Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)

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Viera

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Dec 13, 2017
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I mean if you’re going to word it that way than Mario Odyssey’s plot centers around forced marriage. SNK Heroines just is what it is, media for a “niche” audience that Japanese women rightly look down on.
 

Redcrayon

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Oct 27, 2017
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Typography on the box art seems like an odd choice to me, reminds me of the logos on the little girl’s toys my daughter likes. Outfits seem relatively tame on the cover too. Odd bit of misdirection for western release maybe?
 

HypedBeast

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Oct 29, 2017
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Typography on the box art seems like an odd choice to me, reminds me of the logos on the little girl’s toys my daughter likes. Outfits seem relatively tame on the cover too. Odd bit of misdirection for western release maybe?
Because Gal Fighters (basically the prequel to this game) was originally aimed more at female audiences, which makes this change in sexual tone a bit odd.
 

Platy

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Oct 25, 2017
12,731
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Can we talk about how awesome is that even with shitty amount of female characters, the record breaking Dragon Ball FighterZ treats their 2 women much better than any other fighter?

I mean if you’re going to word it that way than Mario Odyssey’s plot centers around forced marriage. SNK Heroines just is what it is, media for a “niche” audience that Japanese women rightly look down on.
The difference is that Mario Odyssey makes it clear that it is the villain doing this and you must stop it at all costs.
SNK Heroines makes you pratically be the kidnapper considering you will literally choose the clothing and watch/control them fight. It literally puts in the POV of the villain watching then on the creepy camera.
 

Xaszatm

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Oct 25, 2017
7,246
Typography on the box art seems like an odd choice to me, reminds me of the logos on the little girl’s toys my daughter likes. Outfits seem relatively tame on the cover too. Odd bit of misdirection for western release maybe?
Because it's a remnant of the girly style of its predecessor SNK Gals Fighters which was for girls, which was why there was an interested demographic of women in the game.



Such a shame another game for girls is getting sexualized for men.

EDIT: Beaten
 

Lotus

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Oct 25, 2017
44,117
But ive been called a pedo for liking P5 and choosing the Futaba route when really the difference is arbitrary when someone like a Makoto fan gets a free pass on the subject.
Yea whoever called you that definitely went too far. That aside, issues with people 18+ dating high schoolers is one thing. At the end of the day, you're role playing as a high schooler, so whatever. But I still stand by Futaba as a romantic choice still being uncomfortable/unnecessary due to her background, among other reasons.
 

Aigis

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Oct 25, 2017
6,383
Yea whoever called you that definitely went too far. That aside, issues with people 18+ dating high schoolers is one thing. At the end of the day, you're role playing as a high schooler, so whatever. But I still stand by Futaba as a romantic choice still being uncomfortable/unnecessary due to her background, among other reasons.
I mean I wont begrudge you for feeling that way even though I dont personally agree, Im just saying making a blanket statement on people without looking at the context and aesthetics is a disservice.
 

PtM

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I mean if you’re going to word it that way than Mario Odyssey’s plot centers around forced marriage. SNK Heroines just is what it is, media for a “niche” audience that Japanese women rightly look down on.
Does it really center around it, or isn't it just another flavour of background setting?
Typography on the box art seems like an odd choice to me, reminds me of the logos on the little girl’s toys my daughter likes. Outfits seem relatively tame on the cover too. Odd bit of misdirection for western release maybe?
They're trying to fool female buyers because they're not going to put out another one of these for the next decade. It's what makes most sense to me.
 

Xaszatm

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Oct 25, 2017
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Does it really center around it, or isn't it just another flavour of background setting?

They're trying to fool female buyers because they're not going to put out another one of these for the next decade. It's what makes most sense to me.
Which is an absolute shame because there probably would have been a bunch of women who would have bought the game if they were actually marketed too.
 

petran79

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Oct 27, 2017
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I remember years back when we could make fun of creeps who jerk off to prepubescent anime girls and now it's all "but it doesn't hurt anyoneeee", "don't kink shameeeeeee", "don't say mean things about the anime community even though most people in it are complicit by tolerating and defending the sexualization of minooooors", "but she's a 47598789375869 year old dragoooooonnnnn"
Usually anime and manga forums and database sites have a sub-section for erotic material and the appropriate discussions. That section is filtered and only members of 18+ can enter.
Though tbh I'd prefer ero material to be separate alltogether. Like it happens with sites about erotic visual novels. You can discuss about those in Resetera too, but not link to pictures.

