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AdaWong

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,801
Raccoon City
Most of those posters are female or NB, FWIW. That said --


-- I can see why you would be annoyed if those posters were actually talking about you or singled you out (and I'm sorry if you felt targeted), but they didn't. They commented on the general tone of the thread, which did contain a lot (and I do mean a lot) of male posters drooling over Ada. Like, there's a big difference between "she's beautiful" or "she looks cool", and posting sweating gifs, or "would bang", you know? So, please, there's no need for this hostility. ^^

That said, I am glad you are in this thread to provide your point of view. It's always nice to see more women speaking up and I hope you continue participating in these topics in the future.

This is wonderfully conveyed, and I can see the point the members were trying to get across now loud and clear and in a way less offensive manner. I apologize if I came across aggressive, and although there's no excuse for being hostile; you can tell I was coming from a frustrated place. Again, thanks for the understanding and kindness in your response! :)
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
Man, I used to play Atelier games on the DS. They're cute, quirky and fun little time sinks with a complete lack of T&A but dear lord is that a far cry from what the games used to be. I suppose by being a Koei Tecmo franchise this trajectory was inevitable. I'll rue the day they do this to Nobunaga's Ambition or Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Eh, the Atelier series and other Gust games already had issues before Koei. Rorona came out before Koei was involved and had this scene. Ar tonelico Qoga had the characters strip during battle.
 

Lusankya

Member
Oct 27, 2017
601
Here's a photo of who the "we" in that sentence is, bee tea dubs:
Kuuj51C.jpg

On Personacentral there are translations of the interviews with Soejima-san as well as with the whole art team (all women beside him). And it's really clear that a lot of times it's not his or their artistical sense but rather what the director is asking them to do.

Now this is nothing new or scandalous, but there are some people who think that the final creation of an artist is always what he or she actually wanted to draw when it's clearly not the case.
 

FoxofGrey

Banned
Sep 9, 2018
5
User Banned (1 Week): Drive-by post, false equivalences.
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.
That they are separate topics and if you really are interested in violence in video games, you should make a thread about it instead of doing a whataboutism to try and playdown the actual issues of the thread. "Just wanna know if the OP has double standards" so convincing.
 

Minsc

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,119
Eh, the Atelier series and other Gust games already had issues before Koei. Rorona came out before Koei was involved and had this scene. Ar tonelico Qoga had the characters strip during battle.

I've never played them, but always throught of them as Vita games through and through lol. I was actually surprised to be reading in here that people found them to be not very offensive. I had them pegged definitely worse than the Etrian odyssey games but I may be getting them confused with another set of games where the main girl has a gamepad hat.
 

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,588
I've never played them, but always throught of them as Vita games through and through lol. I was actually surprised to be reading in here that people found them to be not very offensive. I had them pegged definitely worse than the Etrian odyssey games but I may be getting them confused with another set of games where the main girl has a gamepad hat.
Neptunia - that's what you're thinking of.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.

I am sorry that you're this offended at sexism getting criticized. I wonder why, though. Probably hit a bit too close to home, oh dear Throwaway Account.

I had them pegged definitely worse than the Etrian odyssey games

I would say this is entirely correct. The Etrian games have issues (especially with loli design), and on that front, the Atelier games I saw were definitely worse - they have random "lol lol fun" molestation stuff out of the blue, and highly questionable designs, too.

Which is a shame. I'd like them, if they weren't such obvious pandering.
 

TheCthultist

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,442
New York
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.
...to be fair, kind of impressed you actually bothered giving this account an avatar...
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,209
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.
Firstly, they are separate issues. If you genuinely want to talk about video game violence beyond just using it as a whataboutism to dismiss criticism of sexual objectification of women, you are welcome to make a separate thread about it.

Secondly, in very broad and reductive terms, society has generally agreed that murder and violence are bad. Video game violence is not a product of attitudes and systems that support random individual acts of murder or violence, and in turn does not reinforce such attitudes or systems - primarily because such attitudes are not generally accepted, and such systems generally do not exist.

