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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,214
japan hate stuff that is made in the west

How many japanese women characters were famous in the 90's by the time FF7 had just came out
"people asked me who samus was when smash 64 was released" said sakurai in the latest smash video.

It was basically chun li or mai
I doubt anyone even remembered Alis =P
They don’t.
Thing is they have a lot of national content to consume so it’s easier to go with that, but they still know a lot of movies/series that weren’t made in japan .-. Frozen completely blew up there to the point it got annoying xD, same goes for most disney stuff

Foreign shows also get translated and dubbed there, i’d be careful while doing these generalizations because, they’re just a shortcut to avoid talking about the real issues

Also metroid is japanese o- o
 

residentgrigo

Member
Oct 30, 2019
195
Germany
But it´s female noses that are going away NoirSuede. I just looked at a bunch of KyoAni promo posters and key art. I am on to them. Shakes fist. But feel free to look yourself. That said. Vinland Saga (it will take a while till prominent female characters show up again) has noticeable noses on women. Both the Persona 5 game and anime have them too. Not all is lost and Atlus of all people is fighting for my female noses. Interesting.

Phantasy Star 1 had a female lead Platy. It never happened again but they beat FF. Remember Phantasy Star being good everyone... Japan frankly lead the wave with female leads in both the 80s and 90s. Capcom especially.

Non-Japanese games aren´t seen as "Western Dog Shit" in Japan anymore. The Xbox One cratered like never before for Microsoft over there but The Witcher 3 and the last half dozen CoDs sold REALLY well by the standards of console games. Japan's Video Game Rankings, October 21-27:

CoD: MW (a Cero Z game) took the No. 1 slot and continued to sell next week. Minecraft on the Switch further sold close to a million copies at retail in Japan. Only the big games truly break out but they do break out.
 
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dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,105
japan hate stuff that is made in the west

How many japanese women characters were famous in the 90's by the time FF7 had just came out
"people asked me who samus was when smash 64 was released" said sakurai in the latest smash video.

It was basically chun li or mai
I doubt anyone even remembered Alis =P
This is a daft thing to say.
Japan loves stuff created in the west. Superheroes, Disney, Pixar, Star Wars etc, etc.
Hell, 'My Hero Academia' was a direct reaction to the western superhero boom.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,862
i saw this earlier today and it seems to be relevant, no idea how things are now, as this seems to be strictly about the 90s

That was actually an interesting post.
Favorite characters:
Guys picked guys they wanted to be?
Girls picked girls they wanted to be?
Female characters:
Guys picked girls they wanted to marry?
Girls picked girls they wanted to be?

It would be interesting to see this poll in 2019.
 

dan2026

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,105
That was actually an interesting post.
Favorite characters:
Guys picked guys they wanted to be?
Girls picked girls they wanted to be?
Female characters:
Guys picked girls they wanted to marry?
Girls picked girls they wanted to be?

It would be interesting to see this poll in 2019.
It's funny, I'm a guy but I don't think I'd put Mai in my top five SNK women either.
Not because I don't like her, I just think a lot of the others are way more interesting.
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
325
France
I was wondering, how does ERA overall feel about Persona 5? I see claims that this site is like anti-persona or fire emblem even, which I'm sure aren't valid
Persona 5 is an excellent game that is tainted by homophobic and sexist issues, and for a game that is supposed to be about "fighting against society injustice" and shit, it's contradictory and badly handled sometimes. Persona 3 and 4 also have similar problems (the beach scene, Yosuke being homophobic, etc).
As for FE, I suppose it was mostly when FE:Fates was out, and some stuff in that game was... bad. I didn't like FE:Fates personally. Gameplay was very good, but the story was stupid. FE:3H however is a huge improvement.

But anyway, these games have issues that need to be addressed because they should not be acceptable in 2019. "Artist's vision' and "but Japanese culture" are bad excuses to dismiss criticism.
If the gameplay is bad, do people dismiss it by saying "it's a feature, it's part of the artistic vision"? No.
If the graphics are terrible, do people dismiss it by saying "it's the artist's artstyle, it's their vision"? Nope.
If the story is awful, do people dismiss it by saying "it's the story that they want to tell"? Nah.
Well okay, actually, some people do it, but usually there are debates about it. BUT when it's about sexist/LGBT/diversity issues, no debates allowed, it's "politics" or "agenda", or whatever new terms they come up with. Some say "if the gameplay is good, that's enough". Okay, sure, if you personally enjoy the game despite its other issues, it's fine. However, do not tell other people who wish to discuss those issues that ruin THEIR experience to shut up about it, or they're "sensitive".

