Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Pssst if you hold dear the integrity of your breastbone you may not want to be wearing that chest plate while facing my fellow female fencers during club hours I'm just saying ...

In other words that design is cool looking but it's still the artist trying to bake his cake and fuck it too ... It's still trying to highlight her boobs just in a non boobplate way , but just by surrounding the boobline with the chest plate . So okay the designer avoided the structural integrity criticism ... by throwing Him/hersefl in the "do you want your kinghts to all drown in their own blood at the first claymore bash ? What the fuck are you doing rib cages and breast bones will be bursting left and right on the battlefield with that nonesne!!!!" criticism pit here ...
I'm gonna go with, the person who drew this isn't going for design accuracy and instead what looks visually pleasing.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
I'd unironically like to live in a world where TheSyldat could become an advisor on design accuracy for artists working on armor and martial art designs.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I'd unironically like to live in a world where TheSyldat could become an advisor on design accuracy for artists working on armor and martial art designs.
Nah I'd be unsufferably nitpicky . Again I do practice multiple martial arts , and I am an armor / weapons / martial arts history nerd . The best way too woo me on a first date is to offer it to be a stroll with me in a medieval weaponry museum . (some did found that by themselves without being told )

Also I'm not against those designs , I can let certain things slide if you make it cool looking . Just her first design that chestplate is a chestbursting hazard more than anything . At least the second one is more sensible and does reflect some chest plate that did exist in the past (just the real ones descended furhter down to cover the entire rib cage )

TL:DR I'm not against rule of cool but I can't help it I practice fighting sports those objects are part of my everyday life when they are stupidly drawn my brain can't help but notice .
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
The thread on this is giving me an aneurysm. More proof this place is NG 2.0, cis men getting to shout over trans people and only the low hanging fruit are dealt with.
The dumbest thing I've seen in that thread (other than the blatant transphobia) is the idea people are putting out that Cyberpunk never had a point and it was just a "cool future" while pretending that the whole of cyberpunk as a genre is ALL political.

Also seeing white male gamers(TM) trying to dictate what transgender men and women are supposed to feel or even trying to suggest that transgender men and women are oppressing the majority through outrage culture is making me want to tear my hair out.
 

Linkark07

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
To be fair, there might be another redesign post timeskip since the other main lords get a rather huge makeover.

...watch it somehow be even worse.
Wouldn't surprise me, although male Avatar had the same outfit... Unless I'm wrong.

But yeah. I seriously want the game director to wear female Avatar outfit and then ask him if he likes it.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
The dumbest thing I've seen in that thread (other than the blatant transphobia) is the idea people are putting out that Cyberpunk never had a point and it was just a "cool future" while pretending that the whole of cyberpunk as a genre is ALL political.

Also seeing white male gamers(TM) trying to dictate what transgender men and women are supposed to feel or even trying to suggest that transgender men and women are oppressing the majority through outrage culture is making me want to tear my hair out.
Dunno which thread you're talkin about but reading your depiction makes me affraid to accidentaly walk in ...
 

Joe2187

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,428
Im still really clueless about the issue in the cyberpunk ad....I've read through some of the threads and im still having a hard time understanding. I see the bulge, and I dont know what the tagline is supposed to reference or the name of the drink.

Cyberpunk and Witcher games were never on my radar so Im not sure what the history is with this topic and after reading through both threads. I only get people referring to CDPR as dealing with issues like these poorly but no idea what they are referencing in regards.

Im just trying to understand. What is ChroManticore supposed to mean?
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Im still really clueless about the issue in the cyberpunk ad....I've read through some of the threads and im still having a hard time understanding. I see the bulge, and I dont know what the tagline is supposed to reference or the name of the drink.

Cyberpunk and Witcher games were never on my radar so Im not sure what the history is with this topic and after reading through both threads. I only get people referring to CDPR as dealing with issues like these poorly but no idea what they are referencing in regards.

Im just trying to understand. What is ChroManticore supposed to mean?
Okay as an intersex I can at least answer on why calling the drink "Chromanticure" isn't exactly the best off all ideas.

Transphobic people are basically these days having "talking points" about how your "chromosomes don't lie" which generaly leads to transwomen bringing up the existence of intersex people (which is my case ) which generaly infiuriates them to the maximum because indeed our very existence does throw a huge wrench in their rethoric about "biologically female" ...

Simply put this ad can be (and given CDPRs track reccord SHOULD BE ) interpreted as a huge transphobic dog whistle of the worst kind . The name of the fake brand alone just reeks of transphobic rethroic .

And again those "biological women" talking points have the fall out consequence to hurt us intersex too .
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
10,233
It's still trying to highlight her boobs just in a non boobplate way , but just by surrounding the boobline with the chest plate
That's... that's quite, quite a stretch. Come on now.