By contrast, society hasn't yet generally agreed that rape culture and sexual objectification of women are bad. Sexual objectification of women in video games is therefore a product of existing sexist attitudes and systems, and in turn reinforces those attitudes and systems.

People generally don't turn violent or murderous just by playing Uncharted or Battlefield, because there is a general understanding that violence and murder are bad.

People do have their perceptions of women influenced and reinforced by sexualized representations of women in the media they consume, because those representations reinforce (and are in turn reinforced by) the still generally accepted sexist attitudes and systems within our society.

Sexist attitudes can also be amplified, reinforced, and protected by ignorance, which doesn't really apply to violence. If you punch someone in the street, everyone (including yourself) will recognize that as a violent act, because it meets the generally agreed upon definition of violence. You can't in good faith be ignorant of what constitutes violence. However, there are plenty of people who are ignorant of sexism, whether it is their own sexism or that of others. This enables sexist attitudes to persist or go unchallenged in ways that simply don't apply to violence.

All these factors lead to sexual objectification of women generally having a more pervasive and insidious influence on perceptions of women than whatever influence video game violence may have on perceptions of violence.

Finally, video game violence receives plenty of criticism that isn't the straw man 'video game violence directly causes real-life violence' - see games like Hatred (which is banned here), Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 ('No Russian' allowing the player to participate in a terror attack), Grand Theft Auto V (V specifically for its torture scene and Grand Theft Auto generally for its violence against sex workers), The Last of Us Part II (which had a multi-page thread discussing the graphic realism of its violence on this very forum), and more. I personally dislike how so many games these days rely on violence in both mechanics and storytelling and might even make a thread about it someday.

There is some overlap between issues of video game violence and representation of women (in the 'fridging' trope for example, as well as the aforementioned violence against female sex workers in Grand Theft Auto), but linking the two in an effort to deflect criticism of one or to suggest an unfair 'double standard' indicates to me that you are not interested in discussing either.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.
Are you also planning on posting in threads about violence in videogames and asking what the difference is between that and criticism of sexism in games? Somehow we never see this concern regarding the ethics of the OP the other way around. This whataboutery is so transparent.

Also, this thread isn't about criticism of sex in games (games mostly do handle both that and relationships badly too, but I'm sure most of us would like to see it done better). It's about sexualised design. One is perfectly natural, the other criticism of the reduction of a huge portion of female characters to being about titillation first. Casting criticism of sexist design trends as criticism of sex (usually to dismiss objection to such designs as due to being prudes or whatever) is ridiculous.

Personally I'd love to see sex and relationships handled better in games. Seeing as games seem stuck where comics were in the 90s, selling titilation and suggestion to men with costumes consisting of arrows pointing to the crotch etc while rarely going beyond that to show what a healthy sex life or relationship between lovers actually looks like when a sexy woman can be killed off to spark a rampage instead, I think most parts of the games industry are still a long way off. The link between sex and violence in games comes back to discussions of toxic masculinity rather than using whataboutery to discredit a specific topic IMO.
 
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Aexact

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,254
I've never played them, but always throught of them as Vita games through and through lol. I was actually surprised to be reading in here that people found them to be not very offensive. I had them pegged definitely worse than the Etrian odyssey games but I may be getting them confused with another set of games where the main girl has a gamepad hat.
Modern Atelier was habitually ported from PS3 to the Vita and on the whole, I'd say they're comparatively tame. ... Like, not Vita game moniker deserving, just standard anime game deserving.

... I do recall on GAF, there was a lengthy thread trying to defend a still shot of the main girl getting lifted into the air by an octopus to the extent where you could see her panties. I was trying not to think of that stuff when I playing Atelier and after reading that thread, seeing those weird scenes bugged the hell out of me. Bah.
 

RpgN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,552
The Netherlands
Eh, the Atelier series and other Gust games already had issues before Koei. Rorona came out before Koei was involved and had this scene. Ar tonelico Qoga had the characters strip during battle.

