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Rouk'

Member
Jan 10, 2018
8,134
Well to be honest, old Fire Emblem armour is worst compare to the new armour, realistic speaking, yea the new armour are sexier but AT LEAST have some real protection (in the case of Cherche, yes the back is not cover but all the front is cover in metal protecting his organs when in the case of Jill...all the soft belly and arms are completed exposed soo... is really bad) Also leather is NO armour (there are rare occasions that it was but normally it have 0 protection against cutting and trusting).

The worst armor in Fire Emblems is the Pegasus Knight (if it can be called armor) really you are charging against the enemy in that?
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You only protect the breast area? Why you are using a skirt in a battle? How is that is non-sexualized design? Fire Emblem always have sexuality character. Now at least have some decency to search and use real armor (like Gambeson and not leather, after Fates you see them using padding clothes that can even stop arrows) Yes i know it is inspire in ancient Greek but still.

Just because is not sexy it do not mean is practical armor. There are no female armor because there were not female warriors in antiquity, only 1% of the warrior (AKA professional solders) could have being women and they probably use what all men were using and that is layer after layer of linen, metal rings and metal plate. After you put all this armor they lost the feminine shape and it will be look like any other other solder. That is why the designer make them without real armor to say "hey it is a women".


I will defend Tharja, she has a good design (all of Plegia have good design in my opinion) it is inspire of Egyptian paintings. The male and female solder of Plegia (the sorceress) does. So if you defend the old stile of old Fire Emblem based old Greek Mythology style then what is wrong with a new design based on old Egyptian style? Is the only new and interesting element of Awakening (that go to trash with the writing of the story and the fan service personality of Tharja). I am not saying it is not over sexualized but at least she add something new and interesting to the series (not like Camila) .
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The thing is, do you think her designer chose to dress her like that because they wanted to create a character with these particular egyptian inspirations ? Or was it because they thought it was a good excuse to make a sexualised character ?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Just because is not sexy it do not mean is practical armor. There are no female armor because there were not female warriors in antiquity, only 1% of the warrior (AKA professional solders) could have being women and they probably use what all men were using and that is layer after layer of linen, metal rings and metal plate. After you put all this armor they lost the feminine shape and it will be look like any other other solder. That is why the designer make them without real armor to say "hey it is a women".


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If this was true it says a lot of how much designers think the players are capable of thinking.

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"Oh shit!!! is a man? a woman? HOW CAN I KNOW?!!!"

No really, it makes no sense, same as how it makes no sense that women need to have "feminine" armor.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,096
I wanna know what this thread's room's opinion is on that recent Bayonetta thread

the one where there was a poll of whether she should strip or not in the next game
 

ImNotAFroot

Member
Nov 6, 2017
295
It also accentues the idea of a fantasy world, by having characters with exotic clothes that you don't see in real life. They are not realistic and that's the intention. I think it helps to make everything more epic too.
That's a new one

Anyways, great posts guys!
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Just because is not sexy it do not mean is practical armor. There are no female armor because there were not female warriors in antiquity, only 1% of the warrior (AKA professional solders) could have being women and they probably use what all men were using and that is layer after layer of linen, metal rings and metal plate. After you put all this armor they lost the feminine shape and it will be look like any other other solder. That is why the designer make them without real armor to say "hey it is a women".
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To you and every other gamer and/or misguided character designer who believes the bolded in the quote is true.

It's not that hard. You are creating a solution for a design issue that doesn't actually exist.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
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To you and every other gamer and/or misguided character designer who believes the bolded in the quote is true.

It's not that hard. You are creating a solution for a design issue that doesn't actually exist.

But...I can't tell! My penis doesn't get hard when looking at them!!! HOW CAN I TELL IF I CAN'T GET IT OFF!!???!!!?!??!

/s
 

Ho_su

Member
Oct 28, 2017
62
El Salvador
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To you and every other gamer and/or misguided character designer who believes the bolded in the quote is true.

It's not that hard. You are creating a solution for a design issue that doesn't actually exist.

Nice fantasy armour and very cool designs especially the last one is perfect. But i am talking true historical armour if you will go to battle and you go with a helmet you are nuts so you go with a helmet, If she is a women you probably would notice it until she speak. Still with a Sallet helmet you could notice it :D but no designer use Sallet helmets D: actually no one use helmets in video games. Also in reality 90% of the equipment of videogames/anime/series is just wrong and can be called fantasy (a Spartan warrior with out a shield in that armour? you are begin to get chop off).

Normally in the industry try to use "boobs armour" or add more curves to make it more feminine and that make it less effective armour. Heck even "special armour" for male protagonist is so wrong, in real life logic. And personally i don´t like that.

