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With the announcement of Cadence of Hyrule, Can we talk about Zelda's playable appearances?
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But ironically; David Willis is the artist of the character in my avatar
It is ironic that there is a no-samus Metroid game, FedForce, and that otherM was effectively about Adam saving Samus (including by shooting her in the back for her own good).
Not sure that example holds up, in other words.
I don't know in what world Federation For is regarded as a mainline game when most people hate it. What I wrote is like " wanting to play another Character then Samus" and trust me that not what fans wanted even if it was possible Fed Force.
Players who play or buy a Metroid usually want and expect to play as Samus.
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Because Samus is like, the one character in Metroid that isn't a villain in Metroid. It'd be weird. Zelda being playable wouldn't, and is something people ask for significantly more often than anyone but Samus being playable. The fact that the demand exists, evidently, demonstrates the difference between this and the comparison being made.
Well, what would it hurt to have an option to play Zelda or Linkle, then?
By the way: Zelda was originally marketed as a game where a girl could be link. There's japanese commercials with that. So why is a choice there bad? Wouldn't that not affect players? Everyone can still play "normal" Link, and I can play the other choice. Link talks so little that all that'd be on the dev side is a different set of animations, voice clips, and a few dialogue strings here and there.
I mean, Nintendo wouldn'T even HAVE to remove all the "oh you so handsome" harem nonsense they throw at link, that can work for Linkle too, as far as I'm concerned :)
Getting Zelda as a playable character (in more games) or some role reversal storys? I'm all for it. Often enough, she's a well written character with potential of her own. I love the glimpse they offered in Hyrule Warriors.
Making Link's gender swappable, though? I don't know...seems we have this discussion every few years. Would it really matter to a lot of the regular Zelda players or just to a vocal minority? What is there to gain exactly (compared to a playable Zelda as a fully realized female character)?
People here say, there's nothing to lose, since Link's such a blank slate, but I beg to differ. Maybe for some, but he's a worldwide beloved character in a million-selling, long running franchise, who's become an icon of gaming himself. If you talk about Link, people have a very distinct image in mind. He's as much realized as Zelda as a character. Criticize the times those classic boy and girl characters were conceived in, yes, but the characters are the characters.
Yes, Nintendo has still room to grow their female and LGBTQ representation, but it's not like they're not moving at all and gender swapping an established character can't be a preferable lever to change things at Nintendo. I just don't get what would be gained from a female Link opposed to a playable Zelda, Linkletter whatever (Urbosa!! ^_^). People don't call for a female Mario (which could be described as an even blanker slate than Link, also always changing in different games and Iterations).
Just seems like changing an established character for changes sake.
Making Link's gender swappable, though? I don't know...seems we have this discussion every few years. Would it really matter to a lot of the regular Zelda players or just to a vocal minority? What is there to gain exactly (compared to a playable Zelda as a fully realized female character)?
People here say, there's nothing to lose, since Link's such a blank slate, but I beg to differ. Maybe for some, but he's a worldwide beloved character in a million-selling, long running franchise, who's become an icon of gaming himself. If you talk about Link, people have a very distinct image in mind. He's as much realized as Zelda as a character. Criticize the times those classic boy and girl characters were conceived in, yes, but the characters are the characters.
Yes, Nintendo has still room to grow their female and LGBTQ representation, but it's not like they're not moving at all and gender swapping an established character can't be a preferable lever to change things at Nintendo. I just don't get what would be gained from a female Link opposed to a playable Zelda, Linkletter whatever (Urbosa!! ^_^). People don't call for a female Mario (which could be described as an even blanker slate than Link, also always changing in different games and Iterations).
Just seems like changing an established character for changes sake.
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I have a couple posts in this thread - I'm not against playable Zelda even if that first post you quoted might look like it.
Playable Zelda is something I can support at the same time I won't label Link being playable as some mayor issue in the series or anything, because it's not for the majority ......
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But the internal logic of the game allows for it. Not only because of reincarnation, but also because it's established that anyone can be Link.
It is mind-blowing how stubbornly short-sighted it is to NOT include Zelda as a DLC character for a post-game mission and then just otherwise let you run around Hyrule as Zelda with her move-set... I mean in BOTW but frankly you could add that to any previous Zelda game, package 'em together, and charge whatever you want.
Do the right thing here, Nintendo. Take my money, slap me in the face, and make me say thank you.
I can definitely see versions of Zelda all having different means of combat, exploration, and methods she would use to solve puzzles different then Link.
