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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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True but nothing can take away 18 vs Vegeta. She fucked him up so bad he still can't seem to even look in her general direction.
She'd be great in this game, and I pretty much have her myself lol
Honestly, the post above isn't criticizing. It's down right insulting to a whole fanbase and it should result in at least a warn.
From the SK thread, people do like the series for many reasons beyond fan-service as seen in that thread.
I'm wondering here what kind of community we are trying to foster here.
They aren't explicity underage, though in terms of art-style they are drawn as young adults.
Though SK is a fan service series, it stops there. It's not a porn game for that matter.
If we start banning discussions for games that feature fan-service, we might bury a lot of great games for no good reason.
Just wanted to say that I'm not a huge fan of Android 21's characterization or the fact that she just happens to be busty (when Towa already filled that quotient and "evil is sexy" is such a bloody pernicious overused trope).
Her fighting style, on the other hand, is legitimately great, and I'm glad she exists just for that. Not so glad about how incredibly strong she is in PvP... heh.
Her "good" side is incredibly bland and vanilla to the point of being flavorless. She simply lacks any hook to draw me in. Her "evil" side, while pretty textbook, at least acted unhinged to the point of legitimately being creepy at times. Her better half has no such hook. She's just kind of... there.
Her fighting style, on the other hand, is legitimately great, and I'm glad she exists just for that. Not so glad about how incredibly strong she is in PvP... heh.
If we ban Senran Kagura for questionable content based on age of characters or presumed age of characters regardless of how prevalent, we will similarly have to ban:
Xenoblade 2
Persona series
Tales series
Legend of Heroes series
Ys series
Atelier series
99% of what's talked about in the visual novel OT
Fire Emblem series
Etrian Odyssey series
everything by Idea Factory
Danganronpa Ultra Despair Girls
Disgaea series
And probably a bunch more games that I can't think of right now.
Xenoblade 2
Persona series
Tales series
Legend of Heroes series
Ys series
Atelier series
99% of what's talked about in the visual novel OT
Fire Emblem series
Etrian Odyssey series
everything by Idea Factory
Danganronpa Ultra Despair Girls
Disgaea series
And probably a bunch more games that I can't think of right now.
You folks are missing the point.
Just don't deflect. Don't defend pandering of characters that are depicted as or resemble minors. Don't split hairs over terminology related to the sexualization of minors. It's that simple. Whether or not the series has those characters is irrelevant. Just don't... y'know... don't be a creep when discussing the games and you'll have no issues. Is that really too much to ask?
Just don't deflect. Don't defend pandering of characters that are depicted as or resemble minors. Don't split hairs over terminology related to the sexualization of minors. It's that simple. Whether or not the series has those characters is irrelevant. Just don't... y'know... don't be a creep when discussing the games and you'll have no issues. Is that really too much to ask?
Thus why I wrote explicity. This is a very blurry line in what each individual will think it's acceptable or not, but more importantly than that, there is discussion regarding the game that doesn't have fan service as a subject. Go into any SK OT and you will see people talking about story, characters, gameplay, etc.
Talking about an arbitrary number attached to a fictional character will get us nowhere. Especially since those discussions always end in 1000 year loli dragons and kids with full beards and 20 years of military experience.
I mean those games probably shouldn't fetishize underaged girls either, but they at least have artistic merit outside of it.
Surely it's possible to enjoy Fire Emblem's story and also have a problem with the ten year old girl in lingerie who's actually a 1000 year old dragon.
And porn games are fine as long as they're not about fetishizing underaged girls. It's why I don't get too angry about DOAX; it's just smut, but at least it's legal.
Yeah, cosmicblizzard is a bit too quick with the ban talk.
It sure would be weird to have a sexualised, mature looking character with an assigned underage,
This reminds me, the android in Fighterz at one point says she's technically eleven.
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I agree, but revisiting the policy suggests to me a wholesale ban on anything that features that type of content regardless of value outside of said content or prevalence within the game itself.
I mean there's more than a few eroge that have that too present in VN discussions here.
Oh, that definitely happens in Japanese media. They give girls with voluptuous bodies lower numbers merely to keep them in their beloved high-school.
Fetishizing of underaged girls and the exploitative views of women in the games industry are two separate things.
When I say that DOAX doesn't bug me, I mean that at least it's not about giant boobed 12 year olds like Senran Kagura. I'm not going to get up in someone's face for disliking a game that's still just T&A.
Can't remember the name of the character, but pretty sure there's a fighting game that has a 3 year old girl that looks like an adult and gets super sexualized.