Riddle me this: how am I supposed to know it's a man when his full body armor is covering his dick?
Simple, hit it with a hammer in the balls the reaction will tell you. And if it kick your butt and is a women then is a exceptional women. Also not knowing the gender of a hero is a trait that can make interesting a character, example Sammus.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Because that is what the majority of people would expect from a soldier/warrior? Particularly in pre-modern times? I suppose technically you can't know, but that's what most people will assume.
This brings me back to part of the reasons why I like the Dragon Prince so much. In that world, no one bats an eye at women being dressed in armor, women are guards too. There's nothing immersion breaking about it, it's just a normalized. Peeps act like doing or seeing that is the hardest thing in the world.

Nice fantasy armour and very cool designs especially the last one is perfect. But i am talking true historical armour if you will go to battle and you go with a helmet you are nuts so you go with a helmet, If she is a women you probably would notice it until she speak. Still with a Sallet helmet you could notice it :D but no designer use Sallet helmets D: actually no one use helmets in video games. Also in reality 90% of the equipment of videogames/anime/series is just wrong and can be called fantasy (a Spartan warrior with out a shield in that armour? you are begin to get chop off).
Most games go for stylized depictions of "true historical armor." just like they go for stylized depictions of actual weapons.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
Finale's post had me like woah... I particularly appreciated the violence comparison takedown.

Also "how can you tell what their gender is?" -- Does it matter? Ask the dev or pay attention to the game. Even the most femininely beautiful of men are usually defined as men in game. Similarly more plain, androgynous, or masculine women would likely be noted to be women. S'not hard. Words are things.

Side note, as she was brought up, Tharja makes me sad. I think she's a genuinely interesting character, and the fact several of my girl friends have huge crushes on her confirms that to me, but her design sort of waters that down as it really has nothing to do with her characterization of being a reclusive, grumpy sorceress. FEH and merch further sexualizing her and making her even more Robin-centric doesn't help either.

But I guess that could extend to a lot of Awakening and Fates female characters. :V IS really needs to stop telling their character designers to be so horny. It even crept into Echoes....
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
The English Wilderness
Side note, as she was brought up, Tharja makes me sad. I think she's a genuinely interesting character, and the fact several of my girl friends have huge crushes on her confirms that to me, but her design sort of waters that down as it really has nothing to do with her characterization of being a reclusive, grumpy sorceress. FEH and merch further sexualizing her and making her even more Robin-centric doesn't help either.
A reclusive, grumpy sorcerer...who has a creepy obsession with the player avatar that ultimately consumes her entire character, iirc.
 

Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
A reclusive, grumpy sorcerer...who has a creepy obsession with the player avatar that ultimately consumes her entire character, iirc.
Fair due. I'm going to be honest and say I don't really recall her obsession with Robin coming up much outside of conversations involving Robin and a few of her S-ranks where she subtly implies to flat out says that she's still in love with Robin (which I agree is really fuckin' stupid). But maybe I'm just remembering incorrectly and letting my experience with my friends color my recollection. Given my predeliction to engage with fanworks sometimes more than the original game, I really wouldn't be shocked.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
It's not gaming-related, but my girlfriend and I have been watching the entirety of Vikings, and the show does so incredibly well at showing women kick ass. We can't get enough of it. And they get to kill men, not just other women. One of my big pet peeves is when women are allowed to be badass, but only in combat against other women as if they were in a league below men still. Not the case in this show, and men fight women and women fight men, and often the women come out of it victorious. One of the mains, Lagertha, might as well be the most badass woman - no, character period - in all of TV. I highly recommend the show in context of this page's discussion.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Always inspiring (and awe-inspiring) to see Finale Fireworker laying down the facts with that divine eloquence, holy shit!

but mainly no one took them serious and no one think that someone could interpret them as a vehicle for people to get the idea that because of them it means real women are nothing else than "things to have sex with"

The ignorance (or denial) required to write something like this is astounding. Europe is every bit as sexist as the US; CDProjekt's ingrained corporate sexism issues have been thoroughly exposed; and "it's immature so nobody takes it seriously so it doesn't promote sexism" is such a bullshit chain of reasoning you should, frankly, be ashamed of yourself.

P.S. I'm one of those people who don't mind the cards in the first Witcher game

Wow, you're OK with cards that don't sexualize your own gender? Congratulations on being part of such distinguished and open-minded group!

I am not ok with that, because revenge is never a solution, balance is the only option.

Yeah mate, the point is that it would take 20 years of non-stop sexualized males to "balance" the volume of works of each. Of course, as Finale said, "balance" is a shitty solution nobody asked for (more crucially, it's not a realistic situation in any sense, which is highly convenient for those that don't want to stop seeing women treated as objects).
 

