• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Which console was worse for its company?

  • Sega Saturn

  • Wii U


Results are only viewable after voting.

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Sega had a ~3 year hardware life cycle, so a failure like the Saturn would be replaced more quickly (Saturn launched november 1994 and Dreamcast launched 4 years later, but generally Sega had an addon or new console every 3 years or so). The problem was that because Sega has a 3 year hardware life cycle, their audience was not as trusting, their developers were too spread out over so many hardware projects and arcades, and ultimately failure after failure, without the conservative approach that Nintendo takes to spending, left Sega without the capital to ride a successful product like the Dreamcast.

Nintendo was able to learn from the Wii U, no, the Switch is not a direct successor to the Wii U, as many people like to think, the Switch is the natural result of Nintendo's handheld and console hardware teams merging, and the technology leap mobile had made from smart phones. Nintendo wanted you to think of the Wii U as just a box, a delivery system for the games, but the Switch dock is exactly that, just a box that you plug your handheld into, so it can become a traditional home console. The Switch also uses every piece of tech that Nintendo has used up to this point, except for the Wii U's one defining feature, asynchronous gameplay via the Gamepad and TV being used at the same time. All other aspects of Nintendo's previous hardware consoles, is actually captured pretty well inside the Switch, heck with Labo VR, it can even replicate the Virtual boy.

Saturn fractured Sega's hardware branches, while their North American branch was making Neptune (A 32X standalone system). Sega Japan built the Saturn, meanwhile: "a successor to the Sega Saturn was being considered by the firm even before the console had been released." Sega Saturn was never something Sega was happy with, it was always chasing something more powerful, and finally got that with the Dreamcast. Had the Dreamcast actually launched world wide in September 1998 instead of 1998 in Japan and 1999 in the west, I think Sega would have had enough capital to survive the launch of the other 3 consoles, Sega may have bowed out a year or two with 4 or 5 years of Dreamcast support, something that I (who bought a Dreamcast on launch as my first and only Sega console) would have appreciated. Who knows what could have happened, but Saturn was a problem that killed any chance of Dreamcast actually working.

Hypothetical warning:
There is only one argument that I think can be made to Wii U being a bigger failure, and that is again timing with console launches. Everything about the Switch was possible in 2015, the Tegra X1 launched Spring of 2015, had the Wii U not have been on the market. We actually saw at E3 2015 that the company gave up on the Wii U, just watch their digital event and tell me they weren't trying to avoid the Wii U as a product. If in 2008 instead of planning the Wii U, they just planned to release a Wii Pro, a HD capable Wii console, they could have extended the Wii's life another 2 years with a Wii Pro release in 2010 and launching games across both 3DS and Wii Pro in 2012-2014, with a Switch launch in Spring 2015, on the launch titles Splatoon, MarioKart 8 and DKTF, with a holiday Mario Maker.

Ramble warning:
This argument is on the assumption that with an early launch for the Switch, it could have competed even better against the base XB1 and PS4, which didn't have their midgen refreshes until ~18 and ~30 months after the Switch's launch, if Switch had launched in 2015, it would have a successor coming in 2021 most likely, putting the Switch successor in line with next gen consoles, instead of a likely 2023 launch, putting it right in the middle of the PS5/XBnext's life cycle. It would have also meant we got breath of the wild in late 2016, not really changing much here, but you can absolutely start to see the benefits of being more instep with the current consoles. It would have also changed the life sales total of the Switch, likely in a positive way, giving it's current sales another 35-40 Million, or doubling it's 25 month mark of ~35 Million consoles. Having 75 to 80 Million Switch consoles on the market, would set up the Switch successor in 2021 a lot more than the current Switch's ~40 Million consoles is setting up the successor's 2023 launch. Yes more developers will be on board, but if Switch was part of the current generation's life cycle, it would mean that it's massive success could more seemlessly fit into next generation, right now there are developers and gamers who don't know if Switch will continue to be a success when PS5 and XBnext launch, rather than everyone starting the generation off close together, and on the success and failures of their previous platforms right behind them.
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
The failure of SaturncostSega so much they could'nt promote and supportDreamcast properly. Saturn definitely.
 

