Windows Central: "At launch, we've heard there won't be any "Xbox Scarlett"-exclusive games. For at least a few years (cont-)" [Update in OP]

DanFodio

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May 28, 2019
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If true, what exactly is the point of Lockhart? Won't the S serve as a sufficient budget model?
 

Crayon

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Oct 26, 2017
11,286
If true, what exactly is the point of Lockhart? Won't the S serve as a sufficient budget model?
Nah it's got to be better than that. The lockhart thing shou be an affordable nicely performing console. It doesn't have to be all that since as we've seen, the highest grade of consoles gets almost all the attention.
 

pg2g

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Dec 18, 2018
595
Microsoft's messaging on forward and backwards compatibility has always been kind of confusing so this doesn't entirely surprise me. Today's 1st party Xbox games are all being built for PCs (that are more powerful than next gen consoles will be) as well so it's not like they'd have a hard time scaling.
 

DanFodio

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May 28, 2019
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Nah it's got to be better than that. The lockhart thing shou be an affordable nicely performing console. It doesn't have to be all that since as we've seen, the highest grade of consoles gets almost all the attention.
The GPU performance of Lockhart is rumored to be near the X. With games still having to run on the jaguar CPUs (and thus it's Zen2 CPU being held back) what advantage will it hold over the X?
It's GPU won't have the grunt to push X quality at 60fps.
 

pg2g

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Dec 18, 2018
595
And yeah I believe this does kind of throw the necessity of Lockhart into question. Will be interesting to see how it all shakes out I guess.
 
Dec 31, 2017
649
My prediction is that a massively higher minimum target spec yields better results, yes. I understand not everyone believes so.
Unreal Engine 4 can scale as high as you want and yet scale down to a phone. Doesn't make UE4 games look less next gen on consoles and PCs though.

Also, you said games won't look as impressive when true next gen games will be available. Are you calling something like, let's say, Halo Infinite, not a true next gen game then? And how would you even know it's not a true next gen game? Even a game like BF5 and Metro Exodus can potentially look next gen on PC when you enable raytracing if you think about it as it's years ahead of what consoles can do right now.
 

VallenValiant

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Oct 27, 2017
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Microsoft's messaging on forward and backwards compatibility has always been kind of confusing so this doesn't entirely surprise me. Today's 1st party Xbox games are all being built for PCs (that are more powerful than next gen consoles will be) as well so it's not like they'd have a hard time scaling.
It isn't a matter of scaling.
It is a matter of minimum specs. PC gamers know about this already, but console gamers might have trouble comprehending it.
For every PC game, the studio had to decide where the cutoff potato hardware is for which they would no longer bother to support. The lower the minimum spec, the bigger the pool of computers they could theoretically sell the game to. But making that minimum too low, and game would look and play like a PS1 title. And adding more resolution wouldn't fix it.
In most cases, PC game studios only cater to the Recommended Spec, and the minimum spec would barely do anything more than load the game to the title screen. Still, HAVING a minimum spec, at least require that the game can load. And that in itself restricts what the game could do on higher spec machines.

The more "modern" the game is, the higher the minimum spec. Often with PC games, it is common for the sequel of a game to be nearly unplayable on a machine that run fine for its predecessor. Keeping the minimum spec unchanged, however, usually means the core of the game couldn't change.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Kinda makes sense. Most of ms studios are lower tier so I don't see them being that demanding.
 

Crayon

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Oct 26, 2017
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Unreal Engine 4 can scale as high as you want and yet scale down to a phone. Doesn't make UE4 games look less next gen on consoles and PCs though.

Also, you said games won't look as impressive when true next gen games will be available. Are you calling something like, let's say, Halo Infinite, not a true next gen game then? And how would you even know it's not a true next gen game? Even a game like BF5 and Metro Exodus can potentially look next gen on PC when you enable raytracing if you think about it as it's years ahead of what consoles can do right now.
Yes we understand that the same engine and even same game can scale from a high end pc to a phone. The question is how much better it could be it it didn't have to play on a phone. Maybe Halo will blow everything away as you say scaling from the scarlett version to the xb1 fat version. We'll see.

And again i'd like to state that ms wants full next gen games on the platform asap but they can't. Willing but not able.
 

duckroll

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Oct 25, 2017
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Singapore
If this applies specifically to first party games, it seems to suggest a lack of confidence in investing heavily into software as a driving force for hardware sales. Which is.... an odd way to approach the business given what we are used to. If MS themselves don't see the point of funding big budget games that can only be played on the next-gen hardware specs, why would that encourage third parties to take the next-gen hardware seriously?
 