"Respect of the artist's vision" is a lazy excuse for people who don't want to discuss those issues seriously. If they don't want to have that conversation, they can also choose to shut up and let other people do it. Some of them even talk about "freedom of speech/freedom of the artists to express themselves", but they don't let people express their concerns and criticism, they want them to shut up because "artist's vision".
As for "but Japanese culture", I understand that comment can be used as an explanation, because Japan is not the most LGBT or women-friendly country in the world, but that doesn't make it okay, especially when a game is released globally. That excuse is also kinda insulting towards Japanese people because it basically means "oh Japanese people don't know better, pls forgive them", it's a tad infantilizing. And that also implies that Japanese people cannot do better whereas the famous Yakuza example exists.

Anyway uh, there are people on Era that can explain all of that better than me, I'm not good at it lol. But I also wanted to express my frustation. We all should have discussions about improving games that we love, on all kind of topics (story, graphics, music, gameplay), and if we want video games to do better in general.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
13,050
The most inexplicably popular American media in Japan has to be Twin Peaks.

So popular it was a major inspiration for iconic series like Zelda and Silent Hill.
 

Linde

Member
Sep 2, 2018
3,219
i like Mai (design wise) because shes hot. i wouldve enjoyed her in smash. i dont think its uncommon at all for people to want to play as characters they find attractive even if theyre not sexually attracted, its just how people work. most of my friends will gravitate towards peach/zss/palutena, if not kirby or other cute characters if smash is being played
someone like ganondorf wont be touched with a ten foot pole
 

Joe2187

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,773
Meanwhile in Akihabara

More! Impregnate! Boobs of Flame Super Erotic App Academy (thats the actual title of the game by the way)


This thing appears to be several stories tall as well...so it can be seen for quite a distance.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,862
It's funny, I'm a guy but I don't think I'd put Mai in my top five SNK women either.
Not because I don't like her, I just think a lot of the others are way more interesting.
Maybe you just don’t want to marry her? ;)

Seriously though, that’s an interesting poll. I don’t know how to make one but we totally need a 2019 fighting game character poll.

I know just by listening to my wife who’s a gamer as well that the current design trend is super annoying at least as a woman. Why are they wearing bikinis? What’s the reasoning there? Why can’t they have regular clothes? Or martial arts clothes?
As for Mai, the idle pose is provocative and 100% fan service but at least the swaying in an unsupported dress makes some sense, can’t say the same for Honoka’s exaggerated bouncing :P
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
325
France
I know just by listening to my wife who’s a gamer as well that the current design trend is super annoying at least as a woman. Why are they wearing bikinis? What’s the reasoning there? Why can’t they have regular clothes? Or martial arts clothes?
Well, we already know why. That's why it's frustrating x)
What they did to Hilde in SCVI pisses me off too. The heels, even if ridiculous, do not bother me that much because it's not something you notice immediately, but the boob armor? Really? She didn't have that shit in her previous design, and it's fucking ugly.
Gosh, I cannot be glad enough that Soulsborne exists. No female characters wear boob armor in these games. Their designs are amazing and unique. Why can't more games do that? It's not fucking hard.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,862
Well, we already know why. That's why it's frustrating x)
What they did to Hilde in SCVI pisses me off too. The heels, even if ridiculous, do not bother me that much because it's not something you notice immediately, but the boob armor? Really? She didn't have that shit in her previous design, and it's fucking ugly.
Gosh, I cannot be glad enough that Soulsborne exists. No female characters wear boob armor in these games. Their designs are amazing and unique. Why can't more games do that? It's not fucking hard.
Agreed. Hilde was pretty much ruined designwise. As someone said in the reveal thread, the armour design would essentially direct a thrust with a sword to the center of her chest, which is not very clever. And if they wanted to show off her bust size they could’ve done so in an alternative costume.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,746
I'm not really sure how to fix the current fighting game scene, but it's going to need to be a pretty massive re-think if it's ever going to attempt to appeal to people who aren't adolescent teenagers (mostly male). The reason for a lack of popularity is not that people don't like the games - it's that the designs and stories being told aren't interesting. That said, they'll continue to appeal to the audience that's already bought in regardless of where game designers take it. Those who are invested in it will continue to play even while they whine about aspects they don't like. Catering to a small audience is always going to have a lot of drawbacks, and the biggest of those is the massive repetition and generally lazy design (and while that strongly applies to fighting games, it applies to video games more generally, especially of late).
Gosh, I cannot be glad enough that Soulsborne exists. No female characters wear boob armor in these games. Their designs are amazing and unique. Why can't more games do that? It's not fucking hard.
If you think about it in the context that the people you're talking to are basically manchildren, it is pretty difficult. Not because it's actually difficult, but because they are that stunted in their ability to process creativity outside a very narrow window.

