I actually completely forgot it was in that movie as well. Probably is a common trope in a ton of media and just don't remember any of it.
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
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Been meaning to get around to this. The contrast in the designs is dependent on the artist. For what folks like in here it would seem to be more of Kosuke Fujishimas designs (Tales of Phantasia/Symphonia/Abyss/Vesperia. Jude from Xillia) His designs are more simple. Meanwhile Inomata Mutsumi (Tales of Destiny/Eternia/Destiny 2/Rebirth/Hearts/Innocence/Millia In Xillia/Velvet in Berseria) tends to be the more critiqued one here. Her designs are on the shoujo side, but also more overdesigned too. More lace/floral and intricate designs. Meanwhile, Fujishima is the shounen style. Starting with Xillia was when they finally collobarated together. It's clear as night and day when you compare them next to each other.
Oh and bonus, the third tales character designer to add to the crew is Daigo Okumura, who probably has the most questionable designs. There's also a 4th character designer but I don't remember him off the top of my head.
Oh Utena, you coudl write entire thesis about gender and role from that show. An absolute classic.
I kinda like the female protags outfit. Interesting that the sword came from her, even though it looks like she's a gunslinger type character. I also appreciate that she seems to be a more serious character.
I normally don't mind the 'girly' outfits like the one from the new Tales game. I actually quite like them for the most part. It's just annoying when they are depicted like objects (a sword coming out of her body, or turning into cars with other games etc), treated like trash in the story and having inappropriate fanservice for no reason.
The design being girly or feminine shouldn't be looked at as something negative. I know there are many who want more tough looking female characters or female characters outside the norm. This is something we can all agree on for more diversity.
The design being girly or feminine shouldn't be looked at as something negative. I know there are many who want more tough looking female characters or female characters outside the norm. This is something we can all agree on for more diversity.
But do Tales game treat their female cast like trash? They tend to do a pretty good job as far as I know.
Personally, I also rolled my eyes at the predictable "cool guy with sword, attractive woman with ranged weapon" cliche.
I'd like to know what the female regulars of this thread think about the 'Nakamura is cute' situation. Female regulars please.
I was speaking more broadly and not necessarily talking about Tales games when I was summing up my dislike of what games do wrong.
As far as female characters being treated like trash in Tales games. These are the games I've played:
Tales of Phantasia
Tales of Tempest
Tales of Innocence
Tales of Hearts
Tales of the World
Tales of Symphonia (roughly 10 hours)
Most of the mentioned games have been played years ago. My memory is honestly hazy but I don't remember anything offensively bad with most of them. Though Colette seemed annoying early in the game (Tales of Symphonia).
Tales of Hearts is the most recent game I've completed. In terms of trash story: maybe the main female character (Kohaku) for acting like a brat at the beginning? Or being damseld and the need to protect her by the main male character? But she has her strong moments and isn't a one note character. She had her reasons early in the game and in the second half she is depicted as very competent.
Tales games are usually pretty cliche and there are characters who must fill a specific role such as the one mentioned above. Or the 'boob' lady being Innes in Tales of Hearts. Innes is depicted as an incredibly strong woman (in terms of physical strength) and being smarter than many characters though. Unfortunately there are still boob jokes in the game -_-
While it is incredibly annoying that these roles need to come back, I feel they did a fairly good job to flesh out the characters and there are many characters and NPCs who are varied. Tales of games are doing ok based on the ones I played.
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My twitter feed got filled with creepy shit real fast.
It was a meme that was allowed to be cute for like...5 minutes.
Reminds me a lot of Battle
Loving the Vixen (Farrow?) She looks awesome.Yo, I'd just like to give a big shout out to Selma and Farrow from Mutant Year Zero: Road to Eden for being fucking cool playable female characters.
I'm really interested in this game though I haven't got round to even buying it yet. Too many games etc.
I'm not a regular, first time making a contribution here, but I find it creepy and the infantilization is bad.
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I haven't really followed the situation. This is the first time I read about it.
So fan art is made of a female developer and she is tweeting said fan art? On one hand, it's creepy to have fan art in the first place but it appears that she likes it? Otherwise she wouldn't tweet about them. If she likes it, then that's what matters. I just hope it doesn't get out of hand.