Those were the scenes/dialogues I was thinking about. It was really odd when it happened but I think it was optional and only came up when you fullfilled certain requirements (?).

Other than that though, OG Rorona had nothing else if my memory serves me right. Sure there are cute girls who always look young or act in your typical anime way, but it's far from being offending. It really felt like Rorona was her own person, had goals to achieve and stuff.

I would say this is entirely correct. The Etrian games have issues (especially with loli design), and on that front, the Atelier games I saw were definitely worse - they have random "lol lol fun" molestation stuff out of the blue, and highly questionable designs, too.

Which is a shame. I'd like them, if they weren't such obvious pandering.

Yeah, the designs have gotten worse and the games are being positioned like that now, but they were really tame before. I can still see myself being able to play the newer ones but if they get worse then I don't know...
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.
I recommend reading the Finale Fireworker post from few pages back. It's not all about what you asked but does cover it too. It's bolded in the quote below.

This is not a solution to the issue. This doesn't acknowledge or remedy the issue in any capacity whatsoever.

Most major visual industries (gaming, television, and cinema) are male-dominated industries. This pertains to both who is creating the media (where men are writing, directing, and designing the content) and who the media is created for (male consumption and point of view). Most media is written by men, for men, and media meant for women has historically been regarded as its own genre (the "chick flick", so to speak). This means that the male point of view is the dominant, neutral, point of reference. In this sense, women must learn to appreciate art on men's terms or create their own art. When they do create their own art, it is often underappreciated or relegated to genre because a woman's point of view is often not taken seriously.

What this means in reference to your statement above is that most media produced is going to be produced by men, for men, and because of the sexism most men have internalized, their art is going to either exclude women entirely or make them sex objects. Some male creators won't even think to include women in their stories because male critics and audiences will laud them anyway (just look at Martin Scorsese). Because their media is consumed principally by male audiences they will not be challenged on the fact their media contains virtually no women at all. This is because - again - a female perspective is niche and not important. What you get instead is an extremely narrow male perspective on what women are or should be.

Comfortable people don't complain and men are not usually the ones made uncomfortable. If they are, they have other options, because media has prioritized them for thousands upon thousands of years. Women do not have these same options. Men are depicted differently across every genre and medium and never are men at a shortage of ways to see themselves depicted. Women do not have this luxury and never have.

In most media, women are either victimized (murdered as an inciting incident, or kidnapped if you want to be generous) or idealized (sexy eye candy who pine for the main character or tease the male viewer with sex appeal). Rarely have women been portrayed with any depth, realism, or meaning other than how in danger or how hot they are. This means women do not have other options to choose when they find a sexualized depiction distasteful.

Sexualizing men does not improve the status quo of how women are depicted in media. It ignores the problem completely. This flawed sense of pragmatism doesn't do anything to improve media inclusivity. You are proposing a solution that nobody asked for to a problem you are not acknowledging.

Because the truth is: if women had as many options to choose from as men did, this thread would not exist.

Depiction of women in general has gotten better over the last decade. In gaming, inclusivity picked up steam in the wake of eye-opening hate movements like GamerGate. The situation is improving, but it isn't fixed, and it hasn't just improved automatically. It improved because a lot of women complained. It improved because some men listened. It improved because people realized broader and healthier depictions of all types of people is a moral compulsion that should be satisfied and, if nothing else, is good for business. Ten years ago, if women's complaints for how they were represented in media was answered with "increasing male sexualization" literally none of their concerns would have been addressed and we would not be where we are today.

Furthermore, the cop-out that sexualizing men somehow makes sexualizing women better doesn't do anything to make media more appealing to women. Most women, and most men for that matter, do not pick and choose the games they like to play based on how hot the main character is and how often their ass is on-screen. Sexualized female characters in male-dominated stories are a symptom of unaccommodating male authorship that doesn't care if it makes women uncomfortable. Introducing more hot men doesn't challenge men to write more compelling female characters and doesn't do anything to address how the content they've created has made women feel unwelcome.

