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Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,251
Card Captor is the only anime I've seen them doing lately. I seriously wish xxxHolic would come back though. Love that show.

And yeah, the second season of Magic Knight Rayearth is crazy dark. It twists the entire world and really strongly presents the conundrum of, "what is one life worth?"

My scorching hot take is that while the second season of the Magic Knight Rayearth cartoon did a few good things to expand on the comic (the girls getting to spend time with the other countries was Good), overall it's much worse than the comic's version because of its inclusion of Debonair, which significantly undercuts the message of the comic. So like, instead of a story about the nature of conflict, it pushes that to the back burner so it can have A Tangible Villain.

Anyway, remember how X/1999 was about Global Warming.
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,407
Just took a read through that Kanye & Kojima thread, tons of people acting like Kojima is some pure human being. Has there ever been a dedicated thread about Kojima and his shit? I assume it wouldn't matter, most will continue to bow at his feet.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Just took a read through that Kanye & Kojima thread, tons of people acting like Kojima is some pure human being. Has there ever been a dedicated thread about Kojima and his shit? I assume it wouldn't matter, most will continue to bow at his feet.
I have never liked Kojima. One of the main reasons is how he portrays women in his games. Take the Boss in MGS3 for example. Strong and an authoritative figure, yet look at her shitty design after the prologue. Same with Eva.
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And don't get me started on Quiet. Or the Beauty and the Beast unit in MGS4.
Haven't played MGS and MGS2 games, so can't comment about them.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,251
I have never liked Kojima. One of the main reasons is how he portrays women in his games. Take the Boss in MGS3 for example. Strong and an authoritative figure, yet look at her shitty design after the prologue. Same with Eva.
latest

And don't get me started on Quiet. Or the Beauty and the Beast unit in MGS4.
Haven't played MGS and MGS2 games, so can't comment about them.

Um, it's hot in the jungle, she has to keep cool somehow, lol....

Edit: Alternate take: As a spy, she uses her titties to distract her targets.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,531
Eva's design makes more sense than most of the others because of the character's actual personality and role, rather than awkwardly clashing with it, but we can't really ignore that Hideo Kojima in general doesn't have a good record when dealing with this subject.

Unrelated side note: I am glad that Magic Knight Rayearth is finally appearing in a SRW game. Took them long enough!
 

Deleted member 29682

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
12,290
I kind of assumed (in hindsight) that she was tasked with getting close to Snake by any means possible, but frankly she should have just given him more highly customised handguns, given how weirdly excited he got from just one.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Just took a read through that Kanye & Kojima thread, tons of people acting like Kojima is some pure human being. Has there ever been a dedicated thread about Kojima and his shit? I assume it wouldn't matter, most will continue to bow at his feet.
resetera: i can excuse blatant hatred of women, but i draw the line at supporting trump
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
The Koji-ye thing, I would rather not see that happen. Those 2 egos should be kept at a galactic distance apart at all times.
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
It's weird to see celebs try to appeal to the games and anime crowd now. Elon Musk, Kanye - somehow it's always the worst of people.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,325
I have never liked Kojima. One of the main reasons is how he portrays women in his games. Take the Boss in MGS3 for example. Strong and an authoritative figure, yet look at her shitty design after the prologue. Same with Eva.
latest

And don't get me started on Quiet. Or the Beauty and the Beast unit in MGS4.
Haven't played MGS and MGS2 games, so can't comment about them.

She's literally based on Amy Thorpe, who was a female spy during WWII who used her sexuality to get intel from various government officials. Which is exactly what Eva did.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,325

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
Who knows how she dressed during that period. It's not as if there are exactly a ton of photos of a spies in action during WWII.
you: Hey, you can't criticize that design, she's CLEARLY based on the obvious super sexy spy that actually existed, and you can't argue with history. Checkmate.

also you: how the super sexy spy dressed is unknown and lost to time, you can't expect me to show how she dressed

btw, we do know how she dressed: like a normal person of that time period. Spies were supposed to be inconspicious
 

big bas

The Fallen
Jan 2, 2018
502
Did you all see that best walking animations thread the past couple days lol not great imo

Also on kojima, I love his games (profile pic duh) but also recognize a lottt of very problematic stuff and it can be hard to reconcile
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,325
you: Hey, you can't criticize that design, she's CLEARLY based on the obvious super sexy spy that actually existed, and you can't argue with history. Checkmate.

also you: how the super sexy spy dressed is unknown and lost to time

Show me specifically where I said you can't criticize designs. Go ahead.
 

