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Oct 13, 2018
130
Well with the inclusion of both an ice zone as well as pseudo wyverns (That was Nargacuga at the end of the trailer), we should hopefully be getting Barioth ,and by extension, this armor set.

latest

I'm hoping for G rank Paolumu myself. The skimpy halter appears to be a variation of Anja armor which seems to suggest G rank, which means more appropriate winter gear based on what's already in game.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,427
I'm really disappointed in So, I'm a Spider, so what? It was hardly high fiction or anything but it was a pretty fun romp of isekai tropes done in an actually interesting way for once. And no sexualisation.

As it turns out, the only reason there was no sexualisation was just because it didn't have any human characters. As soon as the human(oid) characters are introduced (like 20-something chapters in when I'm already invested) it pulls this shit:
8F6Ue6t.jpg

You see, she's evil so she doesn't wear clothes.

I guess lesson learned: look up any manga artist on baka-updates before you start reading. If I'd done that I'd have known that just about everything they've done prior is hentai.
Spider-san is still super good, and to be fair, we may not see the high demons again...like...ever.

But yes, at the end of the day, manga still gonna manga. Even the best products of entertainment coming out of japan will still have something that makes you slam on the breaks and go "what hte fuck is this" at least once.

But man that manga is good though. SHIT. So good.
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,483
Well with the inclusion of both an ice zone as well as pseudo wyverns (That was Nargacuga at the end of the trailer), we should hopefully be getting Barioth ,and by extension, this armor set.

latest
I had completely forgotten about the G-Rank variant (the normal one served as more or less a stand-in for the Kirin set, since Kirin wasn't in Tri/3U).
 
Nov 28, 2017
735
Sweden
Spider-san is still super good, and to be fair, we may not see the high demons again...like...ever.

But yes, at the end of the day, manga still gonna manga. Even the best products of entertainment coming out of japan will still have something that makes you slam on the breaks and go "what hte fuck is this" at least once.

But man that manga is good though. SHIT. So good.
I don't know. I think this is the first time I've encountered the fantasy armor (at least to this degree) in something I've actually been reading (so not counting the ads on the western comics I read growing up, that shit was ridiculous). I still feel like I've read a fair share of stuff. Just not the shonen fighting kind of fantasy, I guess. (Mushishi is more my kind of fantasy.) That isn't to say I haven't encountered sexualisation before, just not the string bikini armor kind. It really soured my experience and I'm not sure I'll continue.

I don't think I'm having too high standards. After all, I still find plenty of stuff to read and enjoy. Heck, even stuff that actually deals with sex and sexuality. I don't even mind seedy stuff as long as it matches the tone of the story. It's just when it's so completely out of place that I find it so off-putting.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I'm really disappointed in So, I'm a Spider, so what? It was hardly high fiction or anything but it was a pretty fun romp of isekai tropes done in an actually interesting way for once. And no sexualisation.

As it turns out, the only reason there was no sexualisation was just because it didn't have any human characters. As soon as the human(oid) characters are introduced (like 20-something chapters in when I'm already invested) it pulls this shit:
8F6Ue6t.jpg

You see, she's evil so she doesn't wear clothes.

I guess lesson learned: look up any manga artist on baka-updates before you start reading. If I'd done that I'd have known that just about everything they've done prior is hentai.
Spider-san is still super good, and to be fair, we may not see the high demons again...like...ever.

But yes, at the end of the day, manga still gonna manga. Even the best products of entertainment coming out of japan will still have something that makes you slam on the breaks and go "what hte fuck is this" at least once.

But man that manga is good though. SHIT. So good.

Coming from the light novels, yes you will see those demons again. A lot.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I'm curious. Do the light novels describe how the demons boobily breast down the stairs or is this all the manga artist's interpretation?

There is that annoying "I'm jealous of someone's bigger breasts" but I don't think there is anything describing someone's chest size at all. There is a more annoying thing but if I talk about it, that spoils something.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Fire Emblem Heroes just announced its new campaign starting tomorrow, set in the realm of the dead, Hel. Here's some character designs from it. Top is Eir, the (inevitably) young, pretty princess. Some weird anatomy going on and backless because, hey, she's got a dress covering her legs and there's probably a percentage to hit or something. As for Thrasir (bottom, right), she's one of a pair of characters with that silly anime ninja run, but I have no idea what's going on with her red tit straps. Reminds me of the Shining Resonance maid-knight girl with boob window in the frame of the boob window, there's getting creative and then there's just weird!
lWxSSI.png

LtD1Rf.png

Maybe they thought there was something for everyone as there's some Radiant Dawn characters (including Tibarn) coming in January...
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,427
Coming from the light novels, yes you will see those demons again. A lot.
Ugh, boo...

I mean, Isekais in general are pretty terrible, mostly because they all follow the same idiotic tropes. No matter how interesting they all start, they all, without fail, end up treading the same line. It's pretty annoying that Spider-san, the first Isekai that seemed more natural in the MC's growth and power gain, is going to succumb to that.

But then, the moment they said that her targeted skill tree was the one that gave her a half human half spider body, I kind of felt it might be heading there.

Oh well. Still though, It's the best Isekai out there, which, yes, is not saying much.

To date, I can only think of one Isekai that ended and that's the recent "Gals get sent into the fantasy world and use twitter as their main skill" which got 15 chapters and was promptly shot in the face. Hell, the last chapter is about it getting shot in the face.