It is odd though. Why make fan art of a developer?
Legit thought she was cute during the presentation. Now the drawings of her, I personally have no issue, but I do know that these things can go from nice to creepy in an instant. Like the images in the op are harmless, but i can only guess how far it's been taken.
It's because of her appearance on stage during the conference. Legit, the first word that came to mind was man she's cute. Not so much on her appearance, but her mannerisms.
I mean, have you seen the internet?
People will make fanart out of anything
There's nothing wrong with the fan art she's retweeted (Aside from that cat ears/tail image, which is weird) and there's nothing wrong with fan art of her in general, but people have already taken it in the direction you'd expect and it's disheartening that so many male posters are quick to jump to "you hate fun/you're too woke/you're being a white knight" if people aren't fans of how odd gamers tend to be when female devs show up.
A woman came out and used eccentric gestures and people latched on to it to make her a meme.
Then the internet twisted it into a infantalism celebration and a fetishistic mess.
It's cool that she liked the more popular nice ones, but she's gonna have a rough few weeks on social media once the sane people calm down and the only ones left are the people who want to get off to this.
Even though she was one of the glimmering moments of e3 on a whole thus far, the bad surrounding this is going to outweigh the good. Women in this industry can't win.
Thanks for all the input. Age of Wonders: Planetfall debuted on the PC Show just now, and one of the devs was animated just like Nakamura. Are people going to comment on how cute he was acting too, or does he happen to miss some of the defining features male gamers tend to like?
Yeah, the sexualization of...anything in gaming, even if it involves real people, is honestly gross.
Ok i'm gonna need you to recontextualize that statement, what are you saying here. You mean in games, or the people involved with video games.
To be fair, people do make memes of people being animated. Like the Peggle 2 guy. Though there probably won't be as much...fanart in comparison. There might be some though. We got some of Keanu Reaves after all.
Both. People have a tendency to sexualize real people yes. Even game developers.
Sure, but he is Keanu Reeves. Dude is a an actor and celebrity. He is leagues above a developer on stage.
That's what I feel to. We've seen this enough times to know that this path leads to one place and it ain't pretty.
Not going to lie I was hoping you were going to say it was because he is immortal and won't appear on cameras :P
He properly means both. As soon as a female developer looks attractive, the male population goes wild and this can backfire hard for the developer.
I was confused. When I said " In video games " I meant like a video game character.
The drawing of weird sexualized pictures of real people is weird I do agree with that. And that is something that pops up in the youtube space alot and makes people wild uncomfortable.
TBF, the Keanu you see on camera is just a CGI reconstruction.
I see what you mean now.
I'm pretty sheltered on the internet lately. I remember Jade Raymond being worshipped. I remember mostly fan art threads for games and not devs on Era.
Oh my gosh. She's so cute :3 She did the whole Japanese women are cute thing. Her mannerism is cute but she looked cool too. I can see why lots of fan art was made.
I can only hope it won't turn this bad. For her sake.
This whole Ikumi Nakamura worship is beyond creepy. What is wrong with gamers?! It's a reaction like if a whole bunch of people went out of their basement and saw an enthusiastic woman for the first time. What the hell? And now it's all over the internet because "meme culture". It really disgusts me.
This seems relevant
What's worse is that all those "sexy" redesigns are almost all the same. The same shape with really the only way you can tell it's supposed to be the same character is at best a single article of clothing.
It's true.
I'd say your description basically describes most cosplay as well, but maybe that comment is meant for a different discussion :P
Asian F here, not a regular but a lurker.
I'm not a fan of gaming outlets highlighting her as some sort of ~uwu so wholesome, must protect~ figure. It's condescending at best, racist at worst.
She is obviously very charming and it's fine to enjoy her stage presence and enthusiasm. But some have been incredibly creepy and infantilizing. People saying "waifu," "I want to marry her," "Japanese women are best women" skeeze me the f out.
Of course, anyone pointing this out is getting attacked by the usual suspects on Twitter.
They sure do...
Thanks for your perspective! And yeah, reading the Twitter thread you posted really is painful...
While there is a section of the game playing base that's garunteed to make everything weird. This feels like a bit of an overeaction, people meme presenters.