VallenValiant

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Oct 27, 2017
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If this applies specifically to first party games, it seems to suggest a lack of confidence in investing heavily into software as a driving force for hardware sales. Which is.... an odd way to approach the business given what we are used to. If MS themselves don't see the point of funding big budget games that can only be played on the next-gen hardware specs, why would that encourage third parties to take the next-gen hardware seriously?
But that is why some of us disagree with this assessment. That MS doesn't intentionally decide not to have Scarlet exclusives, the Scarlet exclusives were simply behind schedule and they needed an excuse for their absence at launch.
MS make strange decisions regularly, but in this case I outright don't believe this was done by choice.
 

duckroll

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Oct 25, 2017
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Singapore
But that is why some of us disagree with this assessment. That MS doesn't intentionally decide not to have Scarlet exclusives, the Scarlet exclusives were simply behind schedule and they needed an excuse for their absence at launch.
MS make strange decisions regularly, but in this case I outright don't believe this was done by choice.
Okay, that's makes a lot of sense if we think this isn't an intentional choice. But if that's the case.... wouldn't delaying the hardware be the smarter choice? Do they have to launch to appear to have a product that can compete if it makes more sense to wait and have a stronger product?
 

VallenValiant

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Oct 27, 2017
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Okay, that's makes a lot of sense if we think this isn't an intentional choice. But if that's the case.... wouldn't delaying the hardware be the smarter choice? Do they have to launch to appear to have a product that can compete if it makes more sense to wait and have a stronger product?
Can they really delay? At this point the wheels are turning and money had already been spent. There might also be contract with third party studios who are already expecting a hardware release for their titles. If it is only one year away, I am not sure it is possible to push it later anymore.
 

Gemüsepizza

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Oct 26, 2017
1,445
I'm conflicted - on one hand, this could possibly lead to a 60 fps trend on next-gen consoles, which would be amazing.

On the other hand, this could have a negative impact on the (simulation etc.) complexity of next-gen games.

But then again I'm mostly fine with the complexity of modern games, and a few improvements will still be possible. And if this really means that there will be more 60 fps games, then I think they should do it (it's only for a limited time after all).
 

Crayon

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Oct 26, 2017
11,286
I'm with valient on this one. Delaying the console launch would be even worse than not having the games ready. Either way, its not great. They waited too long to start making games again. Its not a disaster, tho. They'll ride it out. Theyve actually done pretty well for years now with the very poor game output.
 

Viceratops

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Jun 29, 2018
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That doesn’t seem ideal. I’d rather see what their games can do without being held back by the previous generation of hardware.
 

riotous

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Oct 25, 2017
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But that is why some of us disagree with this assessment. That MS doesn't intentionally decide not to have Scarlet exclusives, the Scarlet exclusives were simply behind schedule and they needed an excuse for their absence at launch.
MS make strange decisions regularly, but in this case I outright don't believe this was done by choice.
Except they could choose for hardware marketing reasons to make any game exclusive to the new hardware. It’s always a choice.
 

kungfuian

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Jan 24, 2018
173
We know how this type of approach pans out on PC. 9 out of 10 times it means we get games targeting the most broad market/middle spec and the top end GPUs never really get pushed.

If you want to justify new hardware you have to have games that blow this gens games out of the water. Cross gens fine and all for maybe the first year but what we really want is that 'never been done before' eye melting 1st party next gen magic.
 

OneBadMutha

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Nov 2, 2017
4,926
The #1 aspect that holds games back these days is time and budget, not hardware. Publishers aren’t going to release games in 2020 or 2021 that had gigantic budgets and spent multiple years in development only to cut out the majority of gamers. Especially when game engines, tools, AI and similar architecture make games more scalable than ever.

Physics, texture detail, lighting, resolution and frame rate scale. You aren’t going to see games with AI so sophisticated that it maxes out the CPU in favor of lower hanging fruit like frame rate, physics and lighting anytime soon.

Destiny, MGS5, Forza Horizon 2, Tomb Raider and Titanfall 2 were the top of the heap in terms of next gen games for the first 2 years of this gen and they still got 360 ports despite more obstacles porting due to the game engines being less scalable, bigger age gap in hardware and hardware architecture difference.

I predict PlayStation will be the same. You may see games that are exclusive to that gen but you aren’t playing then in the first 2 years of next gen.
 

VallenValiant

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Oct 27, 2017
1,598
The #1 aspect that holds games back these days is time and budget, not hardware. Publishers aren’t going to release games in 2020 or 2021 that had gigantic budgets and spent multiple years in development only to cut out the majority of gamers. Especially when game engines, tools, AI and similar architecture make games more scalable than ever.

Physics, texture detail, lighting, resolution and frame rate scale. You aren’t going to see games with AI so sophisticated that it maxes out the CPU in favor of lower hanging fruit like frame rate, physics and lighting anytime soon.

Destiny, MGS5, Forza Horizon 2, Tomb Raider and Titanfall 2 were the top of the heap in terms of next gen games for the first 2 years of this gen and they still got 360 ports despite more obstacles porting due to the game engines being less scalable, bigger age gap in hardware and hardware architecture difference.

