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Komii

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554
Sorry, very much my mistake: I didn't realize the shows you mentioned in your post were precisely the other shows in that list. You did not offend me at all, I just thought we were talking past each other, which seems like a waste of time (for both of us). In the end, I think we're just seeing this from fundamentally different perspectives: you're seeing the glass half full, and I'm seeing it half empty.

And, really, we should stop talking about anime here. I've been gently tapped in the shoulder in the past about it, with good reason (I'm kind of surprised we haven't been yet, hahah). There's actually an equivalent of this thread but about anime on the Etcetera side.
It's ok, maybe try some of the shows people here mentioned... it's just that once i saw that list i was happily surprised that stuff like shield hero, goblin slayer and the like didn't make it, sure, there's still ahady shows and crappy isekai, but even without knowing some positive shows got there, and at least half of the list, that's something i wouldn't have dreamed of years ago y'know? It doesn't erase the fact that there's a lot to improve, nor my worries that the most problematic manga in jump are the ones that will be surely turn into long running ones:/(MHA will stay for a long while, but TPN is ending soon) i'm just not as jaded as i was some years ago and wanted to make the tone better a bit, i needed to make some peace with the discourse about japan here and myself y'know?

But yeah i should tone down the anime talk and go back to think on how pointless P5R was xP i'm glad i managed to get this talk peacefully, i was afraid id push people away again and have to just drop it >_> really thought my last words to you were a bit harsh but this matter really gets me rilled up
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It's ok, maybe try some of the shows people here mentioned... it's just that once i saw that list i was happily surprised that stuff like shield hero, goblin slayer and the like didn't make it, sure, there's still ahady shows and crappy isekai, but even without knowing some positive shows got there, and at least half of the list, that's something i wouldn't have dreamed of years ago y'know? It doesn't erase the fact that there's a lot to improve, nor my worries that the most problematic manga in jump are the ones that will be surely turn into long running ones:/(MHA will stay for a long while, but TPN is ending soon) i'm just not as jaded as i was some years ago and wanted to make the tone better a bit, i needed to make some peace with the discourse about japan here and myself y'know?

But yeah i should tone down the anime talk and go back to think on how pointless P5R was xP i'm glad i managed to get this talk peacefully, i was afraid id push people away again and have to just drop it >_> really thought my last words to you were a bit harsh but this matter really gets me rilled up

All cool. :)
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
It's a habit to have to apologize for some of the, ah, abuse depicted in some of the more prominent series.
But yeah, there's a lot of variety out there, if more people would branch out of Shonen Jump anime. Or just into manga in general, since the lower barrier of entry offers a much greater variety of stories and authors.

My eternal frustration is how hard it is to get people to give magical girl shows a chance that aren't at least shonen battle adjacent (Sailor Moon) or borderline torture porn (hello Madoka).

You know you'd think Revolutionary Girl Utena would be up there given how its sword fights and lesbians and boy oh boy are their some shitbags in there but asides from a dedicated fanbase, I don't ever hear much about fans of that anime. I thought it was popular but so many people just stare at me when I start talking about it.




Aaaaaaaand pre-ordered
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
You know you'd think Revolutionary Girl Utena would be up there given how its sword fights and lesbians and boy oh boy are their some shitbags in there but asides from a dedicated fanbase, I don't ever hear much about fans of that anime. I thought it was popular but so many people just stare at me when I start talking about it.
Utena was always one of those ones I heard more about in its historical context than as itself, but these days its distributor straight up has it on their YouTube channel.
 

Komii

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554
Yay! <3

Yknow looking up the ranks made me kind of surprised of how many foreign titles the japanese consume for gaming... aside from nintendo titles a lot of them were kind of what you'd expect from a western rank...i wonder if the creepy moe games sell so many figures that they can do without selling as many copies as a big title... that is pretty unsettling, but it's the only explanation i see for the list of most sold being so similar to the west...
 

Mr_Antimatter

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,571
You know you'd think Revolutionary Girl Utena would be up there given how its sword fights and lesbians and boy oh boy are their some shitbags in there but asides from a dedicated fanbase, I don't ever hear much about fans of that anime. I thought it was popular but so many people just stare at me when I start talking about it.