Madao

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,696
Panama
the Saturn killed Sega as a hardware maker (the Dreamcast needed to be as sucessful as the Wii to save the company as told by experts iirc which means the damage the Saturn did was enough to sink the ship)

the Wii U is already pretty much forgotten since Nintendo bounced back better than the GC->Wii comeback.
 

Empyrean Cocytus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
18,707
Upstate NY
I think looking at where Sega and Nintendo are today makes the answer pretty obvious.

Nintendo released a really damn good follow-up, and are now stronger than they have ever been.

Sega released a really damn good follow-up, nobody bought it due to the most-popular console ever made coming six months later, and that killed their hardware business.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
the Saturn killed Sega as a hardware maker (the Dreamcast needed to be as sucessful as the Wii to save the company as told by experts iirc which means the damage the Saturn did was enough to sink the ship)

the Wii U is already pretty much forgotten since Nintendo bounced back better than the GC->Wii comeback.
Yeah the Wii U is nearly completely erased, with almost it's entire catalog being available on it's successor. Only maybe half a dozen more Nintendo published games to go. Starfox Zero, #FE, Xenoblade X, Fatal Frame maiden of the black water, Nintendoland, Wonderful 101, Warioware game (probably not coming over ever). I mean that makes the Wii U almost a complete non issue for the history of Nintendo, a blip.
 

Dinobot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,126
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Sega followed up with the Dreamcast, a console that came too early out of panic because of the failure of the Saturn. The PS2 smoked it because of it.

Nintendo followed up the Wii U with the Switch, which is setting the world on fire and is pacing towards Wii-like numbers.

Take a good guess which console hurt their company more.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,314
Columbus, OH
I think looking at where Sega and Nintendo are today makes the answer pretty obvious.

Nintendo released a really damn good follow-up, and are now stronger than they have ever been.

Sega released a really damn good follow-up, nobody bought it due to the most-popular console ever made coming six months later, and that killed their hardware business.

The Dreamcast released in 1998 and the Playstation 2 released in 2000.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,782
I love the Saturn, but it's hard to argue it wasn't a bigger failure. At the same time, I'd actually argue it did better for Sega than the Wii U did for Nintendo. The real issue has nothing to do with the success or failure of one system. Nintendo has a warchest and had a second system (3DS) to fall back on. They didn't lose much money during the Wii U days and still had billions in the bank. It could've been an even worse failure and they would've survived. Nintendo also learned how to promote what they had for less and less money. The Saturn on the other hand came after the Sega CD and 32X and Sega just couldn't salvage itself after another failure. And Sega didn't know how to spend less.

They both did a decent job adjusting to criticisms of their previous systems. Dreamcast had better third-party support in America (a bigger market), had built-in online support, an even larger emphasis on multiplayer, and a dramatically easier development environment. But even if the Dreamcast sold like crazy, it wouldn't have saved them. They were already dead.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,670
The Wii U sucked, but Nintendo was also on top of the world in the portable market at the time.

The Saturn tanked so bad that Sega was forced to replace it almost immediately.
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,314
Columbus, OH

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,505
I love the Saturn, but it's hard to argue it wasn't a bigger failure. At the same time, I'd actually argue it did better for Sega than the Wii U did for Nintendo. The real issue has nothing to do with the success or failure of one system. Nintendo has a warchest and had a second system (3DS) to fall back on. They didn't lose much money during the Wii U days and still had billions in the bank. It could've been an even worse failure and they would've survived. Nintendo also learned how to promote what they had for less and less money. The Saturn on the other hand came after the Sega CD and 32X and Sega just couldn't salvage itself after another failure. And Sega didn't know how to spend less.

