Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

[Dary]

Yeah. I think this is actually a component of the willingness to slot characters in for humor like that. Pyra has an extremely consistent character in serious moments (and her English voice actress is putting in work with the subtle nuances), but Japanese writing is more than willing to give characters a couple of quirks that're used entirely for one-off (or god help us recurring) gags exclusively for the purpose of levity. As long as it all the pieces that are being laid down come together and coalesce at the dramatic (or humorous) climax, anything goes. Xenoblade 2 is extremely, extremely indicative of this method despite the usual meticulous Takahashi plotting being overwhelmingly present, because while the internals of a given chapter might have serious drama, political intrigue, comedy literally on level with a children's show, weird anime faces and gags, and complete nonsense farcical humor spread across it, it always coalesces in an extremely potent capstone series of setpiece cutscenes, both action and dramatic, that close out the chapter and move the story forward. It's in those Big Moments where the writing and direction most heavily shine.

This structure is also a large part of why the game feels so much like it's from the PS2 era, lost in a time capsule.

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What I'm wondering is whether this rather technical approach to writing - and an emphasis of plot and setpiece over character - is related to some of the shitty characterisation that goes on in Japanese media.

Facepalming design notwithstanding, Ashe is absolutely one of Square's stronger characters, far moreso than Lightning, but her biggest moments generally revolve around conversations, not over-the-top action scenes. Contrast FF15, whose setpieces were like the Matrix and Dragonball Z did a fusion dance, and often came out of nowhere to the point of making no fucking sense...

 

[Htown]

On the topic of characterisation in Japanese games, it's worth bearing in mind this snippet from an interview with Alexander O. Smith earlier in the year, regarding FF12's localisation:

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Man, that thing about characters lacking motivation is my number one problem with a bunch of anime I've seen.

 

[Xaszatm]

What I'm wondering is whether this rather technical approach to writing - and an emphasis of plot and setpiece over character - is related to some of the shitty characterisation that goes on in Japanese media.

Facepalming design notwithstanding, Ashe is absolutely one of Square's stronger characters, far moreso than Lightning, but her biggest moments generally revolve around conversations, not over-the-top action scenes. Contrast FF15, whose setpieces were like the Matrix and Dragonball Z did a fusion dance, and often came out of nowhere to the point of making no fucking sense...

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To be fair, that's more of Yasumi Matsuno writing than just the characters. All of the games in Ivalice, for the most part, emphasize smaller events that have changed the world that have gone unnoticed in the history books. It would make sense that the climax of FFXII is the rejection of a weapon of power rather than an over-the-top action scene. If fits within the context of the Ivalice games. Also, it is personally why it's my favorite final fantasy, even if it does feel like an MMO-lite.

 

[a harmless rabbit]

What I'm wondering is whether this rather technical approach to writing - and an emphasis of plot and setpiece over character - is related to some of the shitty characterisation that goes on in Japanese media.

Facepalming design notwithstanding, Ashe is absolutely one of Square's stronger characters, far moreso than Lightning, but her biggest moments generally revolve around conversations, not over-the-top action scenes. Contrast FF15, whose setpieces where like the Matrix and Dragonball Z did a fusion dance, and often came out of nowhere to the point of making no fucking sense...

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I'm going to lean on the side of "yes" with this. When your culture of writing places a priority on setpieces, writing in general may trend toward it and place heavier emphasis on those huge moments of emotional catharsis to the point where they'll sometimes make small concessions on the logic of getting there. Bad writing, though, will mistake the setpiece being important for the setpiece being all-important, and the road there not mattering at all as long as the setpiece itself is good. Some western media already does this, imagine if we culturally trended more heavily toward emphasizing setpieces than we already do.

This would likely be why, as a general personal trend, good Japanese media tends to be able to get me to cry far more easily than equally good or better western media, but bad Japanese media will sometimes leave me shaking my head and going "What," where its western counterpart will be intelligible but just...bad.