Aaaaaaaand pre-ordered


To be fair, the series is decades old at this point. It always had something of a strong niche audience over all though.

I own the original, right stuf and blu Ray releases. Probably my favorite show ever.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
To be fair, the series is decades old at this point. It always had something of a strong niche audience over all though.

I own the original, right stuf and blu Ray releases. Probably my favorite show ever.

Sweet! Now let's go before-

I leave for one weekend and anime takes over huh

Oh...uh...

tenor.gif
 

NoirSuede

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
414
It's working as a tool of erasure in your discourse though. I'm sorry but growing up and being bombarded with animated shows in my youth, i could count in my hand the number of western characters that helped me realize that womanhood wasn't about just looking cute and doing girl things. While our generation grew up with disney princesses doing their passive nothings, gals in japan had mononoke hime and nausicaa to draw inspiration from. While samus had been heavily sexualized even in her first appearance as a reward to players, she was a female lead in a game, how long did it take for the west to catch up with that? Or even to the level of final fantasy leads?

I only learned women could run business companies watching Cardcaptor sakura, the shows i remember the most talking about being a woman and growing up were stuff like ginger and steel braces, which were mostly about insecurities of being a girl than about the other aspects of it... We had one show about super hero girls, japan had an industry out of it, and honestly i'm lucky enough to be born in a country where the most famous comic book character is a tough girl that can pack some punches because im not sure america had someone like monica at that time .-. Shows like totally spies and stuff featuring badass women had some heavy inspiration from anime, pther european media like w.i.t.c.h. Drew a lot from magical girls series... in games we had Jill, Samus, Celes and Tifa all coming from japan and none of these from Moe.

I've been meaning to say this in this thread for a long while, but it really hurts me whenever people talk about japanese culture as being only an otaku cesspoll like some people in here, they don't even like the problematic otaku in japan. But that's not the reason why, the reason is that you're treating a whole legacy of characters and features that, honestly, even ended up inspiring western media to be better.

We wouldn't have Steven universe without Utena, i don't think Lara croft would even be a thing if Samus didn't prove herself to be markeatable, hell, even shera got anime af. There are wonderful novels and manga like The rose of Versailles and The Twelve kingdoms talking about women in ruling positions, there are manga about coming of age and learning to respect yourself, like Paradise Kiss and Vitamin. Manga like Rayearth and Fruits Basket being staples in media for young women and , hell, i could go on and on, but i feel like the west only started catching up in the last 5 or 6 years.

Manga isn't just a porn industry, it's a literary form that has several divisions and demographies, generalizing them by the moe kids would be like judging american press by treating all of the publications as if they were Playboy magazines, it is wrong, and its got a lot of prejudice bottled in. There are manga for young women talking about sexuality, there are adult manga talking about themes that don't involve sex, there's manga about LGBTQ+ people that doesnt treat them like aliens or sexualizes them(look up "my brother's husband"), they just aren't as loud or flash or sell as many figures as the share of the genre that does that, it's the equivalent of that market that says cartoons should exist only to sell toys, but aimed at older people with some bad bad taste.

I'm sorry but i do owe a lot of my formation to japanese media, despite all its flaws. Had i been raised only with the western media that was availble in my childhood i'd probably not know about many amazing things a woman can do and still be waiting for a prince charming to take me away from home. Really, i'm as bummed as anyone here with the amount of loli and fanservice that's been around some of the media that comes from japan, but i won't go around pretending the good share of it never existed just so i can blame it on the "japanese culture" because it's easier to think about it that way.
Damn your generation grew up with Nausicca and Princess Mononoke? Makes me feel like a baby, I grew up watching Lucky Star and K-ON (also Vocaloid, but thats not anime plz)
 

Komii

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554
Damn your generation grew up with Nausicca and Princess Mononoke? Makes me feel like a baby, I grew up watching Lucky Star and K-ON (also Vocaloid, but thats not anime plz)
Lol i didn't but my friends from japanese families did, i envy them, watching totoro and mononoke while i got stuck with disney princess movies, i consider myself lucky though... i got to see mulan at the cinema, i was 6 at the time iirc...