I predict PlayStation will be the same. You may see games that are exclusive to that gen but you aren’t playing then in the first 2 years of next gen.
You are talking about third party games. 1st party studio's priority is to sell consoles. If MS isnt going to have Scarlet exclusives in 2020 then they are going to start on the wrong foot.
 

OneBadMutha

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Nov 2, 2017
4,926
We know how this type of approach pans out on PC. 9 out of 10 times it means we get games targeting the most broad market/middle spec and the top end GPUs never really get pushed.

If you want to justify new hardware you have to have games that blow this gens games out of the water. Cross gens fine and all for maybe the first year but what we really want is that 'never been done before' eye melting 1st party next gen magic.
The most eye melting visual jump next gen will be from Ray Tracing.
 

OneBadMutha

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Nov 2, 2017
4,926
You are talking about third party games. 1st party studio's priority is to sell consoles. If MS isnt going to have Scarlet exclusives in 2020 then they are going to start on the wrong foot.
That’s wrong. Microsoft doesn’t care if you buy Game Pass on PC, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Lockhart, Anaconda or stream it. Consoles are subsidized in order to get the ecosystem into your living room. If the market was ok with playing on the S for the next 10 years, it would actually help Microsoft’s bottom line. Much of the market won’t be ok with that hence new consoles.
 
May 25, 2018
9,198
Since when? Releasing first was never how anyone win a console war.
I guess it would depend on if people want the next best hardware more than they want exclusive games. If they had exclusive games by the time the PS5 came out I think it would be okay. Idk.

As a PC "gamer" I don't buy new hardware for exclusive games. I buy them to get a better graphics and better FPS. Of course for console players this may not be the case since if people don't really experience what they're missing out on then they may not feel any incentive to upgrade. It's not black and white.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,502
2001
Seems kinda weird. I’d think they’d want one or two amazing exclusives to show off the new systems power.

Killzone shadowfall wasn’t great but it definitely got ppl talking once they saw the graphics.

So this probably means forza Motorsport 8 will be cross gen :( bummer. I was hoping for that to be exclusive to next gen.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
That’s wrong. Microsoft doesn’t care if you buy Game Pass on PC, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Lockhart, Anaconda or stream it. Consoles are subsidized in order to get the ecosystem into your living room. If the market was ok with playing on the S for the next 10 years, it would actually help Microsoft’s bottom line. Much of the market won’t be ok with that hence new consoles.
You are contradicting yourself.
You said that the market is not okay with 1S, and then say it doesn't matter if people don't buy Scarlet.
You are assuming people who don't buy Scarlet, would buy 1S. But how is that suppose to work unless you assume Sony doesn't exist?
If someone decide not to buy Scarlet, that is one more reason to not be in the MS ecosystem.

Make up your mind on if MS actually want to release a next gen console or not. Because right now you are suggesting MS should spend all this money making two SKUs, and then NOT try to make it attractive. Why do that? Why backstabbing themselves?
 
Nov 12, 2017
2,877
It isn't a matter of scaling.
It is a matter of minimum specs. PC gamers know about this already, but console gamers might have trouble comprehending it.
For every PC game, the studio had to decide where the cutoff potato hardware is for which they would no longer bother to support. The lower the minimum spec, the bigger the pool of computers they could theoretically sell the game to. But making that minimum too low, and game would look and play like a PS1 title. And adding more resolution wouldn't fix it.
In most cases, PC game studios only cater to the Recommended Spec, and the minimum spec would barely do anything more than load the game to the title screen. Still, HAVING a minimum spec, at least require that the game can load. And that in itself restricts what the game could do on higher spec machines.

The more "modern" the game is, the higher the minimum spec. Often with PC games, it is common for the sequel of a game to be nearly unplayable on a machine that run fine for its predecessor. Keeping the minimum spec unchanged, however, usually means the core of the game couldn't change.
they have fixed spec.
Is the same you realize it ? you will have crossgen gen games for a year or two and half then exclusives ...as always . In this two years the first.psrty will have to take care of two versions ..... enhancijg the higher version.....
 

Genio88

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Jun 4, 2018
545
Of course there won't be exclusives, all Microsoft games will also be available on PC and even with GamePass
 

OneBadMutha

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Nov 2, 2017
4,926
Seems kinda weird. I’d think they’d want one or two amazing exclusives to show off the new systems power.

Killzone shadowfall wasn’t great but it definitely got ppl talking once they saw the graphics.

