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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

captainmoch

Member
Jul 5, 2019
20
I was already ready to never buy another Atlus game again after all the stuff they've pulled in past games, and sexualizing a rape victim is just solidifying that for me. The worst part is I know there's going to be so much praise for Royal once it comes out with so many people completely brushing off things like this. It happens every time an Atlus game (or just JRPG in general) comes out... I'm so very tired of the constant misogyny, sexualization of teenagers, homophobia, transphobia, etc. just being ignored by mass audiences. Sure, it's okay to like things with problematic elements and all, but the extent that this kind of stuff is simply swept under the rug in gaming communities is incredibly disheartening as a woman.
 

Lumi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,462
My understanding is that gender fluid means from day to day the gender you identify as may shift. Some days you'll feel more feminine, others more masculine, sometimes in between. As such preferred pronouns may differ from day to day as well. Nonbinary is a gender identity where you don't really identify with being completely male or female, although for a variety of reasons a nonbinary person may still use gendered pronouns (I'm fine with she/her and they/them for example).
This is how I understand it. It shouldn't be conflated with other nonbinary identities, since nonbinary is essentially an umbrella. For example, some people perpetually feel like they're in the middle of the gender spectrum.
 
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Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,404
Not gonna lie, I'd be interested to know what reviewers make of Kojima's treatment of female characters in Death Stranding. Took a quick look over the review thread but didn't see anything specific. I hope this isn't another case where Kojima's misogyny will get swept under the rug in favour of jacking it to his "genius".
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,809
Not gonna lie, I'd be interested to know what reviewers make of Kojima's treatment of female characters in Death Stranding. Took a quick look over the review thread but didn't see anything specific. I hope this isn't another case where Kojima's misogyny will get swept under the rug in favour of jacking it to his "genius".
That's exactly what will happen, outside of a few more socially aware outlets. Game reviewers don't care or aren't even equipped to comment on such matters.
 

Xshade90

Member
Nov 2, 2017
178
Not gonna lie, I'd be interested to know what reviewers make of Kojima's treatment of female characters in Death Stranding. Took a quick look over the review thread but didn't see anything specific. I hope this isn't another case where Kojima's misogyny will get swept under the rug in favour of jacking it to his "genius".

Here I found something on Kotaku. I'm letting you judge by yourself :

Death Stranding sometimes falls into reductive gender tropes, in much the same way that other Kojima games do. This is a story of fatherhood, very often to the expense of the women in the cast. Sam’s ongoing bond with his bridge baby intersects with the story of Mads Mikkelsen’s mysterious villain Cliff, underpinning the main plot’s world-shaking politics with more human and relatable sentiments. But Death Strandingstumbles when the time comes to handle the women and their stories. There are gestures at motherhood themes to go along with the fatherhood themes, such as a storyline that uses ghosts as metaphor for postpartum depression, but this is ultimately a story about men, and one where even the bravest sacrifices of the female characters come hand in hand with the same characteristic leering camerawork of Kojima’s previous games. It’s never so gross as Metal Gear Solid V’s Quiet, but it’s still a noticeable issue that undercuts the narrative’s larger examination of parental pain and sacrifice.
The critic is about how the game frames men compared to women :

That said, Death Stranding is also just as infatuated with the male body. Whether that’s the sensual framing of Mikkelsen smoking a cigarette or the way the camera moves to ensure you’ve seen just enough of Reedus’ naked body during shower scenes, Death Stranding’s bisexual camera is more interested in men than even the torture-laden, blood licking Metal Gear franchise. The difference is ultimately in how lovingly men are framed compared to women, both by the literal camera and also their place in the larger narrative. Fragile’s body can be marred by timefall, rain lapping at her skin, but it’s still ultimately Léa Seydoux running in the rain as the camera focuses on her ass. Reedus stands naked on a beach, and Mikkelsen rises out of a tar pit, and yeah, it’s sexy, but they’re also allowed far more nobility.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,385
Here I found something on Kotaku. I'm letting you judge by yourself :



The critic is about how the game frames men compared to women :
Glad to see at least one (?) reviewer is touching upon the subject. Though I don't even know where to start with the phrase "bisexual camera". I think they needed to have come up with a better phrase than that.
 

