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French court says marital sex 'duty', wife puts case to ECHR
French court says marital sex 'duty', wife puts case to ECHR
www.connexionfrance.com
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Wife who was sanctioned by French court for refusing to have sex with husband lodges appeal with European court
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
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www.connexionfrance.com
Object if old
I'm kinda conflicted on this. The woman should have autonomy to not have sex absolutely.
But, in a situation where they were having sex and then suddenly stopped? I do think if one party completely abandons marital activities for an extended period of time, the other party should be able to leave without fault. Sex is a part of normal marriage without some intense conversation and consent beforehand and a sudden withdrawal from that side of the marriage would be fairly impossible to maintain a relationship, right?
I guess the difference here is at fault vs no fault?
The law should absolutely stay out of the bedroom. Are we still in the 50s?
A legal obligation to marriage: sex. Give me a break.
Does fault in divorce proceedings factor at all into the final divorce agreement in France? Does France have a no-fault divorce?
I’m just getting an incomplete picture of the legal situation from the article.
I’m just getting an incomplete picture of the legal situation from the article.
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This is super disgusting but the title makes it seem like she was sentenced to sleeping with the guy. What happened is they considered the divorce cause to be exclusively the lack of sex, which they blame only on her and, as a consequence, the divorce is only her fault.
This is fucked though, because obviously they are ignoring a lot of things that lead to a couple getting divorced or a person not wanting to sleep with another, and certainly the argumentation is disgusting and the precedence of saying that marital duties must include sex is dangerous as fuck. I do think the title should make it clear this is over why they are getting a divorce because that is actually something that happens in other countries too.
This is fucked though, because obviously they are ignoring a lot of things that lead to a couple getting divorced or a person not wanting to sleep with another, and certainly the argumentation is disgusting and the precedence of saying that marital duties must include sex is dangerous as fuck. I do think the title should make it clear this is over why they are getting a divorce because that is actually something that happens in other countries too.
But they are involving the law when they get married and then again when getting divorced. Cheating on a spouse has the same legal effect of considering a person at fault for divorce, by which I mean, the law is constantly involved in the bedroom.
If a person can prove someone withdrew emotionally from the marriage, that person will be found at fault as well. It's just how divorce court works, they determine who's fault it is that two people are breaking up and, the thing is, unhappiness with sex life is a completely legitimate reason to want to end a relationship.
Edit: for clarification, I do think it's fucked they said sex is an obligation of marriage. I'm just saying, if someone wants to divorce someone over lack of sex, they totally can.
“Sanctioned” is doing a lot of work in english I don’t know if it had the same weight in English.
This a case of constructive abandonment. Making the marriage so unlivable for the other spouse they have to leave the marriage and ask for a divorce. The law sees the abandoning party as “at-fault” and the cause of the divorce. Other constructive abandonments is abuse, withholding money, cheating, etc.
No one is obligating her to have sex in a marriage. The “obligations of marriage” seems like it’s a weird reference to some term of art or mistranslation. French law doesn’t force you to have sex.
Does anyone have a link to a french source. The only link I can find is the one in the article that links to the press release from the feminist organization that’s representing here. All the language comes from there
This article just says she was found responsible. Not mention of sanction (which in french I believe means punished)
www.mediapart.fr
Basically I can find no source that the court actually said those things the article in the OP claims. They’re all lifted from a press release criticizing the move with no quotes from the court.
I’d happily be wrong, I’m not the best at finding french sources
This a case of constructive abandonment. Making the marriage so unlivable for the other spouse they have to leave the marriage and ask for a divorce. The law sees the abandoning party as “at-fault” and the cause of the divorce. Other constructive abandonments is abuse, withholding money, cheating, etc.
No one is obligating her to have sex in a marriage. The “obligations of marriage” seems like it’s a weird reference to some term of art or mistranslation. French law doesn’t force you to have sex.
Does anyone have a link to a french source. The only link I can find is the one in the article that links to the press release from the feminist organization that’s representing here. All the language comes from there
This article just says she was found responsible. Not mention of sanction (which in french I believe means punished)
Divorce: French woman ‘at fault’ for ending sexual relations with husband
A 66-year-old woman has lost all her appeals in France against a divorce case ruling that she was at fault in the collapse of her marriage after refusing to continue to have sexual relations with her husband. This month she submitted an ultimate appeal before the European Court of Human Rights...
www.mediapart.fr
Basically I can find no source that the court actually said those things the article in the OP claims. They’re all lifted from a press release criticizing the move with no quotes from the court.
I’d happily be wrong, I’m not the best at finding french sources
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I feel like it's just as much a 50's thing to pretend that human beings aren't sexual beings with needs for that kind of physical connections. Do you think that if one person feels sex is important and the other doesn't want sex at all that they should stay married?
