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  1. Dary

    Dary
    Member

    I remember going off on a massive rant when that image first did the rounds. I don't think it did my social standing any favours, lols.
     
  2. TubaZef

    TubaZef
    Member

    Kinda sad to see how SNK is treating this game considering how they had some of the most elegant and respectful designs for women characters in the 90s:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Of course, there were things like their clothes being ripped off when they lost in the early KOF games but let's focus on the fact that they are not wearing bikinis and have bodies with normal proportions.
     
  3. RM8

    RM8
    Member

    This picture above is heartbreaking, lol. And no one thought those designs were prudish or anything, they were well liked.

    It was a massive improvement, I'm kind of nervous they might regress in MK11, lol.
     
  4. Velezcora

    Velezcora
    Member

    It's a spin-off though. It's not like this is the next mainline KoF title. It's no different than the fans making sexual fan art of these characters except it's an official product aimed at those fans.

    Of course criticise it if you don't like it.
    I say this as someone not even remotely interested in the game. I don't like the new designs. I don't like how uncomfortable all the girls look in the game. As long as SNK keeps this stuff in a spin-off it's fine.
     
  5. Dary

    Dary
    Member

    And then you read
    The cultural dissonance on display is pretty amazing.
     
  6. It got a little better. Not always ideal, but better.

    Left is MK9, right is MKX.

    And these are new characters.

    There are some other designs I'm not sure about, like Kitana and, to a lesser extent, D'Vorrah.
     
  7. esserius

    esserius
    Member

    What's worse about it is that most do not even consider it an issue. Women being treated like sex dolls in media is just the "natural state" of things. (The argument of, "that's just how it is" comes up with disturbing frequency.)

    Frustrates the hell out of me how much certain aspects of game media have regressed in the past ten or twenty years. And so far it looks like it's getting worse, not better.
     
  8. Mewshuji

    Mewshuji
    Member

    Right, that interview about SNK Heroines set me right off. Here's what I had to say in the topic about it.
    Like. C'mon man. Own up to it at least.

    It'd be even better if they weren't sexualized, sure, but if they're going to... Own up to it.
     
  9. ShyMel

    ShyMel
    Member

    That is what really gets me sometimes. Just say you want to see women in bikinis and such. Do not try and hide it with some "Oh there is a good reason blah blah" comment that usually ends of falling flat.
     
  10. PtM

    PtM
    Self-requested temporary ban. Member

    Ya'll gonna be ashamed of your words and deeds.
     
  11. 4Tran

    4Tran
    Member

    I don't think that this is entirely fair. It has gotten better for AAA games, and I'm seeing a lot of indie developers try to do a better job. The issues are being acknowledged now, and even games journalists are starting to cover this kind of thing. The big problem spot is Japan; and there it really has gotten worse.
     
  12. Kriegshand

    Kriegshand
    Member

    My opinion:

    There in nothing wrong with sexualisation in media. Lust is created by imagination and for that reason it is the strongest impetus for media in general. To adore the anatomy of the human body is natural an nothing wrong. Some of the greatest books and films wouldn't have been made without this impetus. Think of it.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Weltall Zero

    Weltall Zero
    Member

    You have absolutely zero fucking clue what "sexualization" means in this context.

    Also lol at condescending comments like "think of it" from someone who's cripplingly unequipped to discuss the topic, let alone look down on people who've doing it for months.
     
  14. Xaszatm

    Xaszatm
    Member

    Sexualization =/= Sexualized and Objectification. One can admire the human body without turning it into a pile of meat to masturbate too.
     
  15. Mewshuji

    Mewshuji
    Member

    Methinks you haven't read the OP. No one in here is saying exploring sexuality or sexualization is inherently bad. It's the objectification and over-rampant representation of women in sexualized designs that's the issue.