That armour is stylish but not remotely sexualized. It looks badass and tasteful. And of course a chest plate is going to cover her chest. You're losing the plot here. :P

Nah I'd be unsufferably nitpicky
This I agree with ;)

No offense, but if Titania doesn't fit your standards I can't imagine anything that's remotely stylized would ever please you.
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Okay as an intersex I can at least answer on why calling the drink "Chromanticure" isn't exactly the best off all ideas.

Transphobic people are basically these days having "talking points" about how your "chromosomes don't lie" which generaly leads to transwomen bringing up the existence of intersex people (which is my case ) which generaly infiuriates them to the maximum because indeed our very existence does throw a huge wrench in their rethoric about "biologically female" ...

Simply put this ad can be (and given CDPRs track reccord SHOULD BE ) interpreted as a huge transphobic dog whistle of the worst kind . The name of the fake brand alone just reeks of transphobic rethroic .

And again those "biological women" talking points have the fall out consequence to hurt us intersex too .
Which is freakin annoying. So what if your chromosomes say something, it's not like you can see them.

As an intersex person, do you find the image offensive personally, or only offensive in how it can be used to harm transwomen? This is ofcourse without the context of CDPRs track record.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Quick thing on sexualization , thing is some artists do sometime outline the boobs in armor not exactly out of wanting to sexualize per say but because they want to "make human anatomy pop" I have had those convos with more than one character designer trust me , so I do know that sometimes a stupid design isn't ill intentioned and it was just the artist having fun with shapes and the natural curves of the human anatomy at large.
This I agree with ;)

No offense, but if Titania doesn't fit your standards I can't imagine anything that's remotely stylized would ever please you.
Now to answer this one . Once again I do love the design despite my objections in terms of practicality . So there are a lot of designs that are really stylised to hell that do find my favors it's just that there is "being stupid but still kinda practical" and then there is "it is not only stupid looking but wearing that piece of gear is litteraly leading to you offering me pointers on where to bash you to kill you qucikly" ...

Like I said I'm not against rule of cool and I do like very stylised looking armors , but when they get so beyond stupid that rather than protecting you all they do is telling my eyes and hands where to hit you to generate an internal hemorage quickly this is getting beyond distracting for me.
Once again when I do look at someone in armor my brain does throw a "Finaly Fanstasy scan spell Heads up display" on that human sillhouette wearing armor . It's a reflex gained through ... well fighitng while wearing armor myself ...
There are lots of pitfall in her second design that I didn't bother to point out because again "I get it rule of cool you're here to make it look appealing" , but they're not so eggregious that it's legit handing me her ass on a sliver plate .
The first design that chest plate was just begging me to bash my claymore with a 30 degree downard angle on the side of her plate so that I used that spiky bottom part as a way to burst her breast bone for me and that's legit the only thing I saw at first glance before forcing myself to look at the rest concisouly . My lizard brain was seeing nothing but a huge "Bone Bursting Gift" being served to me on a silver plate with a good side of cheese .

TL:DR I have two brians on those questions the "artist brain" and the "fighter brain" and this character has a real cool design that I love (especially the second one that's cool looking as hell and looks fierce ) but the fighter brain will always be the first one to talk and yeah that design could see some improvement in terms of protection ...

EDIT : also if you saw what kind of armor I making my For Honor models wear (especially the male ones ) and then had a conversation with me on how many nasty openings and pitfalls I see from a fighting standpoint you'd see first hand how I'm really of two minds on that question . ^^
My Centurion is wearing some fairly "fabulous" armor and clothing on the battlefield :P
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Which is freakin annoying. So what if your chromosomes say something, it's not like you can see them.

As an intersex person, do you find the image offensive personally, or only offensive in how it can be used to harm transwomen? This is ofcourse without the context of CDPRs track record.
Everytime you put chromosomes in a discussion / piece of art with a transwomen you're hurting both communities at large.

I don't even wanna know the context surrounding this ad in the game . They are CDPR and given their past I don't wanna give them the benefit of the doubt I don't even want to hear an attempt at justifying themselves . Storylines touching on us are off the table on what they have a right to open their mouths about for a full decade to me .

So to asnwer to you "offensive ? no we're past the point of offense here , that's legit transphobic rethoric turned into an ad into their upcoming game here "
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Everytime you put chromosomes in a discussion / piece of art with a transwomen you're hurting both communities at large.

I don't even wanna know the context surrounding this ad in the game . They are CDPR and given their past I don't wanna give them the benefit of the doubt I don't even want to hear an attempt at justifying themselves . Storylines touching on us are off the table on what they have a right to open their mouths about for a full decade to me .

So to asnwer to you "offensive ? no we're past the point of offense here , that's legit transphobic rethoric turned into an ad into their upcoming game here "
Thank you for the response, I understand.