Sexual content, fan service, lewdness, dating sim elements...
That's rad.
It's someone's cup of tea.
If I don't like it, I don't spent a dime on it.
I practice that behavior actively.
But... catering to the underage fetish, contributing to the normalization of a predatory culture that hurts children in the real world? Nope. That's a line in the sand.
People want legal reflective sexy content? Cool, have at it, enjoy.
I just got a problem with the harmful shit and the willingness I see too often to defend it or to sweep it under the rug.
That's rad.
It's someone's cup of tea.
If I don't like it, I don't spent a dime on it.
I practice that behavior actively.
But... catering to the underage fetish, contributing to the normalization of a predatory culture that hurts children in the real world? Nope. That's a line in the sand.
People want legal reflective sexy content? Cool, have at it, enjoy.
I just got a problem with the harmful shit and the willingness I see too often to defend it or to sweep it under the rug.
I find it ridiculous you call Bulma a housewife especially since super has been out. That character has all sorts of agency and is shown to be very intelligent.
Point out the lie. You forgot what you need to do to get that "all poses with all characters" trophy in Estival didn't you?
The average age of the girls across the entire Senran Kagura line is 15 (Edit: 16, one of the girls is 22 and drives the average up).
::SHRUG::
The fact remains, there are more people mincing around the idea that the game they like is SOLELY about objectifying children and will not admit that is the reason they like those games. Period. That's not a generalization, it's not an insult, it's not a mischaracterization, it's a fact.
In a show about people solving all their problems via punching each other a lot, Bulma has the least amount of agency. I'm not saying she's completely useless, she is by far the woman with the most influence in the entire dragonball line. But it doesn't change the fact that, when the rubber hits the road, Bulma isn't there, she's watching things unfold on TV with Puar and Oolong and Master Roshi. That's how dragonball do. Like, in the stuff I've seen from super (I am not caught up) Bulma saved the universe by having a buffet. And it's like...fine cool...I remember when you had a gun and were on adventures.
And Nu from Blaz Blue, and mu, and lambda and Es and MAYBE Tao? I don't remember with Tao.
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I mean, Queen's Blade has a plot beyond it's clear ecchi tropes....that doesn't stop it from being boderline hentai. Neither does it stop hentai with an actual plot from being actual hentai.
And...yeah...no matter what people say, it's still all about sexualizing minors.
I mean, real talk, the two things positive people say the most about the Senran Kagura series is "It's easy to play so you can just mash it out and not think too hard about what you're doing" and "Life and Hometown".
It is what it is. It's not apologizing for what it is, I don't know why peopl are trying to justify or rationalize what it is. It's soft core porn first and foremost.
Now that you're pointing facts, please, show me a research why people are playing the games.
Meanwhile, you hear news like this:
http://nintendoeverything.com/marve...players-talks-about-the-series-sexual-nature/
No one is denying the sexual nature of the games, however, that doesn't mean people are solely playing the series for that factor.
You're free to bring me something, anything, that proves that news wrong.
I have no idea what exactly is your point with this, care to elaborate ?
I mean you also have people in there straight up saying they like the fanservice so I don't know where this denying talk is coming from either.
Unless you just think everyone needs to say that for some reason.
Unless you just think everyone needs to say that for some reason.
SK is a game that features ecchi tropes for 15 year old girls. It's the point of the game. The director has been pretty clear about the point of the game. He has never been secretive or trying to say he had a point. He is pretty fricking honest about this. It doesn't matter if people say SK has some positive things in it, it doesn't change the fact that the entire point of the game, which it shamelessly advertises, is the sexualization of 15 year old girls.
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I mean, I give you the anecdotal evidence of everyone in the thread specifically talking about this very subject right now. And it doesn't matter if you have women who don't have a problem with it, that's not the point. Just like sexual doushinji authored and inked by women, women are just as capable of making objectifying situations as men are. What you are doing and what so many others are doing is trying to play off the sexual nature of these games by saying, "yeah there's fanservice but the DEEP LASTING RELATIONSHIPS, THE CHARACTERS, THE PLOT". If that's so important, why do those things keep taking a backseat to the fanservice? Why was the last senran kagura game a cooking game about spilling cream all over each girl? You say no one is denying that, but then you link me to a news article that points to a Marvelous exec saying, "no but girls like it to, so there's no problem, don't worry about it."
