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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Oct 25, 2017
7,402
The quotes still exist. It's basic courtesy. You can also explain the edit reason.
It's just all my previous replies were made on the assumption that she was actually a male anime fan, so the posts don't even make sense now that I know she's not. That totally changes the situation and my reaction to it. I'd have never made those posts if I knew she was a woman.

I went ahead and edited anyway though.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,178
User Warned: Personal attacks and off-site drama.
Why, so you can call them hostile?


I was being direct. There's a huge difference.
Someone reminded me of other names you've gone under and it reminded me of how you were deemed too toxic to be allowed in a women's Discord. Maybe it's because you're a hostile person.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,317
People are accusing her of being a pedophile, I tend to bow out from discussions when that happens, personally, because it seems pretty toxic.
No one is saying she or her artist is a paedophile. Just that the design is not that of an adult woman and drawing such designs is problematic.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,819
Other than that, I honestly don't see the point in coming into a thread, presenting a design for criticism, having like five different people tell you "that's a kid", then shrugging, going "I'm not seeing it" and going on your merry way. Did you really seek opinions, or validation?
Tell me which universe has children with proportions like that? The face seems rather cute by the artists design, but if this is about the body then you and every other person who has claimed as such are mistaken and need to pay more attention. She has a hourglass frame, her arms extend past the belt area. Her legs are long.
 
No one is saying she or her artist is a paedophile. Just that the design is not that of an adult woman and drawing such designs is problematic.
I don't want to pile onto the escalating hostility in here, but I do feel obligated to point out:

I'm not disrespecting your artist. It's clear that they want to draw a pervy childish illustration. You don't accidentally make an adult look prepubescent. And if that's what the artist wants to draw, that's what they want to draw. It's up to you to decide if you want this perv representing you or not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,178
How do you not realize that you're the one who's being hostile here? Holy shit.
Like, it just feels like your expectation is that the level of hostility you exhibit should be met with gentleness. *shrugs* Like, maybe relax if you don't want people to call you out.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
I can't really agree. The girl in your photo has one tooth all by her lonesome.



These are sharp more prominent fangs, wide and not more vertically shaped like the one you listed. There's a set and her teeth are in full showing.
Hm, that's fair. I guess it's more because of how small their are in relation in whole of the picture. I will say that I do agree that the character looks young but also looks like its attempting to do the mix and match anime conventions that many modern anime do which is why many people are pointing out the elements that are usually indicators of young characters (headcount etc) despite the proportions are actually more of an adult (though I will say even there I do find it more muted)
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,406
newport beach, CA
It feels like my input is no longer wanted and I can see that. Even though my intent was just directness, not hostility, it was interpreted as hostility by multiple people and I'm only going to dig a deeper hole by defending that. So I'll back down for now. Sorry for the ruckus I contributed to.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,819
Hm, that's fair. I guess it's more because of how small their are in relation in whole of the picture. I will say that I do agree that the character looks young but also looks like its attempting to do the mix and match anime conventions that many modern anime do which is why many people are pointing out the elements that are usually indicators of young characters (headcount etc) despite the proportions are actually more of an adult (though I will say even there I do find it more muted)
I'm assuming it's because the character is very clothed up so it makes it harder to notice but this in turn is ironic for this thread that a clothed character is receiving criticism in this regard. I also told the artist to not give her large breasts and give her smaller ones since big titty anime characters are so prominent I wanted to be unique.
 
You do know that people come in all different sizes and shapes right? That body chart is a bit weird. So my best friends gf who is like 22 and looks like a 15-16 yo teen or me a male who is like 24 and looks like 16.

My sister also looks younger and is small and is 20. Also a woman friend of mine from college is like in the 4'11 ft and flat chested and over 20.

Like you cant use this weird body ratio thing it makes no sense at all adult people come in different shapes and sizes and some young adults do look like teenagers.