As for the context, I meant as if it was not CDPR that has a history of transphobic rhetoric, but even then as you said the words used in the art make it even more offensive.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Indeed it doesn't on the other hand thanks for the precision at least now I know which pronoun to use .
Still I can see between the two drawings other massive improvements in her character design in other parts of the armor . Sooo I guess she was "lorded over" by some horndog that kept asking to "outline the hills at least" (or whatever gross euphemism that may work in your native language folks come on you know what I mean right now ) but she kept fighitng the good fight but everytime it all boiled down too , Mister Horndog being big mad that the boobs are not visible enough ...
Current FE character designer is a woman as well. She worked on many otome games before, including Uta-Prince and was also responsible for the og designs of Samurai Flamenco.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Even with that statement, the fans of CDPR are going to extremely transphobic and racist statement and screaming "outrage" in a blind attempt to pretend that there are no problems and hell, even daring to accuse transgender people of being the true suppressors just to protect a game just pisses me off so much.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Hope for them that through writing they do explore that aspect further down . Because sorry not sorry but sounds like what clever transphobes that know damn well what their doing trying to weasel their way out of trouble ...
In other words until the game comes out with CDPRs past this whole statement reeks of "plausible deniability" like mad .
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Interesting, I wonder if there will be a disconnect between the art and the story telling. She knows what she wants to show, however, I'm not sure if CDPR are able to support that with their writing.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I see I'm not the only one to have my doubts . Feels good to see you're not alone feeling like this all explanation rings a bit to shallow and hollow ...

This just reads so hollow when everything shown of Cyberpunk 2077 so far has been so completely sanitized of sexuality and LGBT representation. Nothing shown so far makes it seem like brazen depictions of objectified sexuality aren't still considered taboo in Night City, which makes the advertisement just popping up on a wall seem more like an attempt to be absurd and mocking. Especially when the advertisement's design is designed similarly to bigoted jokes about trans people - "Oh, a sexy woman! Ah, surprise, there's a penis. Mix it up! Don't take it personally, It's a joke." which just comes across as bigotry in the guise of edgy social commentary.
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,256
Madrid
I'd unironically like to live in a world where TheSyldat could become an advisor on design accuracy for artists working on armor and martial art designs.
Seconded. Their posts on archery were extremely informative.

In a more general sense, would it kill game developers to consult with experts on these topics? There must be thousands of fans of these things that would jump at the chance of having some input on games.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,747
Seconded. Their posts on archery were extremely informative.

In a more general sense, would it kill game developers to consult with experts on these topics? There must be thousands of fans of these things that would jump at the chance of having some input on games.
Because most armor is sensible and practical and they usually just want to show the titty above all else.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
813
God fucking damnit, they rolled out a woman, played that card, and gave bigots/assholes more ammo to dismiss us. I don't give a shit if a woman designed it and has good intentions. CDRP is not going out of their way to make sure that the game is going to positively represent trans people.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Seconded. Their posts on archery were extremely informative.

In a more general sense, would it kill game developers to consult with experts on these topics? There must be thousands of fans of these things that would jump at the chance of having some input on games.
Some actually do consult (hell got a friend working on armor designs in For Honor that asked me to give my thoughts on various centurion gear during the early dev of For Honor I didn't even knew what he was working on as far as I am concerned I just gave feedback on designs)

But like I said I fully am aware that I am one hell of a nitpicky weasel . So when I pair up with a character designer I "train the mother fucker" to tell the difference between my battle brain and my gamer brain . Like I said I'm willing to forgive a looooot of shit in the name of rule of cool . But that doesn't mean I'll shut up about how stupid the design is . So you need to pair me up with an artist that understand that I'm not being mad at them or attacking them and that "part of the fun" is to find a happy middle ground between fight brain and game brain .
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
Their explanation and alleged normalization of gender non-conformity in Cyberpunk 2077 rings hollow in a game that will only let you play as a male or female character.
 

Pandora012

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,958
Their explanation and alleged normalization of gender non-conformity in Cyberpunk 2077 rings hollow in a game that will only let you play as a male or female character.
Legit thought it was more, and that it had an extensive character creator. Seems I might have mixed what Bloodlines 2 is doing with Cyber. It's unfortunate.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
813
Their explanation and alleged normalization of gender non-conformity in Cyberpunk 2077 rings hollow in a game that will only let you play as a male or female character.
Yep, they are enforcing the gender binary until proven otherwise. Also gender non-conformity is completely separate from gender identity so she doesn't know her shit.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,317
God fucking damnit, they rolled out a woman, played that card, and gave bigots/assholes more ammo to dismiss us. I don't give a shit if a woman designed it and has good intentions. CDRP is not going out of their way to make sure that the game is going to positively represent trans people.
Yep! It's amazing how we have all these good points from trans folks explaining why this is bad and all it takes is CDPR going "lol no" for gamers to act like we're the crazy ones.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,885
God fucking damnit, they rolled out a woman, played that card, and gave bigots/assholes more ammo to dismiss us. I don't give a shit if a woman designed it and has good intentions. CDRP is not going out of their way to make sure that the game is going to positively represent trans people.
I mean, it comes across as really dismissive to just say "They rolled out a woman" to refer to the very person designing this content. She's the exact person you'd want someone to ask about the context behind it because she's the one that created it. She's not some PR mouthpiece for the game.
 