If this was an industry full of female writers, designers, and directors, we wouldn't need to have this conversation at all. But this is a slow status quo to change and happens from the ground-up. Asking for better representation in the meantime is change from the top-down because men already in positions of control have the opportunity to take some responsibility and produce content people other than heteronormative white men are asking for.



In all of human creation, there is no more powerful or influential tool than man-made media. Media is the foundation for every human religion, over which wars are waged and millions of people murdered. Media is the basis for all of advertising, the cornerstone of commerce through which entire corporate empires are built. Media is the vehicle for propaganda, for every day social correspondence between humans, for bringing news and information and ideas. Media is a uniquely human creation through which all of humanity is influenced and defined. Human existence as you know it would not exist without media. This is precisely because humans have mastered media as a means of conveying messages, consciously or unconsciously, directly or indirectly, and other humans have listened.

How things are portrayed in media affects the way you recognize that same stimulus elsewhere. Seeing a commercial can make you want to buy something. Seeing a recruitment poster can make you want to join the army. A single movie can change the way an entire country of people perceive themselves. This is called The Godfather Effect. There is a reason the US Military and the Pentagon spend millions of dollars and lend equipment and expertise to Hollywood movies that depict the American Armed Forces in a flattering light. Media matters. Media makes a difference. Media shapes people and how they see the world - including other people.

People like to think they are smarter than their media. They like to think they decide what does and doesn't affect them. Certain people consume media more consciously than others by recognizing its faults and its dangers. They mitigate some of the conditioning by simply staying aware of the media they're viewing. But most people don't. Most people plug media directly in to their brain holes and don't think about it. They know they enjoy it and that's all that matters.

Seeing women only depicted as idealistic or endangered sex objects both reflects societal prejudices against women and also reinforces them. It fortifies the point of reference through which people relate to other people because the way your brain reacts to things is automatic. If you've been conditioned to see women as toys or dolls or objects through the media you consume you will continue to do so in the real world.

The comparison to violence is pointless. In your long life, it is highly unlikely you will ever pick up a gun and go on a killing spree. Humans are not born with guns and don't possess the natural impulse to go on a spree killing. This is not a biological function. It's not a basic human experience that happens automatically. But for most humans, sex is, and in your long life you will definitely see and speak to women. How you perceive women, and what you've been conditioned to think women are like and want, is going to affect how you interact with them and how you treat them.

Example: You have been influenced to think the answer to women's media problems are more hot men because your own media experience has taught you that it's a good thing that you like, so women must too. You assume women have as many options that you do and suggest they just play something else if they don't like it. But the point of this thread is to help you understand how people outside your personal experience might feel and what they might want out of their media. Instead, you are trying to give them what you think you would want.


As men, you and I already have everything we could want out of media. We have nothing to gain by denying others that same opportunity. I hope you realize that giving people more of what they like doesn't mean less of what you like. What you like does not need to be defended or preserved. It's not going anywhere. A lesson I wish more men would learn before they approach this thread is that it isn't about you.
Firstly, they are separate issues. If you genuinely want to talk about video game violence beyond just using it as a whataboutism to dismiss criticism of sexual objectification of women, you are welcome to make a separate thread about it.

Secondly, in very broad and reductive terms, society has generally agreed that murder and violence are bad. Video game violence is not a product of attitudes and systems that support random individual acts of murder or violence, and in turn does not reinforce such attitudes or systems - primarily because such attitudes are not generally accepted, and such systems generally do not exist.

By contrast, society hasn't yet generally agreed that rape culture and sexual objectification of women are bad. Sexual objectification of women in video games is therefore a product of existing sexist attitudes and systems, and in turn reinforces those attitudes and systems.

People generally don't turn violent or murderous just by playing Uncharted or Battlefield, because there is a general understanding that violence and murder are bad.