As thing are now, this would be the equivalent of IMDB hosting porn movie entries of the latest productions, pro and amateur, together with the classics.

But anime was always targeted and filtered for this and that reason. Eg lot of parents had issues with Sailor Moon and the same sex relationships back then.

Do you mean Ayano? Because he pretty much attends every event dressed as Chun
That is him! Now I remember I had seen him before, just could not determine if he was the same person
 

Mewshuji

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Nov 11, 2017
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Can we talk about how awesome is that even with shitty amount of female characters, the record breaking Dragon Ball FighterZ treats their 2 women much better than any other fighter?
It can still do better itself. If the response to "don't objectify female characters" is "okay, no female characters", then uh. No, that's almost as bad I'd say. Only two playable women characters in a 24 character roster is a joke, and that DLC list doesn't inspire much more confidence.
 

Scrooge McDuck

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Oct 25, 2017
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Typography on the box art seems like an odd choice to me, reminds me of the logos on the little girl’s toys my daughter likes. Outfits seem relatively tame on the cover too. Odd bit of misdirection for western release maybe?
Typography and general childish vibe doesn't really mean anything, as this title from a series that usually gets CERO A rating can sadly attest:



At first I thought it was an attempt to expand the Medabot franchise to the girls demographic before I found out about the clothes-tearing feature.
 

Mewshuji

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Nov 11, 2017
3,161
FighterZ only has 2 female fighters? Don't older DB games have more than that?
They do. It's so weird. People defending the choice will say there weren't enough powerful female characters and point to the dev saying they wanted everyone to be of roughly the same power level. But I'm sorry but when you have playable YAMCHA able to potentially beat BEERUS, that argument flies out the window.

Shit, Arale is canonically one of the strongest fighters if not the strongest in Universe 7, and only didn't get taken to the ToP because they were worried her "gag manga" powers would backfire.
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
16,189
Typography and general childish vibe doesn't really mean anything, as this title from a series that usually gets CERO A rating can sadly attest:



At first I thought it was an attempt to expand the Medabot franchise to the girls demographic before I found out about the clothes-tearing feature.
what is this mockery
 

RPGamer

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Oct 25, 2017
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I mean you can be upset but did you really not catch from the first trailer that this was a fan service fighter?

Even Mai in the bikini was in the first batch of promotional materials.
Looked at some Gal Gighter Footage and i think some of the characters would have been more sexualized if the hardware allowed it at that time.






I like the old cover artstyle better. But the highly stylized graphics were due to the hardware limits too i guess. It showed some skin anyway.
 

Mesoian

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,623
will we ever be able to discuss and criticize the blatant pedophilic fanservice present in anime and video games without getting banned for hurting the feelings of anime fans *thinking emoji*
Not until the day that those same people are willing to admit that the reason why they're watching that stuff at all is because of the pedophilic fanservice. The "but no, the plot though, these characters are, the setting is" handwaving and mincing about is done to try and take away from the fact that, at the end of the day, they want to see the 15 year old titties.

Like, the "Is Senran Kagura Estival Festival" thread is telling because everyone's really quick to say that they enjoyed the game and platinum-ed it, leaving out the fact that in order to do that, you have to put all of the girls in seductive poses and then slap their privates until they agree to kiss you.

::SHRUG::

FighterZ only has 2 female fighters? Don't older DB games have more than that?
It's a bit of a sore area because there aren't a lot of meaningful women in DBZ to begin with, and the newer female fighters who are pretty dope are so new that they probably won't make this iteration of the game at all. From what I've seen though, nearly everyone really wants Kale and Kalifula to join the roster.

Personally I'm like "But Zanyga doh".



But no one remembers Zangya, and Bojack sucks.
 

PtM

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DBZ has always been a sausage fest for the longest time. Only with GT there was Goku's granddaughter, I think?
 

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
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DBZ has always been a sausage fest for the longest time. Only with GT there was Goku's granddaughter, I think?
All the women in DBZ get sidelined. Chi-chi gets housewifed, Bulma gets housewifed, videl gets housewifed, Pan is no longer cannon. There are some dope women in Super, but they're very new and...you know...