Women aren't supposed to be "cool" in Japan. Baddasses like Lady Maria aren't allowed because of their ridiculously sexist society.
 
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May 13, 2019
900
As for "but Japanese culture", I understand that comment can be used as an explanation, because Japan is not the most LGBT or women-friendly country in the world, but that doesn't make it okay, especially when a game is released globally
That's actually the issue when it comes to Atlus. At this point, it's quite obvious that the company only cares about the Japanese market. The global audience is just an irrelevant afterthought to them.
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
325
France
Women aren't supposed to be "cool" in Japan. Baddasses like Lady Maria aren't allowed because of their ridiculously sexist society.
Actually, it seems they are allowed to be badasses as long as they are cute or sexy (Lady Maria could be considered sexy, but you know what kind of sexy I mean). There are people who consider some Touhou characters badasses for example, but the cute factor plays a big role.

It could be argued that badass characters in general have an attractive design to please the audience, but we can agree that most male characters are designed to be "cool" while most female characters need to be "sexy" or "cute".
Since we were talking about fighting games, Street Fighter V is a good example. Male characters are allowed to be fat (Birdie), very tall and thin (FANG), absolute unit (Abigail), or old (Dhalsim, Zeku), and each design is cool and badass in their own way. The female characters however, none of them are allowed to be older than forty years old, most of them have similar body types, and they're either cute or sexy. Also not allowed to wear pants lmao.
And to be honest, it's boring. Some people say "nobody wants to play ugly characters", but that's not true. They are characters who are not considered conveniently attractive that can be fun to play and have a lot of charm and personality. I'm not saying "stop making cute or sexy female characters", I'm saying "be more diverse with female characters as you are with male characters".
Give me a badass old woman like Lady Butterfly from Sekiro. Give me a creepy female character like Corrupted Monk. (Yes again with Sekiro/Soulsborne examples, but what can I say, when it's about diverse female characters, they're one of the best)

That's actually the issue when it comes to Atlus. At this point, it's quite obvious that the company only cares about the Japanese market. The global audience is just an irrelevant afterthought to them.
Yeah. I also believe they don't care about sexism and LGBT issues at all. Yakuza devs made an effort to address the transphobia issue, they made the choice to improve themselves. Persona devs just... don't care. "It doesn't affect sales, so whatever", they probably think.
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,214
t could be argued that badass characters in general have an attractive design to please the audience, but we can agree that most male characters are designed to be "cool" while most female characters need to be "sexy" or "cute".
Since we were talking about fighting games, Street Fighter V is a good example. Male characters are allowed to be fat (Birdie), very tall and thin (FANG), absolute unit (Abigail), or old (Dhalsim, Zeku), and each design is cool and badass in their own way. The female characters however, none of them are allowed to be older than forty years old, most of them have similar body types, and they're either cute or sexy. Also not allowed to wear pants lmao.
And to be honest, it's boring. Some people say "nobody wants to play ugly characters", but that's not true. They are characters who are not considered conveniently attractive that can be fun to play and have a lot of charm and personality. I'm not saying "stop making cute or sexy female characters", I'm saying "be more diverse with female characters as you are with male characters
Aside from the skirt part all of these could be said about western games as well. Every female character is at least attractive, body types never change, and having badas women over 40 years old is a very recent thing. Idk why y’all make it look like it’s a japanese only thing. It’s not like Ellie and new lara croft aren’t mase to be cute, or the uncharted ladies aren't meant to look attractive, the key difference is looking their age but that’s mostly abou aesthetics than anything.