NoName999

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,906
Side note, as she was brought up, Tharja makes me sad. I think she's a genuinely interesting character, and the fact several of my girl friends have huge crushes on her confirms that to me, but her design sort of waters that down as it really has nothing to do with her characterization of being a reclusive, grumpy sorceress. FEH and merch further sexualizing her and making her even more Robin-centric doesn't help either.


Hell, Tharja's design doesn't even make sense as someone who lives in a desert.

For starters, wearing skin tight clothing? Congrats on the heat stroke because tight clothing restricts air flow that cools you off. And since it's a see through outfit, there's also the issue of sunburn.

And that's just during the day, because she's wearing so little clothing, she'll freeze at night.

Wearing all that metal on her is just as silly. Oops, it absorbs heat, now you're even hotter around your head, your wrist, and whatever body part that's housing a metal item. Also the metal, along with the cape, can't be light. So she's now weighed down and has to use more energy to move. Which again, she lives in a desert, so it's dangerous.

Libra joins on the same chapter and he was wearing an outfit that's more suitable for a desert. Baggy, covers you up. Granted there's still the metal problem, but he's more likely to live longer than Tharja.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,287
São Paulo - Brazil
It's not gaming-related, but my girlfriend and I have been watching the entirety of Vikings, and the show does so incredibly well at showing women kick ass. We can't get enough of it. And they get to kill men, not just other women. One of my big pet peeves is when women are allowed to be badass, but only in combat against other women as if they were in a league below men still. Not the case in this show, and men fight women and women fight men, and often the women come out of it victorious. One of the mains, Lagertha, might as well be the most badass woman - no, character period - in all of TV. I highly recommend the show in context of this page's discussion.

Make sure to check The Last Kingdom. There aren't probably as much female warriors as Vikings, but they are certainly memorable. And if you don't mind something a little (maybe more than a little) different, you'll find that in Spartacus as well.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
It's not gaming-related, but my girlfriend and I have been watching the entirety of Vikings, and the show does so incredibly well at showing women kick ass. We can't get enough of it. And they get to kill men, not just other women. One of my big pet peeves is when women are allowed to be badass, but only in combat against other women as if they were in a league below men still. Not the case in this show, and men fight women and women fight men, and often the women come out of it victorious. One of the mains, Lagertha, might as well be the most badass woman - no, character period - in all of TV. I highly recommend the show in context of this page's discussion.

Gotta watch Vikings sometime. We may switch to it once we finish this season of Better Call Saul.

Probably not to that extent, but I was pleasantly surprised at the amazing badassery of Sypha in Castlevania's second season. Considering she's both the heart of the party and the squishy mage in robes whose compations are a Belmont vampire hunter and a half-vampire, she still manages to out-badass them in many situations and is every bit of a terrifying force of nature to the creatures of the night as they are. That she's not sexualized at all (that I could realize, at least) in a series known for being otherwise pretty edgy (violence, gore, swearing and no pointless nudity is not a combination you often see, especially in animation) was also really great. I was warily expecting for them to screw it up at some point, but they didn't.

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Oct 13, 2018
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To you and every other gamer and/or misguided character designer who believes the bolded in the quote is true.

It's not that hard. You are creating a solution for a design issue that doesn't actually exist.

Long hair probably isn't a good idea in melee combat and I'm seeing a lot of it even in thread examples. It's just something to yank at or hold onto to restrict movement while looking for gaps in armor to stick a dagger into. Hell, it's not a good idea around tools or machinery in general.

That last image is a great example though. It's also fairly gender neutral and doesn't try to signal boost the fact that the subject is a woman like the others do.
 

y2kyle89

Member
Mar 16, 2018
9,490
Mass
A reclusive, grumpy sorcerer...who has a creepy obsession with the player avatar that ultimately consumes her entire character, iirc.
What's funny about that is I had Chrom recruit her and she only really grouped together with the cleric guy from the same map. When the cleric guy and her got married her mentioning being obsessed with me came out of left field.
 

Azem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,001
"but without titties, how will i know its a woman???" Or, as I like to call it, the League of Legends defence.

I'm curious as to why "balance" exclusively means "treat men the same as women". Is there something about this scale that prevents, say, women being treated the same as men? Or am I supposed to believe that men would rather sell out themselves for video game babes than respect women?
 

Snormy

I'll think about it
On Break
Oct 25, 2017
5,114
Morizora's Forest
I've been playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey and Kassandra is the best. It reminds me of the characters in For Honor, while For Honor has all the designs it remains predominantly a competitive game and the focus on characterization isn't quite up to par. Back to ACO though, this is probably the best AC I've played. I dropped off the series since Unity and while I did somewhat enjoy Black Flag I wasn't as taken in as most. Odyssey though blew me away in a lot of ways. I think Kassandra is great, I think some of the dialogue choices are a bit odd, I generally don't like how some choices are given in a very binary kill/mercy sort of fashion but I guess it makes sense for the game and all.

