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LiegeWaffle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29
I remember rewatching Tropes vs Women recently and finding myself much less impressed than the first time I watched it, back when it came out. That being said, back then, it caused me to read up more on topic of representation of women in video games, so in that sense, it definitely did its job.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,475
I remember rewatching Tropes vs Women recently and finding myself much less impressed than the first time I watched it, back when it came out. That being said, back then, it caused me to read up more on topic of representation of women in video games, so in that sense, it definitely did its job.
I don't think the early episodes of the series were that good. There were some weird oversights or mistakes (not that I can remember them now, it's been awhile). But that they prompted such a visceral reaction from shitty people proved how necessary videos like those were.
 

Richter1887

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
39,146
It is ok to disagree with Anita (hell I personally disagreed with her Doom comments) but that's where it ends. Insulting, threatning her or even using her as a punching bag for your anti feminist and anti women comments is a whole other story. All she wants is better representation for women, does that mean she deserves all that I mentioned above? Not a chance in hell should that be okay.

It also makes the people doing that shit look like cowards if one woman is able to make so many of them this angry. If you are one of those people then you need to step back and think about beliefs. In any case, what she did for the movement is really great and was really needed since last gen where it seemed everything was having sexualized women. This generation has been a huge step up that's for sure.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Okay, so I'm going to make the assumption that you are asking this in good faith, and am going to try and explain it to you as best I can.

First, despite your or that poster's apathy or personal anecdotes, representation and its quality matters. This should not be shocking, video games are just one of many commercial storytelling mediums that have had to confront this fact. Movies, television, even comics and novels have had their depictions of gender, race, and sexuality scrutinized. Video games are the latecomer, and as the medium has evolved and become bigger industry, it starts to get held to a higher standard of entertainment. This means, basic obvious objectification is no longer free from criticism.

Representation also is a way to challenge some of the more toxic elements of video game culture. If you haven't been paying attention, the past year has seen several news outlets pointing out how video game communities are being used to radicalize young men. This is not a problem that just sprung up over night. It is the product of years of sexist advertising, of prioritizing and empowering the white male experience at the cold of almost all other perspectives.

Games are an interesting medium, more than movies or comics or television, they invite players to inhabit the skins of people different than them. It can promote empathy and sympathy for characters whose lives and experiences are vastly different than your own. Representation doesn't just allow women and people of color or LGBTQ players to see themselves validated in the broader culture, it allows people who might otherwise not think about these groups to connect with them.

Objectification can damage good representation though. If a woman is presented more as meat to lusted over, then the character is rarely taken seriously, by either the story itself or the player. That is not the same as saying sex positive characters can't exist, but the subject is complicated. Factors like the male gaze of the camera, how well the character's personality is developed have to be taken into account. The worst possible outcome of constant objectification is when it is considered not just normal, but the standard for female representation. You can see this problem in how people are reacting to MK11's designs and how it is an attack on "boner culture". Anything less than a total sexpot is treated as prudish and is likened to forcing the characters to wear burkas. To summarize, rampant objectification has the side effect of warping the expectations and standards that designs for women have.

Finally we come to the elephant in the room, Gamergate. The poster you are defending praised a gamergater as an objective unbiased source of discussion. Not only is that wrong, it is essentially, supporting a hate group. Gamergate has lead numerous harassment campaigns against women who worked in the industry and games journalism. They have lead successful hate campaigns to get women fired from their jobs, and to make them fear for their lives. Their less radical supporters will frequently speak about how representation should happen "organically" in the industry, and that creators should not have to change their original vision to include any other perspectives in their worlds.

This creates an impossible situation where women are driven out of all areas of the industry due to harassment campaigns. They are shown if they speak up about gender, or sexism, or even just their desire to increase representation, then they will become a potential target. You see the problem? Gamergate demands that only women can create the kinds of representation people on this board ask for, but also does everything it can to drive women out of the industry. It's a hate group that has spent the last several years trying to deplatform women, and propping up its supporters here is the definition of arguing in bad faith.

