Interesting talk about fashion in games
https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025774/Why-Fashion-in-(Most)-Games
https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025774/Why-Fashion-in-(Most)-Games
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Why women criticise sexualised character designs |OT2| I have no pants and I must scream (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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At first I thought it was sarcasm... and now... >.>
As a person who used to do archery and as a person who has studied historical archery, it's worth nothing that a lot of people simply didn't have a lot of the extras associated with archery. Not entirely by their own fault, in many cases due to conscription they simply didn't have the option and worked with what they had. Additionally, most archers tended to build up callouses on their fingers, much like modern guitarists, and thus would have some level of resistance regardless of whether or not they were wearing appropriate attire. Even so, for extended periods of combat (which didn't actually happen all that often outside of siege warfare), armguards and other forms of bracers certainly helped. Though again, from a historical perspective, particularly up until around the 1400s or so, most groups were highly mixed so the actual styles and types of things worn could vary greatly due to the likelihood that there would be a fairly high amount of diversity among people practicing archery (as many of them were highly migratory due to transient hunting).
As a person who used to do archery and as a person who has studied historical archery, it's worth nothing that a lot of people simply didn't have a lot of the extras associated with archery. Not entirely by their own fault, in many cases due to conscription they simply didn't have the option and worked with what they had. Additionally, most archers tended to build up callouses on their fingers, much like modern guitarists, and thus would have some level of resistance regardless of whether or not they were wearing appropriate attire. Even so, for extended periods of combat (which didn't actually happen all that often outside of siege warfare), armguards and other forms of bracers certainly helped. Though again, from a historical perspective, particularly up until around the 1400s or so, most groups were highly mixed so the actual styles and types of things worn could vary greatly due to the likelihood that there would be a fairly high amount of diversity among people practicing archery (as many of them were highly migratory due to transient hunting).
Despite the drying up of my skin on the fingers , I still get burnt when using the Mongolian Composite despite good gloves.
And again Fantasy Strike is happening in modern day era , where Jaina can have acccess to appropriate protective gear for her style of bow ...
(Hell in canon she is even depicted as not particularly be aching for money so even charactecrisation wise they kind of have no excuse here )
Sorry to be a bit of a stickler but like I said I'm equal parts happy to see a Mongolian Composite in the hand of a woman for once (not that often that you see it happening ) and seeing the gear being so wrong just plain destroy my joy as quickly as it rose up ...
That's why it make me so frustrated...
How can you get it so right and yet so wrong at the same time.
PS : In case it wasn't clear I'm not talking about the traditionnal mongolian recurve bow , but the exact opposite philosophy among altaic tribes , the composite fusion between the recurve and the Tuvan war long bow , that they call composite that they invented in the 1800's for celebratory competitive events amongst each other tribes ... And Jaina is using one such celebratory competitive bow
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Not gonna claim to have much knowledge about newer history, as my knowledge is more from 1400s backwards. So uh, I trust that? lol
That said, I'm surprised a bow used for celebratory purposes would be used in combat at all, especially if its purpose is ritualistic in nature...
Also wasn't aware the Fantasy Strike game was depicted as modern, but given the characters that seems really weird (costume-wise).
Lum is a Hotel Groom that works for a Casino in Fantasy Strikes world equivalent of modern day Macao ;)
And in Lum's stage you not only see modern day Jackpots and pachislots , you even see arcade cabinets
Jaina is just a young Tuvan Orphan girl that has been raised by Master Yomi ( who is filthy rich within game lore so her havinng crappy unfitted protection gear is inexcuseable especially given how loving and caring for her Master Yomi is depicted ... )
PS : Jaina's clothing is a nod to what Tuvan female archers are wearing during those rapid fire aiming competitions that they hold to celebrate the return of spring and the melting of the Tes (the main river around which Tuvan tribes gravitates )
Hell know what let me share the song in honor of the goddess Elsen Tes to celebrate the melting of the ice caps of the river Tes that first song in the video that's what men sings right before women are the first to compete in archery competition , before they take their turn.
So this song is legit their Olympic Anthem of sorts that is also a celebration of the arrival of Spring :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUxyh1HTssU
In other words I'm not frustrated out of the blue the creators clearly did their homework , and know damn well what they're referencing and I take issue with the liberties they have taken because well they just don't make any logical sense...
PS 2 : Also here have a look at a commemorative 7 year winning streak bowin arm tatoo
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User Banned (1 Week): Dismissing Concerns Surrounding Sexualization
I honestly don't think the huge majority of female gamers (outside of places like this board) care very much about this topic. That being said, game characters being used as spank material is stupid & weird. I just want fun, interesting characters that I can relate to. They can also be pleasant to look at without being ultra-sexualized.