It's still japan.
 

RPGamer

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Oct 25, 2017
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Not until the day that those same people are willing to admit that the reason why they're watching that stuff at all is because of the pedophilic fanservice. The "but no, the plot though, these characters are, the setting is" handwaving and mincing about is done to try and take away from the fact that, at the end of the day, they want to see the 15 year old titties.

Like, the "Is Senran Kagura Estival Festival" thread is telling because everyone's really quick to say that they enjoyed the game and platinum-ed it, leaving out the fact that in order to do that, you have to put all of the girls in seductive poses and then slap their privates until they agree to kiss you.

::SHRUG::
"15 years old titties" aren't "pedophilic" fanservice though. People should perhaps use the term how it is meant to be. Pedophiles get horny of prepubescent children, not big boobs. Not defending sexualization of 15 years olds (if they are in the game), but the term is used wrong.
 

Lotus

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Oct 25, 2017
44,117
They do. It's so weird. People defending the choice will say there weren't enough powerful female characters and point to the dev saying they wanted everyone to be of roughly the same power level. But I'm sorry but when you have playable YAMCHA able to potentially beat BEERUS, that argument flies out the window.
You don't need the dev comment to understand why characters like Videl, Bulma, Hercules, etc. were going to get shafted in a game that's aiming to stay true to the source material as much as possible, which includes adhering to specific mechanics. If they were clearly making up a lot of shit for their characters, then yea, that defense wouldn't fly at all. It has nothing to do with power levels specifically.

And the female characters they can absolutely can use got introduced recently, so I can't even be confident any of them will get in as DLC. So it's like... Fuck.

I blame the source material for taking so damn long to introduce such characters. Though the original female character they do have is pretty blatant in terms of fanservice, so ya can't even fully win there with the scraps they gave us lol
 

Platy

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Oct 25, 2017
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Looked at some Gal Gighter Footage and i think some of the characters would have been more sexualized if the hardware allowed it at that time.






I like the old cover artstyle better. But the highly stylized graphics were due to the hardware limits too i guess. It showed some skin anyway.
That is because of the designs, still, SD style is a good way to greatly decrease objectification

Like imagine Mai with these proportions



I mean

 

Deleted member 5535

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All the women in DBZ get sidelined. Chi-chi gets housewifed, Bulma gets housewifed, videl gets housewifed, Pan is no longer cannon. There are some dope women in Super, but they're very new and...you know...


It's still japan.
Bulma was always important even after that, she's the most important female character in the series even if she's not a fighter.

Also, Pan is canon. Her first appearance was in the final chapters of dragon ball, not in GT. At the same time, she appear in Super as a baby.
 

Mewshuji

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Nov 11, 2017
3,161
You don't need the dev comment to understand why characters like Videl, Bulma, Hercules, etc. were going to get shafted in a game that's aiming to stay true to the source material as much as possible, which includes adhering to specific mechanics. If they were clearly making up a lot of shit for their characters, then yea, that defense wouldn't fly at all. It has nothing to do with power levels specifically.

And the female characters they can absolutely can use got introduced recently, so I can't even be confident any of them will get in as DLC. So it's like... Fuck.

I blame the source material for taking so damn long to introduce such characters. Though the original female character they do have is pretty blatant in terms of fanservice, so ya can't even fully win there with the scraps they gave us lol
Yeah I guess a lot of the blame can be put right at Toriyama's own feet.
 

Choppasmith

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Oct 25, 2017
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I'm looking forward too and dreading SNK heroines all at the same time. ZX
Yeah, same here. I've got the special edition for Switch preordered. I can't help it, I'm a sucker for collectibles. But I love art books and maybe there's some insight into the design of the game.

But I have to wonder if there's a chance of a bait and switch. The only time we've really seen characters fight in their default outfits is the Nintendo Direct. With producer Of a saying they wanted to show the options for different regions. Everything else has shown the skimpy outfits. That comment from Oda has me hoping maybe there's a way to keep it all decent. It wouldn't make the game suddenly "Okay" with all the other stuff going on, but it would make it more palatable for me.

Looked at some Gal Gighter Footage and i think some of the characters would have been more sexualized if the hardware allowed it at that time.