A reclusive, grumpy sorcerer...who has a creepy obsession with the player avatar that ultimately consumes her entire character, iirc.

From what I remember, which is admittedly not a whole lot I think the creepy obsession with Robin is her most prominent personality but also her weakest. I seem to remember somewhat liking her other interactions, something about family baggage that she had to escape, her penchant for curses and peculiar magics and ultimately just being a little creepy in a "evil plotting witch" kind of way. I think most of the FE characters can stand to be more fleshed out from a personality front and I somewhat wonder what these characters would be like in an actual lengthy RPG type game.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I was surprised to see Humble Bundle making a Stardock software bundle:
https://www.humblebundle.com/software/stardock-software-bundle
You might remember Stardock as the extremely shitty company that is trying to shut down the creators of Star Control from making a sequel, and whose CEO is not only a prominent GamerGate supporter but has also hired Adam Baldwin, notorious misogynist arsehole that spews endless alt-right tirades on Twitter and and literally the person who came up with the GamerGate hashtag:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/st...amergate-actor-in-star-control-origins.61986/
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Humble are owned by ign now btw.

So am i thr only one playing darksiders 3? Early on so far and Fury is a neat character. Granted she falls under the trope of being a blood knight that merely desires the joy of battle but i hadnt seen anything majorly offensive so far.
Well id agree about the boob armor i just reinvision her chest plate being less silly.looking in my mind :v
 
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Booga

Alt account
Banned
Sep 15, 2018
937
this thread is great for weeding out the dickheads. :p
I'm pretty sure this thread is bumped for that exact purpose. I have read through it a few times. Basically same story every time. Poor unsuspecting sod walks in, makes the argument that men are sexualized too, gets perma-banned. Rinse and repeat.

I guess it's a decent litmus test for a forum that wants a particular mindset in its users. Though, I wouldn't say every user who has a differing opinions is a dickhead. I can understand a few different views on this topic that have been presented here. And I can see some serious dude-bros making men look terrible with their ignorance. In the end they all get banned anyway. I just come in here to enjoy a good read, a good laugh, and keep my opinions to myself :)
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Yeah it's pretty funny how Era wants their users to have a basic understanding of feminism and how it expects them to actually listen to women and show some empathy before spouting some ignorant shit. What a weird echo chamber™, huh.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Yeah, it just seemed like an odd company for them to jump into bed with for a promotion.
There is the possibilty that they didnt know about the accusations but i went and checked the bundle and you can choose where your payment goes so you could have all of what you pay not go to stardock ;p just scroll down snd you will see s tab to choose to which chariry all ypur paymwnt goes to.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
After you put all this armor they lost the feminine shape and it will be look like any other other solder.

People keep saying this, and all I am reading is "I, Ho_su, have no idea what women look like, since I never interact with one". I know, because in real life, you'll interact with women that "don't wear clothes showing their feminine shape" all the time, and yet oddly, there's not much confusion.

Except when certain male gamers are involved. Says a lot about this kind of gamer, I'd think.

Some of my coworkers would cause your head to explode.

the one where there was a poll of whether she should strip or not in the next game

Well, considering I think Bayonetta is a terrible character and that the "but she owns her sexuality" angle is bogus to begin with, I'd say "She probably shouldn't, but she will, because the only people the company making these games care about is male gamers", so.

Well id agree about the boob armor i just reinvision her chest plate being less silly.looking in my mind :v

It's wacky, but for a game character, she actually looks fine to me. I'll probably play that game. Not the best, but.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Just keep in mind thst the pc ver is so far the best one in terms of performance at least from what ive read online.
I havr an old rig that has a gtx 970m card and the game runs well at 60 fps much of the time.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Yeah it's pretty funny how Era wants their users to have a basic understanding of feminism and how it expects them to actually listen to women and show some empathy before spouting some ignorant shit. What a weird echo chamber™, huh.
The irony is that most of the people who refuse to listen are in their own echo chamber. The difference is largely about having a moral compass versus letting someone else determine it for you. In my experiences with these people at college, it's not about being right or wrong, it's about not having to make a decision and not having to take personal responsibility or change.

We fight for liberty of thought and they pursue, rabidly, an end to it.

edit: A great example of this is the gun lobby (NRA) in America. They will never ask their base to consider regulation of weapons that cause tens of thousands of deaths each year. They are only focused on denying the state any ability to change, and if possible to regress, as they are not concerned about who gets hurt in the process of them getting what they want.

It is a sort of sociopathy, and it is motivated by a lack of consideration of perspective from outside. And the assurance of, "you don't have to do anything, you don't have to change" is very tempting, particularly for those who are privileged.