They both did a decent job adjusting to criticisms of their previous systems. Dreamcast had better third-party support in America (a bigger market), had built-in online support, an even larger emphasis on multiplayer, and a dramatically easier development environment. But even if the Dreamcast sold like crazy, it wouldn't have saved them. They were already dead.

Was the Mega CD a financial failure? It had tons of great games so it was great from an end user pov.
 

oliverandm

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,177
Copenhagen, Denmark
This is a very dumb question. We know the outcome of SEGA and their financial troubles. Same cannot be said for Nintendo.

We also know that Nintendo has found great succes with Switch, so they didn't alienate their crowd as much as attract a new one.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Sorry, I was going solely by the North American market.
The PS2 launched 13 months later than the Dreamcast in North America (October 2000) Andymcc beat me to it.
The Saturn isn't a "bad" system-- quite the contrary. In fact, I'd say the Saturn is a MUCH better system than the Wii U.
I'd argue that Wii U has far more impressive catalog of exclusives than Saturn, it's main problem is that almost all of them are on the Switch now, including arguably Switch's best game, Breath of the Wild. I don't know what measurement you are using, but Wii U is virtually better in every aspect.
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,023
I am very surprised people exist who voted Wii U, considering the impact of Wii U on Switch (giving it a headstart in terms of game content) and Saturn on Dreamcast (tainting Sega's image as a hardware maker).
 

Team_Feisar

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,353
Off-Topic but Software-attach-rates always get me.

~10 (Wii U) is high and I can see me hit that in a month alone when an especially good sale drops.
Damn. I should buy less games.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,505
I am very surprised people exist who voted Wii U, considering the impact of Wii U on Switch (giving it a headstart in terms of game content) and Saturn on Dreamcast (tainting Sega's image as a hardware maker).

I voted wii u, because I consider Sega's issues at the time to be far more decisions they made around it (32x, early launch, price point) then the console itself. Whereas with the Wii U, the hardware itself had a lot of issues. Underpowered with a hideously slow os and update speed etc. Both had annoying archs to program for, though Saturn was obv worse in this aspect...and yet it ended up with a far better games library

If the question was who was making worse decisions at the time, it would absolutely be Sega though.
 

Bigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,635
Saturn was such a flop that the Dreamcast's moderate success wasn't enough to save Sega from going nearly bankrupt and going third party out of necessity. The writing was already on the wall.

The Wii U was a significant failure but Nintendo has plenty of money in the bank so they were never in any real financial danger and they've been able to rebound pretty successfully with the Switch.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,761
Historically Saturn.

I love both tho and think they have great gems in their library. Wish I could've experienced Saturn in its prime, even if that was like 2 years
 

Deleted member 10726

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,674
ResetERA
I am very surprised people exist who voted Wii U, considering the impact of Wii U on Switch (giving it a headstart in terms of game content) and Saturn on Dreamcast (tainting Sega's image as a hardware maker).

From the few replies of the people who voted WiiU, I think some people read "Wii U vs Sega Saturn, which "failed console" was worse" and didn't go on to read the "for its company?" afterwards.

Since without a doubt, the Saturn was absolutely worse since it was the nail in the coffin for SEGA's console efforts, which is a pity given with the Dreamcast they put a lot of effort into trying to correct the mistake but alas it was too late. Meanwhile the WiiU was just a console that didn't sell well, but even then as you correctly mention, Nintendo could capitalize on its library to help the Switch's early lifespan.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
To believe that the Saturn was bad for Sega is entirely ignoring the Japanese market.