So this probably means forza Motorsport 8 will be cross gen :( bummer. I was hoping for that to be exclusive to next gen.
Why do amazing games need to be exclusive? How many people who bought Switch for Zelda gave a fuck that there was a lesser version in the WiiU. Again there’s no benefit to Microsoft or Sony if you buy on next gen hardware opposed to this gen. Both companies may actually take losses on hardware sold in the first year.
 

flyingman

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Apr 16, 2019
1,678
Lmao people beliveing this. Do you guys honestly think they will release 499$ machines without exclusives while ps5 pumps out amazing shit
 

VallenValiant

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Oct 27, 2017
1,598
I guess it would depend on if people want the next best hardware more than they want exclusive games. If they had exclusive games by the time the PS5 came out I think it would be okay. Idk.

As a PC "gamer" I don't buy new hardware for exclusive games. I buy them to get a better graphics and better FPS. Of course for console players this may not be the case since if people don't really experience what they're missing out on then they may not feel any incentive to upgrade. It's not black and white.
You are ignoring the competition. If both companies offer upgraded game experiences, then the one that offer next gen exclusives have an edge.
Until yesterday, it would have been insanity to suggest MS would release Scarlet without exclusives to show off its capabilities. And yet 24 hours later, here we are. People genuinely claiming MS would do fine because Sony doesn't exist somehow. That MS has no competition and that customers wouldn't shop elsewhere.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Why do amazing games need to be exclusive? How many people who bought Switch for Zelda gave a fuck that there was a lesser version in the WiiU. Again there’s no benefit to Microsoft or Sony if you buy on next gen hardware opposed to this gen. Both companies may actually take losses on hardware sold in the first year.
It HAS to be, at the start of a gen. Because by definition all first party games are exclusive. And only 1st party games would avoid being cross gen in order to better sell the hardware. Third Party studios will eventually release amazing next gen games, but not early on. So you are asking the wrong question. 1st Party games just have the duty to serve the next gen console, that is what thry are for.
 

cgpartlow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
534
Seattle, WA
Everyone in this thread is being rediculous. All this means is late gen games being developed now will be able to be launched on the whole Xbox family. Just like with the X vs. the S, the anaconda versions will run better. Eventually new games won't work on old hardware. No one is being held back. It does mean indie devs can reach a larger userbase since if they have a game like Celeste that could run on a potato they could allow the game to be launched on current gen hardware. This will be especially useful for getting smaller game pass games to the largest market. I bet in the xbox store there will not be different versions of the games, just a compatibility list that says if it runs on your system or not, just like it says if it is X Enhanced or not now. I bet it will just be a flag that developers can select when putting their game on the digital storefront. We have this with phones right now...
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
4,926
You are contradicting yourself.
You said that the market is not okay with 1S, and then say it doesn't matter if people don't buy Scarlet.
You are assuming people who don't buy Scarlet, would buy 1S. But how is that suppose to work unless you assume Sony doesn't exist?
If someone decide not to buy Scarlet, that is one more reason to not be in the MS ecosystem.

Make up your mind on if MS actually want to release a next gen console or not. Because right now you are suggesting MS should spend all this money making two SKUs, and then NOT try to make it attractive. Why do that? Why backstabbing themselves?
Why does Sony existing have anything to do with a game being scaled to work on the S?

No contradictions. Microsoft is creating a lot of lanes to Game Pass. Enthusiasts will want the best hardware. A lot of gamers are happy with the graphics and performance they get current gen and would rather spend money on games, not hardware.

MAUs matter. Not next gen plastic sales by themselves. Next gen plastic is just one lane.

It HAS to be, at the start of a gen. Because by definition all first party games are exclusive. And only 1st party games would avoid being cross gen in order to better sell the hardware. Third Party studios will eventually release amazing next gen games, but not early on. So you are asking the wrong question. 1st Party games just have the duty to serve the next gen console, that is what thry are for.
Your business goals differ from Microsoft’s. If putting their shit on Steam doesn’t tell you they don’t give a fuck how you get into their ecosystem, don’t know what will.
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
Why does Sony existing have anything to do with a game being scaled to work on the S?

No contradictions. Microsoft is creating a lot of lanes to Game Pass. Enthusiasts will want the best hardware. A lot of gamers are happy with the graphics and performance they get current gen and would rather spend money on games, not hardware.

MAUs matter. Not next gen plastic sales by themselves. Next gen plastic is just one lane.
Good luck to you then. Because you are very optimistic if you think MS could afford to neglect their own next gen console launch. Trying to downplay Scarlet is certainly something new around here. I am impressed more than anything.
 
Oct 28, 2017
6,502
2001
Why do amazing games need to be exclusive? How many people who bought Switch for Zelda gave a fuck that there was a lesser version in the WiiU. Again there’s no benefit to Microsoft or Sony if you buy on next gen hardware opposed to this gen. Both companies may actually take losses on hardware sold in the first year.
Well I mean, once I saw forza Motorsport 5 running on Xbox one in 2013, I had to buy it. It looked incredible on next gen hardware. Now I potentially won’t get that same wow factor since it will be supposedly held back by the one.

Hopefully not much but we’ll see.