Liana Kerzner is definitely a great source of objective analysis on topics like this. I think, in the end, it comes down to finding a happy medium. There's definitely a line between a female character showing off her figure because she supposed to be strong & independent and a female character whose just a sex object. The thing is, you need to analyze the character as a whole before you can make an assessment on that.
lol
My man... if you apply even the most basic logic to the question of "how much do women care about their representations in the games they play?", you should very quickly realize why this is a very, very bad takeaway.
I'd love to see it atleast, I think I've missed it.
Edit: Nevermind! Found it
Edit 2: And I actually have read it before too =D Nevertheless, it's rather encouraging.
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Indeed that's encouraging and again going back on Jaina's design . Although I'm a bit miffed with their weird desing choices at least Sirlin Games went above and beyond to depict a bow that was created by Tuvan women for spring archery competitions between Tuvans and Mongols and Uighurs , gave it to a woman in the roster , and unexpected of the unexpected they bothered to depict the protective gear .
The fact that they bothered at all is a good sign....
I'm just mad frustrated that they created a fairly non sensical set of padding and gloving and sleeving that's all.
But hey at least they depict a Jaina that bothers to put on protective gear.
Go back on female archer designs from a decade ago I dare you to find one that bothered with at least a leather forearm protection....
I really shouldn't dabble outside this forum to read anything gaming related. On another forum in a thread about Nether Realms interview regarding the less sexualized female characters of MK, where they say how those are more respectful and mature and they don't regret the change. Instead of just accepting this to be the wish of the developers, the OP frames it to be because "people are just too easily offended". All the first replies also chime in how it's because "outrage culture". This really, really pisses me off. I saw the same with Battlefield, while even the higher ups quite clearly explained even their own very personal motivations for inclusion of women. Why can't they even believe that good things happen because sometimes people get better and not because they're "forced" to do better.
Isnt "female gamers" perfectly acceptable to use, it's not the same as "females"? Female gamers also consist women who aren't yet, well women. Girls and women.
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Heh, this is a pretty silly derail on some level. On the other hand, it's great to see someone actually talking about Fantasy Strike, because it's a game I like and it's really fun overall (including my now-standard "seriously, even if you don't play fighting games, you can play this one")! I honestly had no idea about Jaina's bow actually being similar to a real style, which is pretty cool to me, at least. My headcanon is, I dunno, the arrows and string are made of magic fire, so maybe it doesn't harm her in the same way that letting go of a shell in Mario 3 when you're right next to a wall is safe until it bounces off the wall and no longer overlaps Mario's sprite. ; )
Actually, come to think of it, it's kind of a very cool touch of them to actually give Jaina "full HP" instead of just automatically going "women in fighting games always get fewer HP."
I think it's probably better to say it doesn't really take place in a modern-day setting, so much as a sort of Avatar: TLA-style pre-industrialized combination of Generic European-ish Fantasy Setting and Generic Asian-ish Fantasy Setting with deliberate anachronisms thrown in as the creators deem amusing.
For what it's worth, the character designs in FS are generally a lot less "horny" overall than the ones in Yomi (I remember joking in Discord back when Valerie was added that "hooray, she has finally scratched together the money to afford enough cloth to cover her whole body"), since the ace/super art was done by Genzoman — and when this topic came up in Discord, it was mentioned that the results in Yomi were AFTER they asked Genzoman to tone it down, so now I have a sort of dark curiosity about what the original designs looked like. 👀
Actually, come to think of it, it's kind of a very cool touch of them to actually give Jaina "full HP" instead of just automatically going "women in fighting games always get fewer HP."
I think it's probably better to say it doesn't really take place in a modern-day setting, so much as a sort of Avatar: TLA-style pre-industrialized combination of Generic European-ish Fantasy Setting and Generic Asian-ish Fantasy Setting with deliberate anachronisms thrown in as the creators deem amusing.
For what it's worth, the character designs in FS are generally a lot less "horny" overall than the ones in Yomi (I remember joking in Discord back when Valerie was added that "hooray, she has finally scratched together the money to afford enough cloth to cover her whole body"), since the ace/super art was done by Genzoman — and when this topic came up in Discord, it was mentioned that the results in Yomi were AFTER they asked Genzoman to tone it down, so now I have a sort of dark curiosity about what the original designs looked like. 👀
If you're roasting me for using "female archer design" this was as oppsoed to "male archers designs" (because ironically when it comes to dudes using a bow on the other hand oh you yeah they bothered to have protective gear . But when it was a woman archer all of a sudden protective gear went down the drain for some weird reason ... )
Oh, no, I'm not really intending to roast or anything! I actually kind of dig and understand the sort of very detailed familiarity with a very specific thing, and there's certainly something to be said for loss of suspension of disbelief due to intimate familiarity with a thing (I had a moment or two with how computers were depicted in Captain Marvel, for instance, which was pretty much my only beef with an otherwise very fun and entertaining movie).