I apologize for the wall of text, and I don't claim to speak for everyone here. I am trying to voice some of my perspective, as limited and flawed as it might be. There are many wonderful posters on this thread who could give better responses. I hope some of this has been helpful.
Hi Timedesk, this was a really interesting post on objectification/representation , do you (or anyone else!) mind if I add it as a threadmark for ease of reference?

I remember when we got to the end of the last thread and some of us thought it would have been good to keep notes of reference posts like this, do let me know if you see any that you think could be archived as such.
 
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Icemonk191

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,814
Alternatively, why not threadmark all the great explanations people took their time to write, then copypaste them for each of these occasions? It'd be like bug spray.
Yeah that would be a smart idea!
And yet those long ass calm and collected posts will in the long run be read by other passer by who'll quietly read them and take some notes.
I've seen a few being convinced by basicaly a long ass reformulation of all the arguments but done in a way that spoke to them better , and althgouh they never responded it made them think .
So you never know. ;)

To be clear I think all these long type posts are great and like you said are great for other people to read, it's just that I feel bad for the ones who make these great posts knowing that the person they're responding to doesn't give a shit.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
It is ok to disagree with Anita (hell I personally disagreed with her Doom comments) but that's where it ends. Insulting, threatning her or even using her as a punching bag for your anti feminist and anti women comments is a whole other story. All she wants is better representation for women, does that mean she deserves all that I mentioned above? Not a chance in hell should that be okay.

It also makes the people doing that shit look like cowards if one woman is able to make so many of them this angry. If you are one of those people then you need to step back and think about beliefs. In any case, what she did for the movement is really great and was really needed since last gen where it seemed everything was having sexualized women. This generation has been a huge step up that's for sure.
Pretty much. I remember disagreeing with her when, after praising the first FIFA to feature women's teams, said they needed to include mixed gender soccer teams next. FIFA, needless to say, aims to be as close to the real thing as possible and there are no professional soccer teams with mixed genders (for good reasons that's a topic for another day). She showed a big blind spot in her otherwise well produced content. Were FIFA not a sim and instead aimed for more arcadey fantasy soccer (think Mario Strikers which did have women playing with guys) then I'd be on board though.

Her videos were generally very well done and researched and we've come a long way since then, that doesn't mean I had to agree with everything. But that's where things should've ended of course instead of harassing and making death threats.
 
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timedesk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,937
Just what are you appologizing for here ? Personnaly I think you've done more than a fine job explaining it all even though we all know they read none of it of course as per usual .
But in the off chance I'm wrong on this last part thanks for having taken the time . This was wonderfully put together and I'm amazed you still have the patience for it .

Thanks for the kind words. I apologized because I knew the post was long, and often I can drift a bit off topic. Representation means a lot to me. I grew up being frequently frustrated with the role women had in anime and JRPGs, but didn't always have the language to understand why I was so frustrated. It wasn't until I got a bit older that I recognized that what was frustrating me was things like strict adherence to gender roles, or fanservice that came at the expense of the character. One of the few positive changes in the past few years is that some game developers are slowly changing with the times, and certain subsets of nerd culture are becoming more inclusive. It's slow going, but it is great to see threads like this with so many people passionate about seeing things improve.

Hi Timedesk, this was a really interesting post on objectification/representation , do you (or anyone else!) mind if I add it as a threadmark for ease of reference?

I remember when we got to the end of the last thread and some of us thought it would have been good to keep notes of reference posts like this, do let me know if you see any that you think could be archived as such.

You can absolutely use my post. This thread has a lot of wonderful posts that could be helpful to people, I think collecting some would be a great idea.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Thanks for the kind words. I apologized because I knew the post was long, and often I can drift a bit off topic. Representation means a lot to me. I grew up being frequently frustrated with the role women had in anime and JRPGs, but didn't always have the language to understand why I was so frustrated. It wasn't until I got a bit older that I recognized that what was frustrating me was things like strict adherence to gender roles, or fanservice that came at the expense of the character. One of the few positive changes in the past few years is that some game developers are slowly changing with the times, and certain subsets of nerd culture are becoming more inclusive. It's slow going, but it is great to see threads like this with so many people passionate about seeing things improve.