I’m still waiting for overwatch to release another Ana or Zarya, they made 3 girls with a alight dofferent body types and a robot and called it a day

From software is a japanese studio and they did more about female character designs than most of the studios around the world, generalizing is not good folks, as bad as moe culture is, it is one (huge)market in a pool of lots of other markets in japan
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
325
France
Aside from the skirt part all of these could be said about western games as well. Every female character is at least attractive, body types never change, and having badas women over 40 years old is a very recent thing. Idk why y’all make it look like it’s a japanese only thing. It’s not like Ellie and new lara croft aren’t mase to be cute, or the uncharted ladies aren't meant to look attractive, the key difference is looking their age but that’s mostly abou aesthetics than anything.

I’m still waiting for overwatch to release another Ana or Zarya, they made 3 girls with a alight dofferent body types and a robot and called it a day

From software is a japanese studio and they did more about female character designs than most of the studios around the world, generalizing is not good folks, as bad as moe culture is, it is one (huge)market in a pool of lots of other markets in japan
You are right. It's just that western devs seem to make some efforts at least while the Japanese devs, well...
And yes, From is a japanese studio, they are one of the few exceptions, and they show that Japanese games aren't only about moe and anime waifus. I cannot think of other big Japanese devs that do what they do at the moment though.

(Speaking of western games, I didn't see a lot of people talking about the diversity in Bleeding Edge)
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,214
You are right. It's just that western devs seem to make some efforts at least while the Japanese devs, well...
And yes, From is a japanese studio, they are one of the few exceptions, and they show that Japanese games aren't only about moe and anime waifus. I cannot think of other big Japanese devs that do what they do at the moment though.

(Speaking of western games, I didn't see a lot of people talking about the diversity in Bleeding Edge)
I think it’s more about the aesthetic being more pleasing to our audience in western games since folks go to that hollywood movie aesthetic...

Resident evil 2 is japanese and while the women there are cute, Claire was vastly improved this iteration... it just bugs me that the same company doing a neat job on her also does stuff like Street fighter and DMC =_=

I still got to look up bleeding edge, haven’t had much time these days for anything haha ;-:
 

Derpot

Member
Nov 18, 2017
325
France
I think it’s more about the aesthetic being more pleasing to our audience in western games since folks go to that hollywood movie aesthetic...

Resident evil 2 is japanese and while the women there are cute, Claire was vastly improved this iteration... it just bugs me that the same company doing a neat job on her also does stuff like Street fighter and DMC =_=

I still got to look up bleeding edge, haven’t had much time these days for anything haha ;-:
My god, what they did to Lady and Trish in DMCV was bad, story-wise I mean.

As for Bleeding Edge, when it was revealed, it has an eighty-two-year-old woman (Maeve), an overweight woman (Buttercup), and a black woman (Miko), so Bleeding Edge does what Overwatch doesn't haha (not saying BE has the best diversity ever, they can always do better, but that's a good start).
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,796
I'd say women are "allowed" to be badasses in Japanese games/anime but that is often followed with a plethora of "Y so serious"/"smile a little"/"you'll never get a man being like that"/"you're so unfeminine" style of in-game (and sometimes out-of-game) commentary.
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
But it´s female noses that are going away NoirSuede. I just looked at a bunch of KyoAni promo posters and key art. I am on to them. Shakes fist. But feel free to look yourself. That said. Vinland Saga (it will take a while till prominent female characters show up again) has noticeable noses on women. Both the Persona 5 game and anime have them too. Not all is lost and Atlus of all people is fighting for my female noses. Interesting.
For some reason, in manga these days (which spills over to anime bc of adaptations) noses are only reserved for the very serious ones like Vinland Saga or Attack on Titan, all the others that still got noses are legacy franchises from the 80-90s when noses were still normal like JoJo or Baki
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
From software is a japanese studio and they did more about female character designs than most of the studios around the world, generalizing is not good folks, as bad as moe culture is, it is one (huge)market in a pool of lots of other markets in japan
Come to think of it From Software's aesthetic in general lean way more towards "western" style than the stuff native to Japan, for example the mechs in Armored Core lean more towards Battletech/MechWarrior than Gundam, there's nary a Japanese design trope in sight in Soulsborne games, and even Sekiro avoided delving too deeply into Japanese mythology refrences (a problem Magic the Gathering learned the hard way)
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
Meanwhile in Akihabara