EDIT: evidently someone else posted right when I did. Sorry for the confusion!
EDIT: evidently someone else posted right when I did. Sorry for the confusion!
No worries it's all good and yeah I'm just bummed out that the protective gear is not true to life while all of the rest is sooo damn close to real life experience with modern mogolian composite ...
Like for real they did their homework real good . That's why I'm so frustated about the misgivings because the rest is so perfect like gaaaaaaah whhhyyyyy
Normally sure but when it's used by Mister 18 posts who came in here to tell us that nobody cares about this, then I'm a little less inclined to believe they're saying it in good faith.
Hahahaha oh maaaan I get that feeling. Maybe once it hits full release and they start selling cosmetics like costumes, they'll do a "proper protective gear" version. I mean, she IS canonically supposed to be pretty reckless, after all ; )
Oh right, that's understandable. Didn't think to check the post count. It's definitely dismissive attitude.
Edit: Here's the survey too since it was mentioned if anyone has missed it https://medium.com/@Electronic_Arts/what-inclusion-means-to-players-db4522bdd8a0
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Hello there lemming #3838927.
So, mods, when are we getting the "you must have this many posts on Era before posting in this thread" restriction we were talking about earlier?
That would be cool if an alternate was gear accurate indeed .
Because yes she is a feisty woman , but Master Yomi is a very loving adoptive father from what we see so far , and I can't imagine him letting her train without proper gear.
Maybe I'm porjecting too much but really he does seem like a very nurturing adoptive father sooo why letting his daughter train unprotected .
(sorry to be stubborn about this one but they called for that criticism by making Master Yomi looks like a tender father )
If anything, the promotion are for the others, not for Granblue. Probably one of the biggest franchises of japan in this decade. Other Cygames franchises can't even catch up even if still fairly popular as well.
*googles Liana Kerzer*
(since it gets cut: the title of the second one is "A Challenge to Anita Sarkeesian: Listen and Believe #GamerGate")
"Great source of objective analysis".
yeah i hear this christina hoff sommers lady is a pretty down-to-earth feminist who doesn't hate men u should totally check her out she's objective not like those crazy SJWs amirite LOL
Isn't it strange that most of the women video makers that write about video games who don't agree with Anita , the ones that are sensibles are the ones that never made a video titled "why Anita is wrong" ....
You know the ones that disagree with her by simply not even adressing her existence and doing their own thing ...
I'm just sayin' folks ...
Man or woman if the video title can be reformulated in "why anita is wrong" just move along there's nothing of value to be seen on that channel ...
You know the ones that disagree with her by simply not even adressing her existence and doing their own thing ...
I'm just sayin' folks ...
Man or woman if the video title can be reformulated in "why anita is wrong" just move along there's nothing of value to be seen on that channel ...
"Great source of objective analysis" = "holds my exact same shitty views".
News at 11, of course.
I think it's fair to criticize and discuss invidual points and examples in her videos like with anyone else, but it just usually doesn't stop there. "Look this one thing is debatable, so she's wrong about everything and a scammer, she's not even a REAL gamer, she's a thief and a cheat, she should burn, shall our boners be strong!" Just like the title of that Kerzner video is really hyperbolic. If someone else criticizing video games would make you stop writing about them, good riddance please do. Stop with any videos too.
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Most women who write video essays about video games I follow don't exactly agree with Anita and are critical of her , but barely bother to mention her at all they are way too busy putting their point of view together and argue their points .
You can refute arguments without even mentionning them just by making a more compeliing case of your own not even adressin anyone else ...
Those two video thumbnails alone are enought to tell me that nothing of value will be part of those videos I don't even need to click I already know that it will be a net loss of my time.
Yeah that's very true. Insted of doing a "response" video to something which never asked for your response, just adress the issue on your own way. Not "I calmly DESTROY Anita Sarkeesian", or how it goes.
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Wow! Who could have guess that the guy who was dismissive of this topic was into GamerGate? 🙄
He was downplaying the want for female representation in the medium, later citing gamergate-type youtubers as objective sources of analysis on the matter. His ilk isn't wanted here.
This doesn't look like a Japanese game is it? From the title I assume it's korean.
LOL at the ass cheeks slapping each other! And she's wearing high heels without the heels. Her feet just look hideous. Like horse feet.