Which isn't to say that deviations don't exist, it's just definitely a cultural trend in writing.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

Seriously, pay attention to the structure of jokes in anime and JRPGs--it's almost the exact same thing every single time. The rules of both concept and delivery are so rigid that it might as well be generated by a web randomizer.

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I remember someone saying something like this on anime and nerd culture as a whole. How a lot of ideas are derived from the existing works instead of originality. It was on a different forum but I'll quote it here.

One of the reasons I really can't stand anime is that it always feels like it's derived from other anime, and once you get into a cycle of turning to your own industry for the majority of your inspiration, reference, and where you pull your ideas and creativity from, it becomes very stale and predictable. It's why I also can't stand styles like steampunk and even traditional high fantasy to a point.

The same problem exists in video games as well, where you have artists pulling from comics, anime and other games instead of looking outside of the "nerd kingdom" to history, culture and art history. I hear about people not getting jobs because they're not as "passionate of gamers" as the team wants them to be, but they might bring something new and valuable with their experience that may be slightly nontraditional.

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[psychowave]

I remember someone saying something like this on anime and nerd culture as a whole. How a lot of ideas are derived from the existing works instead of originality. It was on a different forum but I'll quote it here.

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Totally agree with this. Anime is way too self-referential, to the point where I feel like it's almost impossible to recommend anime to people who aren't already into the medium because I know they simply wouldn't enjoy it.

I think it was Hayao Miyazaki that said that anime doesn't look at real life for inspiration anymore, but instead it looks at other anime. That's why anime characters never act like actual people, but instead act like the 4 or 5 clichés the industry has designed for them.

 

[weemadarthur]

Maybe is not on the sexual alley per say, but I will argue that male designs do can harm someone self steem about their body or looks same as for the woman

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Very possible. Make a thread about it.
It still doesn't equal the entirety-of-value for a male in this society to be reduced to his looks though.

I'm just saying, not every woman sees these sliders as detestable and actually appreciates the added customization. Sure, there are games that don't have the best intentions when adding them but there are some good examples. The character creation in the Comrades expansion for FFXV had all the sliders I mentioned (for both male and female characters) and they were used well and clearly weren't meant for any kind of pandering.

Obviously women can have muscles, but they're not commonly depicted with them. I do find muscles on men attractive and sexy and when creating a male character I'd love to have sliders for muscle tone and such. I'm a bisexual guy so a bulge slider wouldn't make me uncomfortable.

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1. Let these women you keep talking FOR make accounts so they can speak for themselves.
2. Dragon's dogma had great character creation. How did people use it? To create giant-breasted pawns. But that's on the audience.
3. Women not being allowed to have muscles is another indication of this overwhelming problem. Women warriors SHOULD be depicted with muscle. The fact that they often aren't is bad.

 

[Laiza]

On the subject of breast sliders, I actually need breast sliders to get anywhere close to the physiques that I'm most interested in representing in my characters. However, the vast majority of games with breast sliders don't go far enough in the range - specifically, they don't let me get close enough to flat. The default will pretty much always be too large for my tastes, and then the minimum size ends up still too large for my tastes? That's not a good look.

Imagine, for example, trying to get the build of Olympic track runners into a game - you're going to find it's extremely rare for a game to support that option. Not just for the breast size range, mind you, but also in the lack of options for muscle definition. In fact, it's my go-to body build for testing the range of a character creator's sliders. Most of them just can't do it. (If you're curious about the ones that can: Champions Online, Soul Calibur IV & V, and Dragon's Dogma are the only ones that come to mind.) Once again... yes, it says a lot about where the devs' priorities lie when they're designing these things.

I just want to make my characters look like peak athletes. Women capable of doing the ridiculous action-y bullshit these games often require them to do. Is that too much to ask? It shouldn't be.

I remember someone saying something like this on anime and nerd culture as a whole. How a lot of ideas are derived from the existing works instead of originality. It was on a different forum but I'll quote it here.