You can absolutely use my post. This thread has a lot of wonderful posts that could be helpful to people, I think collecting some would be a great idea.
Thanks!

Anyone looking for timedesk's post in future can find it under threadmarks, 'representation and objectification'.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
I don't think the early episodes of the series were that good. There were some weird oversights or mistakes (not that I can remember them now, it's been awhile). But that they prompted such a visceral reaction from shitty people proved how necessary videos like those were.
Anita did a lot to help the discussion into mainstream, which was much appreciated. She also suffered greatly for doing so as you mention, she's a trooper.

Also thanks to timedesk for taking the time to write a great post.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Thanks for the kind words. I apologized because I knew the post was long, and often I can drift a bit off topic. Representation means a lot to me. I grew up being frequently frustrated with the role women had in anime and JRPGs, but didn't always have the language to understand why I was so frustrated. It wasn't until I got a bit older that I recognized that what was frustrating me was things like strict adherence to gender roles, or fanservice that came at the expense of the character. One of the few positive changes in the past few years is that some game developers are slowly changing with the times, and certain subsets of nerd culture are becoming more inclusive. It's slow going, but it is great to see threads like this with so many people passionate about seeing things improve.
Especially when members of the industry (such as myself) are reading ...
And I know I'm not the only reader of that thread on a regualr basis within the industry (ironically my colleagues seems happy just being silent lurkers ... which makes me feel a bit lonely in this thread ... come gals and guys show your paws every now and then dammit ! )
 

Jerrybeansman

Member
Mar 21, 2019
21
Okay, so I'm going to make the assumption that you are asking this in good faith, and am going to try and explain it to you as best I can.

First, despite your or that poster's apathy or personal anecdotes, representation and its quality matters. This should not be shocking, video games are just one of many commercial storytelling mediums that have had to confront this fact. Movies, television, even comics and novels have had their depictions of gender, race, and sexuality scrutinized. Video games are the latecomer, and as the medium has evolved and become bigger industry, it starts to get held to a higher standard of entertainment. This means, basic obvious objectification is no longer free from criticism.

Representation also is a way to challenge some of the more toxic elements of video game culture. If you haven't been paying attention, the past year has seen several news outlets pointing out how video game communities are being used to radicalize young men. This is not a problem that just sprung up over night. It is the product of years of sexist advertising, of prioritizing and empowering the white male experience at the cold of almost all other perspectives.

Games are an interesting medium, more than movies or comics or television, they invite players to inhabit the skins of people different than them. It can promote empathy and sympathy for characters whose lives and experiences are vastly different than your own. Representation doesn't just allow women and people of color or LGBTQ players to see themselves validated in the broader culture, it allows people who might otherwise not think about these groups to connect with them.

Objectification can damage good representation though. If a woman is presented more as meat to lusted over, then the character is rarely taken seriously, by either the story itself or the player. That is not the same as saying sex positive characters can't exist, but the subject is complicated. Factors like the male gaze of the camera, how well the character's personality is developed have to be taken into account. The worst possible outcome of constant objectification is when it is considered not just normal, but the standard for female representation. You can see this problem in how people are reacting to MK11's designs and how it is an attack on "boner culture". Anything less than a total sexpot is treated as prudish and is likened to forcing the characters to wear burkas. To summarize, rampant objectification has the side effect of warping the expectations and standards that designs for women have.

Finally we come to the elephant in the room, Gamergate. The poster you are defending praised a gamergater as an objective unbiased source of discussion. Not only is that wrong, it is essentially, supporting a hate group. Gamergate has lead numerous harassment campaigns against women who worked in the industry and games journalism. They have lead successful hate campaigns to get women fired from their jobs, and to make them fear for their lives. Their less radical supporters will frequently speak about how representation should happen "organically" in the industry, and that creators should not have to change their original vision to include any other perspectives in their worlds.

This creates an impossible situation where women are driven out of all areas of the industry due to harassment campaigns. They are shown if they speak up about gender, or sexism, or even just their desire to increase representation, then they will become a potential target. You see the problem? Gamergate demands that only women can create the kinds of representation people on this board ask for, but also does everything it can to drive women out of the industry. It's a hate group that has spent the last several years trying to deplatform women, and propping up its supporters here is the definition of arguing in bad faith.