Isekais are a creative trap that has seized an entire medium.

Fire Emblem Heroes just announced its new campaign starting tomorrow, set in the realm of the dead, Hel. Here's some character designs from it. Top is Eir, the (inevitably) young, pretty princess. Some weird anatomy going on and backless because, hey, she's got a dress covering her legs and there's probably a percentage to hit or something. As for Thrasir (bottom, right), she's one of a pair of characters with that silly anime ninja run, but I have no idea what's going on with her red tit straps. Reminds me of the Shining Resonance maid-knight girl with boob window in the frame of the boob window, there's getting creative and then there's just weird!
lWxSSI.png

LtD1Rf.png

Maybe they thought there was something for everyone as there's some Radiant Dawn characters (including Tibarn) coming in January...

lol. "Omnicidal".

Someone thought that was cool as hell.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
The English Wilderness
Fire Emblem Heroes just announced its new campaign starting tomorrow, set in the realm of the dead, Hel. Here's some character designs from it. Top is Eir, the (inevitably) young, pretty princess. Some weird anatomy going on and backless because, hey, she's got a dress covering her legs and there's probably a percentage to hit or something. As for Thrasir (bottom, right), she's one of a pair of characters with that silly anime ninja run, but I have no idea what's going on with her red tit straps. Reminds me of the Shining Resonance maid-knight girl with boob window in the frame of the boob window, there's getting creative and then there's just weird!
lWxSSI.png

LtD1Rf.png

Maybe they thought there was something for everyone as there's some Radiant Dawn characters (including Tibarn) coming in January...
Let's continue to pray that the abundance of shit in Heroes keeps it away from Three Houses.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,427
I don't know. I think this is the first time I've encountered the fantasy armor (at least to this degree) in something I've actually been reading (so not counting the ads on the western comics I read growing up, that shit was ridiculous). I still feel like I've read a fair share of stuff. Just not the shonen fighting kind of fantasy, I guess. (Mushishi is more my kind of fantasy.) That isn't to say I haven't encountered sexualisation before, just not the string bikini armor kind. It really soured my experience and I'm not sure I'll continue.

I don't think I'm having too high standards. After all, I still find plenty of stuff to read and enjoy. Heck, even stuff that actually deals with sex and sexuality. I don't even mind seedy stuff as long as it matches the tone of the story. It's just when it's so completely out of place that I find it so off-putting.

I mean, the last thing I'm gonna do is sit here and stan for something as transparent as that is, and you're right, it's pretty bad that the moment we see human characters with meaning, the male is clad head to toe in black armor, looking like the back of a sword you'd buy from a boys life magazine and the female is wearing a thong over her bottoms. I'd say the book is still good despite that, considering where it currently is, but I can't guarantee it'll stay that way and I'd guess, from experience, it'll get worse before it gets better.

That's just how manga do.

they-dont-think-it-be-like-it-is-but-it-do.jpg

We'll always have Helck.

Man when is Helck getting an anime? What a good book that was.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Ugh, boo...

I mean, Isekais in general are pretty terrible, mostly because they all follow the same idiotic tropes. No matter how interesting they all start, they all, without fail, end up treading the same line. It's pretty annoying that Spider-san, the first Isekai that seemed more natural in the MC's growth and power gain, is going to succumb to that.

But then, the moment they said that her targeted skill tree was the one that gave her a half human half spider body, I kind of felt it might be heading there.

Oh well. Still though, It's the best Isekai out there, which, yes, is not saying much.

To date, I can only think of one Isekai that ended and that's the recent "Gals get sent into the fantasy world and use twitter as their main skill" which got 15 chapters and was promptly shot in the face. Hell, the last chapter is about it getting shot in the face.

Isekais are a creative trap that has seized an entire medium.



lol. "Omnicidal".

Someone thought that was cool as hell.

It's weird, because the light novel likes...making fun of iseki's a lot. But that's huge spoilers that really isn't spoilers if you read the light novels but...oh what the heck.

Something that's in the LN that's not in the manga are the side chapters. Every book there is like a 4th of the book dedicated to another of the student's adventures and that seemingly plays like a more straightforward iseki story (though it is still a bit different). Both storylines come to a head eventually but it's kind of a big spoiler if you know it
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Well, it's kind of old news, but back when we were discussing Kojima, I just remembered, Strangelove is another character that gets completely screwed over by the plot. Which absolutely sucks because Strangelove is one of my favorite character designs in a game but Nope! Forced to suffer a cruel and unusual death by a meglomaniac.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Ah, isekais. I was actually forced to read one yesterday. It...turned out really good. Heroine never kills anyone, and mostly spends her time trying to be nice so she doesn't end in the various bad ends, since, well, she got isekai'd into an otome game - as one of the villains.

Was quite amusing to see her inadvertently romance both the male and female cast without the manga ever being sexual about it. The thing even ended fine, from what I saw from the original web novel.


Still, the genre just has ISSUES.
 

Tizoc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,792
Oman
Ah, isekais. I was actually forced to read one yesterday. It...turned out really good. Heroine never kills anyone, and mostly spends her time trying to be nice so she doesn't end in the various bad ends, since, well, she got isekai'd into an otome game - as one of the villains.

Was quite amusing to see her inadvertently romance both the male and female cast without the manga ever being sexual about it. The thing even ended fine, from what I saw from the original web novel.