What is "sanctioned by court"? Is she being penalized for not having sex with him? Did she commit a crime?
Good points. I just feel that legally faulting somebody, especially a woman, for not having sex in the confine of a marriage isn't the thing to do. Depending on context, I get that lack of sex can be very problematic for a couple, but should the law have anything to say about it? I would say fuck no! But I do understand your points about having to litigate a divorce.
Yeah, if she was assessed monetary damages (or he was frankly) this would be terrible violation. This seems like the situation where everyone just goes their separate ways because it ain't working. Separation of assets might be a huge issue though.
So far I can only find it in a press release which doesn’t use it formally. Just says she was punished for withholding sex
Marriage is a legal contract. And yeah in case of divorce something like this can be factored into the question of blame.
And like most divorces there's no easy or clear determination especially from the outside.
And like most divorces there's no easy or clear determination especially from the outside.
You have to divide assets. That a legal issue. That’s what I’m assuming this is about. I imagine she’s likely wealthy.
Literally no one has an obligation to have sex with someone else, married or not.
Could also be that she refused the divorce. Unless you actually agree to get divorced, the judge comes in, in which case a fault has to be assigned to allow the divorce.
Nobody is saying they do. But it can be grounds for divorce.
It makes the marriage untenable, the state, which regulates civil marriages, some times has to decide whose “at-fault” which isn’t a condemnation insomuch as it’s a causation. The state in many jurisdictions has the doctrine of “abandonment” where the abandoning party is cause of the divorce. This need not be literal, here the court (a few courts it seems) found constructively there was an implied physicality to the relationship which one party abandoned leading the other to want out. The court is saying that abandoning party is the cause.
I don’t know the remedies their seeking which could morally make this reprehensible. Does french have community property (assets acquired during marriage are joint property)?
It looks like they do have community property which is likely what lead to this.
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That's not what I said. Sex is considered an expected part of a healthy marriage. If one partner doesn't want to engage in sex anymore that can be grounds for divorce. And when it comes to division of assets something like that is a valid reason.
Wait, in all divorce cases you have to decide who's "at fault"?
Oh shit missed this post, OK then
Oh shit missed this post, OK then
It should be a cause for divorce and should be one factor in weighing who and how much in the division of assets. I highly doubt this would be the only factor and probably a very minor one.
In certain situations yes. Especially if there are a lot of assets, etc. in question and one party feels harmed.
I'd wager that he filed for divorce, then the negociation for spiltting their belongings went bad, thus lead to a court ruling. And the refusal of sex would have been brought by the husband as a reason for him to get more. I guess. Or maybe he filed for divorce and she refused to sign the papers, so he went to justice to force it on her. Maybe ?
Anything else wouldn't make sense.
I don't believe thats true for a while now, every state in the USA allows no fault divorces. I honestly don't know though how it relates to the other aspects like prenuptial agreements, asset splitting, alimony, custody of children, on and on.
It looks like france has community property. So all assets would be divided equally upon divorce. Which is likely why she might not want one or be the abandoning party. His argument is likely. “Listen I want sex which she’s not providing so I want out” (he’s divorcing not requiring the sex) after the divorce assets including those she earned by herself (salaries, pensions, property) are equally divided.
California has community property which is where I learned it but it’s no fault so I’m not sure if there’s a difference in france’s marital property regime
California has community property which is where I learned it but it’s no fault so I’m not sure if there’s a difference in france’s marital property regime
Edit: sorry misread
yeah that does make it feel like she was trying to fight the divorce itself.
No, but he got full custody of his kids and a favorable split of assets if I remember correctly.
This is pretty much how I feel on it.
At least in my state withholding sex without cause for 12 months or more is considered to be an abandonment of the marriage along with spousal abuse, cruelty, adultery, insanity, and physical abandonment, all constituting grounds for an at-fault divorce.
Seems more like a problem with the language of s. 242 of the Civil Code when applied to this very specific scenario. It's pretty ridiculous to call that a "a serious and repeated violation of the obligations of marriage", but it looks like it was the only ground for divorce applicable as she probably wasn't consenting and France doesn't seem to have "lived separately for X months" as a ground for divorce.
Wtf is at-fault divorce? Is there some sort of punishment for it as opposed to amicable separation?
The court will probably treat you less favourably when dividing the property.
When one party withholds divorce the other party can, with cause, go to the court to get a court order separation and division of assets. It’s based upon law and precedent. Amicable separation can use the law but often times it’s basically just a separation and a contract for division of assets that can be whatever the parties want
That’s fucked an “at-fault” divorce changes the distribution of assets amongst parties.