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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Oct 25, 2017
570
A delicious dish
Wow, the irony in telling a woman that her opinions are hostile and/or passive aggressive, telling women how they should express themselves, and women fighting with each other on how they express themselves, in a thread about women's opinions.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
I'm just going to say that the tendency of character assassination is one of my biggest problems with people when it comes to anime. Usually this thread is great about keeping it to the art, but it seems some people are more than okay with making insinuations about other posters and I don't think that kind of attitude is conducive to the intent of this thread or the community.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,316
No, that's exactly what you did. The entire thread last night was shameful at how quickly it got hostile at other that poster and others. A number of women felt insecure, uncomfortable, and hurt watching what happened unfold, which is the exact opposite of what should happen! Many of them (multiple of them regular posters in this thread) have sworn off this thread altogether because of last night. You can have a disagreement with the poster on an image without diving into hostility and then keep digging at it even after the damage has been permanently done!

This thread had become more of a community thread over the course of its long existence. If it has become so hostile that women no longer feel comfortable to post here, than maybe we should take a break. At worst, it might be time to close this thread if things can't calm down.
Absolutely nowhere have I said ANYTHING about what women should look like. I've criticized a fictional anime/manga-style character I (among many others, women & men) find to look underage instead of an adult. Just like me criticizing big boobed character designs isn't an attack on real women with big boobs, I wasn't saying anything about how real women should be like with my criticizm on anime characters who look younger than their fictional age.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,534
This thread had become more of a community thread over the course of its long existence. If it has become so hostile that women no longer feel comfortable to post here, than maybe we should take a break. At worst, it might be time to close this thread if things can't calm down.
Wow, the irony in telling a woman that her opinions are hostile and/or passive aggressive, telling women how they should express themselves, and women fighting with each other on how they express themselves, in a thread about women's opinions.
That pretty much sums up what I have to say. When you are pushing women away from posting on this thread something is wrong. And a good point on Machachan's post for really showing how bad this whole "this is how women should look."
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
8,985
Official Staff Communication
Hey everyone, and I do mean everyone, please stop this fighting. The mod-post isn't just an ornament.

To re-iterate: drop the personal attacks, accusations, tone-policing, and meta-commentary. Focus the discussion on art criticism and the character designs themselves. This is what the thread is about.

Thank you.
 
Oct 28, 2017
291
Absolutely, but oddly, there's always an exception people find when women want to criticize something about art, especially when it is about patterns. We always have to shut up.

Of course it's bad to call the art pedo. The piece itself was entirely fine on that level, unsexualized. It wasn't pedo.
At the same time, it was also of a character that looks clearly young and fits a pretty normalized pattern that we can see in most places, to the point that most female characters now exist either as "very young looking" or "sex bombs" or both, but very rarely anything outside these patterns.

Look at the backlash towards She-Ra's design, for example - "looks like a man" was thrown around immediately, despite the character being very clearly not, because the pattern is so ingrained and people only accepting either "very young" or "very sexy" as acceptable molds.

And yes, I would absolutely say that the piece falls *squarely* into that pattern. Intentionally so? Probably not, but that's not exactly changing anything about said pattern. Quite the opposite: That both artist and commissioner didn't even consider that angle says a lot: It's now utterly normalized.



That doesn't make the artist a pedo, much like an artist that just happens to wear high heels a lot giving every character in their art high heels makes them someone that wants women to have issues with our joints. But it is part of the pattern that does, and it should be allowed to actually talk about it as such.
Much like a female artist that is very skinny and draws extremely skinny characters is part of the pattern that keeps female characters solely in that camp, even if they themselves do not wish to promote anorexia.

That it isn't even acceptable to point at the pattern really is classic gamer forum, much like guys overreacting on behalf of women on all involved sides is. And good work, now women have to shut up on all sides...

...and criticism got properly silenced. Don't call such art pedo. All it does is help shut down the actual criticism of the actual pattern. If it is "pedo" or not is entirely besides the point and not any part of the problematic pattern that could be discussed.
Criticism was warranted and I agree with the things you wrote. I feel anime as a medium is in such a terrible shape when it comes to these issues. To the point where I blame the medium itself that people get judgmental fast.

I hope what I wrote was not taken as me defending the state of that industry in general.

EDIT: if required I am happy to remove this. Didn't see the mod post before I sent it.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
5,659
But we have more context now. The artist is a woman who looks younger than her age. She should be able to draw someone like her without getting accused of being a perv or pedo.