Still, the genre just has ISSUES.
What series is that? I wanna read it

Also wouldnt the 80s dnd cartoon be like one of the earliest isekais?
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
What series is that? I wanna read it

"My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom!", also known as "Bakarina", since the heroine Katarina is a major baka.
Do not expect the usual "studies and becomes OP", though - she ends up studying "farming" instead...

Also wouldnt the 80s dnd cartoon be like one of the earliest isekais?

That'd fit. Even My Little Pony had these regular humans pushed to another world. They were all usually... less overpowered, I'd say.

I'm betting it's Otome Game no Hametsu Flag shika nai Akuyaku Reijou ni Tensei shite shimatta...

Please don't tell me there's something bad in that that I missed. You knowing about it makes me worried!
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Is .hack isekai? Isn't that pretty safe from all the harem & shit (at least the OG anime)? Won't say for sure, it's been a long time since I saw it.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
The one thing I'm worried about is the visual of that one little girl sleeping on a throne.

Let's hope she's appropriately dressed and isn't creeped on if she's one of them 1000 year old dragons.
Oh crap I'd forgotten about that. I think my optimism regarding the outfits we've seen of the main cast had blocked that from my mind!
 

FoxofGrey

Banned
Sep 9, 2018
5
That they are separate topics and if you really are interested in violence in video games, you should make a thread about it instead of doing a whataboutism to try and playdown the actual issues of the thread. "Just wanna know if the OP has double standards" so convincing.
Apologies if I didn't get the time to respond to the argument. Resetera went down right before I could respond.

The argument of relating sex and violence would not be categorized under a whataboutism argument. This is because both are involved with human instincts; the urge to have sexual feelings towards something/someone and the urge to commit violence. The main argument, at my understanding, is that video games have the ability to manipulate the mind to be more willing to commit actions, or using 50 cent terms here, priming the mind.

In fact, there has been multiple studies that found out that video games have little to no priming abilities; and thus the conclusion can be drawn that video games cannot have the inheritable ability to manipulate an individual to have sexual feelings towards something/someone; nor can have the ability to manipulate the person to commit any violent acts. So it is important to talk about one if you're bringing up the other due to how much they're connected and that if one is true, the other has to be true.

I will link the few research papers out there that deal with priming, violence, sexism, here.

One more thing here, the reason why media networks love to bash video games (whether it was with bashing Doom for being linked to the Columbine Shootings, or bashing GTA V for having the ability to commit vehicular homicide against sex workers) is due to how much they're in competition with the video games industry.

Citations (Apologies if they're all dropbox links, I got them from my university's web page, and I couldn't link the original since you have to log into their system to view the PDFs.):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qvnsf1eal5y3y6y/sexism.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5d51ma2zltuolzh/violenceingaming.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqo4cvmkpet3mbh/priming.pdf?dl=0

I'm completely open to talking with all of you, so if I'm slow at replying, I'm not pulling any sort of drive-by trolling or anything, I promise.

Also, I didn't see this post made here, so I'll edit this in here:


Firstly, they are separate issues. If you genuinely want to talk about video game violence beyond just using it as a whataboutism to dismiss criticism of sexual objectification of women, you are welcome to make a separate thread about it.

Secondly, in very broad and reductive terms, society has generally agreed that murder and violence are bad. Video game violence is not a product of attitudes and systems that support random individual acts of murder or violence, and in turn does not reinforce such attitudes or systems - primarily because such attitudes are not generally accepted, and such systems generally do not exist.

By contrast, society hasn't yet generally agreed that rape culture and sexual objectification of women are bad. Sexual objectification of women in video games is therefore a product of existing sexist attitudes and systems, and in turn reinforces those attitudes and systems.

People generally don't turn violent or murderous just by playing Uncharted or Battlefield, because there is a general understanding that violence and murder are bad.

People do have their perceptions of women influenced and reinforced by sexualized representations of women in the media they consume, because those representations reinforce (and are in turn reinforced by) the still generally accepted sexist attitudes and systems within our society.

Sexist attitudes can also be amplified, reinforced, and protected by ignorance, which doesn't really apply to violence. If you punch someone in the street, everyone (including yourself) will recognize that as a violent act, because it meets the generally agreed upon definition of violence. You can't in good faith be ignorant of what constitutes violence. However, there are plenty of people who are ignorant of sexism, whether it is their own sexism or that of others. This enables sexist attitudes to persist or go unchallenged in ways that simply don't apply to violence.

All these factors lead to sexual objectification of women generally having a more pervasive and insidious influence on perceptions of women than whatever influence video game violence may have on perceptions of violence.

Finally, video game violence receives plenty of criticism that isn't the straw man 'video game violence directly causes real-life violence' - see games like Hatred (which is banned here), Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 ('No Russian' allowing the player to participate in a terror attack), Grand Theft Auto V (V specifically for its torture scene and Grand Theft Auto generally for its violence against sex workers), The Last of Us Part II (which had a multi-page thread discussing the graphic realism of its violence on this very forum), and more. I personally dislike how so many games these days rely on violence in both mechanics and storytelling and might even make a thread about it someday.

There is some overlap between issues of video game violence and representation of women (in the 'fridging' trope for example, as well as the aforementioned violence against female sex workers in Grand Theft Auto), but linking the two in an effort to deflect criticism of one or to suggest an unfair 'double standard' indicates to me that you are not interested in discussing either.

Most of what you're arguing here, about how sexist attitudes in gaming can relate with perceptions of women, can be cited back to one of the longitudinal research pieces I linked above. They have found little to no correlation between how much games one consumes, and their sexist attitudes. And once more, this can go back to the example of how violence and sex are both involved with human nature and our instincts.