Like, real talk man, what your doing right now is why "PLOT" is a meme. It's some, "I only read it for the articles" mess. It's weak, and again, it doesn't change the fact that people just straight up want to ignore the fact that the game they like is sexualizing and objectifying 15 year olds. Like, the handwaving here is causing hurricanes in the south pacific. Like...should I post the trailer to the shooter where the girls are basically shooting each other with water guns full of slime so you can take pictures of them as if someone just released on them?
Honestly...."The deep story". Yeah the deep story that takes a back seat to a girl groping another girl from behind, causing her to forget what they needed to do to advance the plot.
Like come on man. It's porn. Hard stop. That one Pirates porn with the 2 million dollar budget actually has a somewhat decent plot and a few good action scenes in it....BUT IT'S STILL PORN.
No. Because this is clearly something we need to discuss when the first reaction anytime anyone brings up the nature of these types of games is, "yeah but...naw don't worry about it."
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Like, from the very article in question:
::SHRUG:: So what are we doing here?
I can't speak for most people, and I haven't actually played much Senran Kagura. But I like when my fanservice seires has a good plot or likable characters. It's genuinely possible to enjoy these series for things besides just the fanservice.
When have I tried to get you?
I would like some sources for the bolded.
Because, as my previous link said, people aren't playing the games just for that.
My point is that some people play the games for more than just fanservice. Some will play it for the fanservice, no issues with that.
My issues are with people who barely know the series keep throwing insults and falsities with no reason nor rhyme.
Like this.
Even worse, people like this are, more often than not, advocating to ban all discussion on these games regardless that they are more than their first impressions.
Even when you do show they might be wrong:
Shit like this gets thrown around. Ignore the whole rest of the game, there's fanservice to burn here.
I'm not here to change anyone's view on the matter of what SK is and what it is not, however, these kinds of people need a shorter leash on how they talk about things (especially not calling pedophiles for an entire fanbase).
You don't like the game and you certainly are not willing to have any good conversations regarding the game because of the fan service, that's fine. Why not just ignore it's existence ? Trying to advocate some kind of ban for this kind of game effectively just hurts those who actually like those games while you don't care at all.
Denying as in many fans seem to be more offended at the people pointing out pedophiloc issues in these games than the pedophilia itself to the point of whining of persecution every time it's brought up.
Personally, I think that a bit of fanservice doesn't hurt if it's not too invasive/gratuitous.
A game like Senran Kagura or Dragon's Crown definitely stays in the first category, where the fanservice is so strong that it becomes an annoyance to people that don't like it.
However, games such as most Final Fantasy, still give some fanservice but in a tame way. The female characters are definitely beautiful and tend to be revealing, but as this is not taken to the next level, it doesn't bother me.
The theme of the game is also important in my opinion. If you put fanservice in an horror game/survival game, it feels terribly weird and out of place.
I'll use Metal Gear as an example: the fan service is completely ridiculous and useless there.
In a game like Fate Grand Order though, the fanservice is understandable, as the game doesn't take itself seriously and it's all about collecting beautiful male and female anime characters.
A game like Senran Kagura or Dragon's Crown definitely stays in the first category, where the fanservice is so strong that it becomes an annoyance to people that don't like it.
However, games such as most Final Fantasy, still give some fanservice but in a tame way. The female characters are definitely beautiful and tend to be revealing, but as this is not taken to the next level, it doesn't bother me.
The theme of the game is also important in my opinion. If you put fanservice in an horror game/survival game, it feels terribly weird and out of place.
I'll use Metal Gear as an example: the fan service is completely ridiculous and useless there.
In a game like Fate Grand Order though, the fanservice is understandable, as the game doesn't take itself seriously and it's all about collecting beautiful male and female anime characters.
This dosent have to do entirely with Senran Kagura (havent played it yet), but putting things like plot, endearing characters, and good stories into a game with fanservice just means the creators give a shit. It was mentioned in the Senran Kagura thread that poster that didnt like the game wanted to know why fanservice all had to be garbage (shit games like Gal Gun), and the only good one were debatably not even fanserivce games (Bayonetta).
If games like Skullgirls, Shantae, or even Bayonetta (all of which I consider fanservice games) didn't have compelling elements to them like a very unique art style, cool character designs ,charisma , and good gameplay , they wouldnt have their following. I certainly wouldnt find the Skullgirls as appealing if they put no effort into not only the aesthetic and gameplay, the fanservice is just the icing on the cake.
This just makes me tired.
But the bolded makes me sad. "Why can't you just, you know, ignore the problem entirely, so I can keep playing the video game?"
Which is the UNDERSCORE of the gaming community enmasse when it comes to discussing social issues of any kind.
I'm done.