More! Impregnate! Boobs of Flame Super Erotic App Academy (thats the actual title of the game by the way)


This thing appears to be several stories tall as well...so it can be seen for quite a distance.
Fuck the Japanese anime industry for encouraging this sort of shit man, even though Tokusatsu is very bad with female representation at least they don't pull crap like this off


EDIT: WTF at the comment section... the OP literally put up a poll that asked how the post made the reader feel, and the options are:
  • 大丈夫 (whatever): 23%
  • アウト (f*** this im outta here): 33%
  • 勃起した (erect): 45%
 
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Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,214
Come to think of it From Software's aesthetic in general lean way more towards "western" style than the stuff native to Japan, for example the mechs in Armored Core lean more towards Battletech/MechWarrior than Gundam, there's nary a Japanese design trope in sight in Soulsborne games, and even Sekiro avoided delving too deeply into Japanese mythology refrences (a problem Magic the Gathering learned the hard way)
Nah, sekiro is full on japanese aesthetics, problem is people think japan is all about moe and forget they had a whole artistic portfolio before anime was a thing. The temples, the kimono, the landscapes, sekiro is japanese af.

Can’t really blame people for forgettig that because uh
Meanwhile in Akihabara

More! Impregnate! Boobs of Flame Super Erotic App Academy (thats the actual title of the game by the way)


This thing appears to be several stories tall as well...so it can be seen for quite a distance.
Stuff like this.

But we can do better while doing criticism ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ , i really think it’s important to separate modern japan from feudal japan and only generalize when talking about the aspects they have in common, which aren’t really straightforward.
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
These things have to go through approval processes. You think many other countries' administrations would give the OK to placing... that on the street?
Even in other Japanese streets (like Shibuya) they won't be able to get away with this shit, it's just that Akihabara at this point is so inebriaded with the anime industry pretty much gets to do whatever they want.

And if you need further proof of the Japanese anime industry's disconnect with regular people:

 
Oct 31, 2017
574
I think it’s more about the aesthetic being more pleasing to our audience in western games since folks go to that hollywood movie aesthetic...

Resident evil 2 is japanese and while the women there are cute, Claire was vastly improved this iteration... it just bugs me that the same company doing a neat job on her also does stuff like Street fighter and DMC =_=

I still got to look up bleeding edge, haven’t had much time these days for anything haha ;-:
Claire was a fucking superhero in re2remake. When she just jumps down to deal with birkin. That was awesome.
 

NoirSuede

Member
Oct 25, 2017
295
How is that ok? Like for kids to see daily? Damn Japan is way too cool with sexism.
The thing is that kids don't usually go to that district (Akihabara), bc it's technically an electronic district that's really known for its anime stores (trust me I've been there once, and on one of the store's basements I saw a 12-year old's vagina 🤢 )
 

Foot

Member
Mar 10, 2019
1,896
Even in other Japanese streets (like Shibuya) they won't be able to get away with this shit, it's just that Akihabara at this point is so inebriaded with the anime industry pretty much gets to do whatever they want.

And if you need further proof of the Japanese anime industry's disconnect with regular people:

Could you sum this up? The preview image’s use of TRIGGERED makes me suspicious of this creator.
 

Weltall Zero

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,551
Madrid
Could you sum this up? The preview image’s use of TRIGGERED makes me suspicious of this creator.
Apparently the poster in the thumbnail was used by the Red Cross to ask people to donate blood. Yes, really.

The video is pretty much reactions, and reactions to the reactions, and reactions to the... you get the point. Nothing particularly interesting or surprising from what I skimmed.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,746
Actually, it seems they are allowed to be badasses as long as they are cute or sexy (Lady Maria could be considered sexy, but you know what kind of sexy I mean). There are people who consider some Touhou characters badasses for example, but the cute factor plays a big role.