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Yep. This is a major contributor, I feel, to why Dark Souls feels like such a refreshing take on action RPGs - it's not just the challenge, but the fact that the devs clearly took a significant inspiration from actual human history, while also twisting that history to suit the style and setting they're going for. It's beautiful stuff.

Dragon's Dogma does much the same with western fantasy - specifically, Dungeons & Dragons-style western fantasy. Mind you, this is a genre that sees a lot of reverence in Japanese media, but the way Capcom mimicked so much of D&D's design cues to the point of outright devotion is unique to itself. I can't think of anything else made in Japan that reaches quite the same level. Amusingly, in doing research for the game, Capcom ended up creating a castle city more realistic than a lot of Western devs' renditions of the same. It's something I wish we could see a lot more of from Japan.

 

[psychowave]

On the subject of breast sliders, I actually need breast sliders to get anywhere close to the physiques that I'm most interested in representing in my characters. However, the vast majority of games with breast sliders don't go far enough in the range - specifically, they don't let me get close enough to flat. The default will pretty much always be too large for my tastes, and then the minimum size ends up still too large for my tastes? That's not a good look.

Imagine, for example, trying to get the build of Olympic track runners into a game - you're going to find it's extremely rare for a game to support that option. Not just for the breast size range, mind you, but also in the lack of options for muscle definition. In fact, it's my go-to body build for testing the range of a character creator's sliders. Most of them just can't do it. (If you're curious about the ones that can: Champions Online, Soul Calibur IV & V, and Dragon's Dogma are the only ones that come to mind.) Once again... yes, it says a lot about where the devs' priorities lie when they're designing these things.

I just want to make my characters look like peak athletes. Women capable of doing the ridiculous action-y bullshit these games often require them to do. Is that too much to ask? It shouldn't be.

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Totally agree with this! Also, even outside of character creators, I feel like flat-chested adult women barely exist in video games, even though they're super common in real life.

 

[Baron von Loathsome]

What is stopping people from creating non-sexualuzed designs? Nothing. Apparently they're creating things people want/like. Are you telling me I should not want/like this?

Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

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Not all of us are gonna get the chance to work on a big-budget, Nintendo-published JRPG.

 

[Redcrayon]

I remember someone saying something like this on anime and nerd culture as a whole. How a lot of ideas are derived from the existing works instead of originality. It was on a different forum but I'll quote it here.

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Really interesting, thanks for that.

 

[Redcrayon]

Anime comedy is, well, bad, by the traditional mechanics of comedy. It follows a set of extremely rigid rules from a List of Things That Are Funny and just slots them in, often with few changes. There's an extremely heavy focus on a mix of misunderstandings and something absurd happening and someone present pointing out the absurd or stupid thing. Imagine a cultural understanding of comedy born exclusively from a group of people watching "Who's on First?" and then saying "Ah, yes, so doing exactly this in structure while substituting the topic for another will make people laugh. That is what jokes are." The "female character who not only can't cook but creates absurd, ungodly monstrosities" is one of those "Who's on First?" routines that someone tried once and it made the audience laugh, so now everyone just copies it. Jokes are created by slotting things into the exact, rigid formula, and then once they work the rest of the industry copies them ad nauseum with no nuance. It gets better when they get into escalating farces that spiral into completely unfathomable absurdity, but even that's built on taking the same formula to eleven.

Seriously, pay attention to the structure of jokes in anime and JRPGs--it's almost the exact same thing every single time. The rules of both concept and delivery are so rigid that it might as well be generated by a web randomizer.

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Thanks for the reply, makes a lot of sense .

 

[Laiza]

Totally agree with this! Also, even outside of character creators, I feel like flat-chested adult women barely exist in video games, even though they're super common in real life.