I apologize for the wall of text, and I don't claim to speak for everyone here. I am trying to voice some of my perspective, as limited and flawed as it might be. There are many wonderful posters on this thread who could give better responses. I hope some of this has been helpful.
I didnt think he was right I just thought a ban might be a bit extreme, probably not though
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,410
Beaumont, CA
And of course the guy is complaining about people being upset that the new Samurai Showdown character completely new to the francise contrary to previous women fighters is more than sexed up a bit ...

SamSho doesn't have a clean slate on that front but out of all Fighting Game series this is one where most female characters were all buisness no sexiness ...

Sooo of course old fans of my generations are upset ...

Jeezus these fucking guys ...

PS : Speaking of which Yay first black woman fighter in the franchise ... Buuuut "god I hope alternate costumes will be less silly looking than this monstrosity" ..

I was always kind of wary of SNK making a new Last Blade because the women in that are badass and not sexualized at all, but now I think it'd be a given they'd add a fanservice character.

I also like how you put this:

Okay all this is cool and all now can we have an alternate that's not "Red Light District appropriate" but more "going to crush your punk ass appropriate" pretty please ...

Having someone be all strong and badass and then wearing skimpy clothes for no real reason is the oil and water of character design imo.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I didnt think he was right I just thought a ban might be a bit extreme, probably not though
Resetera at least tries to aim in its moderation to be welcoming of everyone , and also this is a space primarily for gamers to speak and exchange ...

In that spirit the verification is mostly here to singal members of the industry that wants to respond as members of the industry.
Personnaly although I do work in the industry when I come on Era it's as a gamer that I interact with people (although sometimes I overlap ... can't help it, it's human )
And I value harsh moderation that forces me to take a breather. As Sabrina said if you can't take being shown the door and told to not comeback until you cooled off I indeed don't want you in Era's corridors and threads ...
 

Jerrybeansman

Member
Mar 21, 2019
21
Resetera at least tries to aim in its moderation to be welcoming of everyone , and also this is a space primarily for gamers to speak and exchange ...

In that spirit the verification is mostly here to singal members of the industry that wants to respond as members of the industry.
Personnaly although I do work in the industry when I come on Era it's as a gamer that I interact with people (although sometimes I overlap ... can't help it, it's human )
And I value harsh moderation that forces me to take a breather. As Sabrina said if you can't take being shown the door and told to not comeback until you cooled off I indeed don't want you in Era's corridors and threads ...
Yeah that makes sense, sorry this might be a bit off topic but you say you work in the industry may I ask what it is you do im curiouse?
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Having someone be all strong and badass and then wearing skimpy clothes for no real reason is the oil and water of character design imo.
As an intersex person who's been practicing multiple martial arts since childhood and bladed arts and archery I'll refrain from answering this but I'll say the following.
"I don't have an issue with fighters having their sexuality deeply intertwined with their way of fighting and some fighting games have done it sensibly in the past ... the issue I'm taking is that the dominatrix vixen type of intertwining seems to be the only one character designers know and care about , and that's frankly what's tiring .... Also being that fanservicy and self centered as fuck on that subject is also a greatly lost opportunity to have a fairly uncomfortable conversation -yet it's about damn time we have it- about how fighting sports can and WILL have a longterm impact on your sexuality and how it's gonna develop and how sometimes you're not okay with where your brain wanna go on that topic. And how much during teenager years of being a martial artist , your passion for your sport is at complete odds with a really troubled and rocked in all direcctions development of your sexuality for some martial artist teens regardless of gender sex and sexual orientation"

Sorry I didn't wanted to open that can of worms on all yalls but Choppasmith's message made me type it out loud faster than I could stop myself ...

TLDR : for you Choppa no there is some grain of truth in the fanservicy shit with people who actually jump on the mat , problem is only one side of the coin is depicted and that that is what martial artist such as myself we take issue with ...
 