Sorry my english is not perfect i am just trying to say that body shape and height etc can vary alot. And that adults indeed can look very young.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,317
Tell me which universe has children with proportions like that? The face seems rather cute by the artists design, but if this is about the body then you and every other person who has claimed as such are mistaken and need to pay more attention. She has a hourglass frame, her arms extend past the belt area. Her legs are long.
That character looks like a child. There's absolutely no denying that. The only good thing to say about her is that she's not hyper sexualized, but that is not an adult character. That is the kind of character who would be 16 in the Japanese version of Senran Kagura switched to 18 in the western localization to avoid criticism.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,450
Madrid
Tell me which universe has children with proportions like that?
This one? You know, the one where kids go through a thing called puberty? We're going to pretend secondary sexual characteristics like hips, bust and beards appear with a loud pop when the clock strikes 12 on a kid's 18th birthday? :D

The face seems rather cute by the artists design, but if this is about the body then you and every other person who has claimed as such are mistaken and need to pay more attention. She has a hourglass frame, her arms extend past the belt area. Her legs are long.
Yeah, OK, whatever you want to believe. Kids look like 8 year olds until they enter a coccoon and emerge as adults. You wanted to get validation that this is an adult, and obviously you're not going to accept that you're not getting it; this conversation is the epitome of pointless.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
Yeah pertaining to body ratios - there is no official universal template for how many heads an adult should be. 6 to 7 is usually the average, 8 uncommonly, and sometimes even 5ish. This is in real life too.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,819
This one? You know, the one where kids go through a thing called puberty? We're going to pretend secondary sexual characteristics like hips, bust and beards appear with a loud pop when the clock strikes 12 on a kid's 18th birthday? :D



Yeah, OK, whatever you want to believe. Kids look like 8 year olds until they enter a coccoon and emerge as adults. You wanted to get validation that this is an adult, and obviously you're not going to accept that you're not getting it; this conversation is the epitome of pointless.
So you ignored everything I just said and went with this strange assumption.

You do you I guess.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,317
You do know that people come in all different sizes and shapes right? That body chart is a bit weird. So my best friends gf who is like 22 and looks like a 15-16 yo teen or me a male who is like 24 and looks like 16.

My sister also looks younger and is small and is 20. Also a woman friend of mine from college is like in the 4'11 ft and flat chested and over 20.

Like you cant use this weird body ratio thing it makes no sense at all adult people come in different shapes and sizes and some young adults do look like teenagers.

Sorry my english is not perfect i am just trying to say that body shape and height etc can vary alot. And that adults indeed can look very young.
This ain't real life, though. If you want to make a character appear like an adult, why not draw her more like one? Unless it's for a story about an adult woman who looks like she is 15 and struggles being taken seriously in her school/university/professional/personal life, I see no reason to draw such young looking "adults".
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,450
Madrid
It feels like my input is no longer wanted and I can see that. Even though my intent was just directness, not hostility, it was interpreted as hostility by multiple people and I'm only going to dig a deeper hole by defending that. So I'll back down for now. Sorry for the ruckus I contributed to.
Uh, "sorry that my directness was interpreted by hostility by multiple people" is a pretty textbook non-apology. Just saying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
I'm assuming it's because the character is very clothed up so it makes it harder to notice but this in turn is ironic for this thread that a clothed character is receiving criticism in this regard. I also told the artist to not give her large breasts and give her smaller ones since big titty anime characters are so prominent I wanted to be unique.
Hmmmm...no I don't thinks it's the clothing. I don't know how others saw this, but when looking at this for the first time, my first thought was "hm, the face looks a little young for an adult". I do think the issue here is the face mostly. The head proportion thing didn't really come into my mind at first because you first showed us only the upper proportions of the character. I do honestly think the character looks "young" though. What age did you have in mind for the character? Fresh adult 18-19 or done a few years of college 21 years?

I do think that the reason why there was an earlier hostility towards you (which while I was not a part of I do apologize for) was because there was an earlier discussion on anime proportions and the infanilization of anime characters via using shorthand traditionally used for younger characters (such as eyes) on older characters in combination with this thread getting a bit on edge over the weekend. So when you posted that it kind of...uh...reignited the spark. Again I do want to apologize for that.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,450
Madrid
So you ignored everything I just said and went with this strange assumption.

You do you I guess.
Your argument was literally "she has a hourglass figure and long legs so she must be an adult". I didn't ignore it, I simply pointed out its absurdity.

I get that you're defensive over what Sabrina said of your artist, and frankly I don't see anything particularly problematic with your design, as long as you acknowledge she looks 14, tops, and proceed as such. Otherwise this is just another shitty 1000 year old dragon Nowi situation.