On an industry wide scale I agree it's suspect but in this case this doesn't feel warranted to me.



And this too.
I suppose I'm confused as to why real people looking younger than they are is being equated to a drawing that is commissioned, especially in a style that often has girls who look far younger than their "age."

Why does the existence of the former negate criticism of the latter? Is it just because the poster who commissioned it is in this thread? Why does that prevent criticism for a piece of art she didn't draw?

These types of designs are routinely criticized, and for good reason. We had a poster, sabrina, actually bow out of discussion because her criticism of the artist was perceived "hostile." Is that where are are at?

Let me repeat. If you want to draw an adult, draw an adult. Don't draw a child/teen and try to pass them off as an adult.

Edit: Damn, I missed the second mod post. I'll drop it, but keep the post up unless a mod wants me to edit it out which I'm happy to do.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
Let me repeat. If you want to draw an adult, draw an adult. Don't draw a child/teen and try to pass them off as an adult.
If there is something to be learned from the past few pages it's that peoples' perceptions on maturity aren't universal and this is reflected in reality as well as in art.
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,810
As time goes on, I find stuff like this to piss me off more and more. Why is sexualizing minors a thing? There is no reason for it to be a thing.

At least Amy Sorel has a mostly-non-sexualized design, though that bit of exposed skin on her chest gets my side-eye for its placement. Unfortunately it looks like she'll be subject to the same customization options as the rest of the cast, so that's gonna be thing, too.
Yep, and the DLC part pack had the female pirate outfit, which is less of an outfit and more of a mess, and the demon/succubus outfit which leaves pretty much everything but the nipples and genital region exposed.
 
Nov 14, 2017
599
If there is something to be learned from the past few pages it's that peoples' perceptions on maturity aren't universal and this is reflected in reality as well as in art.
There is an Overton window effect that needs to be taken seriously if you believe it is unethical to sexualize children. If the window is pushed further towards normalizing younger looking characters with "acceptable ages" assigned to them, then that affects the perception of what is socially okay to target with adult sexual interests and that's not acceptable. The artistic design itself doesn't necessarily have to be sexualized to contribute to this normalizing effect. Everything feeds the window.

Also, this is a discussion of widespread character design trends, not real people. A character dressed in revealing clothes is different from a real person choosing what to wear. The same applies to real people looking younger (or older) than they actually are. Visual character designs are introductory paragraphs to who and what a character is that needs to be readable to most people. You don't design your character to be an outlier unless that's meant to be a specific feature of that individual character. The problem is the average anime design reads visually as the too young outlier. This can have an effect on the above mentioned Overton window.
 
Mar 21, 2018
2,225
If there is something to be learned from the past few pages it's that peoples' perceptions on maturity aren't universal and this is reflected in reality as well as in art.
You want this to be the lesson, but it's far from the actual lesson.
The real lesson is that when there's harmful trends in a medium, those trends hurt everyone involved. They even hurt these temporarily benefiting from the trend (since their work fits to the trend), because even if their work does, they may not intentionally or willingy subscribe to the reasons of said trend. And yet remain part of it, and will be seen as part of it like any other part. We cannot escape the societal trends around us. We will always remain part of them. There's no escape, never.

The exact same artwork(!) outside of the context of the current infantilized-anime context, would be entirely fine and not even raise any notice whatsoever - as artwork, that piece is entirely fine.

But the context exists, independent of taste and perception. And we see this, from the current anime (the two last seasons had multiple outright pedo anime btw, including TWO DIFFERENT ONES(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) starring actual lesbian pedos(!!!!!!!!!!!!!), adding demonization of queer people to fuel the fetishes of straight guys) to the current games (including the gamer outrages when a big platform holder makes a company tone down the pedoness a slight, tiny bit).

That's the current context we live in. And as we see, it hurts everyone, from women that would like other kinds of characters (because we sure aren't getting that, and get attacked if we ask for other content, and routinely see men screeching about any woman that doesn't fulfil their little girl fantasy - again, see She-Ra, where a slight athletic frame caused a massive outburst among internet men) to women that like drawing such characters (because some dudes attack them harder than they attack dudes).

