No he gave Ganondorf a monocle it's totally original.
I should be down with this but seriously, fuck Aaron Diaz.
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With the announcement of Cadence of Hyrule, Can we talk about Zelda's playable appearances?
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No he gave Ganondorf a monocle it's totally original.
I should be down with this but seriously, fuck Aaron Diaz.
There is no good reason to not have either playable Zelda in a main game or a female Link.
Heck have both at the same time.
Heck have both at the same time.
I was fuzzy on the details until I started Googling for my post, forgive me for missing you putting it "on blast'.
I honestly don't know much about the artist, is he an asshole? I did some Googling, but so far all I've found is claims he insists Nintendo stole his ideas, some attacks by Gamergate (I'm sure the association/accreditation to Anita caused some people to hiss like Skeksis), and some accusations of hypocrisy about drawing adult "male gaze" artwork while claiming he was for female empowerment. If you could summarize or provide further details, I would very much appreciate it.
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I do know who he is, I'm just trolling. Why is he divisive?
Ahhhhhh! I love this and need it in my life! I always thought a good solution would be a role reversal like that, where Link was some kind of bumbling oaf of a prince (to allow for keeping him largely mute) with Zelda having to be the savvy, adept hero who saves the kingdom.
Not no, it's too hard. We can put people in space, grow brains in Petrie dishes and treat cancers that would have killed people 20 years ago, but somehow making a Zelda game where you play as Zelda is just too hard.
The simplest reason isn't always the best. You want the situation to be super-simple so you can paint in a broad stroke. Nintendo is a large company, and their IPs have been handled by a large number of devs over the years. I can't tell you, specifically, what drove the creation of characters in one game over another. Certainly, most of Nintendo's IPs have an obvious male lean in terms of cast representation, but what drove specific choices at any given time, I don't know. It's an interesting subject to research, but I'm not going to make a definitive statement on that level. Especially given the way that franchises have changed hands and even entire studios over time.
I'm sorry for the curt tone of my previous reply. I just think that entire concept is the most trite and unimaginative a playable Zelda scenario could be.
Eh, he has a certain fame around the Transformers fanbase that everything he thinks concerning the franchise is right and insults other people who think otherwise which apparently lead to a certain campaign of harassment from him just when he was starting to get famous years ago (which also makes him a bit of a hypocrite because now he apparently denounces that kind of acts).
link and zelda can and should be the same gender, whichever that may be. either way it'd upset Gamers so it's a net gain
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Actually, the simple situation is usually the best fore explaining something. The alternative is that many people have this problem - mainly guys - coincidentally. Which is highly unlikely.
Also, you bring up the fact that franchises change hands and studios, but what does that matter? The problem doesn't really get better or worse when that happens. That information suggests that our society instills a bias against women into its inhabitants. Why else would the problem persist even when different people handle the franchises?
Linkle is technically a creation of Koei Tecmo and a separate character from Link. She's not a female Link.
He can be a bit of an ass and come off as that aggravating brand of overreaching ally where he presumes to speak for, and over, the people he's trying to represent in his work.
Honestly though, he's a decent dude. He does the usual straight white webcomic writer thing where he loads his comic with cute queer girls and proudly waves them around, and all of this is so painfully written from the perspective of a complete outsider to who he's trying to represent, but through all of this I see a genuine effort to be as inclusive as can be, whereas your Jeph Jacques of the world are perfectly happy with "here is your lesbian; praise me!"
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*nods* In my experience David Willis is very well-meaning and willing to listen to criticisms. I also appreciate that he takes hard stances on transphobia in the comments section and making a show of it as well so people know it's not okay.
I feel like this is a problem that only a small minority of Zelda fans have, and it's really only because of the franchise's title lol.
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I mean, not really. People wanted Peach playable in another game for literally decades in a game called Mario Bros.
It's also odd to call it a small minority when it's an issue that Nintendo has made a point of addressing multiple times.
Probably should have used a better word than create but Nintendo did have to accept and approve of this new character in the Zelda universe, which leaves some room for interepretation. In a time where we have seen some pressure for a female Link I think that's Nintendo answer to it and as far as it will ever go, if at all.