Nahsicaa is a bit old for me but Mononoke Hime was surely airing somewhere and i never got the chance of seeing it when i was younger, it launched in 97...When lucky star was a thing i was already in my teens though hahahah god i feel old thinking some kids grew up with K-On

I wished i started gaming sooner though, could have used some ff9 in my teenage years, i watched my relatives play a hell lotta games but only started gaming by 2009... one of my first memories of that was starting ff10 and thinking "whoa this game ois lit" then changing the channel whenever mom was coming and lulu was on screen... really wtf was that dress :/
 

NoirSuede

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
414
Anyways to break up the anime discussion:

For the first time in 48 years Kamen Rider finally has their first female lead hero that can transform:
latest


But then after Episode 8
when shs secretly sicced a terminator onto the main lead
it feels like she's turning into the
"token female villain" trope, I know it's not something to worry about but it's just that since she's the first one it kinda makes it look bad
 

Frida Kahlo

Member
Apr 16, 2018
26
That sort of book only started showing up in Brazil once harry potter kicked in, before that young adult novels were pretty sparse... at least the ones i liked reading lol.

We do have Monica's gang which features a girl who gets teased by some guys that want to steal her bunny through convolutes schemes, but they always end up being found out and beaten up because she's too strong, so i had anime and that xD
Monica's Gang (loved Magali and Cascão) and Darkwing Duck (Maga a.k.a Magica De Spell still my girl) were my favorite comics growing up!!
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!
 

Komii

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!

Oh no, they found out the hidden Ace agenda!

This is so shitty lmao
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,809


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!

Shouldn't have read the comments to that tweet
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!

Nothing like the "See how progressive qualities were our downfall?" trope. There was another game discussed here that did that too wasn't there?
 

Kinsei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
20,536
I really wonder how Kojima came to be known as some visionary auteur. Like Metal Gear is fun, but what the hell is up with the idol worship? It's not even a Konami martyr thing, I was seeing it long before he got sacked.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000


<>

.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!


When I heard that Hideo Kojima had A Take on asexuality, I was bracing for the worst, but that still managed to be worse than I imagined it would be.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
The thing about that "Asexual World" interview is that it comes after what is probably the most awkward romance I've ever seen take place in a piece of media

You never learn their actual names, the jerk dude constantly refers to his love interest as "my girl", plays pretty creepy hologram recordings of her to random strangers, and then the second they reunite after implied years of never seeing each other they decide to get married. The guy also suddenly becomes a good guy who is eager to help out, despite basically being willing to let the world rot 5 minutes beforehand and deliberately sending Sam on a suicide mission.

I had no idea how to interpret it until I got the asexuality shaming thing, so I guess it was supposed to be a moment of rejoicing because, hey, look at how magical heterosexuality is!

the only good thing about the entire scene was the woman giving a thumbs up and it popping up little holographic "like" hearts
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
I really wonder how Kojima came to be known as some visionary auteur. Like Metal Gear is fun, but what the hell is up with the idol worship? It's not even a Konami martyr thing, I was seeing it long before he got sacked.

If you ask about auteurs in gaming on Era, most answers tend to be Japanese creators (Kojima, Miyazaki, Nomura and Ueda come up most frequently). I wonder if there's a style of management or marketing in Japan that ties game series inextricably to a singular creator, in a way that isn't as common elsewhere. Or maybe it's due to Era's greater focus on Japanese media compared to other gaming forums.
 

Zelda

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,079


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!

I'm a bit confused. If hypothetically asexuality did in fact go up in society, why wouldn't that reduce sexual assaults? Asexuality means no interest in sex or sexual things right? Regular assaults and violence would surely be unaffected, but to me the frequency of assaults that are sexual in nature being decreased makes sense if more people are asexual.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
9,928
Spain


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!


Oh my god, this is TERRIBLE.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I'm a bit confused. If hypothetically asexuality did in fact go up in society, why wouldn't that reduce sexual assaults? Asexuality means no interest in sex or sexual things right? Regular assaults and violence would surely be unaffected, but to me the frequency of assaults that are sexual in nature being decreased makes sense if more people are asexual.
Sexual assault and abuse is about power, not necessarily sexual desire.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I'm a bit confused. If hypothetically asexuality did in fact go up in society, why wouldn't that reduce sexual assaults? Asexuality means no interest in sex or sexual things right? Regular assaults and violence would surely be unaffected, but to me the frequency of assaults that are sexual in nature being decreased makes sense if more people are asexual.