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Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,410
Beaumont, CA
As an intersex person who's been practicing multiple martial arts since childhood and bladed arts and archery I'll refrain from answering this but I'll say the following.
"I don't have an issue with fighters having their sexuality deeply intertwined with their way of fighting and some fighting games have done it sensibly in the past ... the issue I'm taking is that the dominatrix vixen type of intertwining seems to be the only one character designers know and care about , and that's frankly what's tiring .... Also being that fanservicy and self centered as fuck on that subject is also a greatly lost opportunity to have a fairly uncomfortable conversation -yet it's about damn time we have it- about how fighting sports can and WILL have a longterm impact on your sexuality and how it's gonna develop and how sometimes you're not okay with where your brain wanna go on that topic. And how much during teenager years of being a martial artist , your passion for your sport is at complete odds with a really troubled and rocked in all direcctions development of your sexuality for some martial artist teens regardless of gender sex and sexual orientation"

Sorry I didn't wanted to open that can of worms on all yalls but Choppasmith's message made me type it out loud faster than I could stop myself ...

If I touched a personal nerve there, I whole-heartedly apologize :( _| ̄|○


I made a post a while back basically saying that as a plain old cis-het person, I tend to appreciate and gravitate toward characters in a more demisexual way. I don't think I can find the right words exactly, but having characters through various facets (voice, dialog, actions, emotions or lack thereof, and sure, even certain physical traits like hair color and musculature) I find multi-faceted characters like that way more desirable than the waifus that try and show as much as skin as possible and or are tough/cute ("STEP ON ME QUEEN!" ugh). It's the equivalent of jingling keys in front of a baby. Sure a BABY might find that funny, but it's otherwise pedantic.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
You didn't so much touched a nerve than make me want to mention that although the conversation I'm alluding to CAN and SHOULD in part at least take place in this very thread because some of its aspects pertain to representation of women and their sexuality too in video games .... on the other hand my fighter-sexuality is something I'm still not comfortable with at the age of 35 and I know many a woman who don't have a happy sexual side of being on the mat and aren't comfortable talking about it with strangers at ages even higher than me.
Yet video games could and should touch on that very subject and fighting games given that they are these days having story modes where they elaborate on the fighter lives of all those fighters always give a hard pass to touching that topic and yet I feel that gamer parents of kids who practice martial arts could stand to benefit to hear about the long term effects martial arts have on your sexuality and how teenager years are a nightmare for ALL OF US ...

TL:DR Martial Artists men and women often have the convseration about fighter sexuality , but not all of us are comfy having that conversation with non martial artist folk , and I won't have it and "drop that bomb" on yalls if I'm the only one shouldering the convo . Until fellow marital artist (especially women) shows up here this convo will stay a rapid pitch on my part on how much this is a subject that fighting games COULD and SHOULD give some thought about ...
 
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esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,276
I gravitate towards characters that I find interesting. Most designs these days are just so bland. Even as Mortal Kombat is becoming better with its designs, I still feel the designs themselves are uninspired (whereas the designs before were uninspired, offensive and objectifying).
 

crienne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,167
Was trying FF9 out with my new RetroArch settings, and noticed that the town guards in Alexandria seem to have, um, interesting outfits. Looks like they shop at the same place Cammy does.

C5TS9GN.png
 

Deleted member 5334

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,815
Was trying FF9 out with my new RetroArch settings, and noticed that the town guards in Alexandria seem to have, um, interesting outfits. Looks like they shop at the same place Cammy does.

C5TS9GN.png

I always forget about this whenever I playthrough it. It's also so out of place, given how relatively conservative the designs are in general in this game. If I recall, Garnet's Trance did get changed for the HD port, but I was under the impression that was due to CERO related problems. Yet, somehow the above is okay...

Though, on the flip side, we also have Kuja (probably one of the few times you'll see a male character sexualized in Japanese media):

235593-kuja.jpg
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,170
Finished watching this. Really encapsulates a lot of the reasons why all the bland and stupid justifications for the shittier kinds of designs ring completely hollow.

I need to borrow her little section on how information-dense fashion can be. It's kind of depressing how little people tend to recognize and appreciate that aspect of character design.
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,847
Was trying FF9 out with my new RetroArch settings, and noticed that the town guards in Alexandria seem to have, um, interesting outfits. Looks like they shop at the same place Cammy does.