Stone Dudeman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
693
It's not like Eva is an outlier. Anyone remember Sniper Wolf? I assume the badass sniper lady must have had a broken zipper on her jacket, cause that's the only explanation I can think of for why the professional soldier walked around the Alaskan winter with her tits hanging out.
 

FallenGrace

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,035
It's not like Eva is an outlier. Anyone remember Sniper Wolf? I assume the badass sniper lady must have had a broken zipper on her jacket, cause that's the only explanation I can think of for why the professional soldier walked around the Alaskan winter with her tits hanging out.
It's to help with her aim obviously. It somehow improves their stability. The extra zip weight further up would ruin their shots.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,325
Literally? No where. Effectively? When you put forth the classic 'it's how history was' defense without knowing how history was.

That wasn't my point at all. She's not like Quiet which is just a dumb design that was made in large part to push action figures (Kojima even admitted this). As a character Eva is meant to be a seductress. If you want to criticize her design then fine. But at the very least there was more thought put into it in terms of her character than with Quiet. And yeah I know that gets into the "Well, you can justify any design no matter how ridiculous it may be as a game developer". But that also doesn't actually make it a bad design.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,404
The English Wilderness
She's literally based on Amy Thorpe, who was a female spy during WWII who used her sexuality to get intel from various government officials. Which is exactly what Eva did.
Snake literally compares her to Mata Hari in-game, iirc.

I don't have a problem with Eva in MGS3 myself. She was designed to be the atypical Bond girl, with the endgame twist that she was the one playing everyone else, Snake included.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
That wasn't my point at all.
Sorry, but that was exactly your point. Maybe you worded it poorly and meant to say something else, but you were specifically responding to the eva criticism by citing a historical reference. Historical reference you are apparently not very knowledgeable about if you think how spies dressed is some great mystery, but your comment is essentially a non-sequitor if you weren't trying to defend Eva from design criticism on historical basis.

As for the rest of your post....

As a character Eva is meant to be a seductress. If you want to criticize her design then fine. But at the very least there was more thought put into it in terms of her character than with Quiet. And yeah I know that gets into the "Well, you can justify any design no matter how ridiculous it may be as a game developer". But that also doesn't actually make it a bad design.

I think most people would agree that Eva's visual design is better suited for her role in the story in a pulpy way, but it's not really Eva herself that's being criticized, it's Kojima. Any argument of artistic integrity loses water when you realize that he would have sexually objectified her whether she was a seductive spy, a plain scientist, a sniper in the arctic, a military freedom fighter, or even a traumatized child soldier. Sexualizing women to such an extent that it effectively objectifies them is just what Kojima does in his games. Eva sexualization fitting her role in MGS3 comes off, at best, a fortunate coincidence.

And even then, it's not like the seductive spy is a trope that HAS to be played in this way. It would actually be far more interesting and intimate if she had seduced Snake not by constantly flaunting her body at him, but by specifically creating an artificial personality that, for him personally, was attractive in a deeper emotional way. If anything, she comes across as desperate and bordering on incompetent as a seductress when Snake is consistently disinterested whenever she gets half naked to no effect. Snake gets involved with her when they've completed the mission, becoming comrades in arms, and she should have picked up on that being the key to his heart, dropped the sex kitten act, and angled for that way earlier.

But then the player wouldn't have been to oogle her as much, would they? That's the REAL reason she's designed like that.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I kind of assumed (in hindsight) that she was tasked with getting close to Snake by any means possible, but frankly she should have just given him more highly customised handguns, given how weirdly excited he got from just one.

Quite frankly, a dictionary would have been a better gift given his need to repeat words all the time :P
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
But then the player wouldn't have been to oogle her as much, would they? That's the REAL reason she's designed like that.
This is the explanation for pretty much all relevant cases. The reason there's a beach episode in anime (and increasingly, video games) is not so the characters can go and relax. It's so the male gaze (e.g., Kojima) can feel comfortable objectifying all the characters.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,295
Sorry, but that was exactly your point. Maybe you worded it poorly and meant to say something else, but you were specifically responding to the eva criticism by citing a historical reference. Historical reference you are apparently not very knowledgeable about if you think how spies dressed is some great mystery, but your comment is essentially a non-sequitor if you weren't trying to defend Eva from design criticism on historical basis.

As for the rest of your post....