Finally, ending with one of your main arguments of society not accepting rape culture and sexual objectification being bad, you are completely incorrect with this argument from an objective stand point. We've had the major #metoo hashtag going around, exposing many hollywood actors as being sexual predators in private. Along with the many media organizations rallying for women to be more powerful in society, compared to what the previous decades had. General examples being the shaming of many women's clothing outlets, like Victorian's Secret, being heavily shamed for being less accepting of females that aren't model proportions. I'd say our society is less accepting of rape culture and sexual objectification due to these factors alone.
 
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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,427
Well, it's kind of old news, but back when we were discussing Kojima, I just remembered, Strangelove is another character that gets completely screwed over by the plot. Which absolutely sucks because Strangelove is one of my favorite character designs in a game but Nope! Forced to suffer a cruel and unusual death by a meglomaniac.
Strangelove literally gets fridged.

Is .hack isekai? Isn't that pretty safe from all the harem & shit (at least the OG anime)? Won't say for sure, it's been a long time since I saw it.

Sort of, but not really. In the original anime, people could enter and exit the game as they saw fit, except for Kite, and the show is all about establishing why and the characters within. It's actually a pretty sweet story.

The animes that are based on the second wave of games are pretty standard shonen faire though.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
The popular isekai of today is power fantasy at its core. Most are framed like "if only I lived in another world (that is tailored specifically to my current skill), I'd be successful" or "if only I was reborn with just this one (overpowered) skill, I'd get ahead in life". I generally dislike that because I feel like such setup is lazy and makes accomplishments feel unearned. Not to mention that a lot of them has a dash of "also, people in this new world are less enlightened than me and every problem that I need to clean up are due to their own faults and never mine" and I just find that kinda grating.

I admittedly have some titles I relish, like Accomplishments of a Duke's Daughter, which tells a story about a tax accountant getting isekaid into a medieval country. She then uses her modern knowledge to basically enact an societal and economic reform throughout her fiefdom, and it gets "power fantasy" at times in how easily people actually listen to her and take her seriously.

So it does have some of those trite isekai tropes, but then the plot swerves into tales of conspiracies while satirizing and recontextualizing some otome game cliches, and I enjoy that a lot.

 
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Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
.hack has some really dumb character designs, but considering it's a video game, it feels kind of appropriate, lol.
SIGN's mostly pretty fine. Twilight Bracelet/Dusk/Whatever the kids are calling it these days had the wolf lady, who was pretty fanservice-heavy from my memory.

GU, though, whew.

Magic Knight Rayearth is still pretty good if you want isekai.
You'll have a better time in general if you go back before everything became knock-off Dragon Quest worlds, lol.
 

Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
Magic Knight Rayearth is still pretty good if you want isekai.
You'll have a better time in general if you go back before everything became knock-off Dragon Quest worlds, lol.

I feel like shoujo manga actually had a pretty strong grip on the "transferred to another world" genre before this latest reincarnation trend? Fushigi Yuugi and From Far Away were some of my old favorites.
 

Deleted member 18021

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,000
I feel like shoujo manga actually had a pretty strong grip on the "transferred to another world" genre before this latest reincarnation trend? Fushigi Yuugi and From Far Away were some of my old favorites.

It tended to be young women who would find themselves traveling to other worlds in the 90s, yeah. T'was still formulaic back then, often focusing on the heroine amassing themselves a harem, but the genre wasn't yet endlessly trampled into the ground, and the settings were at least somewhat varied.

I have a lot of nostalgia for Fushigi Yuugi, but upon rewatching bits of it, I'm on this person's side, sadly.
Twelve Kingdoms was pretty nice, if you want something not focusing on the romance aspect.
 
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Komii

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,554
Isn't Twelve Kingdoms technically an Isekai?
Yes, not a harem type but it's all about young ones going to another world....

It's also based in books and not light novels, which makes the target audience different, hence why it is so good, i think people here might be sleeping on it as the female cast in this series is just great, as well as the themes
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
Ugh, boo...

I mean, Isekais in general are pretty terrible, mostly because they all follow the same idiotic tropes. No matter how interesting they all start, they all, without fail, end up treading the same line. It's pretty annoying that Spider-san, the first Isekai that seemed more natural in the MC's growth and power gain, is going to succumb to that.

But then, the moment they said that her targeted skill tree was the one that gave her a half human half spider body, I kind of felt it might be heading there.

Oh well. Still though, It's the best Isekai out there, which, yes, is not saying much.

To date, I can only think of one Isekai that ended and that's the recent "Gals get sent into the fantasy world and use twitter as their main skill" which got 15 chapters and was promptly shot in the face. Hell, the last chapter is about it getting shot in the face.

Isekais are a creative trap that has seized an entire medium.
That's it, I'm ordering those Rayearth omnibuses I found for cheap online.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
"My Next Life as a Villainess: All Routes Lead to Doom!", also known as "Bakarina", since the heroine Katarina is a major baka.
Do not expect the usual "studies and becomes OP", though - she ends up studying "farming" instead...
I'm going to second this manga. Very funny and cute.

Although Katarina unintentionally has a harem, it doesn't fall into the "which one she will choose!?" trope because she is more concerned about surviving than finding a romantic partner. Well, it hasn't where I'm at since english translation of the manga hasn't finished.