It could be argued that badass characters in general have an attractive design to please the audience, but we can agree that most male characters are designed to be "cool" while most female characters need to be "sexy" or "cute".
Since we were talking about fighting games, Street Fighter V is a good example. Male characters are allowed to be fat (Birdie), very tall and thin (FANG), absolute unit (Abigail), or old (Dhalsim, Zeku), and each design is cool and badass in their own way. The female characters however, none of them are allowed to be older than forty years old, most of them have similar body types, and they're either cute or sexy. Also not allowed to wear pants lmao.
And to be honest, it's boring. Some people say "nobody wants to play ugly characters", but that's not true. They are characters who are not considered conveniently attractive that can be fun to play and have a lot of charm and personality. I'm not saying "stop making cute or sexy female characters", I'm saying "be more diverse with female characters as you are with male characters".
Give me a badass old woman like Lady Butterfly from Sekiro. Give me a creepy female character like Corrupted Monk. (Yes again with Sekiro/Soulsborne examples, but what can I say, when it's about diverse female characters, they're one of the best)
Ultimately I think this just proves my point even more. Saying, "well they can be, but caveat X and Y have to be met" is effectively saying they can't be. They aren't allowed to be what male characters are allowed to be. They're continually reconditioned and redefined until they forcibly fit into an extremely narrow viewpoint of women. These arbitrary, exogenous rules created by a male-dominated culture about beauty has led to a point where people are hurting themselves - if not mentally, then often physically, to meet standards that are intended to be unrealistic and force a group into submission through shaming when they're unable to meet them (and they could never meet them - that's the point). It's oppression, and oppression is deeply cultural.

Aside from the skirt part all of these could be said about western games as well. Every female character is at least attractive, body types never change, and having badas women over 40 years old is a very recent thing. Idk why y’all make it look like it’s a japanese only thing. It’s not like Ellie and new lara croft aren’t mase to be cute, or the uncharted ladies aren't meant to look attractive, the key difference is looking their age but that’s mostly abou aesthetics than anything.

I’m still waiting for overwatch to release another Ana or Zarya, they made 3 girls with a alight dofferent body types and a robot and called it a day

From software is a japanese studio and they did more about female character designs than most of the studios around the world, generalizing is not good folks, as bad as moe culture is, it is one (huge)market in a pool of lots of other markets in japan
You are absolutely right, but the culture of Japan has also not adopted a progressive cultural shift that is at least trying to push that needle. I agree that generalizing is bad, but it is sometimes necessary to point out larger problems that are, in the case of Japan, not just ones of a specific industry, but of a culture whose goal is the oppression of certain groups they find different (LGBTQ and women being targeted particularly). And I am not stating that it's unique to Japan (it happens in the west too, though often to other media minority groups - racism in the US in particular). South Korea has a lot of these problems too, and most other nations in the APJ region could be considered outright fascist on women's rights (similar to Bolsonaro in Brazil). That said, when we import culture we give it tacit approval (regardless of whether people are paying for the media or not), and the danger of not speaking up means there's little chance of an interpretation by those companies and cultures as anything other than approval for what they're creating. Even if we endanger the validity of our arguments when generalizing, that level of extremity may be the only way to push back against wider cultural issues (women not being admitted to colleges because of rampant misogyny in Japan is connected to culture). Even if a generalization doesn't apply to everything, if it applies to a wide margin or majority, it's worth consideration as a bigger problem. And Japan is definitely having issues with this, whether you're looking at women's treatment in the workforce or in their culture more widely.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
9,001
I still remember when I went to Akihabara and saw in the middle of the street at 5 or so a shop having a stand just plain out selling or promoting hentai stuff like if it was nothing.
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,214
Ultimately I think this just proves my point even more. Saying, "well they can be, but caveat X and Y have to be met" is effectively saying they can't be. They aren't allowed to be what male characters are allowed to be. They're continually reconditioned and redefined until they forcibly fit into an extremely narrow viewpoint of women. These arbitrary, exogenous rules created by a male-dominated culture about beauty has led to a point where people are hurting themselves - if not mentally, then often physically, to meet standards that are intended to be unrealistic and force a group into submission through shaming when they're unable to meet them (and they could never meet them - that's the point). It's oppression, and oppression is deeply cultural.