I think most people would agree that Eva's visual design is better suited for her role in the story in a pulpy way, but it's not really Eva herself that's being criticized, it's Kojima. Any argument of artistic integrity loses water when you realize that he would have sexually objectified her whether she was a seductive spy, a plain scientist, a sniper in the arctic, a military freedom fighter, or even a traumatized child soldier. Sexualizing women to such an extent that it effectively objectifies them is just what Kojima does in his games. Eva sexualization fitting her role in MGS3 comes off, at best, a fortunate coincidence.

And even then, it's not like the seductive spy is a trope that HAS to be played in this way. It would actually be far more interesting and intimate if she had seduced Snake not by constantly flaunting her body at him, but by specifically creating an artificial personality that, for him personally, was attractive in a deeper emotional way. If anything, she comes across as desperate and bordering on incompetent as a seductress when Snake is consistently disinterested whenever she gets half naked to no effect. Snake gets involved with her when they've completed the mission, becoming comrades in arms, and she should have picked up on that being the key to his heart, dropped the sex kitten act, and angled for that way earlier.

But then the player wouldn't have been to oogle her as much, would they? That's the REAL reason she's designed like that.
A+ post. Especially the bolded.
 

Rhaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
888
I have never liked Kojima. One of the main reasons is how he portrays women in his games. Take the Boss in MGS3 for example. Strong and an authoritative figure, yet look at her shitty design after the prologue. Same with Eva.
latest

And don't get me started on Quiet. Or the Beauty and the Beast unit in MGS4.
Haven't played MGS and MGS2 games, so can't comment about them.

What is Wrong with Boss outfit post prologue ?

vFrJXad.jpg
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,882
Finland
What is Wrong with Boss outfit post prologue ?

vFrJXad.jpg
Nothing much because somebody probably said no to Kojima, or atleast questioned him.
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According to Hideo Kojima, she was created specifically to be a motherly character in order to emphasize the maternity theme that he was going for. This is further reflected in The Boss' original design, in which one of her breasts was exposed. The design also featured a snake tattoo around her chest. This was so that when she fired a gun, it would appear that the snake was laughing. It's based on a legend that says that if someone sees a laughing snake, it means that their life is about to be over. Ultimately, this design was scrapped.
 
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Rhaya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
888
This
240

Unless I'm wrong, most of the game she is using it like that.
You're wrong .

She keeps that suit zipped up throughout the game each time she appears.

The only point she has it like that in the picture is at her bossfight at the end of the game to show the scar she got from giving birth to her son.
(Though one could question why she didn't zip it back up afterwards )
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,304
As a character Eva is meant to be a seductress.
That'd be a defense of her characterization, not her design. There's nothing wrong with having a seductress/spy-who-uses-sexuality type of character; no one said anything about that. But only a dumbass with the mind of a hormonal teenager like Kojima would think this translates to a woman walking around with her tits out all the time. He's probably all "that's how it works, right"? lol
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Ok, after watching cutscenes of MGS3, you guys are right about her bodysuit. Seeing that character art, made me think she always used the bodysuit unzipped.
 
(Though one could question why she didn't zip it back up afterwards )
The scar turns into a snake upon her death. Would have been a bit difficult to show with the dress closed. And maybe she wanted to show off the scar even more, instead of just showing it shortly, cause it underlines the way her life took. (I gave a character of mine a belly top for similar reasons.)
But in the whole picture of Kojima's characterization this is surely a bit thin. Sadly the whole MSG series is full of iffy characters, female and male ones. Well, I love The Boss and am just happy she turned out the way she did. Dodged a close bullet there.
 

Moogle

Top Mog
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,765
resetera: i can excuse blatant hatred of women, but i draw the line at supporting trump

Please don't let them bait you into getting banned in that thread (you know who) :( I don't comment much, but I really appreciate and enjoy your contributions in this thread and others. I'm tired of all my reports of blatant antagonism being ignored without a response and seeing women leaving or opting to self-ban out of here to get away from it.

jw does this thread have a discord or anything?
 

Deleted member 49179

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2018
4,140
The scar turns into a snake upon her death. Would have been a bit difficult to show with the dress closed. And maybe she wanted to show off the scar even more, instead of just showing it shortly, cause it underlines the way her life took. (I gave a character of mine a belly top for similar reasons.)
But in the whole picture of Kojima's characterization this is surely a bit thin. Sadly the whole MSG series is full of iffy characters, female and male ones. Well, I love The Boss and am just happy she turned out the way she did. Dodged a close bullet there.

You know, MGS 3 has been my favorite Metal Gear since I first played it when it came out (around 2005 I think?) But in 2018 – nearly 2019 now! – I believe we ought to ask if there aren't other (better) ways to show life's hardship, or to convey themes like motherhood without having a character unzips her shirt all the way down to show her scar... which also conveniently gives a great view at her boobs to the players.