I like the old cover artstyle better. But the highly stylized graphics were due to the hardware limits too i guess. It showed some skin anyway.
Yeah Platy beat me to it. I think if they weren't so limited in budget and staff forcing them to reuse assets, I'm sure we would've gotten something more cutesy looking.


Personally I'm like "But Zanyga doh".



But no one remembers Zangya, and Bojack sucks.
I remember first seeing her in that SNES end game and had no idea who she was other than thinking she looks cool. Still haven't seen the movie she's from. I see lots of people talk about how cool she is.
 

RPGamer

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Oct 25, 2017
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That is because of the designs, still, SD style is a good way to greatly decrease objectification

Like imagine Mai with these proportions



I mean

Thats true, but Chibi looks or more stylized was often used for weaker platforms, while the artistic vision was different. I liked the look of old tales of games better, i even liked FF better, but the devs stylized because of the hardware. Most games now get a more "realistic", grown and more detailed look and so the worse (depending on your View) things get more visible too.
 

HypedBeast

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Oct 29, 2017
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I remember first seeing her in that SNES end game and had no idea who she was other than thinking she looks cool. Still haven't seen the movie she's from. I see lots of people talk about how cool she is.
Eh, Ive never seen the appeal in Zangya. I feel that since there are so few female fighters in Dragonball people just take what they can get, but she dosent have any interesting moves or even really has a personality (though that can be said of all Bojacks crew).

The one thing I remember about her is that Bojack literally used her as a meat shield

 

DragonKeeper

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Nov 14, 2017
645
"15 years old titties" aren't "pedophilic" fanservice though. People should perhaps use the term how it is meant to be. Pedophiles get horny of prepubescent children, not big boobs. Not defending sexualization of 15 years olds (if they are in the game), but the term is used wrong.
Aye, the term that should be used here is hebephile.
 

Timu

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Oct 25, 2017
3,682
Wow, I was not expecting Nakoruru to wear something like that!
As a person who isn't familiar with either SNK nor its heroines... I don't really get the SNK Heroines trailer. So it only has 6 fighters? Why does it look like a browser game in terms of gameplay, but with more dress-up options? People pay money for this sort of stuff? ?_?
It will have way more than 6 fighters!
 

Mesoian

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Oct 28, 2017
7,623
Bulma was always important even after that, she's the most important female character in the series even if she's not a fighter.

Also, Pan is canon. Her first appearance was in the final chapters of dragon ball, not in GT. At the same time, she appear in Super as a baby.
Well Bulma is basically turned into a Q figure. She stopped going on adventures and stayed home, helping through a radio. It's as sidelined as one of the only smart people in DBZ can get.

And you're right, Pan is still around, I actually forgot. It's been some time since I watched the beerus movie.
 

Deleted member 5535

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Well Bulma is basically turned into a Q figure. She stopped going on adventures and stayed home, helping through a radio. It's as sidelined as one of the only smart people in DBZ can get.

And you're right, Pan is still around, I actually forgot. It's been some time since I watched the beerus movie.
Well, she stopped because that only happened in the first three arcs of dragon ball and she grow up in that time. After that she would be in every saga with the other characters and also in the Dbz with her going to Namek, helping with Cell and Buu and with a more prominent role in Super as a scientist. Bulma only don't have more space because she can't participate in fighting because she's one of the characters who most appear and have time.
 

DragonKeeper

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Nov 14, 2017
645
Isn't hebephilia generally for ages 11-14?
Well, if you want to get specific, hebephile means attracted to younger adolescents (preteens and young teens) while ephebophile refers to being attracted to older adolescents (older teens). It's all still adolescents though. Whether you say pedo, hebe, or ephebo, it's all still children and that's the problem.

On the subject of how to discuss games with problematic, if not straight up vile, content and the people who like those games. I think on a message board that caters to many communities, you just have to exercise diplomacy and focus the ire on the games themselves while taking care with how you express your disapproval for the audience if you do at all. I worked at Gamestop and had to bite my tongue a lot, especially selling stuff like GTA to parents who were buying for their little Timmys. Better to move the conversation to a private Discord channel to blow off the truly heated steam. The frustration is real though. I've curled my lip at more than a few posts here and there.

How about "creepy"? Is that not a sufficient term?
Sure?
 