The Wii U was the far bigger failure. It didn't "hurt" Nintendo as much because their pockets went far deeper than Sega's ever did, but there's no universe where the Wii U wasn't the bigger bomb.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
I voted wii u, because I consider Sega's issues at the time to be far more decisions they made around it (32x, early launch, price point) then the console itself. Whereas with the Wii U, the hardware itself had a lot of issues. Underpowered with a hideously slow os and update speed etc. Both had annoying archs to program for, though Saturn was obv worse in this aspect...and yet it ended up with a far better games library

If the question was who was making worse decisions at the time, it would absolutely be Sega though.
The console itself was far overpriced at $399, PSX launched at $299 and N64 at $199 a couple years later. There was plenty wrong with the Saturn, a lot of it being that it was losing developers faster than any other Sega product, it's competition was clearly better, not just in the games but also console design. It actually didn't offer any uniqueness to it's customers that I'm aware of, while you could at least say that the Wii U was a media device, tablet, limited handheld, and had a much more critically acclaimed library than Saturn.
 

Deleted member 49535

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 10, 2018
2,825
We really are running out of ideas for a thread, aren't we.

Sega is barely relevant in the console market anymore, the answer is as clear as the day.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,894
The failure of SaturncostSega so much they could'nt promote and supportDreamcast properly. Saturn definitely.
I don't disagree that the Saturn was the final nail in the coffin for Sega.

But how much more could Sega have supported and promoted the Dreamcast? It was heavily promoted (at least in the US) and in terms of support that first year was one of the best first years I can ever remember for any console. I think they supported and promoted it properly, but too many people were caught up in the PS2 hype and already committed to that platform so the DC was dead before it was even released.

At least that is how I remember it.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,505
The console itself was far overpriced at $399, PSX launched at $299 and N64 at $199 a couple years later. There was plenty wrong with the Saturn, a lot of it being that it was losing developers faster than any other Sega product, it's competition was clearly better, not just in the games but also console design. It actually didn't offer any uniqueness to it's customers that I'm aware of, while you could at least say that the Wii U was a media device, tablet, limited handheld, and had a much more critically acclaimed library than Saturn.

Yes, I mentioned the price point. It had the uniqueness of having by far the best 2D arcade game ports, and the various sega divisions making exclusive games for it.

I also absolutely disagree with your point that the competition had clearly better games.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 249

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,828
Especially considering it is the same generation with the N64 lol
Some of the highest rated and most influential games of all time, which continue to influence the DNA of game development to this day, are on the N64.
That said, I do think that Saturn with the full import library is actually a far more rounded console in terms of software than N64 is.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
To believe that the Saturn was bad for Sega is entirely ignoring the Japanese market.

The Wii U was the far bigger failure. It didn't "hurt" Nintendo as much because their pockets went far deeper than Sega's ever did, but there's no universe where the Wii U wasn't the bigger bomb.
How about the universe of console sales? 9.25 Million to 13.6 Million.
In critical acclaimed library? Breath of the Wild [96], Super Mario 3D World [93] and 6 other games with a 90 or higher on metacritic.
Software Sales: Saturn's best selling game: Virtua Fighter 2 - 1.7 Million | Wii U's best selling game: Mario Kart 8 - over 8 Million.
I'm not sure what metric Saturn actually beats Wii U in, development difficulty? over engineering? To say that the Japanese market made the Saturn a success compared to the Wii U, is a bold statement, sure the Wii U sold less in Japan, but these consoles and these companies are global, and the difference in software sales even in Japan is clearly putting the Wii U over Saturn.
Yes, I mentioned the price point. It had the uniqueness of having by far the best 2D arcade game ports, and the various sega divisions making exclusive games for it.

I also absolutely disagree with your point that the competition had clearly better games.
PSX library was widely considered much much better than Saturn's. N64 had some of the best games of all time on it's platform, I'd argue the same for PSX. Meanwhile Saturn's best reviewed game is Nights afaik. Good, but OOT or Mario 64 good?
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
How about the universe of console sales? 9.25 Million to 13.6 Million.
In critical acclaimed library? Breath of the Wild [96], Super Mario 3D World [93] and 6 other games with a 90 or higher on metacritic.
Software Sales: Saturn's best selling game: Virtua Fighter 2 - 1.7 Million | Wii U's best selling game: Mario Kart 8 - over 8 Million.
I'm not sure what metric Saturn actually beats Wii U in, development difficulty? over engineering? To say that the Japanese market made the Saturn a success compared to the Wii U, is a bold statement, sure the Wii U sold less in Japan, but these consoles and these companies are global, and the difference in software sales even in Japan is clearly putting the Wii U over Saturn.