Why does it matter? Nintendo has been making video games since the 1970s. They have a variety of franchises that have evolved and changed hands over the years. The people that made a game thirty years ago are not necessarily involved in the creation of a follow-up today. Eiji Aonuma was not involved in the creation of the Zelda franchise. He's since taken on the role of the lead producer, but he's also no longer sitting in the director's chair. And some years from now, he'll retire, and another producer at Nintendo will take up the role he had.
In the time that Aonuma has been in charge of Zelda, there have been a number of mainline Zelda games, remakes, and the occasional spin-off. Hyrule Warriors was made because Koei Tecmo pitched the idea and Aonuma, who had coincidentally been playing a different Musou game at home at the time, thought it was a good idea. And Koei Tecmo loaded the roster with so many playable female characters that it actually upset some of the pissbaby Zelda fans out there. If someone else had been in charge of Zelda at the time, it's entirely possible that this wouldn't have happened.
People sure are sleeping on Hyrule Warriors as a game where Zelda is playable.
As for the should Zelda be playable in a mainline game. My inherent reaction is yes and I would like to see a more 2 player co op design philosophy tried at least once.
Should link be a girl/gender swapped. Personally I don't think so. I think playable Zelda is a much better way to do positive representation within the series. I also think that Link is a defined character and his Heteronormative relationship with Zelda is nice.
Personally I think the Zelda series has a pretty good track record with writing Zelda as a positive force within that Herero framework.
I think that Nintendo definitely has a responsibility to do better with representation when it comes to LGBTQ issues, however other IP are definitely better suited to that. Splatoon instantly springs to mind
As for the should Zelda be playable in a mainline game. My inherent reaction is yes and I would like to see a more 2 player co op design philosophy tried at least once.
Should link be a girl/gender swapped. Personally I don't think so. I think playable Zelda is a much better way to do positive representation within the series. I also think that Link is a defined character and his Heteronormative relationship with Zelda is nice.
Personally I think the Zelda series has a pretty good track record with writing Zelda as a positive force within that Herero framework.
I think that Nintendo definitely has a responsibility to do better with representation when it comes to LGBTQ issues, however other IP are definitely better suited to that. Splatoon instantly springs to mind
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What do you mean why does it matter? It's a legitimate problem and it's slightly important to try and understand why the problem exists. You can't exactly solve the issue of underrepresentation if you have no idea why it happens.
No one is sleeping on HW, this thread is about Nintendo specifically.
I said "Why does it matter?" to restate your question of "What does it matter?" Not to dismiss your concern.
Link is such a blank slate that it wouldn't be wierd to pick the gender you want to play as at the beginning of the game imo. Then everybody would be happy.
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I asked that because changing hands doesn't seem to result in a fixing for the problem, suggesting either an active disinterest or a passive disinterest in women in the franchise. I lean heavily into the latter because the former seems too cartoony usually, or is usually reserved for a game like FFXV where the designers explained why they wanted to do four male protagonists.
Aaron Diaz was criticized as gently as possible for drawing amputee porn of the main character of Dresden Codak for his own indulgence while referring to it as "a celebration of the female form and taking agency over one's body" by Mary Cagle, so he proceeded to throw a gigantic shit fit because he, a self proclaimed feminist, was criticized by an actual woman for his constant T&A in his work, and then never owned up to it when Magnolia Porter also chimed in on how Dresden Codak being a Very Serious Feminist Comic constantly has the main character stripped half naked.
Aaron Diaz is basically your typical Male Feminist. He'll harpoon other dudes over their mistakes but the moment anyone has the gall to rebuke him he explodes and goes one step away from using gendered slurs.
Also he denigrated Will Eisner's legendary contributions to the medium of comics by referring to him as a "mediocre white man."
I never suggested that changing hands fixes a problem. It's just something that happens with long-running franchises naturally over time. Sometimes it leads to some overt or obvious shifts, and sometimes it doesn't. You mention Final Fantasy XV, but even the Final Fantasy franchise has gone through a number of creative leads over time, even from game to game, and the focus and direction of each main numbered title tends to shift dramatically from the one that came before it.
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I mean... I know that. I don't understand your point in response to my point that fictional worlds tend to be underpopulated with women. My point in response to that was to say that the consistent issue with representation despite a series changing hands strongly suggests that it's a problem people generally have with women.