And I agree with what you say about Kojima's characterization. In my mind, context always is EVERYTHING. And in this context – like people in this thread already said – we get Eva (which is sharing the same game as the Boss), we get MGS4's Beauty and the Beast unit, we get MGS5's Quiet, etc. So considering this, the Boss is a bit hard to defend when talking about communicating motherly themes through a fictional character.
 
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PaperSparrow

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,020
I remember someone here talking about a Japanese game where the writers or character designers were told to make a female character act more cute or something.

Anyone remember which game that was?
Late to the answer here, but it was indeed Persona 5.

Hashino said, "all female characters should basically be on the cute side". In their initial designs, Takemi was "unapproachable, with the eyes of a killer", Ohya was "not all that cute", and Sae was "scary" and older (Though Sae's design was said to have changed because she was initially going to be the MC's guardian and they didn't think he'd live with someone that scary). Kawakami was the only adult woman designed without cuteness in mind, the maid outfit being her cute look.

I dread a P5 rerelease that makes Sae romanceable. I have enough of a love/hate relationship with that game as it is.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
Yeah. I have pretty mixed feelings on a number of fronts, but it's gorgeous and fun and doesn't overstay its welcome, so it's probably worth playing.
Haven't played it, but it's much more visually arresting than about 99% of games on the market right now. And from the trailer it looks like it has Journey sliding. Will probably buy at some point over the winter break.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
Could u post about those fronts if you dont mind?
Sure. For a game that's abstractly but thoroughly about feminine energy, it's weird that none of the devs were women. Specifically, it's about a woman going through stages of grief after losing some sort of female relation or role model, and how she regains her sense of self. But it's so pretentious. It gives each of the surmised stages of grief a color and fills in that stage of the world with that color. There's no real meaning except what you project onto it. And then for basically no reason there are statues of naked women all over the place, most depicted in some stage of grief. None of them are very pornographic, but it doesn't mean anything. It's just sad women being frozen in their sadness. For no reason. Which brings me back to wondering why none of the devs are women. If you look on their site apparently it's just a group of guys who were friends and wanted to make a game, but it raises the question of why this is the game they wanted to make. What are they even trying to say except that grief can be beautiful when artistically rendered, and especially in the socially acceptable female form of grief?

Ask yourself when we'll ever get a game about a sad dude who runs around being sad about the loss of some important male figure in his life (e.g. his dad or husband) and as he runs around there are statues of naked dudes crying. And all the devs were women.
 

JarrodL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
247
How do this thread's regulars feel about scenes where the outfit is sexual, but not necessarily out of place, like the character shown waking up in thong underwear in last Cyberpunk gameplay trailer? The game is set in a (post-)modern world and that does not feel like it does not belong there. But I'm a straight guy, so what do I know.

Kind of related: sorry I'm LTTP but I want to respond to part of the OP which made me cringe somewhat:
[*]"wHaT iF sHe ChOsE tO wEaR iT????????" she's not fucking real you drooling bottomfeeder, she can't decide anything because she's a fictional construct!!!! she's a bunch of pixels!!!! she has no agency!!!!
I feel like the rebuttal here is missing the point of the "What if she chose...?". It is certainly true, but - as I'm sure you realize - this logic applies to any character in any outfit simply by the virtue of them being a character in a game. And if you follow this train of logic to its conclusion, then you're refusing game developers any right to use sexual outfits in any games, period. And while I understand your reasons for that, please also understand that people making games live in a real world and when they decide "what would this character wear under these circumstances?" they are going to use the real world as their inspiration.

And I don't know about you, but I live in the world where women sometimes choose to wear sexual outfits. A week ago a girl in the store near my house chose to wear no bra under her blouse. Just a few days ago, Kendall Jenner chose to show up at the Fashion Awards red carpet in a transparent dress with no bra and just a thong underneath. When I was in high school, half of an entire row of girls sitting in front of my desk were choosing to wear thong underwear, and they were quite casual about it. I don't want to sound like a creep, but as a straight guy you tend to notice such things, whether you want to or not.

The point is, by using this rebuttal, you are kind of refusing the developers their right to portray the world in their work as they see it in real life. Which ... does not seem reasonable to me?

I'm sorry if this post offends somebody, it wasn't my intention. Just wanted to get this off my chest.

P.S. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about fringe cases like Quiet's outfit or games with japanese mail bikini style of armor. Those are not excusable.
 
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