My body is ready. Extreme . Riiidge racer and the parody kaz account. If shit gets really weird we can have a conversation about it. But just memeing a lady doing weird stuff on stage is... fine.
Not sure if this is directly related to this thread but it sure has been something reading the Nintendo Direct thread the past few days and seeing all the abuse hurled toward Sabi (a female leaker), calling her a c*nt among other things.
I'm just an avid lurker in this thread. It's grating seeing a professional woman in a male-dominated industry represented in such a childlike manner. It really is emblematic of how women (particularly Asian woman) are viewed in the gaming industry but any attempt at that discussion results in women being shouted down by dozens of men who sound eerily like the "SJWs ruin everything" crowd they claim to despise. I absolutely hate how saying you disagree with something or find it distasteful is translated into anger or outrage or a frothing overreaction. Why can't we be mildly annoyed? Anyway, I'm glad Ms. Nakamura is handling the attention well and I hope she's not exposed to the worst of it.
Are we due for another "why don't women participate in the gaming community more?" thread soon? I like those. Irony is my favorite.
I'm just an avid lurker in this thread. It's grating seeing a professional woman in a male-dominated industry represented in such a childlike manner. It really is emblematic of how women (particularly Asian woman) are viewed in the gaming industry but any attempt at that discussion results in women being shouted down by dozens of men who sound eerily like the "SJWs ruin everything" crowd they claim to despise. I absolutely hate how saying you disagree with something or find it distasteful is translated into anger or outrage or a frothing overreaction. Why can't we be mildly annoyed? Anyway, I'm glad Ms. Nakamura is handling the attention well and I hope she's not exposed to the worst of it.
Are we due for another "why don't women participate in the gaming community more?" thread soon? I like those. Irony is my favorite.
Thank you. It's really nice to have an Asian woman chime in, this being about ethnicity as much as it is sex if not more.
I haven't been keeping up, but had a feeling that was going to happen as soon as I read she is a woman a couple of days ago. Absolutely abhorrent, but sadly hardly surprising.
That was a thing? Must have been a doozy...
So, we're all anticipating the reveal of FF7's Tifa in the remake, and there were already discussions on whether her original depiction should be carried over to the new game aka should Nu-Tifa have huge knockers?
Well, one loud component of this was that she needs her huge tits to be a front and center part of her character to be authentic to the original design. It's not about wanting her to be sexually objectified, it's merely being respectful to the source material that this remake is remaking. And okay, fine. But then I have a question: What about Jessie?
Jessie is a minor character who appeared in the first part of FF7 as part of team avalanche. The first image is her concept art (obviously), the second image is her model how she appears in game, and the third image is a high resolution version of her model that appears in a cutscene (upper body only).
Now here is her remake model
Again, concept art and ingame model
The design discrepancy is so obvious that I honestly don't feel that it needs to even be pointed out. They didn't just take Jessie's model and transition her into the graphical art style of FF7, they sexualized her armor. What was once a basic and standard chest plate is now a titty plate. What she wore before was very obviously armor designed to protect her upper body, which was visually communicated that she was a fighter. It also had a bit of a breast plate going on, but it was so subtle and barely there that it didn't really matter. And now the remake went "SHE'S A WOMAN, WHICH MEANS SHE HAS TITTIES, MAKE SURE THE PLAYER NOTICES HER TITTIES".
But this thread has long marinated in sexualized designs, so that in itself is barely worth mentioning aside from archival purposes. Just catalog her as "female character #9566 that a game company has sexualized where she didn't need to be". But the fact that this is happened in FF7, where the yet unrevealed Tifa is going to make her appearance and supposedly purist fans are saying she needs to have large breasts because it's true to the source material...what have they to say on Jessie? Is this remade Jessie true the source material? If not, and this is all about being true to the original game, then shouldn't there be atleast a minor outcry for Jessie's sexualization where she wasn't in the original?
It's actually rare we have a pure 1:1 comparison, but FF7 brings us a rare example save for the fact that Jessie is a relatively minor character to Tifa, but not minor enough that people haven't iconified her along with Biggs and Wedge. She's not being remade in a manner true to the source material here. If this is about purism, where is the response to Jessie then?