What'd really solve this is for there to be a much wider variety of female characters. The only thing that really solves this, to be honest. And for dudes to calm down. :P
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
There is an Overton window effect that needs to be taken seriously if you believe it is unethical to sexualize children. If the window is pushed further towards normalizing younger looking characters with "acceptable ages" assigned to them, then that affects the perception of what is socially okay to target with adult sexual interests and that's not acceptable. The artistic design itself doesn't necessarily have to be sexualized to contribute to this normalizing effect. Everything feeds the window.

Also, this is a discussion of widespread character design trends, not real people. A character dressed in revealing clothes is different from a real person choosing what to wear. The same applies to real people looking younger (or older) than they actually are. Visual character designs are introductory paragraphs to who and what a character is that needs to be readable to most people. You don't design your character to be an outlier unless that's meant to be a specific feature of that individual character. The problem is the average anime design reads visually as the too young outlier. This can have an effect on the above mentioned Overton window.
I think it is much more complex than a slippery slope. Anime has a wide range of styles and representations of people, with the more detailed styles usually depicting adults versus young adults more easily. I agree that at some point you have to draw the line where a character's stated age breaks suspension of disbelief. The trouble I see with your argument here is it implies that any design that doesn't strictly fit the assumed stereotypical adult form needs to be justified beyond reasonable doubt - but that can be subjective as we see from the recent pages.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,483
My two cents, the design can be taken as a young adult or teen, but I lean more in the “she looks like a teen” direction. It’s the face that’s throwing people off and it’s contrasting against the rest design.

Also the weird fangs addition in anime/manga will always be strange to me.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
You want this to be the lesson, but it's far from the actual lesson.
The real lesson is that when there's harmful trends in a medium, those trends hurt everyone involved. They even hurt these temporarily benefiting from the trend (since their work fits to the trend), because even if their work does, they may not intentionally or willingy subscribe to the reasons of said trend. And yet remain part of it, and will be seen as part of it like any other part. We cannot escape the societal trends around us. We will always remain part of them. There's no escape, never.

The exact same artwork(!) outside of the context of the current infantilized-anime context, would be entirely fine and not even raise any notice whatsoever - as artwork, that piece is entirely fine.

But the context exists, independent of taste and perception. And we see this, from the current anime (the two last seasons had multiple outright pedo anime btw, including TWO DIFFERENT ONES(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) starring actual lesbian pedos(!!!!!!!!!!!!!), adding demonization of queer people to fuel the fetishes of straight guys) to the current games (including the gamer outrages when a big platform holder makes a company tone down the pedoness a slight, tiny bit).

That's the current context we live in. And as we see, it hurts everyone, from women that would like other kinds of characters (because we sure aren't getting that, and get attacked if we ask for other content, and routinely see men screeching about any woman that doesn't fulfil their little girl fantasy - again, see She-Ra, where a slight athletic frame caused a massive outburst among internet men) to women that like drawing such characters (because some dudes attack them harder than they attack dudes).

What'd really solve this is for there to be a much wider variety of female characters. The only thing that really solves this, to be honest. And for dudes to calm down. :P
That's a good post and I agree. If there were more varied styles we were collectively exposed to in anime and anime styles games then these kinds of arguments wouldn't happen any longer. The Overton window is too far over in one direction. Your post has put Dragonkeeper's into perspective for me so thank you.
 
Mar 18, 2018
3,404
Moving on from drama, in regards of the actual image, I feel that the eyes are what makes it look childish. The rest of the character is arguably a petite woman (presumably what the poster wanted in the first place) but the eyes are a bit too big that it does give it a noticably child-like appearance.

I feel that the image isn't sexualised, so I don't see any real issue with it in a vacuum even if was is meant to be a teen.

But you can (and some posters have) draw associatoons between the artists style and how other anime artists often used similar arstyles in a sexualised manner with minors. That may be conjecture but it's not baseless conjecture.

Certainly, if I'm being honest, at a passing glance I would probably notice the association with loli-type anime art more than I would the image being fine in a vacuum.
 