C5TS9GN.png

I think Eiko is a lot worse, and a good example how sexualisation can work even when a character is fully clothed. The most disturbing part here is here age. A six year old has no reason to have a costume design that highlights her breasts, let alone present the illusion of exposing her belly and private parts by wearing a skin tight, flesh tone coloured outfit. Luckily, they darkened the colours a bit for her appearances in other games.

latest
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Was trying FF9 out with my new RetroArch settings, and noticed that the town guards in Alexandria seem to have, um, interesting outfits. Looks like they shop at the same place Cammy does.

C5TS9GN.png
Final Fantasy 9 is so much all over the place in terms of outfits that I stopped giving a damn because my word is every outfit in some way shape or form questionnable.
Even Zidane's outfit should raise some eyebrows ...

On the flipside


This fan art is amazing and reminds me of how much I would kill for a "The Legend of Zelda - insert subtitle" main entry in the series where we go rescue Zelda as per usual , but this time around Link is a woman ...
Like for real am I the only one who wants to play a female Link (and no Linkle doesn't count I want the hero of time the real hero of time to be a woman for once )
 
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Jerrybeansman

Member
Mar 21, 2019
21
I think Eiko is a lot worse, and a good example how sexualisation can work even when a character is fully clothed. The most disturbing part here is here age. A six year old has no reason to have a costume design that highlights her breasts, let alone present the illusion of exposing her belly and private parts by wearing a skin tight, flesh tone coloured outfit. Luckily, they darkened the colours a bit for her appearances in other games.

latest
Crotch windows always look so weird rex from xenoblade 2 has somthing like that too
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,458
This is one example I'll actually disagree on...?

The yellow portion of Eiko's outfit more resembles (fantastical) work chaps than anything sexualizing, IMO, and the chestguard-connector-thing seems more intended for modesty than accentuation. The bodysuit underneath is pink (darker pink in-game, closer to the red turtleneck/sleeve portion), but a very different color either way from her actual skin tone.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but I don't see it.
 

Billy Awesomo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,767
New York, New York
Lum is a Hotel Groom that works for a Casino in Fantasy Strikes world equivalent of modern day Macao ;)

And in Lum's stage you not only see modern day Jackpots and pachislots , you even see arcade cabinets

Jaina is just a young Tuvan Orphan girl that has been raised by Master Yomi ( who is filthy rich within game lore so her havinng crappy unfitted protection gear is inexcuseable especially given how loving and caring for her Master Yomi is depicted ... )

PS : Jaina's clothing is a nod to what Tuvan female archers are wearing during those rapid fire aiming competitions that they hold to celebrate the return of spring and the melting of the Tes (the main river around which Tuvan tribes gravitates )

Hell know what let me share the song in honor of the goddess Elsen Tes to celebrate the melting of the ice caps of the river Tes that first song in the video that's what men sings right before women are the first to compete in archery competition , before they take their turn.
So this song is legit their Olympic Anthem of sorts that is also a celebration of the arrival of Spring :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUxyh1HTssU

In other words I'm not frustrated out of the blue the creators clearly did their homework , and know damn well what they're referencing and I take issue with the liberties they have taken because well they just don't make any logical sense...

PS 2 : Also here have a look at a commemorative 7 year winning streak bowin arm tatoo
45842269_122856058729964_8015885361324991517_n.jpg

As an Mongolian, you've peaked my interest here. Nice tat!
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,025
Final Fantasy 9 is so much all over the place in terms of outfits that I stopped giving a damn because my word is every outfit in some way shape or form questionnable.
Even Zidane's outfit should raise some eyebrows ...

On the flipside


This fan art is amazing and reminds me of how much I would kill for a "The Legend of Zelda - insert subtitle" main entry in the series where we go rescue Zelda as per usual , but this time around Link is a woman ...
Like for real am I the only one who wants to play a female Link (and no Linkle doesn't count I want the hero of time the real hero of time to be a woman for once )

There's some precedent for this to happen in the form of the Japanese only Satellaview game BS The Legend of Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets, although the selectable main character (Boy or Girl) isn't technically "The Hero of Time". I like playing as "Girl" in the Link to the Past randomizer, which is a nice bit of playing pretend that Link is a woman if you're into that.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Again what I want is a legit 3D world Female Link , not Linkle , not an alternate playable character no just Nintendo gving me "Hey this time around the Hero of time our beloved Link well in this incarnation Link is a woman" ...