You are absolutely right, but the culture of Japan has also not adopted a progressive cultural shift that is at least trying to push that needle. I agree that generalizing is bad, but it is sometimes necessary to point out larger problems that are, in the case of Japan, not just ones of a specific industry, but of a culture whose goal is the oppression of certain groups they find different (LGBTQ and women being targeted particularly). And I am not stating that it's unique to Japan (it happens in the west too, though often to other media minority groups - racism in the US in particular). South Korea has a lot of these problems too, and most other nations in the APJ region could be considered outright fascist on women's rights (similar to Bolsonaro in Brazil). That said, when we import culture we give it tacit approval (regardless of whether people are paying for the media or not), and the danger of not speaking up means there's little chance of an interpretation by those companies and cultures as anything other than approval for what they're creating. Even if we endanger the validity of our arguments when generalizing, that level of extremity may be the only way to push back against wider cultural issues (women not being admitted to colleges because of rampant misogyny in Japan is connected to culture). Even if a generalization doesn't apply to everything, if it applies to a wide margin or majority, it's worth consideration as a bigger problem. And Japan is definitely having issues with this, whether you're looking at women's treatment in the workforce or in their culture more widely.
Generalizing is never necessary, it’s just a shortcut to avoid analizing the real issues. All generalization does is spreading hate over a culture we can barely know anything about how it really works because of language barriers... There’s a lot of gross stuff in anime, but how many people actually buy it? Is it everyone? Is it only the needy gross otaku? How do the women in japan feel about that? Are there movements trying to change it? We don’t know the answer for most of these questions but they are important to know if there are signs of change or if the industry doesn’t care.

Spreading hate won’t help, as much as it’s cool to vent about it sometimes.

I’m seeing some movement from japanese women to fight some ofthe sexist shit, hell, the sentiment is there, or eles sanrio would never dare touching stuff like Aggretsuko, problem with this, and with a lot of the media we consume today, is that this kind of positive representation needs to be presumed as marketeable... the change in western games only started when the publishers realized there was a demand for new ways of portraying women, this is the shift that needs to happen in japan. And while horny men remains being a strong market, that sort of thing will happen.

In resume, i believe is a matter of calling attention to stuff outside of that demography and how it could be stronger in japan, because the cutesy gross stuff will always seem like the only thing there is in japan if we sistemathically delete the positive stuff from our speech.

When you generalise stuff about japan you’re undermining all efforts of change that comes from there, and these efforts need help, not erasure
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,746
Generalizing is never necessary, it’s just a shortcut to avoid analizing the real issues. All generalization does is spreading hate over a culture we can barely know anything about how it really works because of language barriers... There’s a lot of gross stuff in anime, but how many people actually buy it? Is it everyone? Is it only the needy gross otaku? How do the women in japan feel about that? Are there movements trying to change it? We don’t know the answer for most of these questions but they are important to know if there are signs of change or if the industry doesn’t care.

Spreading hate won’t help, as much as it’s cool to vent about it sometimes.

I’m seeing some movement from japanese women to fight some ofthe sexist shit, hell, the sentiment is there, or eles sanrio would never dare touching stuff like Aggretsuko, problem with this, and with a lot of the media we consume today, is that this kind of positive representation needs to be presumed as marketeable... the change in western games only started when the publishers realized there was a demand for new ways of portraying women, this is the shift that needs to happen in japan. And while horny men remains being a strong market, that sort of thing will happen.

In resume, i believe is a matter of calling attention to stuff outside of that demography and how it could be stronger in japan, because the cutesy gross stuff will always seem like the only thing there is in japan if we sistemathically delete the positive stuff from our speech.

When you generalise stuff about japan you’re undermining all efforts of change that comes from there, and these efforts need help, not erasure
I strongly disagree with this. Generalizations are necessary for people to survive (we have to compartmentalize somehow), and just like everything else they serve a purpose in discourse, one that is only as negative as the presentation (though I will apologize for presenting as very "punching bag"-y to the culture). Research organizations, while they will admit that many of their generalizations are not necessarily the whole picture, still understand that they serve a purpose for promoting change. Statistical research, if nothing else, does show the power of generalization in behavioral psychology and its usefulness as a method of getting a better idea of how populaces at large will think, feel, and react to stimuli. And over time, the same work has also found that this is applicable to most research that is based in observation. Generalizations, unto themselves, do not undermine people's ability to affect change. If anything, they often strengthen them because they can become banners for problems larger and smaller than the generalizations themselves. They become a nexus of discourse - whether that discourse is negative or positive is up to the people in the discussion.
 