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Yeah, and on top of that, when we are represented, at least in Japanese games, it's usually accompanied by annoying jokes about bodily insecurity that just feel predatory. (Western games just give us basically no representation. If I have to play a literal lizard race to get representation... that's not representation.)

Once again... priorities and such.

 

[Xaszatm]

Yeah, and on top of that, when we are represented, at least in Japanese games, it's usually accompanied by annoying jokes about bodily insecurity that just feel predatory. (Western games just give us basically no representation.)

Once again... priorities and such.

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That or the "flat chested" woman will look like a child, because as we all know, if you're flat-chested, you look prepubescent. /s

Bonus points if its both.

 

[psychowave]

Yeah, and on top of that, when we are represented, at least in Japanese games, it's usually accompanied by annoying jokes about bodily insecurity that just feel predatory. (Western games just give us basically no representation. If I have to play a literal lizard race to get representation... that's not representation.)

Once again... priorities and such.

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Yeah, omg. In Japanese games, whenever a female character gets to have a flat chest, she's either 1. a """loli"""" (yikes yikes yikes) or 2. the butt of a million jokes abour how insecure she is about it. Because god forbid a woman have small breasts and be, y'know, okay with it.

And this feeds into the whole "anime/anime games are too self-referential" thing, imo. You can't have a flat-chested character for the sake of having a flat-chested character. She must also be a tsundere who is jealous of other girls who have bigger breasts than her. It's exhausting.

 

[Xaszatm]

Yeah, omg. In Japanese games, whenever a female character gets to have a flat chest, she's either 1. a """loli"""" (yikes yikes yikes) or 2. the butt of a million jokes abour how insecure she is about it. Because god forbid a woman have small breasts and be, y'know, okay with it.

And this feeds into the whole "anime/anime games are too self-referential" thing, imo. You can't have a flat-chested character for the sake of having a flat-chested character. She must also be a tsundere who is jealous of other girls who have bigger breasts than her. It's exhausting.

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Or, worse, they'll take someone who is D-cup size, and have her be a tsundere who is jealous of other girls who have bigger breasts than her. Because that's totally how women think.

 

[kaytee]

I think we’re generalizing a little too much about Japanese media in this thread, tbh. Even anime. Every country has bad/lazy writing and tired cliches. The truly different & thoughtful stuff often has a smaller audience and doesn’t get as many advertising dollars. Subtle character writing only came into its own on American TV in the past decade imo, and there’s still a lot of schlock. (Which can be fun. No hate.)

Edit: Basically there are common things in anime, but it’s not like they’re ALL ENCOMPASSING is what I’m trying to say lol

 

[RM8]

Also, effin' lol at people saying shirtless buff men are not the same as sexualuzed women. I'd argue it's worse.

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Is it really that hard to google "hot men" and compare those results to your average uggo game character like Kratos or whatever? I truly can't believe this opinion is so common, lol.

 

[spam musubi]

I think this all is a problem with anime (and Japanese games that take inspiration from anime) pandering too directly to the otaku crowd, which is their main market. That's the demo that spends the most money on stuff like this including merch, so that's where they orient their products towards. As such we have this monotonization of the genre. That includes sexual pandering, because that demo is usually teenage males. The problem is when a majority of the works in the genre pander to this, limiting the variety and potential of the diversity of characterizations. It's a real problem with Japanese media in my opinion, and it's gotten worse over the past decade or so. There's a lot to be said there about the economics of the anime industry and why they target this market, but it's interesting that this particular style has gotten so much purchase among Western adults/young adults.

 

[psychowave]

Is it really that hard to google "hot men" and compare those results to your average uggo game character like Kratos or whatever? I truly can't believe this opinion is so common, lol.

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Somewhat related to this, I think it's funny when guys go "BUT DEVELOPERS DON'T KNOW WHAT WOMEN LIKE, IT'S JUST SO DIFFICULT, WOMEN ARE SO ~MYSTERIOUS~, MEN ARE SO MUCH MORE OBVIOUS IN WHAT THEY LIKE" when all you have to do is, like, ask. Or look at fandom content made by women.

