead to not shoe horn a male love interest too soon and let Gally develop on her own lonesome for quite a while ...

For those of you who do not remember we follow Gally after she's discovered by Ido for THREE WHOLE YEARS before she meets with Yugo ...
Putting him in the first movie is :
A : way to early
B : pointless
C : Destroy the very reason why he was the FIRST lover but not the last ...
 

Wanderer5

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,982
Somewhere.
Oh hey another ban!

Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"

Did she actually say that, or is that just stupid BS from manbabies? I just only found her wanting more diversity in her press days, which I don't think is quite the same thing, but whatever.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
You read the manga ? You've seen the original OAVs from the 90's ?
Then you've seen two better version of the story and also you've seen a writer , and then an animation studio director both be confident enough about their female lead to not shoe horn a male love interest too soon and let Gally develop on her own lonesome for quite a while ...

For those of you who do not remember we follow Gally after she's discovered by Ido for THREE WHOLE YEARS before she meets with Yugo ...
Putting him in the first movie is :
A : way to early
B : pointless
C : Destroy the very reason why he was the FIRST lover but not the last ...

I...haven't read the manga either...
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,882
Finland
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"
Hmmm, isn't Sweden actually pretty fucking great by many metrics. Things like safety, freedom, enviromental sustainability, gender equality(!) etc. So yeah not a bad idea to travel there actually, or even live!

Also for the Brie Larson quote, I don't think it was about Captain Marvel but about Wrinkle in Time when she said: "But if you make a movie that is a love letter to women of colour there is an insanely low chance that a woman of colour would get to see that movie ... I don't need a 40-year-old white dude to tell me what didn't work about A Wrinkle in Time." And even then, she was just asking for more diversity in the field of film criticism, not saying white men shouldn't see the movie. She wasn't adressing the audience, neither was she talking about Captain Marvel. Your coworker is grossly misinformed, probably watches Youtube a lot.
 
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Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
But but Ferrs! If white men are the center of attention only 98% of the time instead of 99.9999999999999% of the time, then it's the exact same thing as white genocide. /s

Between the dumb fucks in all CM related stuff this week, and the dumb fucks today in all International Women's Day tweets and threads with the " but what about men's day" I had enough of fragile idiots for a year... sigh.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Between the dumb fucks in all CM related stuff this week, and the dumb fucks today in all International Women's Day tweets and threads with the " but what about men's day" I had enough of fragile idiots for a year...

Yeah, it's getting to a point where it feels like I need to say "Happy "International Men's Day Is In November, Stop Asking" day!" at times with all those smartasses complaining about a day for women.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Yeah, it's getting to a point where it feels like I need to say "Happy "International Men's Day Is In November, Stop Asking" day!" at times with all those smartasses complaining about a day for women.

I'm even more bothered with the dudes that know what men's day is and expect it to have the same repercussion than women's day. Like, there's a reason why women's day is so important and if you still don't know why you need to do a lot of learning...
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,518
DMC5 has issues, but there's one thing I was really pleasantly surprised by. When Nico works on stuff she actually changes into a more practical outfit so that she wouldn't burn herself.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,617
Brazil
My favorite thing about "cutting creativity" is that ...it is the EXACT OPPOSITE that we are doing.

Execs force games to have white hetero cis dudes as protagonists because marketing tells that white hetero cis dudes is the "main marketing group".
Literally knowing they have backup to change every one of those 4 characteristics means amplifying the amount of possibilities that creative can flow to. It literally gives more freedom so their creativity have more options to choose.

Also games need more straight women that forces the played to kiss a man.

He legit pulled the "Alita is so much better than Captain Marvel", which I've seen floating around with alt-righters trying to prop it up over CM

I love the "boycot disney by watching this movie that will be owned by disney in na few weeks"
 

Murkas

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
614
Yeah, it's getting to a point where it feels like I need to say "Happy "International Men's Day Is In November, Stop Asking" day!" at times with all those smartasses complaining about a day for women.

Fun fact! Google search results for "International Men's Day" always spikes during the month of March, higher than November when it takes place. Just a co-iniky dink I'm sure!

HZihuAd.jpg
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
My favorite thing about "cutting creativity" is that ...it is the EXACT OPPOSITE that we are doing.

Execs force games to have white hetero cis dudes as protagonists because marketing tells that white hetero cis dudes is the "main marketing group".
Literally knowing they have backup to change every one of those 4 characteristics means amplifying the amount of possibilities that creative can flow to. It literally gives more freedom so their creativity have more options to choose.

Also games need more straight women that forces the played to kiss a man.