I've always been waiting for Zelda to have her own game (not counting the CD-i game...). I always thought her magic powers and her potential to fight like a Sheikah would make for a pretty interesting game. Much more interesting than a female Link. I don't see Link as much of a blank slate/self insert as some people do, so a gender swap just seems unnecessary. Hopefully that's not the way Nintendo goes when they already have an important female character that can be expanded upon.
That could certainly be the case, but a suggestion is not a complete argument.
You brought up Ocarina of Time earlier for its lack of female representation, and when I mentioned it's an older game, you immediately jumped to Splatoon 2 instead of a more natural point of comparison in Breath of the Wild. Is Breath of the Wild any better or worse than Ocarina in your eyes?
What kind of question is that? Link can be many things.
I actually wrote up a premise about Link's inclusion if Zelda's the main character not too long ago:
A year ago, the legendary hero Link defeated the evil king Ganondorf/Ganon and brought peace to Hyrule. One year later. You are Princess Zelda. You have been inspired by Link's act of courage and have been training to be a warrior as Link's pupil. Your weapon is a rapier, though you are also skilled in sorcery, archery, and survival.
Cut to sometime later. A new evil approaches and either kills or kidnaps Link. Because of the bond between you and Link, the Master Sword accepts you as its new master through desperation. You now wield the Master Sword (or a legendary rapier), and you must now avenge or save Link as the new hero of Hyrule.
Cut to sometime later. A new evil approaches and either kills or kidnaps Link. Because of the bond between you and Link, the Master Sword accepts you as its new master through desperation. You now wield the Master Sword (or a legendary rapier), and you must now avenge or save Link as the new hero of Hyrule.
Wait are we seriously going with OoT being bad for representation? Why? To me it's among the standouts for positive representation (although it could be better, most things could)
OoT is certainly far better then BotW and in a slightly unrelated note Mario Odyssey both of which range from good ideas but poor execution (BotW) to WTF were they thinking (Mario)
Given the previous games in the series (3D world, Hyrule Warriors/WWHD) this was especially jarring
OoT is certainly far better then BotW and in a slightly unrelated note Mario Odyssey both of which range from good ideas but poor execution (BotW) to WTF were they thinking (Mario)
Given the previous games in the series (3D world, Hyrule Warriors/WWHD) this was especially jarring
Real talk, playable Zelda with spellcasting is half of the reason I'm so excited about this (with the other 50% being everything else, including the fact that I love both Zelda and Necrodancer).
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Breath of the Wild is a more complicated topic, given that it has so many characters, more than OoT ever did. It would be a question of where we draw the line - I could examine each NPC individually, but I haven't the time to do that. OTOH we can examine characters with some significance.
On the male side, we see
Link
Kass
Ganon
King of Hyrule
Daruk
Revali
Beedle
Bolson
Hestu
Great Deku Tree
Hudson
Robbie
Yunobo
Bludo
Master Kohga
Teba
Kaneli
Sidon
King Dorephan
Muzu
Kinton
Malanya
Zelda
Mipha
Urbosa
Impa
Paya
Hylia
Mija
Tera
Riju
Buliara
Kaysa
Purah
Cotera
An interesting detail I found is that, at least in the ones I could easily get the gender of the person in question, all of the stable operators are men.
Ocarina has good specific female characters, but it is woefully underpopulated. Aside from the Gerudo, races tend to be majority-male. No female Gorons, one female Zora, four female Kokiri.
A Zelda based spinoff would be awesome to see someday, but a mainline title needs to have Link playable for me personally.
Vocal minority.
And have they? Linkle was a Bamco thing, was she not? Otherwise I don't remember Nintendo really saying much other than "Link is a dude and that's that." I think if anything they feel the need to address it because someone in PR is telling them it's good to get ahead of stuff like this in this day and age.
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A more vocal minority are the people who are bothered by people who want this, TBH. When Link was first revealed, Aonuma suggested that Link might be female by being vague when asked, and that demonstrated just how many people were excited by the idea. Don't try to downplay it as a small group of people just because you don't care about what they want or are actively bothered by it.