People do have their perceptions of women influenced and reinforced by sexualized representations of women in the media they consume, because those representations reinforce (and are in turn reinforced by) the still generally accepted sexist attitudes and systems within our society.

Sexist attitudes can also be amplified, reinforced, and protected by ignorance, which doesn't really apply to violence. If you punch someone in the street, everyone (including yourself) will recognize that as a violent act, because it meets the generally agreed upon definition of violence. You can't in good faith be ignorant of what constitutes violence. However, there are plenty of people who are ignorant of sexism, whether it is their own sexism or that of others. This enables sexist attitudes to persist or go unchallenged in ways that simply don't apply to violence.

All these factors lead to sexual objectification of women generally having a more pervasive and insidious influence on perceptions of women than whatever influence video game violence may have on perceptions of violence.

Finally, video game violence receives plenty of criticism that isn't the straw man 'video game violence directly causes real-life violence' - see games like Hatred (which is banned here), Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 ('No Russian' allowing the player to participate in a terror attack), Grand Theft Auto V (V specifically for its torture scene and Grand Theft Auto generally for its violence against sex workers), The Last of Us Part II (which had a multi-page thread discussing the graphic realism of its violence on this very forum), and more. I personally dislike how so many games these days rely on violence in both mechanics and storytelling and might even make a thread about it someday.

There is some overlap between issues of video game violence and representation of women (in the 'fridging' trope for example, as well as the aforementioned violence against female sex workers in Grand Theft Auto), but linking the two in an effort to deflect criticism of one or to suggest an unfair 'double standard' indicates to me that you are not interested in discussing either.
Also an excellent answer. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
We might as well try out the new Highlights option right away. Finale Fireworker's post deserves it.
Yeah, I think Llyrwenne 's post there should too, the difference between violence and sexism and why, whataboutery aside, they aren't exactly comparable is well explained.

I'd love to see more discussions on violence etc in games, particularly as continually pushing boundaries in search of a USP/talking point is what media does. It's just that nobody wants to make the thread as the community is resistant to it due to age-old fears about censorship/localisation that leads to the misplaced comparison to sexism etc in the first place. However, the constant disingenuous invocation of it as whataboutery to deploy that same wider resistance to censorship/localisation re. violence in defence of either creepy sexualised images of adolescents or rampant industry sexism (usually through the straw man of recasting as puritanism/fear of sex) is really annoying.

Just on the topic of Era 2.0, the 'similar threads' listing at the bottom makes OT1 (including Persephone's reasons for making the thread) much more visable now too. The 'common responses' in both OTs are largely based on the most common retorts in the opening salvo when the thread was launched.

Heh, apparently I also said this last November. Not like these counter-arguments operate on a circular basis or anything then.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...cter-designs-read-op.4483/page-24#post-697929
'We should be worried about violence in games, not sexism' is a poor argument- there's enough space to discuss both, and this space is a thread specifically devoted to the latter. If you want to start a thread about the former and why you think it's a problem, go for it.
 
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FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,035
I was going to respond to FoxofGrey but you all already answered and also, I doubt he/she is coming back lol.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Okay, so what's the difference between OP's criticism towards sexism in video games and the many critics criticizing of how there's too much violence in video games. Both seem to imply that there is a societal level of influence for both. I won't mention much else specific about either side though, but I just wanna know if OP has double standards for violence and sex.

dammit, now that it isn't red I'll had a difficult to see the bans and warnings. And that was one of the best parts of the forum. :(
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
My Japanese is super rusty but just the few words I understood made me not surprised that it had these kinds of character designs.

Mamotte-Knight-Switch_12-05-18.jpg
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
4,000
Gotta Protectors is a pretty damn fun game, and totally my jam, but, yeeaaah. The gameplay sprites kinda allow you to mostly ignore it, I guess?




The endless runner the studio released not terribly long ago was a great big oof too.



Falling Ass Bomb is the name of my new band.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Why are we using GB graphics in 2019?