Ocarina of Time Zelda using a blend of magic/transformation to Shiek for more agile and quick combat.
Pirate Zelda mastery of a rapier, super charging a bow with light, and so forth.
Breath of the Wild Zelda being more of a mechanic, but more like Link in terms of an adventurer.
Not to mention any new and unique ideas they could come up with her. To be honest, I don't understand why Link is needed in the story half the time besides holding the triforce of courage on occasion and or has the ability to pull the Master Sword that's linked (ha) to his reincarnation as the Hero.
But talking about playable characters, I still wish transformations make a return. My God I want to swim as a Zora like in Majoras Mask 64, Roll as a Goron, and maybe Nintendo would let me fly as a Rito or even become a freaking dragon because why not?
Ocarina of Time Zelda using a blend of magic/transformation to Shiek for more agile and quick combat.
Pirate Zelda mastery of a rapier, super charging a bow with light, and so forth.
Breath of the Wild Zelda being more of a mechanic, but more like Link in terms of an adventurer.
Not to mention any new and unique ideas they could come up with her. To be honest, I don't understand why Link is needed in the story half the time besides holding the triforce of courage on occasion and or has the ability to pull the Master Sword that's linked (ha) to his reincarnation as the Hero.
But talking about playable characters, I still wish transformations make a return. My God I want to swim as a Zora like in Majoras Mask 64, Roll as a Goron, and maybe Nintendo would let me fly as a Rito or even become a freaking dragon because why not?
Ah, my apologies in that case.
To be fair, we now had multiple Mario games with a playable Peach, so less need for that, kinda.
And yeah, I would personally prefer to have a playable Zelda over a playable Linkle, for kindasorta your reasons but that's me personally. Urbosa'd be really cool too ^^
I know of this point of view. But does it really? The fact, that in the 30 years of the franchise history the characters themselves don't change and the creators don't see it happening (opposed to say, Doctor Who), suggest that the internal logic might function otherwise than some are thinking.
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Fair enough, just wanted to make the comparison with an equally "blank" established character clear. And I'm sure we're getting lots more instances of playable Zelda soon enough ;)
And Zelda as a character IS preferable to a simply gender swapped Link. Cause, additionally to my points above, what kind of message would it send? To get a playable, strong female character, you just have to swap the strong, male lead instead of creating/using a distinct, female character that can stand on its own feet? I don't think, that would jive well with anyone :/
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The Wind Waker's Link is explicitly not a descendant or resurrection of Link, he's just a dumb islander kid.
If Zelda is going to stay in such a stereotypical gender role so often I wish they played up the relationship with Link and Zelda a little more than nothing. Skyward Sword may be the cuckiest version of their relationship yet.
I miss the cute dating sections in Awakening, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons.
I miss the cute dating sections in Awakening, Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons.
I mean, was it really explicitly excluded? Yes, at the beginning he's a islander following a tradition, but pulling out the master sword in Hyrule Castle, getting accepted by the triforce etc. You could still make the argument, that this particular island kid possesses the Hero Spirit.
Even if not, it still doesn't contradict what I said. Just because one Link wasn't part of the reincarnation cycle doesn't mean the cycle encompasses female Links.
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But the point is that the cycle doesn't have to include a female Link for a female Link to exist. If Toon Link is a Link, then Lady Link can be a Link.
Yeah but it doesn't have to include a cuckoo as a Link, for a cuckoo to exist as a hero. This is a circular non-argument, you see? It COULD, but nothing so far supports that. It's basically a moot point, that comes with its own problems I've mentioned before (change of established character even through reincarnations for changes sake, weaker representation of distinct female characters etc ).
Why put so much energy in this when there is a preferable and in part already executed solution with a playable Zelda or a distinct female character that is not just a new coat of paint on another established character?
I mean, it seems like they consider Link an actual character just as much as Zelda or Ganon, even though he's silent. But they also haven't ruled out a female protagonist, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what we get in the next big Zelda game after so many questions about it.
I'm also not against a female Link, I would still play that game, but I just feel there's so many more interesting ways they could include a female protagonist instead of changing an already established character. Playable Zelda, Impa, a brand new character, Queen of Hyrule since she's always dead, a Zora, Rito, Gerudo. Someone else help save Hyrule while Link is off doing something else. There are so many possibilities to try something new like they did with BotW.