Magic Knight Rayearth is still pretty good if you want isekai.
You'll have a better time in general if you go back before everything became knock-off Dragon Quest worlds, lol.
I had no idea that was an isekai. Its been on my list forever.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,310
Finally, ending with one of your main arguments of society not accepting rape culture and sexual objectification being bad, you are completely incorrect with this argument from an objective stand point.
Oh dear, objective huh? This should be good~

We've had the major #metoo hashtag going around, exposing many hollywood actors as being sexual predators in private.
....That's it? That's your "objective" ironclad rebuttal? You can't be serious. There's already a backlash against #metoo, with numerous articles in "credible" papers asking "has metoo gone too far?" and sexual predators escaping justice or even being defended. Sexual predators have been elected to the highest offices of the United States. Hell, Kavanaugh's appointment was a bigger disgrace than even Clarence Thomas's, which was 25 years ago, and it continued the same rhetoric of blaming and attacking the victim, gaslighting, making the accused into a victim, etc. Trump bragged about sexual assault and still got 62 million votes.

Your claims that Llyrwenne is incorrect (objectively so, even!) about rape culture and objectification because #metoo is a thing is comically wrong and borderline condescending. The rest of your points after that don't even have much, if anything, to do with either of those things. I suggest you take a step back and listen to women in this thread before coming in here going "well, actually".
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
At a quick glance those studies are pretty bad for his (?) arguments too.

The first is just a "are people who play games longer more sexist than people who play less?" study (no, of course not, not all sexist play their sexist games for 10 hours a day), the second is about games not making people violent (they don't, yeah) and the third studies "priming", which I don't think has much to do with how entertainment objectifying women can affect women and the people who consume such entertainment.


Like, it's well established that the entertainment we consume does affect our worldviews. If medical shows start showing the importance of organ donorship, that will lead to those shows watchers having a generally more positive view of it. If those same shows started peddling some kind of conspiracy theories of organ harvesting and the evils that hospitals do with organ donors, then that would likely lead to people having a more negative view of organ donorship. Same goes with how women are treated. When the Harrison Fords and Johnny Depps are shown molesting women and portraying the women as (eventually) liking it, and this happens in everything, that's bound to shape how men view interactions with women.

Violence and sex/sexuality are also not treated the same by society. Overt or injustifiable violence is extremely frowned upon in society. Even if some violent impulses are somewhat natural (i.e. self defense), most children are taught from a young age that violence is wrong and that we should control our violent impulses. Hitting your siblings, parents, friends, schoolmates and strangers is wrong. Hitting someone because you want the toy they are playing with is wrong.

Sexual stuff isn't similarly frowned upon or taught to children. Heck, most children probably never get much beyond the "where do babies come from" talk (if that). There's also the problem with learning boundaries. Some sexually loaded stuff is ok in one situation but not ok in another, and unless people are taught those boundaries well, sexual advances can happen in unwanted, uncomfortable situations.

Yet movies and tv shows show young, impressionable men how James Bond swoons every lady and makes "charming" advances in the most inappropriate situations & in the most inappropriate ways, and since these are written by men for men, Bond's approach always works (eventually). No matter if they have to force it on women who keep saying NO. So these things are rarely handled in movies like they should be in real life. Yet they affect men who do not have the capacity & understanding to consider what they are watching critically.
 

Deleted member 5764

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,574
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I wanted to post about it anyway. I'm a male in my mid twenties and I just started getting back into anime and JRPG's. With that, I've very quickly grown tired of the "let's put a lady in sexy clothing and make a joke out of her being uncomfortable" trope.

I just started Persona 5 not too long ago and was really excited to have Ann join my party... Until she received her Metaverse costume that is. Thankfully I had some free DLC from ages ago so I just put her in a "winter outfit". It makes 70% of the situation better, but it didn't replace her latex suit model in conversations. It also does nothing for the strangely painful looking poses they make her do during battles.

Like... Wtf are you making my girl Ann do to her spine here?

pcdmzjkyp3h7wntc9jw7.jpg
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
I'm really disappointed in So, I'm a Spider, so what? It was hardly high fiction or anything but it was a pretty fun romp of isekai tropes done in an actually interesting way for once. And no sexualisation.

As it turns out, the only reason there was no sexualisation was just because it didn't have any human characters. As soon as the human(oid) characters are introduced (like 20-something chapters in when I'm already invested) it pulls this shit:
8F6Ue6t.jpg

You see, she's evil so she doesn't wear clothes.

I guess lesson learned: look up any manga artist on baka-updates before you start reading. If I'd done that I'd have known that just about everything they've done prior is hentai.

This is a manga adaptation of a light novel so the best you can do is look at the original for that case to see if it has such things. It's not everytime but you basically can recognize if it's a light novel by the long titles.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
.hack has some really dumb character designs, but considering it's a video game, it feels kind of appropriate, lol.
SIGN's mostly pretty fine. Twilight Bracelet/Dusk/Whatever the kids are calling it these days had the wolf lady, who was pretty fanservice-heavy from my memory.

GU, though, whew.

Magic Knight Rayearth is still pretty good if you want isekai.
You'll have a better time in general if you go back before everything became knock-off Dragon Quest worlds, lol.
Magic Knight Rayearth gets soooooo dark in the second season.