I have no qualm about making Zelda playable, honestly speaking she should had been playable in Breath of the Wild, with Link being dead and non playable, as it would had made a lot of sense and unlike Link she can talk.
Just make her play differently from Link as there's no reason to why both can't exist.
Just make her play differently from Link as there's no reason to why both can't exist.
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I'd really like a playable Zelda in a mainline game. Just as the last scene in BotW played, I was like: Alright, now let me play Zelda and do some diplomatic stuff on her quest to rebuild Hyrule, well I didn't get that. I think there would be more than enough great ideas for a mainline game to incorporate Zelda as a playable character, hopefully the next game allows us to play her.
Fact of the matter is that the wielder if the Triforce of Power is always the same man
The Triforce of Wisdom always goes the Princess of Hyrule
And the Triforce of Courage is bound by no such rules. It can go to anyone. Link can be anyone.
If Nintendo wanted to say Link was always a boy they had the opportunity to do so in Skyward Sword and chose not to.
My personal desire for the future of the series is that Link remains a boy, Zelda a girl and the series shifts more to them as co-Leads with the mainline series rotating between the two, with occasional instances where both are in the same game either in a more quasi co-op campaign, ST like assistance and such.
I like that dynamic of a boy and girl working to defeat evil throughout the ages, it creates an interesting constant. Link has always been a distinct character for me since the first time I played LA on the GB, I never saw him as just a hollow shell or stand-in for me as many others do. And I don't really want that change, thought I certainly understand and accept why others feel differently. It's for very similar reasons that I very much want to see Zelda become a more prominent and equal participant as I've grown to really appreciate her as a character within the series want to see her elevated and expanded upon.
Maintaining certain characteristics and attributes for the characters, like gender, give the creators the opportunity to both set certain expectations from game to game while also challenging those expectations and stereotypes both of the characters themselves as well as who they represent in the larger scheme. It's that very expectation that I think is the reason why Zelda as a character resonates with a lot of people so much, her depiction as Sheik in OoT and Tetra in WW were really great additions to her character and surprised a lot people. And that should be done with both characters more often and for Zelda the next big step is to actually become the hero of the story in her own right.
I like that dynamic of a boy and girl working to defeat evil throughout the ages, it creates an interesting constant. Link has always been a distinct character for me since the first time I played LA on the GB, I never saw him as just a hollow shell or stand-in for me as many others do. And I don't really want that change, thought I certainly understand and accept why others feel differently. It's for very similar reasons that I very much want to see Zelda become a more prominent and equal participant as I've grown to really appreciate her as a character within the series want to see her elevated and expanded upon.
Maintaining certain characteristics and attributes for the characters, like gender, give the creators the opportunity to both set certain expectations from game to game while also challenging those expectations and stereotypes both of the characters themselves as well as who they represent in the larger scheme. It's that very expectation that I think is the reason why Zelda as a character resonates with a lot of people so much, her depiction as Sheik in OoT and Tetra in WW were really great additions to her character and surprised a lot people. And that should be done with both characters more often and for Zelda the next big step is to actually become the hero of the story in her own right.
My biggest disappointment with BotW is that we never get to see Zelda's journey.
"What could Zelda even do?" indeed.
She carries the Master Sword across a war-torn Hyrule, seemingly alone, before heading over to confront an unleashed Ganon - and we don't get to experience a single moment of it.
"What could Zelda even do?" indeed.
Yup
Have a mainline LoZ game starring Zelda exclusively with her using more magic (since the magic meter is no more) and have all the same kind of challenges but with more focus on tactics using the physics, chemistry, and potions systems from BotW (but more about creating stuff for different spells).
Then have a mainline LoZ with a female reincarnation of Link that's your straight-up Zelda game.
Followed by a game starring Linkle,and then have a spin-off (yet canonical) co-op game in the vein of Four Swords Adventures/Tri-Force Heroes where Zelda, female Link and Linkle team up.
Just to reiterate: there's no good reason to avoid any or all of the above
I literally thought the same when I saw that trailer. "Is it weird that I am really happy about it, when the series continuously fails on that level"?
I think this is a bad take. And we have a Zelda game that shows this:
Skyward Sword.