I don't wanna play pretend , I don't wanna go Breath of the Wild Cosplay style keep the Gerudo set all the time to play pretend again . No I want female Link being for real.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I really wasn't a fan of Linkle's design either, and have never really understood why Link can't be a woman after a dozen games either.

I mentioned it in another thread on the topic but for me the balance of Zelda, Link and Ganon is that they usually represent the Triforce of Wisdom gained through experience, the Triforce of Courage as the player's will to continue on, and the Triforce of Power as the trial/antagonist to overcome. Any two overpower the third, so usually courage tempered by wisdom can overcome and gain power. That's a nice, simple mythic cycle in itself. I don't really see where Link (or Ganon for that matter) needs to be a guy within that, outside of sticking to a template that's been repeated over thirty years. Seeing as the theme of the games continually tries to find new angles on it- Lake Hylia, the settlements, the castle and their communities look wildly different from one game to the next- it seems strange that the one thing lodged as firmly in stone as the Master Sword is that the hero, whose name you can change freely, is a guy.
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I really wasn't a fan of Linkle's design either, and have never really understood why Link can't be a woman after a dozen games either.
I don't mind Linkle as a concept (and design wise I actually dig her) hell having the hero of time having STILL ALIVE family is a cool thing (Linkle is supposed to be Link's sister ) .
I only brought her up because this is not what we've been asking for all along and people at NIntendo know it all too well . This isn't what we want , what we want is for LINK to be a woman .And that's what Nintendo straight up refuses to give us.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,338
I don't mind Linkle as a concept (and design wise I actually dig her) hell having the hero of time having STILL ALIVE family is a cool thing (Linkle is supposed to be Link's sister ) .
I only brought her up because this is not what we've been asking for all along and people at NIntendo know it all too well . This isn't what we want , what we want is for LINK to be a woman .And that's what Nintendo straight up refuses to give us.

I'm fine with them making Link female. With that said, i'm definitely on the side of the fence that would actually prefer for them to make a Legend of Zelda (a mainline one) in which Zelda is actually the main character. But that seems unlikely as long as Aonuma is around the series since he said something along the lines of, 'Well, what would Link do then?'.
 

Platy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,634
Brazil


This fan art is amazing and reminds me of how much I would kill for a "The Legend of Zelda - insert subtitle" main entry in the series where we go rescue Zelda as per usual , but this time around Link is a woman ...
Like for real am I the only one who wants to play a female Link (and no Linkle doesn't count I want the hero of time the real hero of time to be a woman for once )


Useless trivia : By original the artist means this :



A magazine that did some drawings of link to illustrate their pages on the original zelda and ...

There's some precedent for this to happen in the form of the Japanese only Satellaview game BS The Legend of Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets, although the selectable main character (Boy or Girl) isn't technically "The Hero of Time". I like playing as "Girl" in the Link to the Past randomizer, which is a nice bit of playing pretend that Link is a woman if you're into that.

Precedent ?

lEKd99d.png

https://prokopetz.tumblr.com/post/183832460217/agigabyte-prokopetz-the-just-make-your-own

The reincarnation idea fits it perfectly. Hell you could even do like my own fanfic and start the story on a previous link with ganondorf winning and casting a spell to alter the legend. So he reincarnates as a hylian and link reincarnates as a gerudo woman.

or link can simply be a woman in the next zelda game and not anymore in the one after that.
 
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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
I'm fine with them making Link female. With that said, i'm definitely on the side of the fence that would actually prefer for them to make a Legend of Zelda (a mainline one) in which Zelda is actually the main character. But that seems unlikely as long as Aonuma is around the series since he said something along the lines of, 'Well, what would Link do then?'.
I actually do want that TOO , that's the thing I want both and it's both the things that Nintendo don't want to give us and played coy by releasing Linkle in Hyrule Warriors ...
No guys we do want female Link and also at some point given that the title of the series is "The Legend of Zelda" it's about damn time we actaully play as her ...
I want both of those things.
You can have Linkle as a playable character too ... but Linkle isn't what I want and Nintendo knows it all too well ...