What's Clamp up to nowadays and is it good?
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,310
NiGHTS was cool. :3 One of my favourite Saturn games.
And now that I think of it, was NiGHTS the first non-binary (but still humanoid) protagonist?
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
The English Wilderness
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I wanted to post about it anyway. I'm a male in my mid twenties and I just started getting back into anime and JRPG's. With that, I've very quickly grown tired of the "let's put a lady in sexy clothing and make a joke out of her being uncomfortable" trope.

I just started Persona 5 not too long ago and was really excited to have Ann join my party... Until she received her Metaverse costume that is. Thankfully I had some free DLC from ages ago so I just put her in a "winter outfit". It makes 70% of the situation better, but it didn't replace her latex suit model in conversations. It also does nothing for the strangely painful looking poses they make her do during battles.

Like... Wtf are you making my girl Ann do to her spine here?

pcdmzjkyp3h7wntc9jw7.jpg
And when you put that in the context of the first arc, with Kamoshida...
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727
Most of what you're arguing here, about how sexist attitudes in gaming can relate with perceptions of women, can be cited back to one of the longitudinal research pieces I linked above. They have found little to no correlation between how much games one consumes, and their sexist attitudes. And once more, this can go back to the example of how violence and sex are both involved with human nature and our instincts.

Finally, ending with one of your main arguments of society not accepting rape culture and sexual objectification being bad, you are completely incorrect with this argument from an objective stand point. We've had the major #metoo hashtag going around, exposing many hollywood actors as being sexual predators in private. Along with the many media organizations rallying for women to be more powerful in society, compared to what the previous decades had. General examples being the shaming of many women's clothing outlets, like Victorian's Secret, being heavily shamed for being less accepting of females that aren't model proportions. I'd say our society is less accepting of rape culture and sexual objectification due to these factors alone.

The #MeToo movement is not an example of society not having an issue with rape culture, it is the exemplification of just how much of an issue our society has with rape culture that all of these victims felt that they couldn't speak up when these horrific actions happened to them and instead had to go through social media to even be heard.

If we look at this from an American point of view, where largely the #MeToo movement surrounding Hollywood exists, we can look towards the court systems and the reasons why women don't come forward to better understand this as well.

Out_Of_1000_Rapes.jpg


And from that same source, as to the reasons why victims don't come forward :

Of the sexual violence crimes reported to police from 2005-2010, the survivor reporting gave the following reasons for doing so:5


  • 28% to protect the household or victim from further crimes by the offender
  • 25% to stop the incident or prevent recurrence or escalation
  • 21% to improve police surveillance or they believed they had a duty to do so
  • 17% to catch/punish/prevent offender from reoffending
  • 6% gave a different answer, or declined to cite one reason
  • 3% did so to get help or recover loss
Of the sexual violence crimes not reported to police from 2005-2010, the victim gave the following reasons for not reporting:5


  • 20% feared retaliation
  • 13% believed the police would not do anything to help
  • 13% believed it was a personal matter
  • 8% reported to a different official
  • 8% believed it was not important enough to report
  • 7% did not want to get the perpetrator in trouble
  • 2% believed the police could not do anything to help
  • 30% gave another reason, or did not cite one reason
Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

When looking at these statistics, the two highest reasons for not reporting at all was because victims feared retaliation or that the police wouldn't do anything to help. While these were from 2005 - 2010 from before the #MeToo movement, these are the underlying feelings that led to an issue as sensitive as personal as that to be forced out into the public.

If you look at the actual process of what happens when you try to report a crime like this, there are quite a few examples of police officers not testing rape kits for DNA evidence while throwing them out just to make more space while these crimes were still within the statute of limitations. In the event that you manage to make it to a trial and recount the trauma that you've gone through, there are times where judges will let the accused off the hook because they've suffered enough by going through the trial while prosecutors look for any possible reason to paint you as unreliable, whether it's by saying you sleep with your boyfriend which proves you're sexually active, so you must have consented or loads of other nonsense reasons like that, that happen every single day in the court system.

The court system is not 1:1 with how everyone feels about the situation and how much support they'll show, but it is a strong representation of the realities of how our society views and treats victims of sexual assault. As an example of that retaliation, I've heard stories of people who don't want to come forward because they know that their friends and family will ostracize them or blame them for trying to ruin someone's life for daring to speak up about what happened. That's a reality for a lot of people, where they have to weigh whether it's worth it to go through an entire system that will force you to relive your trauma, where there is little chance of any possible justice being served, while enduring the harassment and scorn of those closest to them.

Beyond just family and friends, you can see how people really feel about this when you look just beyond the surface of these women coming forward through the #MeToo movement. There are countless articles talking about how #MeToo has gone too far, or you can look at the Kavanaugh case where Dr. Ford gave a testimony about what she had endured, and the people on the highest court system in the country would not even investigate it because they cared about the man more than the people that he's hurt. Months after that entire hearing happened, Dr. Ford still receives death threats for speaking up.

The #MeToo movement is a great thing to have happened, but it's also really sad that it had to come to that point for people to even begin to question what kind of attitudes we have towards sexual assault victims. It's an incredibly long road ahead to even make sure that highly prolific cases like those will see lasting justice, so please don't look at that movement and assume that we've solved the issue and that everything is 100% okay now. Our society has a lot of deep rooted problems when it comes to sexual assault, and the reality is that those aren't going to go away that quickly. We have to acknowledge that it still exists and continuously fight to make things better.
 

caff!!!

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,029
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I wanted to post about it anyway. I'm a male in my mid twenties and I just started getting back into anime and JRPG's. With that, I've very quickly grown tired of the "let's put a lady in sexy clothing and make a joke out of her being uncomfortable" trope.