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Amiibola

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,255
I remember first seeing her in that SNES end game and had no idea who she was other than thinking she looks cool. Still haven't seen the movie she's from. I see lots of people talk about how cool she is.
Yeah, but she's given the most miserable death a DBZ villain ever had

Fear --> Used as a meat shield --> Vaporized

Also, regarding Bulma, she's always been one of the most relevant characters of the series, even after staying at the Caps. Corp.

Even characters that were once powerful rivals or allies like Yamcha or Ten got shunned, but she stayed and had big roles.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
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Oct 24, 2017
10,481
Please avoid generalizing about entire Anime fandoms. You can criticize or comment on Anime trends without stooping to that.

On the other hand, splitting hairs over terminology in order to downplay or defend the sexualization of minors is not something we allow here at ResetEra. Please drop this "it's not technically pedophilia" nitpicking immediately. Thanks.
 

Chairmanchuck

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Oct 25, 2017
4,097
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On the other hand, splitting hairs over terminology in order to downplay or defend the sexualization of minors is not something we allow here at ResetEra. Please drop this "it's not technically pedophilia" nitpicking immediately. Thanks.
I think that right now there isnt a straight "rule" on ERA about that. I mean there is a Senran Kagura thread where people are talking about that game, but I see warnings for people talking about Criminal Girls, both games with naked loli-characters, just one is more "risky" than the other and features more "loli"-characters than the other.
Same with Gal Gun. A game in which you give high-school girls literally orgasms by shooting them with some loli-"high-school" characters thrown in.

That is why I was also asking on the last page what the stance is on fictional "borderline" characters. Especially with the anime or even comic artstyle a 16 year old could easily look like a 25 year old or vice versa and thats why I used the Nodame Cantabile comparison. The character might be a high-school girl or a college girl, depending in which setting you put it. If there is no indication at all, she could be both.

To make it clear I am not defending the sexualization of minor characters, but I personally wonder why Senran Kagura isnt getting much flak and I wonder what about borderline characters in an artistic medium.
 

Morrigan

Armoring
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Oct 24, 2017
10,481
That's a good question. I was under the impression that the characters in Senran Kagura weren't explicitly underage, but if that's inaccurate, we might need to revisit our policy.

In any case, this is not a subject for this thread, so please take the rest of this kind of inquiry to PM or contact the admins about it. Thanks.
 
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Dec 24, 2017
131
Michigan
I think that right now there isnt a straight "rule" on ERA about that. I mean there is a Senran Kagura thread where people are talking about that game, but I see warnings for people talking about Criminal Girls, both games with naked loli-characters, just one is more "risky" than the other and features more "loli"-characters than the other.
Same with Gal Gun. A game in which you give high-school girls literally orgasms by shooting them with some loli-"high-school" characters thrown in.

That is why I was also asking on the last page what the stance is on fictional "borderline" characters. Especially with the anime or even comic artstyle a 16 year old could easily look like a 25 year old or vice versa and thats why I used the Nodame Cantabile comparison. The character might be a high-school girl or a college girl, depending in which setting you put it. If there is no indication at all, she could be both.

To make it clear I am not defending the sexualization of minor characters, but I personally wonder why Senran Kagura isnt getting much flak and I wonder what about borderline characters in an artistic medium.
Not attempting to sound judgmental here, but the questions you're posing feel like a veiled attempt to be given some manner of sanctuary from criticism in regards to things you enjoy that could be construed as morally questionable in nature.
 

Chairmanchuck

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Oct 25, 2017
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Not attempting to sound judgmental here, but the questions you're posing feel like a veiled attempt to be given some manner of sanctuary from criticism in regards to things you enjoy that could be construed as morally questionable in nature.
I just think its a hard topic to talk about and judge, because not all games with underage characters are "fanservice" games. There are Visual Novels with underage characters that realistically show puberty, sex, growing up but might have sexual content or implied ones. Then you have the Sword Art Online games that have fanservice scenes with underage characters, though the focus isnt on those.

That's a good question. I was under the impression that the characters in Senran Kagura weren't explicitly underage, but if that's inaccurate, we might need to revisit our policy.

In any case, this is not a subject for this thread, so please take the rest of this kind of inquiry to PM or contact the admins about it. Thanks.
Alright. Will do.
 
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