Graphics are expensive :(

That said, these are....not good. I mean, the ninja or knight are also riffs on types, since the game seems to be trying to hark back to retro game stuff, bt that still doesn't mean I appreciate the outfits. Especially not of the amazon. That "runner" game, yikes.

Game seems fun though. Not the runner, the regular one.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,120
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Kinda off-topic but I couldn't think of another thread. I know Youtube comments are a cesspool, but reading stuff like this makes me irrationally angry.

This was on a Darksiders 3 video, not real spoilers but tagging just in case.

47388957_10218051631232254_2803390738249809920_o.jpg

47449532_10218051638392433_7701019882355163136_o.jpg

It's disheartening to see there's a generation of kids that got basically raised by 4Chan and live with such hatred for literally the other half of humanity (or anyone other than them really.)

How do you hate women so much? Are these people lost? Is there rehabilitation or is it only gonna get worse? I keep seeing this shit more and more every day.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,644
Brazil
Violence in media does not make people desintesized to seeing violence, said the person in the language of the country that saw sandy hook and said to themselves "we don't have a problem with gun violence"

from the tumblr thread:

....isn't this the type of people who usually go like "tumblr = feminazis" ?
Like what is the surprise ?
 
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Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,314
Violence in media does not make people desintesized to seeing violence, said the person in the language of the country that saw sandy hook and said to themselves "we don't have a problem with gun violence"
???
This post is nonsense. "The language of the country"? What does this place being an English-speaking forum (America didn't invent English, btw) have to do with anything?
Gun violence in the US is a huge issue caused by the proliferation of firearms in the country, not media violence. Japan (and Canada, Europe etc.) has low gun violence and just as many violent games.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
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Mar 21, 2018
2,258
How do you hate women so much? Are these people lost? Is there rehabilitation or is it only gonna get worse? I keep seeing this shit more and more every day.

Yeah, this is a thing that just gives me serious dark thoughts sometimes. But the irony is..

...it used to be worse, 20 years ago. It got better, now it got worse again. BUT.

For all it's worth:

20 years ago, games media would just laugh along and post sexist jokes because women too dumb for games. I "fondly" remember a german magazine (as in, published) that would call games they disliked "gay", except they were using the explicit German word for male homosexuality, not just an internet meme word.

Compare this to today. The games media will at least sometimes call out sexist shit. Gamergate was outed by the media for what it was within a day.

There are now more non-white dude devs in the industry than ever before, too. That's why the incel/gamergate/4chan crowd is so angry. They believed the marketing telling them games were only for boys (which always ignored the reality this was simply something marketing pushed because gendered marketing is easer). And now they're angry: They learned that what women like is bad. If women like games, games are bad. This can't be, thus, women must be outsiders forcing games into what games are not.

It's an ideology so stupid I still have few words. Many classic games would be demonized by this very crowd as "SJW not-games" nowadays. The ultimate irony is that it's this crowd that knows the least about games.


Sorry if I was mean to them, just...augh.

Japan (and Canada, Europe etc.) has low gun violence and just as many violent games.

Well, you could argue that the harsher censorship (I hate using that word for this) for violence in, say, Germany did help to make guns not as appealing. The US has a massive gun culture, and you can even see this in the games made in Europe and the US. Board games have a VERY distinct difference between US and Eurogames, for example, and many think this has cultural roots, and is reinforced by the media itself.

The second amendment has deep roots in the US, but isn't media reinforcing that some, with how glorified weapons and weapon usage is in games? You have a lot of games where the only way to interact with the world is guns, guns, and guns. There's even people now that think games aren't games without violence. Surely, that would influence attitudes, which then feed back into games (and any other medium).

If media wouldn't glorify weapons and lone heroes doing the right thing so much, would the US attitudes for weapons be as prevalent? I mean, the "lone shooter solving stuff" even gets quoted in mass shooting cases.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,644
Brazil
???
This post is nonsense. "The language of the country"? What does this place being an English-speaking forum (America didn't invent English, btw) have to do with anything?
Gun violence in the US is a huge issue caused by the proliferation of firearms in the country, not media violence. Japan (and Canada, Europe etc.) has low gun violence and just as many violent games.