I keep seeing brought up that a playable Zelda may be too difficult for Nintendo to do or too hard to justify narratively. Or that it could change the gameplay too much.
We just had BoTW. If Nintendo wants to change, they can and do. Making Zelda playable is not something that's beyond Nintendo's ability.
We just had BoTW. If Nintendo wants to change, they can and do. Making Zelda playable is not something that's beyond Nintendo's ability.
But as you said, Nintendo wanted change and BoTW happened and it was a huge hit, so I'm not sure they are still looking for change. More likely than not, this formula will now stick for a while, mixed with the older formula.
I'd be up for a playable Zelda (inverse Spirit Tracks where you have to save Link's soul?), but I'm not sure it's going to happen - I think Nintendo view "The Legend of Zelda" and Link-as-controllable-protagonist as one in the same and anything else would be classified as a spin-off.
I'm not sure if Zelda's characterisations in the games qualify as good representation. I mean, she is a damsel in distress trope but they have also done a lot to flesh our her character, motivations and agency. It would be cool to play as her with her light arrows and magic abilities in some kind of action-puzzler.
I'd also be up for a female incarnation of Link. The game-world and lore allow for it, Link is literally a reincarnation of a spirit - no reason why incarnations should be exclusively male. What I don't want is to be able to pick a gender. I want Nintendo to do it and commit to it. I like the feeling and imagery of seeing all the Links together in their different forms.
I'm not sure if Zelda's characterisations in the games qualify as good representation. I mean, she is a damsel in distress trope but they have also done a lot to flesh our her character, motivations and agency. It would be cool to play as her with her light arrows and magic abilities in some kind of action-puzzler.
I'd also be up for a female incarnation of Link. The game-world and lore allow for it, Link is literally a reincarnation of a spirit - no reason why incarnations should be exclusively male. What I don't want is to be able to pick a gender. I want Nintendo to do it and commit to it. I like the feeling and imagery of seeing all the Links together in their different forms.
Not me. Give Zelda her own game (a real one). It's the damn game title too.
Well, that most certainly not gonna happen. At least not in a main entry.
There was a fan concept for a technologically advanced Zelda game starting Zelda as the main character where she was like an Indiana Jones scientist adventurer. That shit was cool as hell.
A lot of people in this thread are pessimistic, but as the younger generation of Nintendo devs gain more and more influence internally, I think we'll get a Zelda game starring Zelda either for the next mainline entry or the one after.
A lot of people in this thread are pessimistic, but as the younger generation of Nintendo devs gain more and more influence internally, I think we'll get a Zelda game starring Zelda either for the next mainline entry or the one after.
I think playable Zelda is far more likely than genderswapped Link. It's just a matter of Nintendo deciding they want to do something different with the gameplay but stay within the Zelda series, which would make Zelda the best candidate if Link wasn't a good fit (like how Luigi got the starring role in Luigi's Mansion because it was mechanically different than a regular platformer).
Two men and one woman is considered balanced, but not two women and one man? Hmm.
I think it's inevitable we'll get a Zelda led game at some point in the not-too-distant future. They get asked about it constantly, they clearly have thought about it, she's gotten an increasingly big and less damsel-in-distress role since OOT, we got Linkle as further proof they're aware of the demand for a female lead, she's gotten increased play anytime Zelda gets a second rep in something, etc. We may have to wait for new blood to be in charge of the series but I think we'll get there. Maybe we'll get a co-op partners game first, but it's definitely something on their mind. Playable Zelda is to LOZ what playable Ridley is to Smash. We'll get her eventually.
Yeah, seems silly to me. I always thought the Triforce was made up of Wisdom, Power and Courage, which are only then represented by the characters of Zelda, Ganon and Link in that generation respectively. Really it's that wisdom is the knowledge gained by or given to the player, power is the antagonist, something you need to defeat, and courage is the player's will to continue.
I kinda look at them as mantles, like superhero identities, that are given to the characters to play out but aren't specifically tied to them throughout every generation. I can't see any reason why a game can't have Zelda representing courage in one generation, or a corrupted hero of time representing power as the antagonist, or a Ganon as a desert king representing wisdom who hasn't hatched an evil plot, or why any of them can't move around or be replaced for a game or two after thirty years. We've already seen Link as Linkle, and Ganon isn't always there as the antagonist representing power either.