    Women want to be able to see themselves represented in media, games especially, without them being designed with the male gaze in mind, and that's REALLY hard right now, especially with Japanese games (Western game devs are starting to catch on, thankfully). That's all. I don't think that's really that big an ask, and hell, I want it too.
     
  16. Kriegshand

    Kriegshand
    Member

    This is pure objectification and there is northing wrong with it.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Weltall Zero

    Weltall Zero
    Member

    You cannot possibly believe Michelangelo's David is objetifying its subject matter. I refuse to believe anyone is that clueless.

    Unless you're trying to make the obvious pun that it's literally an "object", in which case congratulations, I guess?
     
  18. Xaszatm

    Xaszatm
    Member

    Yet notice how his posture is set up. Notice that he isn't thrusting his pelvis in front of the camera. I mean, look at statues of women from that same period now compare that to the cheesecake found in video game women designs. It's all about angles and focus. This objectification is admiring the entire body, not just the penis. Women need to contort their body so their breasts and ass need to be shown in modern games. Like, this is one of the most famous greek statues of women:
    Notice how, despite being naked, she isn't as objectified as some more modern forms as female costume design. This is what we are talking about.
     
  19. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    Bruh, why are acting so damn aggressive. Chill out, if hes wrong correct him on where he misspoke, but dont act like a prick to people.
     
  20. MattWilsonCSS

    MattWilsonCSS
    Banned Member

    I dunno, this thread has debunked a lot of this shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and it's even in the OP. At this point the thread is a community of people ready to move on to deeper discussion but there are still these drivebys ignoring the OP and then repeating the same talking points people are flat out exhausted from 'debating'. I think people have a right to get annoyed at this point.
     
  21. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    I understand that, but that is still no reason to be acting like that. Correct where he is wrong and move on, there's no reason to belittle the person, that's just bad netiquette.
     
  22. Kriegshand

    Kriegshand
    Member

    The legend tells this statue is so true to life that there was a young man in the celia of the temple trying to have sexual intercourse with it. Just because it is not modern style does not mean it isn't sexualisation.
     
  23. Dary

    Dary
    Member

    If video games could approach these matters with maturity and nuance, that'd be great. Unfortunately, video games are less L'Age d'Or and more Zombie Strippers...
     
  24. esserius

    esserius
    Member

    Not gonna lie, I laughed.
    I'm pretty sure many of us have just reached a point where our collective tolerance for stupid has dropped considerably.
     
  25. Kriegshand

    Kriegshand
    Member

    • User Warned: Derailing the thread with a nonsensical comparison
    It's not the videogames it's the consumers. The industry is just an assistant to bring imagination to life. Now tell me to give everyone injections to lower their desires like it was done with gay people not too long ago.
     
  26. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    I dosent matter This isnt your day job, take a break if you must, but the way Weltall Zero has been acting in this thread is just unacceptable. Every one of his comments just tends to reek of smugness and condescension . That kind of tone just makes people want to argue and disagree with you because you're being such nause.

    Im definitely guilty of doing that earlier in the thread and I hate that. I dont like how I handled myself a couple of months ago, and I try to not write in a sarcastic or smug tone constantly. But Weltall Zero has consistently done this, and it hurts his position greatly.
     
  27. esserius

    esserius
    Member

    [​IMG]
     
  28. Twig

    Twig
    Member

    "Bad netiquette" is coming into a thread without reading any of it and acting like you know more than everyone else who's already posting in it.

    Vitriol deserved.
     
  29. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    Well two things.

    1. Why does no one just quote my post instead of posting in the thread? I wont get your notification if you do that.

    2.Yeah, that was dumb. Dont immediately go on the attack like that! I mean the thread dosent really get going till like page 30, so I can understand if someone just skims the OP and makes what they feel will be a strong argument. I you feel they are wrong, correct them on some things and see if you can come to a similar conclusion, but dont respond to people with that kind of shitty, smug tone (not you, Weltall Zero), it does no one any favors.
     