Again, it's about not having to think, not having to care about others. Because having to do that scares the shit out of them. Because it means they have to take some ownership of their actions, and can no longer say, "The devil made me do it!"
 
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Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Funny little thing i did in darksiders 3; there is an old women vs tropes in gaming cideo wherein somw games the camera wont let you view your character's butt, esp if they are male. If theyre female you could move the camera so you cou see their butt.

Now for some reason that video came to mind and i wanted to see qhat this game does if u moved the camera under Fury: the camera could clip through her and show you the sky or ceiling xp.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
How come people with backwards views always say "a women". Like it has to be one of the first things you learn in english as a foreign speaker.
I'm starting to think it's intentional.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
The perils of this industry. Another thread brought this up again, so...what are everyone's thoughts on Shanoa?

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Keep in mind that...
-Yep, thighboots, because of course
-She's also fully bareback, because she breath errr - absorbs enemy magic through a rune on her back ( https://www.squarepalace.com/sites/...x675/public/tests/6312/6312.jpg?itok=AOHLLJi5 )

Is this terrible design? Is this a bad "sexy because woman" design? Is this a good "sexy" design? Is it neither?

She keeps making me think conflicting things. What do y'all think?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
The perils of this industry. Another thread brought this up again, so...what are everyone's thoughts on Shanoa?

latest


Keep in mind that...
-Yep, thighboots, because of course
-She's also fully bareback, because she breath errr - absorbs enemy magic through a rune on her back ( https://www.squarepalace.com/sites/...x675/public/tests/6312/6312.jpg?itok=AOHLLJi5 )

Is this terrible design? Is this a bad "sexy because woman" design? Is this a good "sexy" design? Is it neither?

She keeps making me think conflicting things. What do y'all think?
I'm similarly conflicted. I like the normal breastplate but don't understand the combo with bare shoulders- what's holding it in place if not shoulder straps/harness? I'm also aware it shouldn't be cause for great praise just for not putting boob sockets in armour plates, and it's not like they didn't sexualise other elements instead.

The dress slit to the waist to show off black stockings under plated greaves, so we get a flash of exposed thigh as she moved around seems so 'generic game character design' in contrast with the period high collar (the lacy detail of which also appears on the trim of her sleeves) and ribbon that I really like.

I like the flowing dress matching the flowing hair, it's a sort of vertical symmetry that I've commented on before with another character.

I like the colour scheme, the red on the inside of her blue dress, the blue ribbon that matches her blue eyes, and black glossy armour/boots paired with her black hair. A touch of gold as a trim colour. It's a strong, cohesive palette rather than an overdesigned one.

All in all there's stuff I like in terms of character design as a whole, both the stronger elements and the detail. However, some elements of the outfit/design seem conflicted where the palette, silhouette and symmetry seem cohesive.

The less said about the exposed back only visable in gameplay the better. It's only to massively increase the skin percentage on show rather than the breastplate when using 50% of your attacks, depending on what you assign to left and right hand it shows her front or back. It's a shame that Miriam in Bloodstained seems to take some of the weakest parts of Shanoa's design rather than the strongest.

Not the worst female mage/knight/adventurer I've ever seen, but, much like 'most progressive gaming forum', that's again damning with faint praise considering what makes up much of the rest of the field.

I do love the game though. I'm also eternally surprised she didn't end up with a boobplate. Maybe that's the difference between 2009 and 2018 :D
 
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Booga

Alt account
Banned
Sep 15, 2018
937
Yeah it's pretty funny how Era wants their users to have a basic understanding of feminism and how it expects them to actually listen to women and show some empathy before spouting some ignorant shit. What a weird echo chamber™, huh.
Is that funny? Not sure about that. Expecting empathy from people on the internet, I guess that's funny. Too much anonymity to hide behind to get much of that.

Though I'd say, in an ideal world, it would be reasonable to expect all of these things. Sigh.

:)
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,029
Is this terrible design? Is this a bad "sexy because woman" design? Is this a good "sexy" design? Is it neither?

She keeps making me think conflicting things. What do y'all think?
I'd agree with redcrayon in that the devs didn't have enough SexyPoints to fill the character with sexy tropes and cliches in 2009 that devs in the late 90s or today have.

As to an actually good sexy design, it needs to have actual, legit emotion and character behind it, not some shit, flimsy excuse of a tale and character that's as bland as Thanksgiving turkey.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
This is not a solution to the issue. This doesn't acknowledge or remedy the issue in any capacity whatsoever.

Most major visual industries (gaming, television, and cinema) are male-dominated industries. This pertains to both who is creating the media (where men are writing, directing, and designing the content), and who the media is created for, which often caters specifically to male consumption and point of view. Most media is written by men, for men, and media meant for women has historically been regarded as its own genre (the "chick flick", so to speak). This means that the male point of view is the dominant, neutral, point of reference. In this sense, women must learn to appreciate art on men's terms or create their own art. When they do create their own art, it is often underappreciated or relegated to genre because a woman's point of view is often not taken seriously.