I am not talking videogames leads to violence but it leads to being desintesized by violence.
A normalization in the sense that it loose it's impact.

Without violence in media sandy hook would have happened, but it would not be tuesday.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,314
Without violence in media sandy hook would have happened, but it would not be tuesday.
That shooting lost its impact because there's a daily mass shooting in the US... not media violence

If Sandy Hook happened in Canada, it would dominate the news for years. We're still talking about the Polytechnique shooting here.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Yeah, this is a thing that just gives me serious dark thoughts sometimes. But the irony is..

...it used to be worse, 20 years ago. It got better, now it got worse again. BUT.

For all it's worth:

20 years ago, games media would just laugh along and post sexist jokes because women too dumb for games. I "fondly" remember a german magazine (as in, published) that would call games they disliked "gay", except they were using the explicit German word for male homosexuality, not just an internet meme word.

Compare this to today. The games media will at least sometimes call out sexist shit. Gamergate was outed by the media for what it was within a day.

There are now more non-white dude devs in the industry than ever before, too. That's why the incel/gamergate/4chan crowd is so angry. They believed the marketing telling them games were only for boys (which always ignored the reality this was simply something marketing pushed because gendered marketing is easer). And now they're angry: They learned that what women like is bad. If women like games, games are bad. This can't be, thus, women must be outsiders forcing games into what games are not.

It's an ideology so stupid I still have few words. Many classic games would be demonized by this very crowd as "SJW not-games" nowadays. The ultimate irony is that it's this crowd that knows the least about games.


Sorry if I was mean to them, just...augh.



Well, you could argue that the harsher censorship (I hate using that word for this) for violence in, say, Germany did help to make guns not as appealing. The US has a massive gun culture, and you can even see this in the games made in Europe and the US. Board games have a VERY distinct difference between US and Eurogames, for example, and many think this has cultural roots, and is reinforced by the media itself.

The second amendment has deep roots in the US, but isn't media reinforcing that some, with how glorified weapons and weapon usage is in games? You have a lot of games where the only way to interact with the world is guns, guns, and guns. There's even people now that think games aren't games without violence. Surely, that would influence attitudes, which then feed back into games (and any other medium).

If media wouldn't glorify weapons and lone heroes doing the right thing so much, would the US attitudes for weapons be as prevalent? I mean, the "lone shooter solving stuff" even gets quoted in mass shooting cases.
Disgusting misogyny aside, there's a mild irony in one of those users whinging about anyone kneeling before Fury in Darksiders being a 'virgin soyboy' while hiding behind the username 'Arbaal the Undefeated'. Who, in the huge-spikey-shoulder-pads fantasy genre, is the champion of Warhammer's Khorne, the blood god of all those aforementioned, er, furiously spikey warriors. Perhaps our potty-mouthed chaos lord doth protest too much.

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Arbaal_the_Undefeated

Warning: extreme geekery
In Warhammer tabletop play in the mid-90s, Arbaal was nicknamed by my wargames club 'Arbaal the Easily Defeated', as despite the impressive resume and lovely model of a giant demon hound that he stalked around on, it was, like many chaos monsters, a demonic gift (magic item) rather than a true monstrous mount. This meant that, unlike Johnny elf dragon rider, where if you shot the guy on top his pet would go crazy and wreck face, applying a cannonball to Arbaal's teeth meant his pup just disappearing with him. And then we went to the pub to laugh about it rather than talking shit about people on the internet.
Apologies for this vision of off-topic trivia :D
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,891
Firstly, they are separate issues. If you genuinely want to talk about video game violence beyond just using it as a whataboutism to dismiss criticism of sexual objectification of women, you are welcome to make a separate thread about it.