  30. Kriegshand

    Kriegshand
    Member

    esserius

    You know there were experiments with rats in the 1950s by James Olds. Even while suffering hunger these rats prefered to have sexual stimulation leading to death. Just accept there is a natural reward system thousand times more powerful than any lootbox system.
     
  31. rras1994

    rras1994
    Member

    I saw you in the earliar thread having ago at another person for being in a thread cus they weren't going to buy the game, and you weren't exactly that nice in doing it. In fact a lot of your comments in that thread could be considered quite hostile in tone. Do you think that harms your position?
     
  32. Mewshuji

    Mewshuji
    Member

    HypedBeast I want to agree with you but Kriegshand is clearly not arguing in good faith. The man's bringing up ancient studies about rats in talking about fucking representation in video games.

    And what does rats liking sex have ANYTHING to do with why a lot of people would like to have women characters who don't exist to be sexual objects?
    Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Unless you're contending the only reason to have female characters is for the sake of the sexual gaze of the audience. In which case, get out.
     
  33. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    Yeah I also felt that was shitty to keep pressing him for not buying the game. Im gonna try to apologize to him for acting rude.
     
  34. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    In my defense, I made my post before he started going off on some other shit, that was my bad.
     
  35. Dary

    Dary
    Member

    Why does it always come down to "you want better representation for women in video games ergo you're a prude who hates T&A"?
     
  36. rras1994

    rras1994
    Member

    I think it is easy to be a bit harsh, specially in a thread where the same point gets brought up again and again, when it's already been explained before. I think the reason that people have become more snarky in this thread is there have been far too many people coming in to bring these points up disingenuously, it's hard to take them at face value anymore. I know recently in forums (not this forum), I've regretted being polite in explaining an issue cus people they turn around and act very aggressive, and make me seem like I'm the one being crazy and unreasonable. I've started just not saying anything at all, rather than explaining my position cus it's very tiring. It's why I understand the sarcastic tone going on in this thread. Though I do think it's good on you for apologising for being aggressive, most people would not do that.
     
  37. Redcrayon

    Redcrayon
    Member

    The thread isn’t about sexualisation in media in general and desire for it as part of the human condition. It’s about the way that female characters and designs/costumes in particular are sexualised in games in a way that men aren’t. The ludicrous anatomy proportions, the infantilisation of women, the way the costumes of adventurers can run closer to lingerie than armour even when a male and female character wear the same item.

    Let’s discuss the image you’ve posted here in the context of this thread. Boobplate aside, would a male adventurer pair a skintight, figure-hugging breastplate with no padding beneath, apparently also designed to disembowell the groin, with a pair of shorts? Why is the cloak longer than her legs? There’s a trip hazard if ever I saw one! Assuming that the idea is that the sword has it’s point in the ground, I’m not sure how she can swing it’s giant arcs without getting it trapped in the giant cloak apparently chosen for warmth while also picking the miniskirt+1 from the elven armoury. At least the body parts look roughly in proportion, although I question how effectively she’s going to use a sword with a grip wider than her wrist. With regard to the boobplate, it’s obviously ridiculous and deliberately confuses armour with a corset, but I do like the wreath/plant detail that presumably has some connection to the green material, forest background and similar design on her leather vambrace.

    Presumably there’s a reason for the Fleur-de-lys headband, but it’s a shame none of the detail elements are carried through onto her generic-fantasy sword that she’s wielding like a pole in need of a dancer. Would a male adventurer choose this pose? If not, why not? I feel like male adventurers with greatswords tend to be depicted with it either about to decapitate someone or balanced stoically on their shoulder rather than have their thigh caressing it.

    It’s a nice painting, I like it as a lifelong fan of fantasy stuff, but it would be nice to see women in games treated like heroic adventurers and equipped as such rather than just pin-ups designed to titillate first and offer information about the character/world second.
     