I love the "boycot disney by watching this movie that will be owned by disney in na few weeks"
It can be internalized, too. I was reading some stuff from an author who made his living hammering out genre fiction on Amazon. Effective use of tropes and knowing how the audience reacts to them, he claimed, was a key to his success. One example was grizzled starship captains in military science fiction. He talked about how far you could take the trope and keep it fresh without straying to far from what makes it appealing. But he said making the grizzled starship captain a woman would result in less reader engagement, and therefore less money. Doesn't matter how well written and compelling she is, he claims, it will impact his bottom line.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
Had a coworker throw a tantrum in our work chat because Brie Larsen said Captain Marvel wasn't for white men, which spiraled into him saying that "feminism is destroying western civilization" and that I was "low iq" and if i traveled to another county like Sweden "destroyed by feminists" I would see that.

All after I said "oh no, not feminism, the scariest boogeyman"
In my experience, people who brag about their IQ aren't nearly as clever as they think they are.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,617
Brazil
It can be internalized, too. I was reading some stuff from an author who made his living hammering out genre fiction on Amazon. Effective use of tropes and knowing how the audience reacts to them, he claimed, was a key to his success. One example was grizzled starship captains in military science fiction. He talked about how far you could take the trope and keep it fresh without straying to far from what makes it appealing. But he said making the grizzled starship captain a woman would result in less reader engagement, and therefore less money. Doesn't matter how well written and compelling she is, he claims, it will impact his bottom line.

Absolutely!
A friend who works in game art said it took her a long time to deconstruct her views on how she should design women for games because she focused so much on entering the industry that she was SURE she would only enter it if she drew objectified women.

And having more options means MORE creativity
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Captain Marvel's a fun movie.
I still don't care about Carol's current status and why Marvel keeps making a big deal out of her.
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
My favorite thing about "cutting creativity" is that ...it is the EXACT OPPOSITE that we are doing.

Execs force games to have white hetero cis dudes as protagonists because marketing tells that white hetero cis dudes is the "main marketing group".
Literally knowing they have backup to change every one of those 4 characteristics means amplifying the amount of possibilities that creative can flow to. It literally gives more freedom so their creativity have more options to choose.

Also games need more straight women that forces the played to kiss a man.

I also feel like they're equivocating about art whenever it suits them. I'm not really a lit crit person, and I'm sure we could cast a ton of suspicion on auteur theory or something, but the notion of 'creative vision' is a compelling one because it seems directed towards disclosing something new. At its best art is basically articulating into form some new idea or feeling. Anime tiddies are virtually completely opposite that. I mean a big reason these people's 'creative' decisions fall under criticism is that they're basically unreflectively recycling tropes. It's like saying that a visionary and a hack are the same thing, which should be false just on the face of it.
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Yugo is a terrible character in the manga as well.
He was horrible but served a narrative purpose and also Gally was in love with him he didn't reciprocate and was a big doofus about it all , but he had a narrative purpose and led Gally to progress as a character. Sure he was a fairly flat character ( not too surprising given he isn't the focus of the story and is a a throwaway for Gally to grow up ) .

Buuut in the movie he arrives so fast and they do so little with him that he might as well not be there .
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
It's irritating when 'creative freedom!' often comes up in defence of sexualised design when so much of the criticism of it is how boring and templated that 'creative' objectification is. Particularly JRPG characters.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
It can be internalized, too. I was reading some stuff from an author who made his living hammering out genre fiction on Amazon. Effective use of tropes and knowing how the audience reacts to them, he claimed, was a key to his success. One example was grizzled starship captains in military science fiction. He talked about how far you could take the trope and keep it fresh without straying to far from what makes it appealing. But he said making the grizzled starship captain a woman would result in less reader engagement, and therefore less money. Doesn't matter how well written and compelling she is, he claims, it will impact his bottom line.
Honor Harrigton book series struggles to please because actual woman admiral that have seen way too many battlefields doesn't seem to interest a lot of people yes.
In fact Honor Harrigton only managed to get a good momentum once the writer started to have a "will they won't they" underlying thread with Honor's relationship with the Queen ...
Seriously guys it took the allure of potential "lesbo action" to get the dudes to read ...
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I haven't played XCOM 2, so I couldn't really answer on that.
She's got a tiny plot all to her own and even joins your squad to help you in some mission ( Hell I'd like her to create Gremlins as powerfull as hers for my squad ... selfish genius ... yes I'm pouting ... don't judge me , play the game and you'll see you'll be jealous too )