 

[RM8]

Somewhat related to this, I think it's funny when guys go "BUT DEVELOPERS DON'T KNOW WHAT WOMEN LIKE, IT'S JUST SO DIFFICULT, WOMEN ARE SO ~MYSTERIOUS~, MEN ARE SO MUCH MORE OBVIOUS IN WHAT THEY LIKE" when all you have to do is, like, ask. Or look at fandom content made by women.

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It's kind of disingenuous. Is it really a secret that men considered to be conventionally attractive look more like Chris Hemsworth, David Beckham, Hugh Jackman, Channing Tatum, etc. and not like freaking Zangief? Lol.

 

[kliklik]

I think this all is a problem with anime (and Japanese games that take inspiration from anime) pandering too directly to the otaku crowd, which is their main market. That's the demo that spends the most money on stuff like this including merch, so that's where they orient their products towards. As such we have this monotonization of the genre. That includes sexual pandering, because that demo is usually teenage males. The problem is when a majority of the works in the genre pander to this, limiting the variety and potential of the diversity of characterizations. It's a real problem with Japanese media in my opinion, and it's gotten worse over the past decade or so. There's a lot to be said there about the economics of the anime industry and why they target this market, but it's interesting that this particular style has gotten so much purchase among Western adults/young adults.

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Isn't it true though that the otaku are actually looked down on in Japan? It's apparently a common trope to represent an otaku guy as being, well, gross, perverted, obese, poorly socialised, repulsive to women, unattractive, etc.

 

[a harmless rabbit]

Yeah, omg. In Japanese games, whenever a female character gets to have a flat chest, she's either 1. a """loli"""" (yikes yikes yikes) or 2. the butt of a million jokes abour how insecure she is about it. Because god forbid a woman have small breasts and be, y'know, okay with it.

And this feeds into the whole "anime/anime games are too self-referential" thing, imo. You can't have a flat-chested character for the sake of having a flat-chested character. She must also be a tsundere who is jealous of other girls who have bigger breasts than her. It's exhausting.

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For the record I'm going to be extremely, existentially, burn-it-down angry if they play this with Morag in Xenoblade 2. It's my biggest fear about the game.

There's been no implications that they will, they haven't even taken most of the low hanging fruits with Pyra, but my god if they do...

You do not make a character with such a jaw-droppingly iconic entrance into the story and then ruin it with that shit later on.

You don't.

You can't.

I can tolerate Pyra, between how much the game paradoxically stumbles over itself to minimize the blatant fanservice and the fact that I actually like elements of her design a lot (the colors are great, I love the techno-anime aesthetic in general, and the scarf tails are super rad) despite the fact that she has no clothing on her back, but if they ruin Morag I'm going to riot.

 

[Dary]

I remember someone saying something like this on anime and nerd culture as a whole. How a lot of ideas are derived from the existing works instead of originality. It was on a different forum but I'll quote it here.

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This is something I've seen a lot of in writing groups/communities, too. Instead of asking, for example, "What inspired Fullmetal Alchemist?" they'll simply skim the surface and develop an idea about wizard brothers, one cursed to inhabit a suit of armour... It gets to a point where I feel uncomfortable talking about the usual writery things because everyone is so bloody wrapped up in copying their favourite game/anime/comic/book without the slightest interest in what drove the author to write what they did...

It gets especially bad when they're trying to write things like a shounen-style fight scene in prose...

See also: stories loaded with geek references and injokes. Christ, we get it already: you're insecure and in desperate need of validation. But you realise that, to everyone else, it just looks like a bunch of nerds circle-jerking, right? Right???

(I'm ranting again, aren't I?)

Yeah, and on top of that, when we are represented, at least in Japanese games, it's usually accompanied by annoying jokes about bodily insecurity that just feel predatory.