Telling the women in this thread what women think and feel, then posting a Gamergater's videos as a "great source of objective analysis"? Yeah, pretty shit form (and also typical) of an account with less than 20 posts in the whole site to make this their hill to die on.
Speaking of which, you may want to perhaps post more than 7 times total on a board before shitting on moderation. :D God are you guys transparent. :D
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Representation and objectification
Okay, so I'm going to make the assumption that you are asking this in good faith, and am going to try and explain it to you as best I can.
First, despite your or that poster's apathy or personal anecdotes, representation and its quality matters. This should not be shocking, video games are just one of many commercial storytelling mediums that have had to confront this fact. Movies, television, even comics and novels have had their depictions of gender, race, and sexuality scrutinized. Video games are the latecomer, and as the medium has evolved and become bigger industry, it starts to get held to a higher standard of entertainment. This means, basic obvious objectification is no longer free from criticism.
Representation also is a way to challenge some of the more toxic elements of video game culture. If you haven't been paying attention, the past year has seen several news outlets pointing out how video game communities are being used to radicalize young men. This is not a problem that just sprung up over night. It is the product of years of sexist advertising, of prioritizing and empowering the white male experience at the cold of almost all other perspectives.
Games are an interesting medium, more than movies or comics or television, they invite players to inhabit the skins of people different than them. It can promote empathy and sympathy for characters whose lives and experiences are vastly different than your own. Representation doesn't just allow women and people of color or LGBTQ players to see themselves validated in the broader culture, it allows people who might otherwise not think about these groups to connect with them.
Objectification can damage good representation though. If a woman is presented more as meat to lusted over, then the character is rarely taken seriously, by either the story itself or the player. That is not the same as saying sex positive characters can't exist, but the subject is complicated. Factors like the male gaze of the camera, how well the character's personality is developed have to be taken into account. The worst possible outcome of constant objectification is when it is considered not just normal, but the standard for female representation. You can see this problem in how people are reacting to MK11's designs and how it is an attack on "boner culture". Anything less than a total sexpot is treated as prudish and is likened to forcing the characters to wear burkas. To summarize, rampant objectification has the side effect of warping the expectations and standards that designs for women have.
Finally we come to the elephant in the room, Gamergate. The poster you are defending praised a gamergater as an objective unbiased source of discussion. Not only is that wrong, it is essentially, supporting a hate group. Gamergate has lead numerous harassment campaigns against women who worked in the industry and games journalism. They have lead successful hate campaigns to get women fired from their jobs, and to make them fear for their lives. Their less radical supporters will frequently speak about how representation should happen "organically" in the industry, and that creators should not have to change their original vision to include any other perspectives in their worlds.
This creates an impossible situation where women are driven out of all areas of the industry due to harassment campaigns. They are shown if they speak up about gender, or sexism, or even just their desire to increase representation, then they will become a potential target. You see the problem? Gamergate demands that only women can create the kinds of representation people on this board ask for, but also does everything it can to drive women out of the industry. It's a hate group that has spent the last several years trying to deplatform women, and propping up its supporters here is the definition of arguing in bad faith.
I apologize for the wall of text, and I don't claim to speak for everyone here. I am trying to voice some of my perspective, as limited and flawed as it might be. There are many wonderful posters on this thread who could give better responses. I hope some of this has been helpful.
fwiw this is the 7-post person you're replying to
And of course the guy is complaining about people being upset that the new Samurai Showdown character completely new to the francise contrary to previous women fighters is more than sexed up a bit ...
SamSho doesn't have a clean slate on that front but out of all Fighting Game series this is one where most female characters were all buisness no sexiness ...
Sooo of course old fans of my generations are upset ...
Jeezus these fucking guys ...
PS : Speaking of which Yay first black woman fighter in the franchise ... Buuuut "god I hope alternate costumes will be less silly looking than this monstrosity" ..
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You're wasting your time with those guys .
Just what are you appologizing for here ? Personnaly I think you've done more than a fine job explaining it all even though we all know they read none of it of course as per usual .
But in the off chance I'm wrong on this last part thanks for having taken the time . This was wonderfully put together and I'm amazed you still have the patience for it .
Y'all really need to start checking the post count on these guys before you start making these long ass posts that they have no intention of ever responding to.
Alternatively, why not threadmark all the great explanations people took their time to write, then copypaste them for each of these occasions? It'd be like bug spray.
And yet those long ass calm and collected posts will in the long run be read by other passer by who'll quietly read them and take some notes.
I've seen a few being convinced by basicaly a long ass reformulation of all the arguments but done in a way that spoke to them better , and althgouh they never responded it made them think .
So you never know. ;)
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