Nov 14, 2017
599
I think it is much more complex than a slippery slope. Anime has a wide range of styles and representations of people, with the more detailed styles usually depicting adults versus young adults more easily. I agree that at some point you have to draw the line where a character's stated age breaks suspension of disbelief.- but that can be subjective as we see from the recent pages.
I would not characterize the concept of normalization as a mere slippery slope. And this part: "The trouble I see with your argument here is it implies that any design that doesn't strictly fit the assumed stereotypical adult form needs to be justified beyond reasonable doubt" is not part of my statement. The problem is the factoryesque way anime stamps out the same set of character designs all trending in the same direction. It's not that too young looking characters exist, it's that too young looking characters are the standard. You yourself pointed to a counter for this problem when you said "What'd really solve this is for there to be a much wider variety of female characters. "
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,803
It's like... Honoka in DOA series, where she has big bust and ass yet she still looks underage because of her face (literally ripped from an underage character).
Marie Rose isn't underage, nor has anyone else in DoA been from 5 onward (they nearly went with making NiCO younger than her while working on DoA6, though). To clarify, this is going by ages specified by the developer rather than any given person's perception.

Now that I think about it, Dead or Alive is one of the only fighting game series to come to mind where the ages of characters are still given (Tekken doesn't bother, nor does Street Fighter, The King of Fighters stopped doing it by XI, and Soul Calibur didn't include any with VI all while rebooting that franchise's continuity).
 
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Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,595
I would not characterize the concept of normalization as a mere slippery slope. And this part: "The trouble I see with your argument here is it implies that any design that doesn't strictly fit the assumed stereotypical adult form needs to be justified beyond reasonable doubt" is not part of my statement. The problem is the factoryesque way anime stamps out the same set of character designs all trending in the same direction. It's not that too young looking characters exist, it's that too young looking characters are the standard. You yourself pointed to a counter for this problem when you said "What'd really solve this is for there to be a much wider variety of female characters. "
Yeah I see your point now. Part of the problem is also the focus on high school or youthfulness as the best period of life that tends to be portrayed in anime, even though the content is aimed at adults. It's such that we get this strange situation where anyone older than 25 is considered old and low to high teens is the most competent and active age range.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,434
You want this to be the lesson, but it's far from the actual lesson.
The real lesson is that when there's harmful trends in a medium, those trends hurt everyone involved. They even hurt these temporarily benefiting from the trend (since their work fits to the trend), because even if their work does, they may not intentionally or willingy subscribe to the reasons of said trend. And yet remain part of it, and will be seen as part of it like any other part. We cannot escape the societal trends around us. We will always remain part of them. There's no escape, never.

The exact same artwork(!) outside of the context of the current infantilized-anime context, would be entirely fine and not even raise any notice whatsoever - as artwork, that piece is entirely fine.

But the context exists, independent of taste and perception. And we see this, from the current anime (the two last seasons had multiple outright pedo anime btw, including TWO DIFFERENT ONES(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) starring actual lesbian pedos(!!!!!!!!!!!!!), adding demonization of queer people to fuel the fetishes of straight guys) to the current games (including the gamer outrages when a big platform holder makes a company tone down the pedoness a slight, tiny bit).

That's the current context we live in. And as we see, it hurts everyone, from women that would like other kinds of characters (because we sure aren't getting that, and get attacked if we ask for other content, and routinely see men screeching about any woman that doesn't fulfil their little girl fantasy - again, see She-Ra, where a slight athletic frame caused a massive outburst among internet men) to women that like drawing such characters (because some dudes attack them harder than they attack dudes).

What'd really solve this is for there to be a much wider variety of female characters. The only thing that really solves this, to be honest. And for dudes to calm down. :P
I think that's basically a good explanation, yeah.

I haven't watched anime much in a long long time, but one of the reasons for that is this trend.

It's really weird considering back when I was younger, women in anime probably had the opposite problem lol. Like I can't be the only one who thinks the Sailor Moon characters probably look like they should be in University or something over high school. Ironically despite the creator being a Pedo even Rurouni Kenshin manages to portray it's women characters in a much older light than current day anime.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,292
That is how I feel right now.

The reason I shared this here was because I use this character to represent me, and I was really satisfied with how it came out that I thought to share it here thinking others would enjoy it.