The idea that any two of W/P/C beats the third, which is why Link and Zelda almost always win, is pleasantly simple and strong fairytale storytelling. I'd be far more interested in seeing them play around with exactly who has P/W/C out of the three characters, and what happens if, in a given generation, the avatars of them aren't the typical representations as male hero, female princess and male wizard respectively, then I am in them chaining themselves to decades of timelines and lore that only serves to suggest why things can't be done rather than why they can. Hyrule castle, Kakariko village, the Gerudo etc change every time on the basis of what makes a fun game, not so much on some locked-in rule of 'balance' that doesn't make sense when the imbalance of 2v1 is what carries the day for Hyrule's finest.
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What's really dumb is that Impa was originally supposed to be the owner of the Triforce of Power, not Ganon so it's like no, two women and a man is supposed to be balanced since that was the original idea.
Agreed. They really should just go for full character creation (sex, race, age, height, weight, hair, features, etc). They could've done it for BOTW really.
I'm not saying this to correct because this may be based off something I don't know, but how do you figure? Ganon has had the Triforce of Power since Zelda 1, and Impa was just an elderly exposition character. If you mean plotwise, Impa has only been an action character in Skyward Sword, where the Triforce was never split and only controlled by Link in its entirety, and Ocarina of Time, where the Triforce was never intended to split at all until Ganondorf touched it without the requisite balance of power, wisdom, and courage.
Was she? I haven't heard that before but it does make sense. Though I like the idea that Ganondorf "stole" and corrupted it and that it was never meant to be his. Impa makes so much sense. Also, trying to go for arbitrary gender "balance" when you have 3 of something is silly. That really is an awful excuse.
Strongly disagree. I know you can't please everyone but each iteration of Link is living, breathing character to me. I want them to continue in that tradition. It would be good if they expanded it so we can play as an older Link or a female Link - whoever the Triforce chooses to be it's champion. But nowadays Link is so far beyond a simple avatar, it would be a real shame to have a create-a-character.
I don't think that's the case at all. Link easily could changed sex, age, race or proportions in BOTW with little to no narrative impact. The only real sticking point might be the transphobic subplot but reworking that would've been for the best anyway.
I'd love to get a lady link some time, but I'd rather not have a gender slider or something similar. If we get a lady link, she should be the Link for that game.
For the most part, each game's Link is their own unique character, and I'd rather we keep with having a standard design for each game.
For the most part, each game's Link is their own unique character, and I'd rather we keep with having a standard design for each game.
Of course, it's probably true that across most (if not all) Zelda games, a customisable Link would have no impact on the narrative. It's just I see Link as a character in his own right and I like that his BotW iteration is consistent in Smash, for example. Or that the Hero of Time is consistent between each game. I guess it just depends where you fall on "Link as a player avatar vs. Link as a character" line.
I can no longer find it but I remember reading that Impa was supposed to be the original owner of the triforce of power in development of one of the earlier Zelda games.
Mario does a lot of things but is implied that all those Marios are the same person doing different things, just like Homer for example.
Link in the other side doesn't exist as one entity, each link is it own more or less. It is more of a concept that different people can embody than a single entity. In this case Link is way more similar to something link Doctor Who than Mario (and Doctor who still has a bit of continuity between its incarnations where as link does not) where each incarnation can be whatever, a different sex included.
I just wish we could actually get a Zelda game starring her. Even a spinoff, at this point--just something where she's the focus instead of one playable character of multiple. For being a powerful magic user, we don't get to see a lot of her in action as a whole.
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I mean, comparing a gender with a species is a little off, but whatever. They could do that, I guess, but no one is asking for it to happen so *shrugs*
The argument against my point requires that it cannot happen, not that it hasn't. Everything that has happened in Zelda at one point or another hasn't.
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A retro rumor. We store those with all the other ones. Let's just not bring up anything retro related.
I find the "female Link would unbalance the triforce" explanation especially stupid because in A Link to the Past, the ending says "The Master Sword sleeps again... forever!"... and that lasted as long as it took until they decided they wanted to make A Link Between Worlds. Not to mention how the GBA port of LTTP sneakily removed the Triforce describing Ganon as "totally destroyed".
It's clear that anything can happen in Zelda because the developers want it to, not because the lore requires consistency. I've the feeling that Aonuma thinks of Link as an inherently male person, just like how most people think of their gender as an inherent part of their consciousness.
It's clear that anything can happen in Zelda because the developers want it to, not because the lore requires consistency. I've the feeling that Aonuma thinks of Link as an inherently male person, just like how most people think of their gender as an inherent part of their consciousness.