Secondly, in very broad and reductive terms, society has generally agreed that murder and violence are bad. Video game violence is not a product of attitudes and systems that support random individual acts of murder or violence, and in turn does not reinforce such attitudes or systems - primarily because such attitudes are not generally accepted, and such systems generally do not exist.

By contrast, society hasn't yet generally agreed that rape culture and sexual objectification of women are bad. Sexual objectification of women in video games is therefore a product of existing sexist attitudes and systems, and in turn reinforces those attitudes and systems.

People generally don't turn violent or murderous just by playing Uncharted or Battlefield, because there is a general understanding that violence and murder are bad.

People do have their perceptions of women influenced and reinforced by sexualized representations of women in the media they consume, because those representations reinforce (and are in turn reinforced by) the still generally accepted sexist attitudes and systems within our society.

Sexist attitudes can also be amplified, reinforced, and protected by ignorance, which doesn't really apply to violence. If you punch someone in the street, everyone (including yourself) will recognize that as a violent act, because it meets the generally agreed upon definition of violence. You can't in good faith be ignorant of what constitutes violence. However, there are plenty of people who are ignorant of sexism, whether it is their own sexism or that of others. This enables sexist attitudes to persist or go unchallenged in ways that simply don't apply to violence.

All these factors lead to sexual objectification of women generally having a more pervasive and insidious influence on perceptions of women than whatever influence video game violence may have on perceptions of violence.

Finally, video game violence receives plenty of criticism that isn't the straw man 'video game violence directly causes real-life violence' - see games like Hatred (which is banned here), Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 ('No Russian' allowing the player to participate in a terror attack), Grand Theft Auto V (V specifically for its torture scene and Grand Theft Auto generally for its violence against sex workers), The Last of Us Part II (which had a multi-page thread discussing the graphic realism of its violence on this very forum), and more. I personally dislike how so many games these days rely on violence in both mechanics and storytelling and might even make a thread about it someday.

There is some overlap between issues of video game violence and representation of women (in the 'fridging' trope for example, as well as the aforementioned violence against female sex workers in Grand Theft Auto), but linking the two in an effort to deflect criticism of one or to suggest an unfair 'double standard' indicates to me that you are not interested in discussing either.

What an excellent, excellent post. Seriously. Well done. I wanted to articulate something similar, but I would never have been able to do it this effectively.


That shooting lost its impact because there's a daily mass shooting in the US... not media violence

If Sandy Hook happened in Canada, it would dominate the news for years. We're still talking about the Polytechnique shooting here.

Indeed. I studied it in college twelve years ago. My niece was studying it this year. That doesn't seem to indicate much of a shift in our desensitization to real-world violence. Our country is still shook by a mass shooting that occurred nearly thirty years ago.
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Disgusting misogyny aside, there's a mild irony in one of those users whinging about anyone kneeling before Fury in Darksiders being a 'virgin soyboy' while hiding behind the username 'Arbaal the Undefeated'. Who, in the huge-spikey-shoulder-pads fantasy genre, is the champion of Warhammer's Khorne, the blood god of all those aforementioned, er, furiously spikey warriors. Perhaps our potty-mouthed chaos lord doth protest too much.

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Arbaal_the_Undefeated

Warning: extreme geekery
In Warhammer tabletop play in the mid-90s, Arbaal was nicknamed by my wargames club 'Arbaal the Easily Defeated', as despite the impressive resume and lovely model of a giant demon hound that he stalked around on, it was, like many chaos monsters, a demonic gift (magic item) rather than a true monstrous mount. This meant that, unlike Johnny elf dragon rider, where if you shot the guy on top his pet would go crazy and wreck face, applying a cannonball to Arbaal's teeth meant his pup just disappearing with him. And then we went to the pub to laugh about it rather than talking shit about people on the internet.
Apologies for this vision of off-topic trivia :D

Valkia the Bloody > Arbaal the Defeated any day.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Anyone here played Ittle Dew? The main character is a young girl, though in the opening cutscene it attempts to establish this by ummm...


Though outside of that it's a great game and generally a funny quirky atmosphere.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Status
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