What this means in reference to your statement above is that most media produced is going to be produced by men, for men, and because of the sexism most men have internalized, their art is going to either exclude women entirely or make them sex objects. At best, male creators won't even think to include women in their stories because male critics and audiences will laud them anyway (just look at Martin Scorsese). Because their media is consumed principally by male audiences they will not be challenged on the fact their media contains virtually no women at all. This is because - again - a female perspective is niche and not important. What you get instead is an extremely narrow male perspective on what women are or should be.

Comfortable people don't complain and men are not usually the ones made uncomfortable. If they are, they have other options, because media has prioritized them for thousands upon thousands of years. Women do not have these same options. Men are depicted differently across every genre and medium and never are men at a shortage of ways to see themselves depicted. Women do not have this luxury and never have.

In most media, women are either victimized (murdered as an inciting incident, or kidnapped if you want to be generous) or idealized (sexy eye candy who pine for the main character or tease the male viewer with sex appeal). Rarely have women been portrayed with any depth, realism, or meaning other than how in danger or how hot they are. This means women do not have other options to choose when they find a sexualized depiction distasteful.

Sexualizing men does not improve the status quo of how women are depicted in media. It ignores the problem completely. This flawed sense of pragmatism doesn't do anything to improve media inclusivity. You are proposing a solution that nobody asked for to a problem you are not acknowledging.

Because the truth is: if women had as many options to choose from as men did, this thread would not exist.

Depiction of women in general has improved over the last decade and picked up steam in Gaming in the wake of eye-opening hate movements like GamerGate. This is a situation that is getting better, but it is not fixed, and it did not get better automatically. It improved because a lot of women complained. It improved because some men listened. It improved because people realized broader and healthier depictions of all types of people is a moral compulsion that should be satisfied and, if nothing else, is good for business. Ten years ago, if women's complaints for how they were represented in media was answered with "increasing male sexualization" literally none of their concerns would have been addressed and we would not be where we are today.

Furthermore, the cop-out that sexualizing men somehow makes sexualizing women better doesn't do anything to make media more appealing to women. Most women, and most men for that matter, do not pick and choose the games they like to play based on how hot the main character is and how often their ass is on-screen. Sexualized female characters in male-dominated stories are a symptom of unaccommodating male authorship that doesn't care if it makes women uncomfortable. Introducing more hot men doesn't challenge men to write more compelling female characters and doesn't do anything to address how the content they've created has made women feel unwelcome.

If this was an industry full of female writers, designers, and directors, we wouldn't need to have this conversation at all. But this is a slow status quo to change and happens from the ground up. Asking for better representation in the meantime is change from the top down because men already in positions of control have the opportunity to take some responsibility and produce content people other than heteronormative white men are asking for.



In all of human creation, there is no more powerful or influential tool than man-made media. Media is the foundation for every human religion, over which wars are waged and millions of people murdered. Media is the basis for all of advertising, the cornerstone of commerce through which entire corporate empires are built. Media is the vehicle for propaganda, for every day social correspondence between humans, for bringing news and information and ideas. Media is a uniquely human creation through which all of humanity is influenced and defined. Human existence as you know it would not exist without media. This is precisely because humans have mastered media as a means of conveying messages, consciously or unconsciously, directly or indirectly, and other humans have listened.

How things are portrayed in media affects the way you recognize that same stimulus elsewhere. Seeing a commercial can make you want to buy something. Seeing a recruitment poster can make you want to join the army. A single movie can change the way an entire country of people perceive themselves. This is called The Godfather Effect. There is a reason the US Military and the Pentagon spend millions of dollars and lend equipment and expertise to Hollywood movies that depict the American Armed Forces in a flattering light. Media matters. Media makes a difference. Media shapes people and how they see the world - including other people.

People like to think they are smarter than their media. They like to think they decide what does and doesn't affect them. Certain people consume media more consciously than others by recognizing its faults and its dangers. They mitigate some of the conditioning by simply staying aware of the media they're viewing. But most people don't. Most people plug media directly in to their brain holes and don't think about it. They know they enjoy it and that's all that matters.

Seeing women only depicted as idealistic or endangered sex objects both reflects societal prejudices against women and also reinforces them. It fortifies the point of reference through which people relate to other people because the way your brain reacts to things is automatic. If you've been conditioned to see women as toys or dolls or objects through the media you consume you will continue to do so in the real world.