Lord of Ostia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,569
I was wondering, how does ERA overall feel about Persona 5? I see claims that this site is like anti-persona or fire emblem even, which I'm sure aren't valid
That's dumb, Persona 5 was voted one of the top games of 2017 here and Fire Emblem 3 Houses will likely rank highly in GOTY polls here. There is a big Fire Emblem and Persona community here.

People are willing to criticize both series here, unlike many other places on the internet. Criticism doesn't mean hate
 

Mariip

Member
Oct 26, 2017
11,214
I strongly disagree with this. Generalizations are necessary for people to survive (we have to compartmentalize somehow), and just like everything else they serve a purpose in discourse, one that is only as negative as the presentation (though I will apologize for presenting as very "punching bag"-y to the culture). Research organizations, while they will admit that many of their generalizations are not necessarily the whole picture, still understand that they serve a purpose for promoting change. Statistical research, if nothing else, does show the power of generalization in behavioral psychology and its usefulness as a method of getting a better idea of how populaces at large will think, feel, and react to stimuli. And over time, the same work has also found that this is applicable to most research that is based in observation. Generalizations, unto themselves, do not undermine people's ability to affect change. If anything, they often strengthen them because they can become banners for problems larger and smaller than the generalizations themselves. They become a nexus of discourse - whether that discourse is negative or positive is up to the people in the discussion.
It’s working as a tool of erasure in your discourse though. I’m sorry but growing up and being bombarded with animated shows in my youth, i could count in my hand the number of western characters that helped me realize that womanhood wasn’t about just looking cute and doing girl things. While our generation grew up with disney princesses doing their passive nothings, gals in japan had mononoke hime and nausicaa to draw inspiration from. While samus had been heavily sexualized even in her first appearance as a reward to players, she was a female lead in a game, how long did it take for the west to catch up with that? Or even to the level of final fantasy leads?

I only learned women could run business companies watching Cardcaptor sakura, the shows i remember the most talking about being a woman and growing up were stuff like ginger and steel braces, which were mostly about insecurities of being a girl than about the other aspects of it... We had one show about super hero girls, japan had an industry out of it, and honestly i’m lucky enough to be born in a country where the most famous comic book character is a tough girl that can pack some punches because im not sure america had someone like monica at that time .-. Shows like totally spies and stuff featuring badass women had some heavy inspiration from anime, pther european media like w.i.t.c.h. Drew a lot from magical girls series... in games we had Jill, Samus, Celes and Tifa all coming from japan and none of these from Moe.

I’ve been meaning to say this in this thread for a long while, but it really hurts me whenever people talk about japanese culture as being only an otaku cesspoll like some people in here, they don’t even like the problematic otaku in japan. But that’s not the reason why, the reason is that you’re treating a whole legacy of characters and features that, honestly, even ended up inspiring western media to be better.

We wouldn’t have Steven universe without Utena, i don’t think Lara croft would even be a thing if Samus didn’t prove herself to be markeatable, hell, even shera got anime af. There are wonderful novels and manga like The rose of Versailles and The Twelve kingdoms talking about women in ruling positions, there are manga about coming of age and learning to respect yourself, like Paradise Kiss and Vitamin. Manga like Rayearth and Fruits Basket being staples in media for young women and , hell, i could go on and on, but i feel like the west only started catching up in the last 5 or 6 years.

Manga isn’t just a porn industry, it’s a literary form that has several divisions and demographies, generalizing them by the moe kids would be like judging american press by treating all of the publications as if they were Playboy magazines, it is wrong, and its got a lot of prejudice bottled in. There are manga for young women talking about sexuality, there are adult manga talking about themes that don’t involve sex, there’s manga about LGBTQ+ people that doesnt treat them like aliens or sexualizes them(look up “my brother’s husband”), they just aren’t as loud or flash or sell as many figures as the share of the genre that does that, it’s the equivalent of that market that says cartoons should exist only to sell toys, but aimed at older people with some bad bad taste.

I’m sorry but i do owe a lot of my formation to japanese media, despite all its flaws. Had i been raised only with the western media that was availble in my childhood i’d probably not know about many amazing things a woman can do and still be waiting for a prince charming to take me away from home. Really, i’m as bummed as anyone here with the amount of loli and fanservice that’s been around some of the media that comes from japan, but i won’t go around pretending the good share of it never existed just so i can blame it on the “japanese culture” because it’s easier to think about it that way.