I just started Persona 5 not too long ago and was really excited to have Ann join my party... Until she received her Metaverse costume that is. Thankfully I had some free DLC from ages ago so I just put her in a "winter outfit". It makes 70% of the situation better, but it didn't replace her latex suit model in conversations. It also does nothing for the strangely painful looking poses they make her do during battles.

Like... Wtf are you making my girl Ann do to her spine here?

pcdmzjkyp3h7wntc9jw7.jpg
it just makes practical sense for thieves to wear a uncomfortable form fitting costume with stiff leather boots and gloves that can catch on just about anything while also doing crossfit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,119
I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I wanted to post about it anyway. I'm a male in my mid twenties and I just started getting back into anime and JRPG's. With that, I've very quickly grown tired of the "let's put a lady in sexy clothing and make a joke out of her being uncomfortable" trope.

I just started Persona 5 not too long ago and was really excited to have Ann join my party... Until she received her Metaverse costume that is. Thankfully I had some free DLC from ages ago so I just put her in a "winter outfit". It makes 70% of the situation better, but it didn't replace her latex suit model in conversations. It also does nothing for the strangely painful looking poses they make her do during battles.

Like... Wtf are you making my girl Ann do to her spine here?

pcdmzjkyp3h7wntc9jw7.jpg
No game in recent memory has made me more disappointed than I was at how Ann's arc turned out after the Kamoshida palace.

Yeah, let's put a teenage girl who is uncomfortable being defined and harassed over her looks and put in her in a skin tight cat suit to 'own' that image.
 

FoxofGrey

Banned
Sep 9, 2018
5
User Banned (permanently): attacking rape victims, continued sexist trolling after previous ban, account in junior phase
The #MeToo movement is not an example of society not having an issue with rape culture, it is the exemplification of just how much of an issue our society has with rape culture that all of these victims felt that they couldn't speak up when these horrific actions happened to them and instead had to go through social media to even be heard.

If we look at this from an American point of view, where largely the #MeToo movement surrounding Hollywood exists, we can look towards the court systems and the reasons why women don't come forward to better understand this as well.

Out_Of_1000_Rapes.jpg


And from that same source, as to the reasons why victims don't come forward :

Of the sexual violence crimes reported to police from 2005-2010, the survivor reporting gave the following reasons for doing so:5


  • 28% to protect the household or victim from further crimes by the offender
  • 25% to stop the incident or prevent recurrence or escalation
  • 21% to improve police surveillance or they believed they had a duty to do so
  • 17% to catch/punish/prevent offender from reoffending
  • 6% gave a different answer, or declined to cite one reason
  • 3% did so to get help or recover loss
Of the sexual violence crimes not reported to police from 2005-2010, the victim gave the following reasons for not reporting:5


  • 20% feared retaliation
  • 13% believed the police would not do anything to help
  • 13% believed it was a personal matter
  • 8% reported to a different official
  • 8% believed it was not important enough to report
  • 7% did not want to get the perpetrator in trouble
  • 2% believed the police could not do anything to help
  • 30% gave another reason, or did not cite one reason
Source: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system

When looking at these statistics, the two highest reasons for not reporting at all was because victims feared retaliation or that the police wouldn't do anything to help. While these were from 2005 - 2010 from before the #MeToo movement, these are the underlying feelings that led to an issue as sensitive as personal as that to be forced out into the public.

If you look at the actual process of what happens when you try to report a crime like this, there are quite a few examples of police officers not testing rape kits for DNA evidence while throwing them out just to make more space while these crimes were still within the statute of limitations. In the event that you manage to make it to a trial and recount the trauma that you've gone through, there are times where judges will let the accused off the hook because they've suffered enough by going through the trial while prosecutors look for any possible reason to paint you as unreliable, whether it's by saying you sleep with your boyfriend which proves you're sexually active, so you must have consented or loads of other nonsense reasons like that, that happen every single day in the court system.

The court system is not 1:1 with how everyone feels about the situation and how much support they'll show, but it is a strong representation of the realities of how our society views and treats victims of sexual assault. As an example of that retaliation, I've heard stories of people who don't want to come forward because they know that their friends and family will ostracize them or blame them for trying to ruin someone's life for daring to speak up about what happened. That's a reality for a lot of people, where they have to weigh whether it's worth it to go through an entire system that will force you to relive your trauma, where there is little chance of any possible justice being served, while enduring the harassment and scorn of those closest to them.

Beyond just family and friends, you can see how people really feel about this when you look just beyond the surface of these women coming forward through the #MeToo movement. There are countless articles talking about how #MeToo has gone too far, or you can look at the Kavanaugh case where Dr. Ford gave a testimony about what she had endured, and the people on the highest court system in the country would not even investigate it because they cared about the man more than the people that he's hurt. Months after that entire hearing happened, Dr. Ford still receives death threats for speaking up.

The #MeToo movement is a great thing to have happened, but it's also really sad that it had to come to that point for people to even begin to question what kind of attitudes we have towards sexual assault victims. It's an incredibly long road ahead to even make sure that highly prolific cases like those will see lasting justice, so please don't look at that movement and assume that we've solved the issue and that everything is 100% okay now. Our society has a lot of deep rooted problems when it comes to sexual assault, and the reality is that those aren't going to go away that quickly. We have to acknowledge that it still exists and continuously fight to make things better.