I did not expect for people to call anime art-style for pedos, nor did I expect people to talk about pidgeon toes (by the way it was originally shoes so I had them edit the finish drawing to be sandals so it wasn't my fault anyway), or even refer to fangs as for lolicons or something. I sent a male character for reference to the design of the teeth as my character is suppose to be brash and partially a demon. Certainly not intended to be what people are claiming here.
I can only apologise for the responses here, I imagine it's a knee jerk reaction because an awful lot of trolls come in here with disingenuous posts all the time and after a while it does get tiresome as you can imagine. I actually thought you were at first too ;^^ I'm more a lurker as I can't keep up in this thread so just read the whole thing go downhill XD

Regarding your commissioned piece, the way she is dressed is fine, nothing wrong with the trousers or tank top design especially as you say, in the heat etc. As others have said though she doesn't really look like an adult, definitely more like a teenager proportionally and the pigeon toe stance is seen as a cute thing in anime that makes her seem young too. If she were a bit taller and stood more naturally I think it would be a pretty solid design.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,277
Marie Rose isn't underage, nor has anyone else in DoA been from 5 onward (they nearly went with making NiCO younger than her while working on DoA6 though). To clarify, this is going by ages specified by the developer rather than any given person's perception.
I know it's not her age as per devs :P but I went with intent, because there's no way they didn't design her as a 18years old. She's 18 the same way Kasumi and Ayane were "forced" to be 18 after some years (isn't her being swedish even a pun about it?).
 
Oct 22, 2018
4,005
the two last seasons had multiple outright pedo anime btw, including TWO DIFFERENT ONES(!!!!!!!!!!!!!) starring actual lesbian pedos(!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Jesus. I know there was the one about the live-in maid who was former military or whatever, but there was a second one?
 
Oct 31, 2017
1,810
Jesus. I know there was the one about the live-in maid who was former military or whatever, but there was a second one?
I think this one:
Watashi ni Tenshi ga Maiorita!
The four-panel comedy manga's story centers on Miyako Hoshino, a shy college student and otaku. Miyako's younger sister Hinata, who is a fifth grader, has a classmate and friend named Hana. When they meet, Miyako falls for Hana at first sight.
 
User warned: ignoring staff posts, derailing with meta-commentary over a series of posts
Alright, catching on with the last few pages.

Concerning the character everybody is talking about, sure it looks young. But again, it's an anime character playing on some of the same anime tropes that were discussed at length here. Does it have issues? Maybe. Is it worth discussing? Absolutely! But I feel people were unfortunately missing the whole context under which it was posted.

Honestly, I feel super bad for Kokonoe. She put herself out here, posted a design she was obviously super proud of, and people reacted with the same hostility as if it was a lolicon character from a cheap gacha game they've just seen pop up on social media. Or like she was one of those boner culture trolls.

None of that was warranted. If I was her, I would have left here running to never come back. There are ways to discuss a design, especially if it's the design of a member posting it in good faith, without needlessly and aggressively demolishing it. On this site, and especially here in this thread, I think we demonstrated we are capable of emotional intelligence and empathy. Let's not forget it. We are better than that.

I'm sorry if this post offends some people, but I had to say this.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
5,803
I know it's not her age as per devs :P but I went with intent, because there's no way they didn't design her as a 18years old. She's 18 the same way Kasumi and Ayane were "forced" to be 18 after some years (isn't her being swedish even a pun about it?).
17 --> 19 for Kasumi and 16 --> 18 for Ayane (after years of "N/A" answers for their ages in Western releases). Making her Swedish when they introduced her in 5:U is believed to be a jab at Sweden for denying DoA: Dimensions (3DS game) certification, as that was before DoA5's aging up the whole cast by two years.
 
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Mar 21, 2018
2,225
I'm sorry if this post offends some people, but I had to say this.
I would agree - it's part why I even posted again. Some reaction to it was ott.

In parts, that is. I think, as a design, Kokonoe's character is totally fine. I'd like the design. I could see myself use that as the design for a roleplay character myself - if this was a character in an anime, I'd even applaud it.

I'd just have called it the design for a teenage character. But that's not an inherent problem.


It sure would make me second guess posting designs of mine (what'd people say about queer aspects, for example?).

Horrible garbage. That this is a frigging GENRE now is facepalm inducing, and that's me being VERY kind.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,196
Well, this thread is really good at ignoring mod warnings as everyone wants to give their 2 cents (I think this is the third warning that is ignored)...

Team Rocket to me always looked like adults. I was like WTF they are smoking when it was revealed they were 12.
 