Anyhow, I've given you my feedback which is what you purportedly wanted, and this thread has somehow become a war zone for no discernible reason, so I'm out.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,819
Hmmmm...no I don't thinks it's the clothing. I don't know how others saw this, but when looking at this for the first time, my first thought was "hm, the face looks a little young for an adult". I do think the issue here is the face mostly. The head proportion thing didn't really come into my mind at first because you first showed us only the upper proportions of the character. I do honestly think the character looks "young" though. What age did you have in mind for the character? Fresh adult 18-19 or done a few years of college 21 years?

I do think that the reason why there was an earlier hostility towards you (which while I was not a part of I do apologize for) was because there was an earlier discussion on anime proportions and the infanilization of anime characters via using shorthand traditionally used for younger characters (such as eyes) on older characters in combination with this thread getting a bit on edge over the weekend. So when you posted that it kind of...uh...reignited the spark. Again I do want to apologize for that.
It's suppose to be 18. This artist has a cuteness to their drawing but they only really draw big butt big titty anime chars (nothing wrong with that). Mine really is the exception for them.

Your argument was literally "she has a hourglass figure and long legs so she must be an adult". I didn't ignore it, I simply pointed out its absurdity.
So we have people in this thread claiming teeth = loli, but I point out the adult proportions on the character and you're claiming that's absurd?

If the character has adult proportions, then no that is not a child. That doesn't look like a child. If there's some sort of issue with how the artist drew the face, anime art-style whichever sure, but there's no way I personally can see how that body shape is that of a child. It's just not possible.

I also feel something you and several other people here have failed to pay attention to is art-style, which is why I always look at the proportions.
 

Snormy

Stuck in the Thanus
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,045
What do y'all think of my charracter here? (Not my drawing but the character is mine and I had this commissioned).

She's an adult, has a midriff but that's really cause it's hot where I live! (Texas).
There are certain features that make her look younger to me. The way she stands with her foot facing inwards, dress, fangs/expression and face in general gives off a feeling of mischief and immaturity. This is usually fine if it is for a scene or there is some context but when it is the only thing we have, it does make me lean towards childish appearance. The head also seems a bit big but this might just me style. Overall I get a generic anime/JRPG heroine impression regarding her age. I think posing and framing can also play a role here. It would be interesting to see her in different images with objects and other people for example.

For some comparisons using Persona 5 she reminds me of Futaba while if i'm to imagine a young adult woman I think of something more like Sae, Ohya, Takemi. Thinking about young adult women in anime style I'm actually not drawing up a huge list, let alone older or more mature looking women. I won't be surprised if I'm already bias and view most anime style in a way that I'm assuming the characters are young.

For what its worth I think in your avatar she looks more adult than the larger images.

She reminds of Aoko from Melty Blood who I think is not specified but early adult given the story pieces and comparisons to other characters.


Huh. When I open profile in new tab I see nothing. Did they remove that from the profile page? This is where I was looking:
The gender information is currently in the "About" tab of the profile main page. If you're on mobile it should be on the main profile page. If you're on desktop you can hover your cursor on a profile name and see it on the tool tip that pops up.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,370
Yeah pertaining to body ratios - there is no official universal template for how many heads an adult should be. 6 to 7 is usually the average, 8 uncommonly, and sometimes even 5ish. This is in real life too.
I think part of the issue here is that styles like that can tend to render faces without much detail which closes off one of the avenues for conveying age or maturity, so in the absence of that you fall back on other signifiers like eye size, expression, or proportions.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
This ain't real life, though. If you want to make a character appear like an adult, why not draw her more like one? Unless it's for a story about an adult woman who looks like she is 15 and struggles being taken seriously in her school/university/professional/personal life, I see no reason to draw such young looking "adults".
I appreciate when adult characters aren't always 7 or 8 heads tall (8 is usually the height of supermodel looks). In fact 6 heads is more relatable as far as average human proportioning goes, though I recall that different parts of the world have varying average heights. I think you might mean more the width of the character's face in proportion to its head body ratio, since the slimmer the face (or the less cheek the character has I guess) and the smaller the eyes the older she would be perceived. This is where the style of the artist and a lot of anime muddle the perceptions of whether a character is considered mature or not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
It's suppose to be 18. This artist has a cuteness to their drawing but they only really draw big butt big titty anime chars (nothing wrong with that). Mine really is the exception for them.