Well, one loud component of this was that she needs her huge tits to be a front and center part of her character to be authentic to the original design. It's not about wanting her to be sexually objectified, it's merely being respectful to the source material that this remake is remaking. And okay, fine. But then I have a question: What about Jessie?
Jessie is a minor character who appeared in the first part of FF7 as part of team avalanche. The first image is her concept art (obviously), the second image is her model how she appears in game, and the third image is a high resolution version of her model that appears in a cutscene (upper body only).
Now here is her remake model
Again, concept art and ingame model
The design discrepancy is so obvious that I honestly don't feel that it needs to even be pointed out. They didn't just take Jessie's model and transition her into the graphical art style of FF7, they sexualized her armor. What was once a basic and standard chest plate is now a titty plate. What she wore before was very obviously armor designed to protect her upper body, which was visually communicated that she was a fighter. It also had a bit of a breast plate going on, but it was so subtle and barely there that it didn't really matter. And now the remake went "SHE'S A WOMAN, WHICH MEANS SHE HAS TITTIES, MAKE SURE THE PLAYER NOTICES HER TITTIES".
But this thread has long marinated in sexualized designs, so that in itself is barely worth mentioning aside from archival purposes. Just catalog her as "female character #9566 that a game company has sexualized where she didn't need to be". But the fact that this is happened in FF7, where the yet unrevealed Tifa is going to make her appearance and supposedly purist fans are saying she needs to have large breasts because it's true to the source material...what have they to say on Jessie? Is this remade Jessie true the source material? If not, and this is all about being true to the original game, then shouldn't there be atleast a minor outcry for Jessie's sexualization where she wasn't in the original?
It's actually rare we have a pure 1:1 comparison, but FF7 brings us a rare example save for the fact that Jessie is a relatively minor character to Tifa, but not minor enough that people haven't iconified her along with Biggs and Wedge. She's not being remade in a manner true to the source material here. If this is about purism, where is the response to Jessie then?
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I second that sentiment thanks donut
Especially when her decades standing mentor Shinji Mikami has been not only fighting to give her a chance to be in a full directing position but give her a chance to make her dream game but investors kept grinding their feet , even more eggregious when the first time she takes full a directing position it's to actually make the game she's been wanting to make since she entered the industry ...
(even without those factors it's already appaling but factor those in and it makes it even worse )
I find the situation disappointing but unsurprising. Yes, she's a fairly attractive woman but she's also a talented artist and hasn't gotten the recognition she deserves for way too long. Now she is the creative lead/director/whatever the fuck you want to call it for a big budget game and her appearance and personality is garnering more attention than her talent.
I remember that she was originally going to be the lead for The Evil Within but either she stepped down, it was a misreporting, and/or Shinji Mikami and Bethesda didn't think she was ready and removed her.
Purism in design only matters when it comes the reduction of a female characters sexualized design.
There really isn't an outrage for Jessie nor the redesigns of the male characters shown so far, especially if you compare it to the concern these people having over Tifa's reveal. Even Sephiroth got a new design if you look closely.
So, we're all anticipating the reveal of FF7's Tifa in the remake, and there were already discussions on whether her original depiction should be carried over to the new game aka should Nu-Tifa have huge knockers?
Well, one loud component of this was that she needs her huge tits to be a front and center part of her character to be authentic to the original design. It's not about wanting her to be sexually objectified, it's merely being respectful to the source material that this remake is remaking. And okay, fine. But then I have a question: What about Jessie?
Jessie is a minor character who appeared in the first part of FF7 as part of team avalanche. The first image is her concept art (obviously), the second image is her model how she appears in game, and the third image is a high resolution version of her model that appears in a cutscene (upper body only).
Now here is her remake model
Again, concept art and ingame model
The design discrepancy is so obvious that I honestly don't feel that it needs to even be pointed out. They didn't just take Jessie's model and transition her into the graphical art style of FF7, they sexualized her armor. What was once a basic and standard chest plate is now a titty plate. What she wore before was very obviously armor designed to protect her upper body, which was visually communicated that she was a fighter. It also had a bit of a breast plate going on, but it was so subtle and barely there that it didn't really matter. And now the remake went "SHE'S A WOMAN, WHICH MEANS SHE HAS TITTIES, MAKE SURE THE PLAYER NOTICES HER TITTIES".