Platy trust me I know in fact those drawing were repercuted in french magazines too back in the days ...

So we've been aware of those drawings for long and well ... just give it to me already...
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
The reincarnation idea fits it perfectly. Hell you could even do like my own fanfic and start the story on a previous link with ganondorf winning and casting a spell to alter the legend. So he reincarnates as a hylian and link reincarnates as a gerudo woman.

or link can simply be a woman in the next zelda game and not anymore in the one after that.

Doesn't the official Zelda timeline include three parallel timelines, including one where the Hero of Time fails to defeat Ganondorf?

Of course, three parallel timelines in a lame attempt to fit all the games into one greater mythos is okay, but the Hero of Time being a girl is a step too far.
 

Deleted member 3208

Oct 25, 2017
11,934
Doesn't the official Zelda timeline include three parallel timelines, including one where the Hero of Time fails to defeat Ganondorf?

Of course, three parallel timelines in a lame attempt to fit all the games into one greater mythos is okay, but the Hero of Time being a girl is a step too far.
May I ask why Link reincarnated as a girl is a step too far?
 

Joe2187

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,521
May I ask why Link reincarnated as a girl is a step too far?

Because link has to SAVE the princess not BE the princess...

No wait, because Link is the HERO of time not the HEROINE of time..

...

Would that make girl link be saving the prince? would Ganon be female....but that would make no sense unless all the gerudo were males and only one female was born....and this is getting wierd

Zelda lore is wierd
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,426
Of course, three parallel timelines in a lame attempt to fit all the games into one greater mythos is okay, but the Hero of Time being a girl is a step too far

LOL why?

Link looking so similar across the game has more to do with brand recognition than it does story continuity.

Hell, Zelda looks pretty damn different in each game and she follows the same reincarnation rules he does. Sex and Gender doesn't really matter in the zelda timeline because they've never, EVER, done anything meaningful with the actual characterization of Link and have barely done anything with Zelda, all variations of which lead to her being locked in a room at the end of the game.

It doesn't and has never mattered, so why not make Link a girl? It would literally make zero difference to the plot of the series.

Shit, I play the LTTP randomizer with Popoi from FF, it's fine.


I mean, we still have a weird computer race/society that's intrical to the entire series that they've not even scratched the surface on yet.

They can literally do whatever they want with gender or sex and it would mean nothing. The only time it's ever brought up as an actual plot point is the Gerudos, and other than BOTW, they've never actually done anything interesting with the sex dyconomy.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
LOL why?

Link looking so similar across the game has more to do with brand recognition than it does story continuity.

Hell, Zelda looks pretty damn different in each game and she follows the same reincarnation rules he does. Sex and Gender doesn't really matter in the zelda timeline because they've never, EVER, done anything meaningful with the actual characterization of Link and have barely done anything with Zelda, all variations of which lead to her being locked in a room at the end of the game.

It doesn't and has never mattered, so why not make Link a girl? It would literally make zero difference to the plot of the series.

Shit, I play the LTTP randomizer with Popoi from FF, it's fine.
Is it just me or is anyone else reading that quote as sarcastic? Hence the "lame" attempt part? I dunno, you guys all seem to be reading that they actually think that Link being a girl is a step too far....
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,426
Is it just me or is anyone else reading that quote as sarcastic? Hence the "lame" attempt part? I dunno, you guys all seem to be reading that they actually think that Link being a girl is a step too far....

Welcome to the thread. We actually need /s here because in, oh, let's say 30 minutes, we will get guys in this thread seriously and literally saying it's a step too far..."BECAUSE LORE".
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Welcome to the thread. We actually need /s here because in, oh, let's say 30 minutes, we will get guys in this thread seriously and literally saying it's a step too far..."BECAUSE LORE".
Been in this thread a looooooonnnnnnnnggggggg time but yeah, you're right - too many people are actually being serious when they say stuff like that.
 
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