Now I haven't played Dragon's Crown yet, but for some reason that game looks less abrasive to me than Senran Kagura or other similar games. Maybe because they don't look like school kids, I dunno.
Anyways, how did the female armor end up in Monster Hunter World?
When you open your "discussion" like this:
It already tells me everything I need to know about what kind of discussion you want.
At least we agree on something. We're done.
See here's the thing, that stuff in Senran Kagura isn't good. It's standard faire for a 2am ecchi anime that ultimately no one cares about. Qwaser's plot and characters went crazy, demons trying to over throw government in order to drown society in sin and lust, children who could stop it being murdered in the street and people needed to fight against it...but at the end of the day, it was still just about watching guys sucking women's breasts to power up. I've played thorugh all of Estival, there is nothing plotwise, character wise, that is even close to decent. It's all about the characters, how they're designed and what you can do to them. The game play doesn't follow any of the norms of other games in it's ilk, it's serviceable at best across the board.
That being said, I LOVE skullgirls. I think it's great. I think it's an excellent game to learn how to play fighting games, I think it breaks things down really simple, I love the fact that it allows you to be creative in how you build combos, I love the freedom making custom assists gives you...Skullgirls is trying to be the best game it can possibly be. Whether or not you like the artstyle is up to you, some people think it's too risque, that's fine, they're entitled to their opinion. Skullgirls uses fanservice as a seasoning in the meal of video games, it sprinkles it around, it doesn't bury it and it's a better game for it. Bayonetta is the same. The upcoming Bloodstained looks like it's going to be the same. Hell, I'm willing to give props to stuff like Lollipop Chainsaw that uses the sexualized nature of it's protagonists as a commentary on the world.
Senran Kagura doesn't do any of that. It's not trying to be anything but smut. Someone arguing against me in a different through said it pretty well when I chastised the games actually getting worse over time, "Naw man, you're wrong, the TnA of these games is getting better with every game. That cooking game was pretty bad, but the fanservice was top shelf." These games have one purpose and one purpose only, titillation. And when you take that at face value, and then look at how and with what it uses to titillate, you see a far larger problem that runs a streak through pretty much all fanservice games, "yo, these girls are WAY underage"'.
And I really wish the argument that people ultimately come at me with at the end of everything would be something more than, "naw, shut up though."
I'll get around to making my judgements on the game soon, but its seems like a lot people liked the characters, so I dunno maybe i'll be a fan (though I doubt it, I hate anime tropes).
But yeah I agree completely with everything you said. I guess my issue is that I see eye to eye with folks on a lot of things. Like I agree sexualizing a game that previously wasnt focused on that (for example, Fire Emblem or the upcoming SNK Heroines) is in poor taste and unnecessary.
My issue is when games that from day one tell you what they are about, and hell even make fanservice part of their aesthetic also get incessant complaints (Dragons Crown, Skullgirls, Bayonetta) , this is where they lose me, since these games arent in large quantity and arent trying to full anyone into buying what they thought would be a mainstream game. And then these people only want to leave fans of those kinds of games with crap like Gal Gun or Valkyrie Drive, games nobody (even fans of fanservice games) gives a single fuck about.
I take a lot more issue with characters like Quiet and Cidny, rather than Bayonetta, because the former seem very ill-fitting in the settings and releases that they are in.
It's obviously possible. Naturally, when you are already there for the fanservice, and like its fanservice, some good characters and narrative would be added benefits. I don't think anybody asserts that it's impossible to enjoy other things than fanservice.
Thing is, those are not relevant to people criticizing the game. If I specifically criticize a game for sexualization of high school girls, all the defense of its plot and characters just feel like deflections. It's not a simple math addition where positive qualities of some works can cancel out what I perceive to be negative. It doesn't change the conversation one bit, unless I am accusing the game of having no redeeming values whatsoever, which I don't.
Which is why SephLuis defense on the fanbase rings somewhat hollow to me. Okay, of course, obviously, its fans can like the game for reasons beyond fanservice, but that's including the fanservice, yar? Sure, the story is nice and the characters are charming - I'll go as far as saying that it can be touching at times - but it's not really remarkable (at least on the first game. Hopefully I don't have to Platinum Estival Versus or something for this opinion to count). Surely people are not really starved for such caliber of a story in games that they have to buy this all-encompassing bouncy-boobs, teary-clothes, lewdy-poses game series just to experience it? Surely somebody who is willing to call themselves a fan of a such a game - at the very least - don't really mind it?