Shining Star

Member
May 14, 2019
821
JRPGs are much like anime, except it's even rarer to see one solely aimed at women.
It's really not rare to see anime aimed at women at all. In fact, anime aimed at women or both genders equally definitely exceed anime aimed specifically at men, or at least it feels that way. JRPGs are a different story. There are a lot that appeal to me specifically things like Atelier and Trails, and I think Fire Emblem has a pretty big female fanbase?
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,235
Here I found something on Kotaku. I'm letting you judge by yourself :



The critic is about how the game frames men compared to women :
That said, Death Stranding is also just as infatuated with the male body. Whether that’s the sensual framing of Mikkelsen smoking a cigarette or the way the camera moves to ensure you’ve seen just enough of Reedus’ naked body during shower scenes, Death Stranding’s bisexual camera is more interested in men than even the torture-laden, blood licking Metal Gear franchise. The difference is ultimately in how lovingly men are framed compared to women, both by the literal camera and also their place in the larger narrative. Fragile’s body can be marred by timefall, rain lapping at her skin, but it’s still ultimately Léa Seydoux running in the rain as the camera focuses on her ass. Reedus stands naked on a beach, and Mikkelsen rises out of a tar pit, and yeah, it’s sexy, but they’re also allowed far more nobility.
Well now I know what the prevailing counter argument is gonna be.

"Both genders are sexualized in DS."
 

Brian Damage

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,874
UK
I though the Waypoint review would mention any iffy stuff but nothing came up. On the Giant Beastcast they described Fragile's backstory as "Not Quiet stupid, but pretty close" (paraphrased).
 

captainmoch

Member
Jul 5, 2019
20
Is anyone else exhausted of this attitude of "(insert creator) is a brilliant, GENIUS auter of their medium" while simultaneously ignoring the rampant misogyny in the creator's works, which prevails not just with Hideo Kojima, but with so many male content creators across most art forms? It gets so tiring seeing the sexism not only ignored, but the person behind the sexism being treated as a genius as well.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,056
Is anyone else exhausted of this attitude of "(insert creator) is a brilliant, GENIUS auter of their medium" while simultaneously ignoring the rampant misogyny in the creator's works, which prevails not just with Hideo Kojima, but with so many male content creators across most art forms? It gets so tiring seeing the sexism not only ignored, but the person behind the sexism being treated as a genius as well.
Oh it’s so annoying. Sexism is seen as some niggly little thing that’s kinda an issue but you can mostly ignore but pretty much any other issue in Gaming is blown out of proportion and treated like a life and death thing. It happens again and again. It’s so frustrating.
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,632
Is anyone else exhausted of this attitude of "(insert creator) is a brilliant, GENIUS auter of their medium" while simultaneously ignoring the rampant misogyny in the creator's works, which prevails not just with Hideo Kojima, but with so many male content creators across most art forms? It gets so tiring seeing the sexism not only ignored, but the person behind the sexism being treated as a genius as well.
It's definitely annoying. Especially when MGS3, the one with a great woman character (The Boss), was going to be way waaaaaay worse if it wasn't for editors reeling him in. And even that game has Eva's unnecessary open jacket to show off her bra. People tend to put directors on pedestals who can do know wrong. It's exhausting to deal with such fans.
 

captainmoch

Member
Jul 5, 2019
20
Oh it’s so annoying. Sexism is seen as some niggly little thing that’s kinda an issue but you can mostly ignore but pretty much any other issue in Gaming is blown out of proportion and treated like a life and death thing. It happens again and again. It’s so frustrating.
Right? The video game community will have a collective fit over the smallest things, yet literal sexism and violence towards women is often just treated as a quirky minor thing and not a legitimate major issue with the creator's work and viewpoints. The complete lack of criticism or even acknowledgement toward that is so unfortunate.
It's definitely annoying. Especially when MGS3, the one with a great woman character (The Boss), was going to be way waaaaaay worse if it wasn't for editors reeling him in. And even that game has Eva's unnecessary open jacket to show off her bra. People tend to put directors on pedestals who can do know wrong. It's exhausting to deal with such fans.
For sure. It's not like people can't still enjoy something even if the creator has a few problematic viewpoints that are translated into their work; I'm not here to be the fun police, after all. I just wish people could acknowledge those problematic elements instead of simply praising the creator as some sort of God-like mastermind auteur who could do no wrong. It's ridiculous and way too common.
 

Kung Fucius

Member
Jun 28, 2019
129


I really like Leo as a gender fluid character. In Tekken 6, there are moves that are gender exclusive and Leo can do them for both genders and could equip gender exclusive items too. I had a friend that was gender fluid and she (born a female so I'll use those pronouns for simplicity's sake without having to use her name) started playing Tekken and immediately picked Leo as her starter character without even knowing that the developers had designed Leo to be gender fluid.