  38. Xaszatm

    Xaszatm
    Member

    As an asexual, this is laughable. I'm sorry that you believe that sex is so vital to your life that you think we would rather have sex than live. But that's not true for everyone. It's certainly not true for me. But then again, you haven't been arguing in good faith at all, have you?
     
  39. Xaszatm

    Xaszatm
    Member

    Because they deep down they just want titty and will go to absurb lengths to justify it.
     
  40. Windrunner

    Windrunner
    Member

    This post is like the results of when 2 Google Homes start talking to each other for a week.
     
  41. Weltall Zero

    Weltall Zero
    Member

    You guys realize HypedBeast is a concern troll whose only contribution to this thread has ever been constant tone policing, right? Just put him on ignore, report him if you want, and move on; stop feeding him.

    On a side note, it's never not creepy to click that "show ignored content" button to see what everyone is replying to and realize he's still obsessed with me. :S
     
  42. Twig

    Twig
    Member

    I often don't quote people because it's a button I have to press and I'm too lazy to scroll back up and find it after reaching the bottom of the page.

    Anyway, I don't think it's on the marginalized or those arguing in their favor to be nice all the time to everyone forever. I think that's kind of a shitty demand to make, in fact.

    And FWIW it's not so much what that person said. It's how they said it. I mean, what they said comes from a position of ignorance, but the way they presented that ignorance makes it seem willful. A condescending "I know better than you why are you so upset" attitude does nothing to earn a respectful response.
     
  43. Twig

    Twig
    Member

    Ah... Welp.
     
  44. Dice

    Dice
    Member

    BUHLEAVE IT OR NOT---- you will never die because you your dick didn't get stroked. It's not ideal, sex is fantastic and all that, but not having it won't kill us.
    Comparing people to rats is strange. We are not rats, nor have I seen people prioritize fucking someone when we're hungry.

    What even is that post.

    Are you simply trying to say people like to fuck? Because we certainly didn't need rat data to figure that out.
     
  45. HypedBeast

    HypedBeast
    Member

    Labels are fun.But like I said, your toxic attitude is really damaging. Also this is the only other time Ive mentioned you, I just see you showing your ass so much I thought I would bring it up.
     
  46. esserius

    esserius
    Member

    I accept that fan service games, and other games like them, exist. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about them, nor take part in the childish reverence and jubilation so many seem happy to provide them. It also doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to voice my distaste, and I'll continue to do so because I'm tired of them taking up so much of the industry's time. If nothing else, they distract far too greatly from conversations games and those around them could be talking about. But instead we're still here, caught up in just getting people to realize that there might be a problem.

    If another fan service game never came into existence, I could say that I'd only be far more pleased than where we currently stand.
     
  47. Persephone

    Persephone
    Member OP

    Just started replaying Mass Effect 2 and mmmmm the female characters' outfits are so... nope. Miranda's spandex boob sock bodysuit, Jack's belt bra, Samara's cleavage... then of course there's the issues the series has as a whole with the Asari and that kind of shit. It's a shame because I love the game and this kind of nonsense is hampering my enjoyment of it.
     
  48. Twig

    Twig
    Member

    Yeah pretty much i'd love to never talk about sexism again.

    But you gotta talk about it to make it go away so people don't talk about it.

    Not that it'll ever go completely away, but you know. Maybe it won't be so ever-fucking-present.

    Replace sexism with any other problematic shit for giggles.
     
  49. Hecht

    Hecht
    Welp Administrator

    Let's cool it with the tone policing. If you have a problem with a user, provide an actionable report - but don't keep harping on it in the thread and derailing.
     
  50. Weltall Zero

    Weltall Zero
    Member

    I think we need to start learning to ignore these interruptions, myself included. When someone that clearly doesn't understand or care for the difference between sexualization and sexuality wanders into the thread, I think engaging them is never going to be any more fruitful as trying to teach quantum physics to an average three year old that just wandered into the lecture hall.
     
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