The comparison to violence is pointless. In your long life, it is highly unlikely you will ever pick up a gun and go on a killing spree. Humans are not born with guns and don't possess the natural impulse to go on a spree killing. This is not a biological function. It's not a basic human experience that happens automatically. But for most humans, sex is, and in your long life you will definitely see and speak to women. How you perceive women, and what you've been conditioned to think women are like and want, is going to affect how you interact with them and how you treat them.

Example: You have been influenced to think the answer to women's media problems are more hot men because your own media experience has taught you that it's a good thing that you like, so women must too. You assume women have as many options that you do and suggest they just play something else if they don't like it. But the point of this thread is to help you understand how people outside your personal experience might feel and what they might want out of their media. Instead, you are trying to give them what you think you would want.


As men, you and I already have everything we could want out of media. We have nothing to gain by denying others that same opportunity. I hope you realize that giving people more of what they like doesn't mean less of what you like. What you like does not need to be defended or preserved. It's not going anywhere. A lesson I wish more men would learn before they approach this thread is that it isn't about you.
This is an excellent post. Mentioning Scorsese made me take a pause, since he's my favorite director. At first I wasn't quite sure what you were talking about, as his films do have women in them. But yeah, you're right his films are male dominated from the leads to the supporting cast. Partly that's because of the subject matter/setting on many of his films, that's quite often been crime which is also male dominated field (organized crime or not). But I do think he has some great female characters, like in King of Comedy Sandra Bernhard basically steals the show from De Niro. Also Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore is definitely a feminist film. Ellen Burstyn had a lot of creative control over it (after the success of Exorcist) and she was who chose Scorsese, she saw Mean Streets and thought he would be a great director for the project so it wouldn't end up feeling like a formula "chick flick" like you also mention. Burstyn has told that she did have some reservations, if Scorsese could only direct men. So she asked what he knew about women. Scorsese's answer was short and honest "Nothing", then he continued "but I'd like to learn". This satisfied Burstyn and he got hired.

Personally I think the ending to the film could be better, so does Burstyn. But with the creative control she had over it, she managed to atleast partly save it from the studio execs pressuring her and Scorsese for "happy ending". The role was important for Burstyn at the time. Since she felt that WB only offered her roles where she would play a victim, understanding wife of the hero or a sex object, but never the protagonist (though the film does deal with the struggles women face, so Burstyn's character ends up as a victim of abuse too). But yeah, I would definitely like to see another film from Scorsese from female point of view. Unfortunately, he probably doesn't have that many films left. To be fair, many of his films do paint pretty bleak picture about men and (toxic) masculinity.

Also related: https://www.acmi.net.au/ideas/read/scorsese-makes-movies-about-men-they-speak-women-too/
'Women are not capable of understanding Goodfellas' is a headline clearly designed to get clicks. But could readers really expect anything more nuanced from Kyle Smith, the man The Atlantic Monthly once anointed "the most cantankerous film critic in America"?

In his 2015 article for The New York Post, Smith declared Goodfellas a "boy movie" that "takes place in a world guys dream about." Women are positioned as "the sensitivity police" unable to enjoy the film because watching men sit around poking fun at each other, while drinking and conducting extramarital affairs, offends us. Men will buy into the fantasy; women will universally be repulsed. You get the picture.

Since I've been watching and thinking and writing about Scorsese over the past few months, I've encountered a number of men very keen to explain his work to me, without invitation, as though my understanding must naturally be incorrect simply because I'm a woman. Perhaps Smith was onto something about how some men think about Scorsese's work and especially about where they position women in relation to it. Perhaps it's related to where Scorsese's films position us.
 
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Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
There is the possibilty that they didnt know about the accusations

Doesn't that mean we should probably make them aware of it? Perhaps someone should make a thread about it?

but i went and checked the bundle and you can choose where your payment goes so you could have all of what you pay not go to stardock ;p just scroll down snd you will see s tab to choose to which chariry all ypur paymwnt goes to.

Unfortunately not 1% of people who buy the bundle are going to do this. It's a really unfortunate situation altogether; I'm willing to assume unawareness on Humble's part on this.
 

Nana&Popo

Member
May 6, 2018
177
I'm more than a little biased but I love Shanoa's design. I just find her to be so stylish and cool that I can overlook the sexualized parts of her design.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
One of the bigger design norms I would like to see changed is the armor as fashion kind of attire you see everywhere and especially women characters. Random bits of plating does not protective wear make, and it's even more egregrious when you see a full armor breastplate (see Shanoa) and exposed bits elsewhere. If you're gonna put a character in armor then make it actually worth something, or make them rogue with leather pads if you want a lighter look.
 