Oct 22, 2018
4,005
Oh, I didn't realize that got an anime. I've never checked out the manga either because given the premise I kinda hate it.
It's frustrating, because there are a lot of authors I like that can do thoughtful stories that eventually wind up doing crappy stuff like that. There are way too many stories that try to pass off student-teacher romances as normal. Still, there are significant, obvious differences between a story that is fundamentally about, say, a queer girl recognizing the feelings she has, and a story about some teacher trying to get her rocks off or whatever; I think these stories have ways to be interesting, but can't be done as pat romance stories or as gag series without tacitly supporting some really toxic attitudes. No points for guessing which kind of stories are actually written by actual queer women, for the record (both the thoughtful and the fetish-y kind, but the thoughtful ones are almost exclusively the purview of queer women).
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,370
Does anyone have any thoughts about Dragon Pilot: Hisone & Masotan? I watched a couple of episodes and am really unsure about watching any more of it. On the one hand I'm totally down for the general premise, but the very second episode has a whole scene where a character shows up out of nowhere without introducing himself to get the main character's measurements for a flight suit by just fucking groping her without her consent (and it goes out of its way to show how uncomfortable she is), and then he's framed as an eccentric genius afterwards, and then another scene where a side character is just nakedly misogynistic.

Like, is this show secretly about workplace sexism, plus dragons? Is it worth watching more of it?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,862
I would agree - it's part why I even posted again. Some reaction to it was ott.

In parts, that is. I think, as a design, Kokonoe's character is totally fine. I'd like the design. I could see myself use that as the design for a roleplay character myself - if this was a character in an anime, I'd even applaud it.

I'd just have called it the design for a teenage character. But that's not an inherent problem.


It sure would make me second guess posting designs of mine (what'd people say about queer aspects, for example?).
Personally, I agree with most points raised by posters about the drawing previously, just not with the hostility used to convey them. This is a feminist thread in the end, and the critique at the core just mirrored the points we discuss here day in day out. Inexcusable hostility aside though, they still didn't seem to really agree with our reading of the design, so to me this marks a clear difference in mentality. Some people here, myself included, have very extreme views about these issues, and not everyone will share the same opinions, man or woman. So Kokonoe simply doesn't strike me as an individual all that interested in the problems we discuss here. On hindsight, asking for feedback in this thread never seemed like it would give her the responses she had perhaps hoped for. This isn't a shortcoming of her as a person, just something that I think ought to be acknowledged.
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
1,660
Does anyone have any thoughts about Dragon Pilot: Hisone & Masotan? I watched a couple of episodes and am really unsure about watching any more of it. On the one hand I'm totally down for the general premise, but the very second episode has a whole scene where a character shows up out of nowhere without introducing himself to get the main character's measurements for a flight suit by just fucking groping her without her consent (and it goes out of its way to show how uncomfortable she is), and then he's framed as an eccentric genius afterwards, and then another scene where a side character is just nakedly misogynistic.

Like, is this show secretly about workplace sexism, plus dragons? Is it worth watching more of it?
I only watched the first episode so I can't really help out, but I too was disappointed to hear from a friend that it got gross in the second episode. She stopped there so I don't know if it stays that way.
 
Oct 22, 2018
4,005
Remember when official sources claimed these jokers were twelve years old?
On the one hand, I, as a functioning adult, feel they absolutely do not pass the duck test for 12-year-olds. They do not look like 12-year-olds, they do not act like 12-year-olds, and they certainly don't quack like 12-year-olds fit into society the way that a 12-year-old would. James has an arranged marriage in the Kanto series? And he's supposed to be 12? Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, the actual target audience for this is kids who are younger than 12, surely? And in that sense I can almost see that there's a joke here that they are supposed to represent, like, the impression of someone that age for a kid who's like 6-8. Remembering back to when I was that age, I can sort of understand that. As an adult though, obviously it's a pretty silly thing to say.
 
Oct 26, 2017
7,277
17 --> 19 for Kasumi and 16 --> 18 for Ayane (after years of "N/A" answers for their ages in Western releases). Making her Swedish is believed to be a jab at Sweden for denying DoA: Dimensions (3DS game) certification, as that was before DoA5's aging up by two years.
Yeah that's what I meant, I assume they aged them up after the DOA:D fiasco, and that's why they're not gonna risk having a under 18 or N/A aged character (because we all know what N/A means lol).

Tbh I don't think it's necessary bad to have underaged characters per, superheroes (like Spiderman) manages to do it just fine. But it's impossible to do it with the current state of fighting games (not only DOA but in general), where they ramp up the fanservice to sell outfits, and the alternative are gory fest that aren't necessary better so...
 