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I'm sure there's an anime term for it out there *checks* Yeah: Pettanko.

*cringe*

 

[Pablo Mesa]

Also there are different degrees to shirtless men. Speaking as someone who's bi Kratos is about as sexually unappealing as you can get, but this.



Mmm mmm yes please.

Though that's me speaking as a bi dude still.

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-Eve
Get some taste, Adam or go Home

 

[petran79]

This is something I've seen a lot of in writing groups/communities, too. Instead of asking, for example, "What inspired Fullmetal Alchemist?" they'll simply skim the surface and develop an idea about wizard brothers, one cursed to inhabit a suit of armour... It gets to a point where I feel uncomfortable talking about the usual writery things because everyone is so bloody wrapped up in copying their favourite game/anime/comic/book without the slightest interest in what drove the author to write what they did...

It gets especially bad when they're trying to write things like a shounen-style fight scene in prose...

See also: stories loaded with geek references and injokes. Christ, we get it already: you're insecure and in desperate need of validation. But you realise that, to everyone else, it just looks like a bunch of nerds circle-jerking, right? Right???

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In order to find what inspired Resident Evil, you have to play a fan translation of NES game Sweet Home and also watch the original movie with subs

 

[spam musubi]

Isn't it true though that the otaku are actually looked down on in Japan? It's apparently a common trope to represent an otaku guy as being, well, gross, perverted, obese, poorly socialised, repulsive to women, unattractive, etc.

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Yes, and as a result otaku-pandering media is generally viewed as material for immature manchildren or just straight up kids.

 

[Dary]

Somewhat related to this, I think it's funny when guys go "BUT DEVELOPERS DON'T KNOW WHAT WOMEN LIKE, IT'S JUST SO DIFFICULT, WOMEN ARE SO ~MYSTERIOUS~, MEN ARE SO MUCH MORE OBVIOUS IN WHAT THEY LIKE" when all you have to do is, like, ask. Or look at fandom content made by women.

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Taking inspiration from the women I know, I've recently used this for character design inspiration:

 

[Pablo Mesa]

otaku-pandering media is generally viewed as material for immature manchildren or just straight up kids.

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and yet Anime and related materials become more mainstream every year, hell we are in a new Anime bubble, all studios are contracted with works all teh way too late 2019

 

[Xaszatm]

This is something I've seen a lot of in writing groups/communities, too. Instead of asking, for example, "What inspired Fullmetal Alchemist?" they'll simply skim the surface and develop an idea about wizard brothers, one cursed to inhabit a suit of armour... It gets to a point where I feel uncomfortable talking about the usual writery things because everyone is so bloody wrapped up in copying their favourite game/anime/comic/book without the slightest interest in what drove the author to write what they did...

It gets especially bad when they're trying to write things like a shounen-style fight scene in prose...

See also: stories loaded with geek references and injokes. Christ, we get it already: you're insecure and in desperate need of validation. But you realise that, to everyone else, it just looks like a bunch of nerds circle-jerking, right? Right???

(I'm ranting again, aren't I?)



I'm sure there's an anime term for it out there *checks* Yeah: Pettanko.

*cringe*

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You guys didn't know about that term? I thought it was common at this point. You know, later on I'm going to make a list of all the anime cliches because it probably will be a good reference for later.

 

[AnansiThePersona]

Somewhat related to this, I think it's funny when guys go "BUT DEVELOPERS DON'T KNOW WHAT WOMEN LIKE, IT'S JUST SO DIFFICULT, WOMEN ARE SO ~MYSTERIOUS~, MEN ARE SO MUCH MORE OBVIOUS IN WHAT THEY LIKE" when all you have to do is, like, ask. Or look at fandom content made by women.

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I also think it's strange when the excuse is made that "They had women on the development team/help design the character so you should be okay with it" when, in reality we don't know the extent of their input when it came to how the camera may linger on the characters ass or boobs in a scene or how the characters may treat her like eye-candy/an object of desire most of the time.