Sexual assault is more often than not about power and control rather than just plain sex desire (not said by me but by psychiatric studies).
 

HockeyBird

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,588
I really wonder how Kojima came to be known as some visionary auteur. Like Metal Gear is fun, but what the hell is up with the idol worship? It's not even a Konami martyr thing, I was seeing it long before he got sacked.

It's because his writing is one step above the average videogame and that's because most videogames aren't invested in characters and story as he is. He definitely does bring up some interesting themes and has memorable characters, but he often undermines both and he writes himself into corners. It's best to enjoy his work because of the crazy scenarios and stories he can come up, not because of some deeper meaning that Kojima is failing to convey. But because game writing standards are low, just a hint of something deeper is enough for people to label him as a genius. And I say all this as someone who has enjoyed his stories in the past, more so because of the outlandish nature of them.
 

Zelda

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,079
Sexual assault and abuse is about power, not necessarily sexual desire.
Sexual assault is more often than not about power and control rather than just plain sex desire (not said by me but by psychiatric studies).
Right I get that, but isn't it far more likely that an asexual person would pursue that power through regular violence / assault vs assault that is sexual in nature? People who commit sexual assaults are certainly doing it for power, but there must also be an underlying sexual perversion within their minds too imo. To me it makes sense that someone who has no interest in sex would veer closer to other means of exerting power/abuse.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,415
The English Wilderness
I really wonder how Kojima came to be known as some visionary auteur. Like Metal Gear is fun, but what the hell is up with the idol worship? It's not even a Konami martyr thing, I was seeing it long before he got sacked.
MGS hit at just the right time to reach a demographic who wanted to prove that Video Games were Art, and that they themselves were Really Very Clever.

You must have seen it in other mediums, right? That point in the mid-to-late teens? "X is really good, but it's too clever for normal people!"
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,288
Right I get that, but isn't it far more likely that an asexual person would pursue that power through regular violence / assault vs assault that is sexual in nature? People who commit sexual assaults are certainly doing it for power, but there must also be an underlying sexual perversion within their minds too imo. To me it makes sense that someone who has no interest in sex would veer closer to other means of exerting power/abuse.
Violence, sexual or not, is typically expressed as a result of a compulsion or protection mechanism. Violence is going to be expressed by some people regardless of sexuality or identity, and suddenly having more people with less sex drive is extremely unlikely to shift that needle. They would likely express violence differently, but if they were sexually violent in the past, it's unlikely an individual being sexually violent would change, because the compulsion is violent and involves sex as an expression of that violence.

If the "Death Stranding" event caused a drop in violence or violent tendencies, that would likely shift the needle, but it's not a result of sexuality or asexuality.

More straightforwardly, a serial rapist is not going to change their ways because of a drop in sexual drive, because rape for them is an expression of power and control over another person; rape is the act that lets them feel that power and control.
 
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Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,262
If you ask about auteurs in gaming on Era, most answers tend to be Japanese creators (Kojima, Miyazaki, Nomura and Ueda come up most frequently). I wonder if there's a style of management or marketing in Japan that ties game series inextricably to a singular creator, in a way that isn't as common elsewhere. Or maybe it's due to Era's greater focus on Japanese media compared to other gaming forums.
I think the big western auteurs just haven't released stuff recently so they're not in the conversation. Tim Schafer, Peter Molyneux, David Cage? Like, haven't heard people referencing Ueda recently but it'll pop up if Team ICO announces something.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
What really gets me about this, besides the hilariously offensive attempt to connect asexuality to a blatant analogue of Japan's declining birth and marriage rates, is the all the dehumanizing and delegitimizing language when it tries to describe orientations. "sexless lifestyle", "self-identify as", "claiming to be incapable of feeling", "profess an attraction". This is language that you use when you want to distance yourself from statements you're presenting, to make it clear that you're just relating how other people say they feel and that you don't necessarily agree. It presents the legitimacy of these orientations as something that's up for debate by doing so.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,127
What really gets me about this, besides the hilariously offensive attempt to connect asexuality to a blatant analogue of Japan's declining birth and marriage rates, is the all the dehumanizing and delegitimizing language when it tries to describe orientations. "sexless lifestyle", "self-identify as", "claiming to be incapable of feeling", "profess an attraction". This is language that you use when you want to distance yourself from statements you're presenting, to make it clear that you're just relating how other people say they feel and that you don't necessarily agree. It presents the legitimacy of these orientations as something that's up for debate by doing so.
I am not a counselor so I might be wrong, but isn't that how they're supposed to keep logs? I would think they'd record their patients' statements as personal testimonies. Again I may be wrong.
 