But this thread has long marinated in sexualized designs, so that in itself is barely worth mentioning aside from archival purposes. Just catalog her as "female character #9566 that a game company has sexualized where she didn't need to be". But the fact that this is happened in FF7, where the yet unrevealed Tifa is going to make her appearance and supposedly purist fans are saying she needs to have large breasts because it's true to the source material...what have they to say on Jessie? Is this remade Jessie true the source material? If not, and this is all about being true to the original game, then shouldn't there be atleast a minor outcry for Jessie's sexualization where she wasn't in the original?
It's actually rare we have a pure 1:1 comparison, but FF7 brings us a rare example save for the fact that Jessie is a relatively minor character to Tifa, but not minor enough that people haven't iconified her along with Biggs and Wedge. She's not being remade in a manner true to the source material here. If this is about purism, where is the response to Jessie then?
Okay so , we already have a basic idea of what Tifa is gonna look like. She has been in other media besides her original appearance. So don't expect her boob monster version. I won't lie and say that I'm not curious at all of the minor changes. Like I have to admit it's weird that we have seen the other mains, except for Tifa.
As for Jessie, it's pretty understandable why you don't see her with breast plates in the original is because of the game she is in. She is an extremely minor character and in an early ps1 title. You aren't gonna see that much detail on character that legit dies in like the first 30 min. As for the fact that she's in a breast plate is automatically seen as a negative, I don't personally agree with that. Seems a bit too black and white for taste. And in this case, I think she looks perfectly fine.
So, we're all anticipating the reveal of FF7's Tifa in the remake, and there were already discussions on whether her original depiction should be carried over to the new game aka should Nu-Tifa have huge knockers?
Well, one loud component of this was that she needs her huge tits to be a front and center part of her character to be authentic to the original design. It's not about wanting her to be sexually objectified, it's merely being respectful to the source material that this remake is remaking. And okay, fine. But then I have a question: What about Jessie?
Jessie is a minor character who appeared in the first part of FF7 as part of team avalanche. The first image is her concept art (obviously), the second image is her model how she appears in game, and the third image is a high resolution version of her model that appears in a cutscene (upper body only).
Now here is her remake model
Again, concept art and ingame model
The design discrepancy is so obvious that I honestly don't feel that it needs to even be pointed out. They didn't just take Jessie's model and transition her into the graphical art style of FF7, they sexualized her armor. What was once a basic and standard chest plate is now a titty plate. What she wore before was very obviously armor designed to protect her upper body, which was visually communicated that she was a fighter. It also had a bit of a breast plate going on, but it was so subtle and barely there that it didn't really matter. And now the remake went "SHE'S A WOMAN, WHICH MEANS SHE HAS TITTIES, MAKE SURE THE PLAYER NOTICES HER TITTIES".
But this thread has long marinated in sexualized designs, so that in itself is barely worth mentioning aside from archival purposes. Just catalog her as "female character #9566 that a game company has sexualized where she didn't need to be". But the fact that this is happened in FF7, where the yet unrevealed Tifa is going to make her appearance and supposedly purist fans are saying she needs to have large breasts because it's true to the source material...what have they to say on Jessie? Is this remade Jessie true the source material? If not, and this is all about being true to the original game, then shouldn't there be atleast a minor outcry for Jessie's sexualization where she wasn't in the original?
It's actually rare we have a pure 1:1 comparison, but FF7 brings us a rare example save for the fact that Jessie is a relatively minor character to Tifa, but not minor enough that people haven't iconified her along with Biggs and Wedge. She's not being remade in a manner true to the source material here. If this is about purism, where is the response to Jessie then?
That Roberto Ferrari guy is working on the designs right? I remember that was someone in the previous thread who tried arguing that he worked at Tatsunoko in the 90s so they're all like "JUST LIKE AMANO" when 90s Tatsunoko went full horndog back then, really upping the nudity and sexualization of their characters, a lot of who were Amano designed.
It's a disappointment to be sure, I wouldn't mind the boob plate so much if it weren't for total midriff exposure.
On the same subject I'm wondering what they'll do if they reveal Erdrick for Smash how they'll handle the female version. If they'll go with the "raised as a man" SNES design or the "there, she's CLEARLY female" GBC design.
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