 

[psychowave]

It's kind of disingenuous. Is it really a secret that men considered to be conventionally attractive look more like Chris Hemsworth, David Beckham, Hugh Jackman, Channing Tatum, etc. and not like freaking Zangief? Lol.

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Honestly I just don't get it. I find it hard to believe that guys are so clueless about what women like because, I mean, you just have to listen to us, or, like you said, check what the current popular male actors are, or see what women in fandom are watching and creating. Like, the only way you can really not know what women like is if you ignore us completely, and I mean, that's just impossible. You can't just ignore half of the population entirely.

Spoiler

... Right?

I also think it's strange when the excuse is made that "They had women on the development team/help design the character so you should be okay with it" when, in reality we don't know the extent of their input when it came to how the camera may linger on the characters ass or boobs in a scene or how the characters may treat her like eye-candy/an object of desire most of the time.

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And like, women are capable of creating misogynistic shit too. Especially if misogynistic shit is what sells on this industry and they have to put food on the table.

Taking inspiration from the women I know, I've recently used this for character design inspiration:

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NEVERMIND I'M DUMB I want every video game character to look like this pls

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Do men ask for pants bulge sliders?

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YES!

Been asking for one for a while.

 

[kliklik]

Yes, and as a result otaku-pandering media is generally viewed as material for immature manchildren or just straight up kids.

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I find that really interesting especially considering, as you said, that it's become so popular among Westerners. In the West, this stuff is seen as a representation of Japan and Japanese culture. 'That's just how Japan is!' is a typical defense. Yet in Japan, this genre and the people it caters to are looked down upon. People can get a very distorted view of a society by selective consumption of its cultural exports.

 

[kaytee]

Honestly I just don't get it. I find it hard to believe that guys are so clueless about what women like because, I mean, you just have to listen to us, or, like you said, check what the current popular male actors are, or see what women in fandom are watching and creating. Like, the only way you can really not know what women like is if you ignore us completely, and I mean, that's just impossible. You can't just ignore half of the population entirely.

Spoiler

... Right?

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I wish... This always blows my mind, because a lot of guys clearly have no idea.

 

[Redcrayon]

You guys didn't know about that term? I thought it was common at this point. You know, later on I'm going to make a list of all the anime cliches because it probably will be a good reference for later.

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These threads are always educational. :D

 

[kliklik]

Honestly I just don't get it. I find it hard to believe that guys are so clueless about what women like

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You're really so incredulous in the midst of multiple scandals where overweight unattractive old men – some of whom actually had stand-up routines commenting on how unprepossessing and undesirable they are – actually expected their young female colleagues or employees to enjoy the unexpected view of them pulling their dicks out and fapping?

For too many men, their confidence depends on willful ignorance about what women like.

 

[Pablo Mesa]

NEVERMIND I'M DUMB I want every video game character to look like this pls

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Jojo Counts? ?????

 

[AnansiThePersona]

And like, women are capable of creating misogynistic shit too. Especially if misogynistic shit is what sells on this industry and they have to put food on the table.

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Do you believe that more women in the Japanese game industry will result in more/a continued amount pandering to a male audience to make money, or would result in less otaku pandering and better female characters? I'd assume that more women in the Western game industry reduced over-sexualized women characters in games in the West, but I don't have the optics on that for sure.

 

[Dary]

I wish... This always blows my mind, because a lot of guys clearly have no idea.

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A lot of it is - unsurprisingly - thanks to men telling men what women find attractive, instead of men listening to women about what they find attractive. And those examples of what men say women find attractive are always hyper-masculinised.

Good luck finding men who would consider someone like Brian Molko attractive to women, for example...

 

[Pablo Mesa]

in less otaku pandering and better female characters?