It's a shame that Tekken Tag 2 decided that Leo is female, but the Tekken Tag Series is seen as non-canon anyway. I think Leo is much more interesting without the gender assignment.
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
321
It's definitely annoying. Especially when MGS3, the one with a great woman character (The Boss), was going to be way waaaaaay worse if it wasn't for editors reeling him in. And even that game has Eva's unnecessary open jacket to show off her bra. People tend to put directors on pedestals who can do know wrong. It's exhausting to deal with such fans.
Wait what what was Kojima's original plan for The Boss?
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
321


I really like Leo as a gender fluid character. In Tekken 6, there are moves that are gender exclusive and Leo can do them for both genders and could equip gender exclusive items too. I had a friend that was gender fluid and she (born a female so I'll use those pronouns for simplicity's sake without having to use her name) started playing Tekken and immediately picked Leo as her starter character without even knowing that the developers had designed Leo to be gender fluid.
Not exactly, unlike females Leo can't counter-slap Anna's b+2,2, which is important vs Anna since Anna uses it to punish -15 moves in lieu of a launcher
 

Kung Fucius

Member
Jun 28, 2019
129
Not exactly, unlike females Leo can't counter-slap Anna's b+2,2, which is important vs Anna since Anna uses it to punish -15 moves in lieu of a launcher
Yeah, that's a big omission and it would have been great if Leo could do it since it's probably the best known gender exclusive move in the game. Maybe they decided to give Anna a break on that one. :) The one move I can think of that's female exclusive is the universal running 3. Male characters land on their feet and female characters land laying down. Leo does the female version, but Leo can also do the Headbutt Carnival which is male exclusive.
 
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NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
321
Yeah, that's a big omission and it would have been great if Leo could do it since it's probably the best known gender exclusive move in the game. Maybe they decided to give Anna a break on that one. :)
Noo they should've taken it out completely, it's literally an easter egg that hurts an already mediocre character (bc she's really sexualized hah)

The one move I can think of that's female exclusive is the universal running 3. Male characters land on their feet and female characters land laying down. Leo does the female version, but Leo can also do the Headbutt Carnival which is male exclusive.
nah Leo's generic running 3 is just the generic male version, same stats and everything. The fact that generic female running 3s land on the ground feels like a relic of 90s fighting game development sexism tbh (for example how before Makoto in Street Fighter 3 female chars in Street Fighter on average have less health and follow simmilar character archtypes bc Capcom back then believed that females are weaker that males)
 

Static_Void

Member
Oct 30, 2018
3,282
north of the Dreamlands
Not gonna lie, I'd be interested to know what reviewers make of Kojima's treatment of female characters in Death Stranding. Took a quick look over the review thread but didn't see anything specific. I hope this isn't another case where Kojima's misogyny will get swept under the rug in favour of jacking it to his "genius".
I'm afraid this is exactly what will happen...
 

Kung Fucius

Member
Jun 28, 2019
129
Noo they should've taken it out completely, it's literally an easter egg that hurts an already mediocre character (bc she's really sexualized hah)

nah Leo's generic running 3 is just the generic male version, same stats and everything. The fact that generic female running 3s land on the ground feels like a relic of 90s fighting game development sexism tbh (for example how before Makoto in Street Fighter 3 female chars in Street Fighter on average have less health and follow simmilar character archtypes bc Capcom back then believed that females are weaker that males)
I don't play Anna or Nina so I don't dislike that the move is there. Actually I think it would be funny if Anna/Nina could slap back after the counterslap and start a slap war kind of like the headbutt carnival. After I saw that video you posted though, I feel do kind of feel bad that Anna can't safely use her 15f punisher on female characters though.

About the running 3 - really? Does Leo have the male version in both T7 and T6? I could have sworn I had a discussion with my friends about Leo when we were still playing T6 and they said that Leo does a female version running 3 which conflicted with the headbutt carnival and the fact that Leo could equip a sledgehammer.
 

SapphiCine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,385
It's really not rare to see anime aimed at women at all. In fact, anime aimed at women or both genders equally definitely exceed anime aimed specifically at men, or at least it feels that way. JRPGs are a different story. There are a lot that appeal to me specifically things like Atelier and Trails, and I think Fire Emblem has a pretty big female fanbase?
What. Can I join you in this parallel universe?
 

Xaszatm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,632
Do...do men know anything about breasts? Or at least to male writers know anything about breasts?
 

Morrigan

Armoring
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,585
Not gonna lie, I'd be interested to know what reviewers make of Kojima's treatment of female characters in Death Stranding. Took a quick look over the review thread but didn't see anything specific. I hope this isn't another case where Kojima's misogyny will get swept under the rug in favour of jacking it to his "genius".
I really want to know this too. Almost no review that I could see made any mention of it. Pretty disappointing.

Is anyone else exhausted of this attitude of "(insert creator) is a brilliant, GENIUS auter of their medium" while simultaneously ignoring the rampant misogyny in the creator's works, which prevails not just with Hideo Kojima, but with so many male content creators across most art forms? It gets so tiring seeing the sexism not only ignored, but the person behind the sexism being treated as a genius as well.
Yes

With the announcement of Overwatch 2 what does everyone think of the characters redesigns?
lmao at those legs... did Rob Liefeld draw this?

 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,564
The overwatch redesigns feel like something that would be an alt costume drop, like rare tier from the gambling crates. I also haven't played overwatch in forever so its like "oh, it's them"