Skyward Sword should have been Zelda's game. It's literally one of the most puzzle (wisdom) based games, and canonically, Zelda does multiple of the dungeons on her own, doesn't she?
Wasn't Zelda courageous there? Yes she was. Link having the courage triangle doesn't stop this. But it was mainly about using Wisdom to get by.
Link sure is fine using Wisdom to solve puzzles, is he? So Zelda can be allowed to use some courage, too. The power triopolygons don't mean this is the only thing ever a character has to be about and that nobody ever can use that.
Take BOTW. Where's Zelda's wisdom there, really? Wouldn't the story(and game) have worked the same if it was *Link* trapping Ganon courageously in a 100 year long struggle while Zelda's the one outside, using her wisdom to find a solution to the big pig? I'd argue the game would have worked even better: Zelda doesn't have a Master Sword, so she has to stealth more, use improvised weapons when she can't avoid combat, and would have to learn to play smart to use the environment and physics wisely to - ah yes, that's just basic BOTW gameplay, and one can easily argue to have Link be in Zelda's position, fulfilling the courage position, while Zelda's outside, doing wisdomy business. Wouldn't change much at all, really. With how much magic (Statis, Cryonis) Link ends up doing in the game, I think it'd fit better.
I find that the triforce traits rarely do much for the characters. They don't inform them as much as people like to think. If you think Zelda wasn't extremely courageous in BOTW, I don't even know what to tell you!
I think this is a bad take. And we have a Zelda game that shows this:
Skyward Sword.
Skyward Sword should have been Zelda's game. It's literally one of the most puzzle (wisdom) based games, and canonically, Zelda does multiple of the dungeons on her own, doesn't she?
Wasn't Zelda courageous there? Yes she was. Link having the courage triangle doesn't stop this. But it was mainly about using Wisdom to get by.
Link sure is fine using Wisdom to solve puzzles, is he? So Zelda can be allowed to use some courage, too. The power triopolygons don't mean this is the only thing ever a character has to be about and that nobody ever can use that.
Take BOTW. Where's Zelda's wisdom there, really? Wouldn't the story(and game) have worked the same if it was *Link* trapping Ganon courageously in a 100 year long struggle while Zelda's the one outside, using her wisdom to find a solution to the big pig? I'd argue the game would have worked even better: Zelda doesn't have a Master Sword, so she has to stealth more, use improvised weapons when she can't avoid combat, and would have to learn to play smart to use the environment and physics wisely to - ah yes, that's just basic BOTW gameplay, and one can easily argue to have Link be in Zelda's position, fulfilling the courage position, while Zelda's outside, doing wisdomy business. Wouldn't change much at all, really. With how much magic (Statis, Cryonis) Link ends up doing in the game, I think it'd fit better.
I find that the triforce traits rarely do much for the characters. They don't inform them as much as people like to think. If you think Zelda wasn't extremely courageous in BOTW, I don't even know what to tell you!
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It's always strange when companies don't make decisions that would make a lot of people happy without having to take any compromises. From a story and gameplay perspective, nothing would have to change if they gave us a gender select for Link. Nothing at all.
Likewise, even just having Zelda playable for a short section of a Zelda game would make so many people happy already, yet it is done exactly once in a series that is named after her and by now spawns a great number of titles. The announcement of the new spin-off shows yet again how incredible the reception for a playable Zelda is once in the blue moon it occurs.
I can only imagine that the old, male Japanese businessmen and creatives responsible for the series are too set in their sexist ways to realize this. Aonuma especially always struck me as a very traditional individual... which in this context is no compliment whatsoever.
Likewise, even just having Zelda playable for a short section of a Zelda game would make so many people happy already, yet it is done exactly once in a series that is named after her and by now spawns a great number of titles. The announcement of the new spin-off shows yet again how incredible the reception for a playable Zelda is once in the blue moon it occurs.
I can only imagine that the old, male Japanese businessmen and creatives responsible for the series are too set in their sexist ways to realize this. Aonuma especially always struck me as a very traditional individual... which in this context is no compliment whatsoever.
Because Nintendo IPs are Jurassic and they are conservatives. The newer the IP, the better representation it gets because it was the norm when it was created.
It is funny that Metroid did had a game without Samus as a playable protagonist focused on the npc that helps her: the federation force