The Artisan

"Angels are singing in monasteries..."
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
8,096
Well, considering I think Bayonetta is a terrible character and that the "but she owns her sexuality" angle is bogus to begin with, I'd say "She probably shouldn't, but she will, because the only people the company making these games care about is male gamers", so.
well i'm a male gamer and i'm turned off by the whole stripping part of her persona as it is, but in that thread, the overwhelming majority was like "nah she should strip" at least judging by the poll

it makes me wonder what the conversations in this thread are like. is the minority in the room the people who dislike women being sexualized while the majority here defend it? i thought it'd be the other way around. i guess i'm wrong
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,412
Make sure to check The Last Kingdom. There aren't probably as much female warriors as Vikings, but they are certainly memorable. And if you don't mind something a little (maybe more than a little) different, you'll find that in Spartacus as well.

I hear The Last Kingdom is quite similar to Vikings, so it's something I definitely want to check out.

Gotta watch Vikings sometime. We may switch to it once we finish this season of Better Call Saul.

Have a bit of patience with the show, because it is still very much a sausage fest. The show progressively gets better at showing of its female cast and warriors as it goes on.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,431
well i'm a male gamer and i'm turned off by the whole stripping part of her persona as it is, but in that thread, the overwhelming majority was like "nah she should strip" at least judging by the poll

it makes me wonder what the conversations in this thread are like. is the minority in the room the people who dislike women being sexualized while the majority here defend it? i thought it'd be the other way around. i guess i'm wrong
ERA is not the progressive haven you think it is.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The perils of this industry. Another thread brought this up again, so...what are everyone's thoughts on Shanoa?

latest


Keep in mind that...
-Yep, thighboots, because of course
-She's also fully bareback, because she breath errr - absorbs enemy magic through a rune on her back ( https://www.squarepalace.com/sites/...x675/public/tests/6312/6312.jpg?itok=AOHLLJi5 )

Is this terrible design? Is this a bad "sexy because woman" design? Is this a good "sexy" design? Is it neither?

She keeps making me think conflicting things. What do y'all think?
I'm similarly conflicted. I like the normal breastplate but don't understand the combo with bare shoulders- what's holding it in place if not shoulder straps/harness? I'm also aware it shouldn't be cause for great praise just for not putting boob sockets in armour plates, and it's not like they didn't sexualise other elements instead.

The dress slit to the waist to show off black stockings under plated greaves, so we get a flash of exposed thigh as she moved around seems so 'generic game character design' in contrast with the period high collar (the lacy detail of which also appears on the trim of her sleeves) and ribbon that I really like.

I like the flowing dress matching the flowing hair, it's a sort of vertical symmetry that I've commented on before with another character.

I like the colour scheme, the red on the inside of her blue dress, the blue ribbon that matches her blue eyes, and black glossy armour/boots paired with her black hair. A touch of gold as a trim colour. It's a strong, cohesive palette rather than an overdesigned one.

All in all there's stuff I like in terms of character design as a whole, both the stronger elements and the detail. However, some elements of the outfit/design seem conflicted where the palette, silhouette and symmetry seem cohesive.

The less said about the exposed back only visable in gameplay the better. It's only to massively increase the skin percentage on show rather than the breastplate when using 50% of your attacks, depending on what you assign to left and right hand it shows her front or back. It's a shame that Miriam in Bloodstained seems to take some of the weakest parts of Shanoa's design rather than the strongest.

Not the worst female mage/knight/adventurer I've ever seen, but, much like 'most progressive gaming forum', that's again damning with faint praise considering what makes up much of the rest of the field.

I do love the game though. I'm also eternally surprised she didn't end up with a boobplate. Maybe that's the difference between 2009 and 2018 :D

I think the artstyle goes a long way in making me more forgiving of the more sexualized aspects of her design. The back is the worst part given that numerous moves will showcase it including the rune absorption. I guess because it isn't as "in your face" as showing visible cleavage or leaning around for panty shots.

...which is more a problem with games in general when I'm happy the male gaze is only centered on her back rather than the normal parts.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Shanoa is the kind of design that looks quite cool to me at first glance, but once you start to dissect it you start to notice the questionable elements. Like I always found the bare back + absorbing mechanic cringey, but I rarely think about stuff like the thighboots.

I guess the elegant art styles helps the design seem a lot more dignified too.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,657
well i'm a male gamer and i'm turned off by the whole stripping part of her persona as it is, but in that thread, the overwhelming majority was like "nah she should strip" at least judging by the poll

it makes me wonder what the conversations in this thread are like. is the minority in the room the people who dislike women being sexualized while the majority here defend it? i thought it'd be the other way around. i guess i'm wrong
It can be seen as a part of her vulgarity and absurdity of the game or as problematic sexualized titillation. The 7:1 vote skew in the poll seems to suggest most view the nudity as a fitting part of Bayo's schtick that shouldn't go away, but that doesn't invalidate the other perspective, and as somebody said to me before, it can be both a fitting part of her character and problematic in the current context of gaming too.
 
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