TheEchosOfTheCyborg

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Feb 24, 2018
565
Hi, not a regular commenter in this thread, don't usually feel like I can contribute greatly to much of the discussion, but here I have to because the CDPR stuff is bthering me and reading the two threads about it made incredibly uncomfortable just to sheer amount of people dismissing trans women's worries and criticism for it, I first saw the add on Rock, Paper, Shotgun and saw it and just sighed and was happy it was pointed out in the comments there. My wish to play a positive Trans woman in games isn't going to happen is it (and as much as I like Poison from SF, the way Capcom has handled her still isn't great). I admit the thing that made me comment here (and I'm worried this is going to get me banned for saying this) was seeing a mod act dismissive to the criticism in the CDPR repsonce thread, that kind of made me feel uncomfortable knowing a mod here feels like that.

Also on the topic of boob armour, I never like combat, sport or martial arts uniforms sexualized, it just doesn't make sense to me since that's supposed to be practical first. For example, Anna and Nina Williams, for whatever reason Nina's purple stealth suit bother me more the way it's sexualized then Anna's red dress because it makes no sense to me why a combat suit would have holes in like that and just not look like it's fictional for combat.

Also last thing, I love Symmetra in Overwatch and wish we had more autsitc women in video games that I can see myself in.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,317
Just noticed we lost Kinsei. With all the shit that's been going on in the last few days I'm not surprised she left.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
813
I mean, it comes across as really dismissive to just say "They rolled out a woman" to refer to the very person designing this content. She's the exact person you'd want someone to ask about the context behind it because she's the one that created it. She's not some PR mouthpiece for the game.
She is acting as a PR mouthpiece whether she intends to or not. Women get used by the men in control like this. Do you see the project leads addressing the bigger issue? No and you completely ignored the rest of my post.
Just noticed we lost Kinsei. With all the shit that's been going on in the last few days I'm not surprised she left.
I'm tempted to leave too. This place doesn't deserve trans women like me and I'm fucking tired of cis nonsense.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
6,694
Just noticed we lost Kinsei. With all the shit that's been going on in the last few days I'm not surprised she left.
Does not surprise me, the malice some of the post showed was on another level. Then you had plenty of people even questioning the intent of the thread and that it was just a troll topic. Nintendo fans are the worst here. I remember something similar in Smash representation thread were some poster said that Game and Watch and DK were the black representation and the Pokemon cat was the Latino one.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Yeah, these threads have been exhausting to read to say the least. Hopefully we can get people to take our concerns seriously at some point in the future
I'm not having my hopes high ...
Sadly the powers that be are still bigoted dyadic cis straight whie men in most occidental cultures countries ...
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,885
She is acting as a PR mouthpiece whether she intends to or not. Women get used by the men in control like this. Do you see the project leads addressing the bigger issue? No and you completely ignored the rest of my post.
What i'm saying is that the image in particular is exactly what she was behind. That's her work. So I don't see how she's being used when she's literally giving meaning to the work that she contributed to the game. Polygon found the right person to actually explain the context behind what's being shown. As far as the rest of your post, I didn't comment on it simply because I can't answer it. Certainly CDPR's recent history with trans issues doesn't inspire confidence. But we won't have definitive word one way or another until the game is out. There have been studios that have done questionable things and then turned for the better, and studios that have done questionable things and continued to do them.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,353
Kinsei leaving is a huge loss. She was a great poster, but I can understand the decision she took and anyone else that would. I am a straight cis man myself, but the apathy and bigotry towards anyone but ourselves is getting hard to bear. These people sold their fucking integrity for video games.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Kinsei leaving is a huge loss. She was a great poster, but I can understand the decision she took and anyone else that would. I am a straight cis man myself, but the apathy and bigotry towards anyone but ourselves is getting hard to bear. These people sold their fucking integrity for video games.
Syldat throws fluffy teddy bears in Biestmann general vicinity

Frankly I can't blame her as an intersex ERA isn't all that welcoming to intersex folk either .

I hope she'll go see friends see some other landscapes and places , and come back to us one day .

Then again it would be easier for her to come back if this place was less filled with a bunch of dyadic cis straight dudes thinking and straight up saying that they know more than us what is punching us down and what isn't ...