Personally, I agree with most points raised by posters about the drawing previously, just not with the hostility used to convey them. This is a feminist thread in the end, and the critique at the core just mirrored the points we discuss here day in day out. Inexcusable hostility aside though, they still didn't seem to really agree with our reading of the design, so to me this marks a clear difference in mentality. Some people here, myself included, have very extreme views about these issues, and not everyone will share the same opinions, man or woman. So Kokonoe simply doesn't strike me as an individual all that interested in the problems we discuss here. On hindsight, asking for feedback in this thread never seemed like it would give her the responses she had perhaps hoped for. This isn't a shortcoming of her as a person, just something that I think ought to be acknowledged.
I think the bulk of the problem is how those points were communicated. Borderline calling her a pedo is not a way to have an intelligent conversation, or having any kind of ideas communicated properly. Again, especially in the context of an original design submission the poster is emotionally attached to. Let's not forget she said multiple times this character is meant to represent her personally.

There is no reason to think Kokonoe is not sensible enough to know where she was submitting her design for feedback. This thread is (usually) indeed a great feminist thread! And sure, strong and rigid opinions are common. It's ok. But having strong opinions doesn't mean having to forgo basic respect.

Like I've seen happen here in the past, the same points that were raised by posters could have been expressed in ways aimed at promoting some kind of discussion instead of shutting it down. The opinions most of us share in this thread serve nothing if we're only repeating them to ourselves ad infinitum. From time to time, it's good to exchange with a person that is not completely familiar with those views. Especially when, for once, that person is not a troll and wants to exchange with people in this thread in good faith.

Punishing someone who wants to have an honest discussion just because she doesn't appear to be the exact same as everybody else in here is, I hope, not what this community represents.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,862
I think the bulk of the problem is how those points were communicated. Borderline calling her a pedo is not a way to have an intelligent conversation, or having any kind of ideas communicated properly. Again, especially in the context of an original design submission the poster is emotionally attached to. Let's not forget she said multiple times this character is meant to represent her personally.

There is no reason to think Kokonoe is not sensible enough to know where she was submitting her design for feedback. This thread is (usually) indeed a great feminist thread! And sure, strong and rigid opinions are common. It's ok. But having strong opinions doesn't mean having to forgo basic respect.

Like I've seen happen here in the past, the same points that were raised by posters could have been expressed in ways aimed at promoting some kind of discussion instead of shutting it down. The opinions most of us share in this thread serve nothing if we're only repeating them to ourselves ad infinitum. From time to time, it's good to exchange with a person that is not completely familiar with those views. Especially when, for once, that person is not a troll and wants to exchange with people in this thread in good faith.

Punishing someone who wants to have an honest discussion just because she doesn't appear to be the exact same as everybody else in here is, I hope, not what this community represents.
Oh no, I totally agree. The way opinions were expressed killed any chance of there being a productive and healthy discussion from the get-go. Even as a man, this thread is very dear to me as it has managed to broaden my horizons many times, so I hope everyone can use this incident as a learning experience in keeping a cool head even when faced with what may look like opposition on first glance. I have talked to a few people, and have been told a lot of women won't ever return to this thread because the hurt done, and that is a terrifying prospect to me. Without women sharing their views, this thread becomes useless.

Despite being fairly active here, I think I need to revaluate my contributions before I make them, and make sure I don't force my own feminist opinion on another woman. So I hope this thread can once again become a place where all women feel save and able to share their own point of view, so that men like me can learn from their voices.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,933
On the one hand, I, as a functioning adult, feel they absolutely do not pass the duck test for 12-year-olds. They do not look like 12-year-olds, they do not act like 12-year-olds, and they certainly don't quack like 12-year-olds fit into society the way that a 12-year-old would. James has an arranged marriage in the Kanto series? And he's supposed to be 12? Yeah, sure.

On the other hand, the actual target audience for this is kids who are younger than 12, surely? And in that sense I can almost see that there's a joke here that they are supposed to represent, like, the impression of someone that age for a kid who's like 6-8. Remembering back to when I was that age, I can sort of understand that. As an adult though, obviously it's a pretty silly thing to say.
I think you're on to something there. If you have, say, a decorated and world weary soldier you want to make appeal to a 12-18 demographic, making him just old enough to legally drink in America is a way to keep him within the realm of relatability, even if it doesn't actually make any sense. He can be cool and edgy for the kids, but you can still use him work with "adult" themes in your story and characterization. You give the impression this character is more mature and experienced than one would logically assume from just his age.