So we have people in this thread claiming teeth = loli, but I point out the adult proportions on the character and you're claiming that's absurd?

If the character has adult proportions, then no that is not a child. That doesn't look like a child. If there's some sort of issue with how the artist drew the face, anime art-style whichever sure, but there's no way I personally can see how that body shape is that of a child. It's just not possible.

I also feel something you and several other people here have failed to pay attention to is art-style, which is why I always look at the proportions.
I mean, to be fair, some art styles are infamous for abusing this ideal in the oppai loli artstyle which purposefully puts large breasts on characters far too young to have them (not saying your artist does this).

As for the age, I guess it can work though I do think it barely reaches the mark. Though another thing you have brought up is that you are familiar with the artist's artstyle, which does make it easier to tell the age of character in relation to other characters, something we don't have so we tend to fall back to the default standards.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,450
Madrid
It's suppose to be 18. This artist has a cuteness to their drawing but they only really draw big butt big titty anime chars (nothing wrong with that). Mine really is the exception for them.


So we have people in this thread claiming teeth = loli, but I point out the adult proportions on the character and you're claiming that's absurd?

If the character has adult proportions, then no that is not a child. That doesn't look like a child. If there's some sort of issue with how the artist drew the face, anime art-style whichever sure, but there's no way I personally can see how that body shape is that of a child. It's just not possible.

I also feel something you and several other people here have failed to pay attention to is art-style, which is why I always look at the proportions.
Kokonoe: "Give me your opinion of this adult character".
Morrigan, Dary, Foot, Icemonk191, Famassu, Weltall, Molnizzle, Sabrina, Xaszatm: "That's a kid".
Kokonoe: "That's just not possible".

OK then. Good night.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,317
It's suppose to be 18. This artist has a cuteness to their drawing but they only really draw big butt big titty anime chars (nothing wrong with that). Mine really is the exception for them.
Sooooo our assertion that your artist is a perv who likes to draw problematic, underage looking characters was correct, lol.


So we have people in this thread claiming teeth = loli, but I point out the adult proportions on the character and you're claiming that's absurd?

If the character has adult proportions, then no that is not a child. That doesn't look like a child. If there's some sort of issue with how the artist drew the face, anime art-style whichever sure, but there's no way I personally can see how that body shape is that of a child. It's just not possible.
you do understand that when we speak about her looking like a child, we don't mean 7 year olds, but anything up to 16 year old or so.

I also feel something you and several other people here have failed to pay attention to is art-style, which is why I always look at the proportions.
No, "cutesy art style" does not give a pass to infentalized female characters. Proportions aren't everything. A 15-16 year old can have the kind of proportions you talk about, just like an 18 year old can still look like they are 15. Your character taken as a whole looks underage.
 
Oct 25, 2017
163
Correct me if im wrong but ive always seen the whole tooth that sticks out for cuteness referred to as snaggletooth instead of fangs. Usually being one tooth sticking out instead of the bigger than normal canine teeth. For example this is what i see when i search anime snaggletooth.... pretty much the whole cute thing.

 
Nov 14, 2017
599
Proportions do matter. The design reads as a young to mid teenager. I don't think the anime trend of aging down the visual design for older characters is at all healthy. I don't think it would take much to put her design into the desired age range.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
Correct me if im wrong but ive always seen the whole tooth that sticks out for cuteness referred to as snaggletooth instead of fangs. Usually being one tooth sticking out instead of the bigger than normal canine teeth. For example this is what i see when i search anime snaggletooth.... pretty much the whole cute thing.
To be fair, I was going off of the tv tropes page "little bit beastly" which does call them fangs rather than snaggletooth which probably would have fit what I wanted to say better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,863
Kokonoe
Regulars of this thread discuss what they think are shortcomings of modern female anime designs day in day out. Before you asked for an opinion on this drawing for instance, we were talking about how big eyes are used to infantilize women in the medium based on the new Fire Emblem protagonist. So these responses come from people that are used to being very critical of what they see with the intent of having their voices heard. This is the kind of thread this is, and you will hear the opinions you have because of that. Judging your drawing as just that - as a drawing - it really is just the style you'd see commonly used to portray even adults in modern anime. I have no qualms with you seeing her that way for that reason. But you need to understand that this is precisely what is criticized here so often. So it makes only sense the same criticism would be applied to what you have shown us here.
 