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why is this always thrown around as a complain?? as if implying that any game with women in it will sell for the sake of it??
Games like that are a niche within a niche, bottom of the barrel, A woman can be sexy but also needs to be well written

this is what difference in popularity say Bayonetta games from Onee-chan Bara

 

[psychowave]

Jojo Counts? ?????

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Jojo kinda counts, but it started out with hyper-masculine protagonists and it didn't get fabulous until part 5. Well, I guess Josuke is kinda fabulous, but he's still huge.

Do you believe that more women in the Japanese game industry will result in more/a continued amount pandering to a male audience to make money, or would result in less otaku pandering and better female characters? I'd assume that more women in the Western game industry reduced over-sexualized women characters in games in the West, but I don't have the optics on that for sure.

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I think we'd need to see a lot more women in the Japanese game industry to see a significant reduction in otaku pandering, but I'm no expert, tbh.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Honestly I just don't get it. I find it hard to believe that guys are so clueless about what women like because, I mean, you just have to listen to us, or, like you said, check what the current popular male actors are, or see what women in fandom are watching and creating. Like, the only way you can really not know what women like is if you ignore us completely, and I mean, that's just impossible. You can't just ignore half of the population entirely.

Spoiler

... Right?

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In a socially isolated industry like this, you absolutely can. I believe Hasino said in an interview he and one other person (Soejima maybe?) know nothing about and have no experience with women.

He made a GOTY nominee.

 

[texhnolyze]

Can someone show me a recent AAA western game that threat Women like garbage ? Just asking.

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Interesting question, and I wonder why is it so hard to answer it.

I remember Patty from Risen 3 but that's nowhere near AAA. Even if I'm including everything outside AAA, it's still a hard question to answer.

Has it been concluded here that this is mainly Japanese/Eastern game developments problem?

I find that really interesting especially considering, as you said, that it's become so popular among Westerners. In the West, this stuff is seen as a representation of Japan and Japanese culture. 'That's just how Japan is!' is a typical defense. Yet in Japan, this genre and the people it caters to are looked down upon. People can get a very distorted view of a society by selective consumption of its cultural exports.

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Yeah, this is the worst defense that's been used a lot even around these parts.

 

[AnansiThePersona]

why is this always thrown around as a complain?? as if implying that any game with women in it will sell for the sake of it??
Games like that are a niche within a niche, bottom of the barrel, A woman can be sexy but also needs to be well written

this is what difference in popularity say Bayonetta games from Onee-chan Bara

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Otaku pandering, in my opinion, is stuff like Quiet from MGSV or Nowi from Fire Emblem: Awakening (haven't played the more recent ones but I'm sure there are more examples) where the game isn't about those characters or centers itself around their sexuality or anything, but those characters are there to be otaku pandering characters. If those characters were designed differently without being intended for a specific audience, maybe they wouldn't be seen as inappropriate characters for the games they're in.

 

[Pablo Mesa]

it didn't get fabulous until part 5

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Part 4 is Josuke, when Ariki changed for a more aesthetic design over the First of the North Star 80s style. part 5 is when it goes full Fashion with Golden Wind

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Jojo kinda counts, but it started out with hyper-masculine protagonists and it didn't get fabulous until part 5. Well, I guess Josuke is kinda fabulous, but he's still huge.
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Jojo is fabulous since AT LEAST the pillar men. Fashion and poses have been Araki's bread and butter since the beginning.

 

[psychowave]

Jojo is fabulous since AT LEAST the pillar men. Fashion and poses have been Araki's bread and butter since the beginning.

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I guess, but I doubt many women find the pillar men attractive.

 

[Pablo Mesa]

poses have been Araki's bread and butter since the beginning.

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I guess, but I doubt many women find the pillar men attractive.

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I feel like Jojo is a good example for when "how would you guys feel is a show/ game the male characters were going around showing skin, posing or had non macho designs"

 

[Deleted member 19066]

I guess, but I doubt many women find the pillar men attractive.

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Besides I'm pretty certain Araki's gay. He's never come out, but I just get the feeling.