Vee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,554
I got a vid in my youtube reccomendations of a youtuber complaining about people complaining about Hilde in SC6. He seems to really hate era though as he just spends the video making fun of era posters who hate the boobplate and his comment section completely misses the point on why ppl are upset.

Most of the comments are like "SJWs are mad because boobs exist", or "yall were quiet about cassandra but now Hildes all of a sudden a problem". When none of the arguments were about Hildes boobs existing, they are about how hilde is the rare exception of a strong female design in the SC series and they betrayed the integrity of her design. As far as im concerned getting upset over cassandra, Taki or Ivys design is a losing battle anyway. But how do you miss the point so hard? Not one comment was upset because hilde has breast but thats why they say "puritans" are getting so fed up. And of course the uploader just liked every comment that agrees with himself.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,262
I got a vid in my youtube reccomendations of a youtuber complaining about people complaining about Hilde in SC6. He seems to really hate era though as he just spends the video making fun of era posters who hate the boobplate and his comment section completely misses the point on why ppl are upset.

Most of the comments are like "SJWs are mad because boobs exist", or "yall were quiet about cassandra but now Hildes all of a sudden a problem". When none of the arguments were about Hildes boobs existing, they are about how hilde is the rare exception of a strong female design in the SC series and they betrayed the integrity of her design. As far as im concerned getting upset over cassandra, Taki or Ivys design is a losing battle anyway. But how do you miss the point so hard? Not one comment was upset because hilde has breast but thats why they say "puritans" are getting so fed up. And of course the uploader just liked every comment that agrees with himself.
Man, the moment I suspect anti-SJW sentiments, I bail out. It may be unfair to assume they're grifters catering to an audience and have a vested interest in exaggerating or misrepresenting an argument and it may be valuable to understand that people really do feel this way and find these arguments reasonable but it's just exhausting to think about how there's dozens of other Youtubers selling the same schlock because the audience for it provides millions of views.
 

Vee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,554
Man, the moment I suspect anti-SJW sentiments, I bail out. It may be unfair to assume they're grifters catering to an audience and have a vested interest in exaggerating or misrepresenting an argument and it may be valuable to understand that people really do feel this way and find these arguments reasonable but it's just exhausting to think about how there's dozens of other Youtubers selling the same schlock because the audience for it provides millions of views.
I knew what i was getting into with that comment section and ive seen this guys channel pop up before bit i was just curious how they were going to defend the boobplate which seemed to ignore the actual point and make it solely about boobs. These people really don't think a male gaze exists.
 

Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,262
I knew what i was getting into with that comment section and ive seen this guys channel pop up before bit i was just curious how they were going to defend the boobplate which seemed to ignore the actual point and make it solely about boobs. These people really don't think a male gaze exists.
Yeah, I just assume it's an argument in bad faith and there's view count incentive to make the argument that way.
 

NathanS

Member
Dec 5, 2017
450


EI9SJqGWkAA_Wyf


.....HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHaaaaa....Seriously? It's actually worse then I thought? Not only lumping asexuality, demisexuality and others into a "this is a sign that something's wrong in the worls", apparently because no one's sexually active, sexual assault has gone down! Because that's how that works!



What.

Why did Waypoint mention NONE of this outside of the "asexual come from people being emotionally distant" thing?
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,275
i support aces destroying worlds created by kojima, you did it kings and queens and non-binary monarchs!
 
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