At that point, it really doesn't matter whether the fans found some worth beyond the fanservice. It really doesn't matter if your fanservice game has good plot or not. When somebody keeps playing and likes a series that has sexualization of minors as its core part - proudly and omnipresently reflected in promotional materials and gameplay - it's pretty weird to feel attacked when people consider them to like sexualization of minors. Or, weirder still, to construe what people are saying as accusing them to liking only its sexualization of minors and take umbrage at that.
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However, when people do that you waive your hand like it's nothing. You're not wrong for not liking the series, but pushing the narrative that there's only titilation is a fucking lie. Quoting from reviews of each game:
EDIT: From metacritic.
SK Peach Beach Splash
SK Estival Versus
SK2 Deep Crimson
It's no wonder that, at some point, people will do tell you to shut up because all attemps at conversation have failed.
Or despite the fan service. Check the last SK thread and you will see plenty of people playing those despite the fanservice. Not everyone who is a fan of the series likes that.
I'm really not following what you mean with this, but if I am interested in the series story, then yes, you will have to buy the whole package with things you like and dislike. Not different from anything else.
I mentioned before that some people will take a harder stance on this than others and I certainly don't blame them. But when the same group spreads lies about the titles only being titilation, that's where I start having issues with it.
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I've only played the first game, on 3DS, after seeing it on the eShop and seeing "oh, ninja girls beating up monsters and stuff, sounds cool". If the series really has gone downhill since the first 3DS title- that is, the game's become more fanservice focused and flanderized the characters- then it seems like I made a good call on bailing out when I did. Like, I already really disliked the "our clothes tear and fall off when we get hit" thing, it's in stark opposition to the really great characterizations and backstory I was presented with. I guess they noticed that, but instead of backing down on the fanservice, they cranked it up, and backed down on the characterization and story instead. Shameful. Because I really do love the characters a lot. I just hope they get successors of sorts in other series somewhere, then. Daidoji in particular is super awesome. There need to be more bancho aneki-types.
Uhhhhh...
I think you missed out on what he was laying down here, within some of the very quotes you provided...
This in particular is what I think what was being driven at. Yes, the games might have draw other than the fanservice... but the devs and producer still at large treat the game first and foremost as ecchi games, to the very detriment of the story and even the gameplay.
I won't say that people are only into the series for the ecchi-ness, as I know several people besides myself who really love some of the characters. But the games are still that first and foremost, which is pretty sketchy when you consider around half the cast is underage.
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I was just passing by and I must point out that as not being english, maybe I don't understand it like people with english native language but a word is a word, and I always find this kind of phrase jarring and it's even more in a topic like this.
Textbook slippery slope fallacy. None of those games are on the level of Criminal Girls. SK is a lot closer:
Basically, the game is defined by its fanservice rather than just being a side part of it, and it has sexual assault on underage girls as a feature. Not remotely comparable to Ys or Legend of Heroes, come on.
In any case, SK isn't banned from discussion as a franchise per se, but that doesn't mean defending its heavy sexualization of minors is acceptable. Keep that in mind.
And I never denied that it falls in a very blurry line regarding sexual content. My first post in this thread was about that.
There's no issue raising concerns or criticizing that. I myself don't like a lot of things the games does in regards of fan service (Minori especially)
What I am arguing is that those games aren't solely defined by that, which is what some people were saying.
Even worse, from that point of view, people were even arguing if the discussion of said games should be banned.
The reviews I brought were to illustrate different opinions about the series and I even choose those that critique the sexual side of the games.
Many people do take issues with it, but as the quotes illustrated, they don't define the whole experience for them.
Canonically?
I mean, he's right. Canonically, in the lore, in the script, they're 18 years old.
But come on.
Come on.
I don't blame you for finding the word weird though, it's not something you'll come across very often unless you're discussing the lore of something. Star Wars starting up again and deleting 90% of the universe was most people's crash course into what is canon or not.
Thought exercise.
How much of Estival would you say is just pure smut? I'd say 40%, mostly because, though there is dramatically more combat, it's most recycled and, at the end of the day, you're doing it to get the unlockables, most of which are extremely pervy items, costumes and gestures.
What percentage of a game would you say defines what that game is? Like...where is the cutoff? When does, for example, Sea Of Thieves stop being a multiplayer action game and becomes a social lobby with loose games to keep people interested? When does the narrative part of Destiny, and RPG by definition, take a back seat in order to push the meat of the gameplay, the shooting.
When does the fanservice nature of a fanservice title completely supercede literally everything else it has to offer? Because my argument is that that is exactly what all of the Senran Kagura games do. Sacrifice everything in the name of fanservice.
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