Lol, you're trying to seriously compare mid 90s sales to sales from just a few years ago? The business was an entiely different beast.

If you don't know anything about the Japanese librarly and life of the Saturn, it's time to actually look at it, instead of trying to sell the Wii U as anything but a (worldwide) disaster.
 

Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
Saturn killed Sega. They would still be in the console business if it wasn't for the Saturn disaster. They had a lot going for them coming from the popular Megadrive: experience with 3D games in arcades, incredible 1st party, good relation with 3rd parties, CD drive, access to the best hardware.

Both had amazing libraries in their ~4 year lifespan though, they're both my 2nd favorite consoles from those companies.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,801
New York City
I don't think the Wii U is a failure. Sales wise? Sure. But it allowed Nintendo to fully develop the concept of the Switch. I see the Wii U as a kind of Switch Beta. It also provided many games in the first and second year, allowing for a consitant stream of first-party releases. And it also showed Nintendo that it needs to change something and we can clearly see the effects with the Switch.

So.. Sega Saturn.
I would actually argue that the Wii U was a failure, simply because that time period was the only time they were losing money. But I agree that in the long run, it paved the way for the Switch and HD development for Nintendo in general, so it was good for them overall.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,505
PSX library was widely considered much much better than Saturn's. N64 had some of the best games of all time on it's platform, I'd argue the same for PSX. Meanwhile Saturn's best reviewed game is Nights afaik. Good, but OOT or Mario 64 good?

Ok, so you know nothing about the saturn. Please stop posting about it then.
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Lol, you're trying to seriously compare mid 90s sales to sales from just a few years ago? The business was an entiely different beast.

If you don't know anything about the Japanese librarly and life of the Saturn, it's time to actually look at it, instead of trying to sell the Wii U as anything but a (worldwide) disaster.
This thread is about the impact these consoles had on their companies, software sales is about the profit of that platform, it might be a different beast, but this is entirely a thread about which console hurt more, and Wii U's software sales weren't bad. It's hardware sales were also sold at a profit, which is something Saturn had to lose eventually as competition was much lower priced.

Sales in total for the Saturn is much lower than Wii U's, and yes even that generation's competitors sold similar to wii u's generation in total, so while you might wave hands and shout 90's, total system sales for gen 5 between Sega, Sony and Nintendo isn't that far from gen 6 or 7. (depending on where you place the wii u and the wii.) both consoles were failures, but saturn hurt Sega a lot more, partly because Nintendo had the 3ds, stayed with the wii u for 4 and a half years with great games, and ultimately were able to rebrand themselves, while Sega never was.
 

fontguy

Avenger
Oct 8, 2018
16,154
The Saturn was the "third strike" (after the Sega CD and the 32X) that cemented the public's doubt of Sega ever supporting their products again. The Dreamcast was probably fucked either way, but still.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,902
JP
Saturn did well in Japan but it was not intended, designed, budgeted, or marketed as a Japan only system, so I'm not sure how it's anything but a failure. It's like when people try to argue Vita didn't absolutely crater because it sold VNs in Japan.

Both were huge failures, but I guess Saturn did more damage.
 

Deleted member 7148

Oct 25, 2017
6,827
It's obviously the Saturn, but if I was going to pick the better console in terms of library, I would go with Saturn having a bigger impact on me personally.
 

JaredTaco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
710
To their credit, they tried their hardest to get Sonic on Saturn, circumstances and internal politics sunk the effort.

It's good they had a major Sonic game in development with Sonic Extreme, but SEGA's management should have convinced Sonic Team to make a 3D Sonic game before creating Nights: Into Dreams. I love Nights, but it's not a system seller.