Oct 27, 2017
118
It's suppose to be 18. This artist has a cuteness to their drawing but they only really draw big butt big titty anime chars (nothing wrong with that). Mine really is the exception for them.


So we have people in this thread claiming teeth = loli, but I point out the adult proportions on the character and you're claiming that's absurd?

If the character has adult proportions, then no that is not a child. That doesn't look like a child. If there's some sort of issue with how the artist drew the face, anime art-style whichever sure, but there's no way I personally can see how that body shape is that of a child. It's just not possible.

I also feel something you and several other people here have failed to pay attention to is art-style, which is why I always look at the proportions.
To add my take, my initial impression even when accounting for anime art style was 13-16. And I watch a lot of anime. I would not have guessed your character was supposed to be an adult. Like others are saying, I think it's the face that's responsible. Her head is rather large in proportion to her body, which combined with the large facial features makes her appear younger than you perhaps intended.

You've brought up the subject of adult proportions and in other posts specifically mentioned her hips, but given this is using an anime art style I still feel like that isn't as sure of a bet as you'd think. If you're not familiar with the game Tera, google Elin (or don't, that might be better). They're an all female race of young girls with improbably wide hips. Younger looking than your character appears, but I just wanted to make a point that features like hips or breast size aren't a great metric for judging an anime character's age. Artists will put waist/breasts of any size on a character of any age, usually for the purpose of sexualization.

Given what you've written in this thread I'd imagine you had no intent of your commissioned character coming off as sexualized and what matters in the end is if you're happy with it. However if your goal was for her to have most people read her as an adult, the artist missed the mark.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,997
That's the baby dlc, right?
yes but the whole thing is just horribly written and completely goes against the entire character.And on top of that, the whole premise of the dlc is just an afterthought, is barely adressed and it ends up being just a smaller rehash of the main story. Ugh.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,317
I appreciate when adult characters aren't always 7 or 8 heads tall (8 is usually the height of supermodel looks). In fact 6 heads is more relatable as far as average human proportioning goes, though I recall that different parts of the world have varying average heights. I think you might mean more the width of the character's face in proportion to its head body ratio, since the slimmer the face (or the less cheek the character has I guess) and the smaller the eyes the older she would be perceived. This is where the style of the artist and a lot of anime muddle the perceptions of whether a character is considered mature or not.
Yeah, I do think SOMETHING needs to give more indication of age. If you want to draw an adult who is small in size, nothing wrong with that, but then I think otherwise there should be some indicators of older age. A character with the head:body proportion of a child with a flawless, round baby faced head and huge eyes doesn't come off as an adult, no matter if there's some hourglass body going on.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,317
yes but the whole thing is just horribly written and completely goes against the entire character.And on top of that, the whole premise of the dlc is just an afterthought, is barely adressed and it ends up being just a smaller rehash of the main story. Ugh.
Weren't they going to fix that DLC to be less shitty in an (still upcoming?) patch/update?
 
Nov 14, 2017
599
Facial shapes, especially with female anime characters, is always a problem. A small character can still look like an adult if the head and facial features are shaped and proportioned right but typical anime styles have like, one or two head shapes that are mostly featureless, so age indicators just don't exist within many anime designs. This is why female characters either read as very young or very old, with nothing existing visually in between. There aren't a lot of female characters that actually look like 30 or 40 somethings. Male characters get more detail to their faces.
 
Feb 19, 2018
2,023
Facial shapes, especially with female anime characters, is always a problem. A small character can still look like an adult if the head and facial features are shaped and proportioned right but typical anime styles have like, one or two head shapes that are mostly featureless, so age indicators just don't exist within many anime designs. This is why female characters either read as very young or very old, with nothing existing visually in between. There aren't a lot of female characters that actually look like 30 or 40 somethings. Male characters get more detail to their faces.
Its also a problem with ages in anime because they tend to draw 25 year olds like they in their Mid-forties early 50's sometimes lol