And well the story is cool and fleshes out her character more than a bit.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I
Honor Harrigton book series struggles to please because actual woman admiral that have seen way too many battlefields doesn't seem to interest a lot of people yes.
In fact Honor Harrigton only managed to get a good momentum once the writer started to have a "will they won't they" underlying thread with Honor's relationship with the Queen ...
Seriously guys it took the allure of potential "lesbo action" to get the dudes to read ...
I've read a lot of pulp military sci-fi, and they've mostly fallen into the realm of 'understand the physics of dynamic space combat really well but can't write characters for toffee' (Jack Campbell), or those that struggle with both. I do really like Marko Kloos's 'Frontlines' series though, that's probably the strongest all-round military sci-fi I've read in years, which has it's main female characters as an infantry NCO and a dropship Pilot. Really good use of truly alien enemies and an understanding of time/distance in the scales involved, although the lead is a grizzled bloke again.

So many series really struggle with characters that aren't military cliches grounded in the 20th century, such a shame considering the potential.

Are there any that you'd recommend? I don't think I've read the Honor Harrington ones but have heard of them. Just finished Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice series and that was amazing, just packed with new ideas and fascinating characters. I suppose the lead, as an AI that formerly commanded a battleship, is literally an object but I loved them all the same for their detached commentary on the nature of human identity/relationships in a distant future.

I've noticed more relatively new and lauded female writers in swords-and-sorcery fantasy rather than sci-fi recently, as you suggest, the audience for military sci-fi is particularly tenacious regarding anyone straying too far from it's favoured tropes. Same goes for thrillers, I suppose, which is why Lee Child can get away with writing 20 Jack Reacher books that are as formulaic as they are popular.
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I've noticed more relatively new and lauded female writers in swords-and-sorcery fantasy rather than sci-fi recently, presumably the audience for military sci-fi is particularly fond of its favoured tropes. Same goes for thrillers, I suppose, which is why Lee Child can get away with writing 20 Jack Reacher books that are as formulaic as they are popular.
Sadly outside of Honor Harrigton most of the space opera in a militaritic environement I'm reading is written by french women (who are almost all French Navy Veterans , who use to have high grade ) sooo sadly I can't recommend Honor Harrington enough because it's the only one I can reccomend to an english speaking audience .
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,410
Beaumont, CA
I think it is based on anime that also could be a reason.

Yeah, it could very well be. After the first Captain Marvel trailer dropped, I saw one of the related videos was a clip from the new Asia-only Avengers anime. It seems to be gone now, I can't find it, but I saw most of the comments were praising and fawning over the anime version of Captain Marvel was better than "emotionless ugly hack Brie Larson".
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Just finished Ann Leckie's Ancillary Justice series and that was amazing, just packed with new ideas and fascinating characters. I suppose the lead, as an AI that formerly commanded a battleship, is literally an object but I loved them all the same for their detached commentary on the nature of human identity/relationships in a distant future.

Ancillary Justice is amazing and should be mandatory reading for anyone even remotely interested in feminism and gender theory. As if that wasn't enough, it won the Nebula, Hugo, Arthur C. Clark AND Locus awards (!!!). It's that fucking good.

Tiny bit from Wikipedia (the Radchaai are the empire most main characters hail from):

The Radchaai do not distinguish people by gender, which Leckie conveys by using female personal pronouns for everybody.

It's the kind of book that makes anti-SJWs have an anneurysm. :D The sequels are also good, but the first one is just incredible.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Sadly outside of Honor Harrigton most of the space opera in a militaritic environement I'm reading is written by french women (who are almost all French Navy Veterans , who use to have high grade ) sooo sadly I can't recommend Honor Harrington enough because it's the only one I can reccomend to an english speaking audience .

Looks like the first one is free on Kindle. With 14+ books it's a marketing strategy that often works on me with long series, if I like something I'll binge on the lot, it's just getting me to try it in my limited reading time! Thanks for the recommendation.

Ancillary Justice is amazing and should be mandatory reading for anyone even remotely interested in feminism and gender theory. As if that wasn't enough, it won the Nebula, Hugo, Arthur C. Clark AND Locus awards (!!!). It's that fucking good.

Tiny bit from Wikipedia (the Radchaai are the empire most main characters hail from):

The Radchaai do not distinguish people by gender, which Leckie conveys by using female personal pronouns for everybody.

It's the kind of book that makes anti-SJWs have an anneurysm. :D The sequels are also good, but the first one is just incredible.

Yeah the first was definitely the best, I knew it was something special really fast, and only found out about how highly it was regarded later on.
 
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