I do heavily appreciate you bringing in citations to support your argument. I like when people are able to back up their claims. However, the same citation you're bringing up, RAINN, has stated that rape culture is not the cause of sexual violence. And while it is focused mainly on college campuses, the underlying message they're providing can be shared with the rest of our society.

Next, leading off that point, a lot of the colleges that do report higher rates of sexual violence tend to be heavily inaccurate. One example is from Harvard, where 31% of women, out of 172 of the ones surveyed, reported some form of "non-consensual sexual contact" since college began for them. And the way they worded the question for this statistic was, "Since you have been a student at Harvard University has a student or someone employed by or otherwise associated with Harvard…continued to ask you to go out, get dinner, have drinks or have sex even though you said no?" And with their 1 in 4 statistic it's a heavily simplified statistic that, again, uses vague terminology like "sexual touching" and "non-consensual" to confuse the individuals being surveyed to respond with a "yes". And, logically, that's a larger rate than the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where rape is viewed as a norm.

I would like to touch on one US law in particular that has ruined the lives of many due to actual false reports; and that being Title IX. At least once per week, a new due process lawsuit against a college is filed, with the majority of them having strong evidence supporting them; and these lawsuits are all centered around the student being charged with sexual assault on campus. Bringing up more specific examples, during this year, an autistic student was hit with two Title IX claims, neither being sexual in nature, but both being a fist pump and his hand around the other person's shoulder. And another one, being from a law firm, involved a football player from OSU charged under Title IX for consensual sex between him and the woman who reported him.

Lastly, regarding your comment about the #metoo movement. Any sort of movement will have critics analyzing it, so why is that a bad thing? Not every single movement has to be 100% free from criticism. And this isn't limited to left-leaning/civil rights movement, this goes for any societal movement that has happened ever. And if you actually read the criticism of the movement, you'll find that it does bring up some good points. What if there are some claims that are false? Would someone like Terry Cruise be the only man to tell his experience about sexual assault? These sort of points do have credence to them. Even with the case for Dr. Ford, many of her claims don't seem to line up with what others that were involved with her case have also claimed. One case being where people attending the party, on the night of the incident, reporting that what she told about that night was not accurate. Another being her giving different stories with her therapist's notes, compared to what she's saying now. And, again, logically, why would she report the incident now when Kavanaugh is becoming a judge in the Supreme Court? Why not when she was talking with her therapist?

I'll end this here from a quote from the attorney who worked at the Law Firm mentioned before:
These days, the interaction between young men and women is very combustible. But women who have sex and later regret it should not be allowed to cry rape. Lives are being destroyed. Every case warrants a closer look to determine if there is a motive for the accuser to lie. All of us, working together, need to increase public awareness of this epidemic and fight hard for justice for all.

Citations:
http://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/
https://www.rainn.org/images/03-2014/WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf
https://nypost.com/2015/09/27/the-myth-of-the-college-rape-culture/
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brian-earp/1-in-4-women-how-the-late_b_8191448.html
https://academic.oup.com/afraf/article-abstract/111/443/202/16975?redirectedFrom=fulltext
https://www.koffellaw.com/sex-crimes/rape/title-ix-and-false-accusations/
https://www.koffellaw.com/columbus-...-university-football-player-exonerated-of-fa/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-courts/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0ea07ec365b8
https://www.ewa.org/blog-higher-ed-beat/untangling-title-ix-reporting-experts
https://www.thecollegefix.com/this-...-a-selfie-he-got-two-title-ix-investigations/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...ies-not-credible-kavanaugh-column/1497661002/
 

Llyrwenne

Hopes and Dreams SAVE the World
Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,209
FoxofGrey

It is absolutely whataboutism. You are making completely arbitrary links ('they're both human instincts') while significantly reducing the scope of the criticisms leveled to fit your argument. Reducing criticisms of both violence and sexualization to a singular, identical, shared, and mutually inclusive issue of 'priming' does not accurately or fairly represent the criticisms leveled at either. The 'But what about violence?' question itself implies an accusation of hypocrisy, which you made explicit in your previous post through your immediate unfounded preemptive accusation of a double standard against this thread's creator and participants.

This thread is about sexualized female character designs, thus people in it discuss sexualized female character designs. You entering this thread to accuse others of having a double standard because they're not discussing video game violence in this thread that isn't about video game violence, followed by your attempts to characterize issues of violence and sexualization as mutually inclusive by out of either dishonesty or ignorance presenting a severely limited interpretation of criticisms of those issues, absolutely qualifies as whataboutism.

Your quip about 'the media networks' honestly reads like conspiratorial nonsense and borders on GamerGate rhetoric, and your simultaneous dismissal of certain criticisms there suggests to me that you are not genuinely interested in discussing video game violence outside of linking it to sexual objectification in a seeming effort to dismiss criticisms of both.

I won't address the studies you linked, in part because I simply do not have the time or energy right now to go through three studies, and in part because their content at least at a glance seems to be largely irrelevant to the greater flaws in your argument.

As for your comments on rape culture and #MeToo, I would refer you to the posts made by Ketkat and Morrigan as I simply do not have the energy to type something up myself.

Apologies in advance if I came across as overly harsh at any point in this post. I'm in a very bad mood today and you might see that reflected in my writing.

Edit: Well, I suppose this response was a complete waste of my time. Gish galloping, sealioning, and outright defense of rape culture. Good riddance. Thank you for the swift ban. 💖
 
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