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Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
10,533
I wanted to talk today about something that has been bothering me for some time now about my favorite game of all time, Magic: the Gathering. The impetus for this complaint dates back some time now, and I'll be exploring it from the initial rise of the issue to modernity, where I feel it's simply become unrealistic for both Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro to simply continue ignoring it. At the very least, I feel players should be more aggressively asking questions and demanding change with regards to these issues. I believe Magic: the Gathering has been horribly mismanaged since 2015, and this has manifested itself in numerous ways.

The Age of Uncertainty

The popularity of Magic: the Gathering is said to always be on a gradual upswing by individuals in the know like Mark Rosewater, current head designer of the game. That being said, there are distinct points where the game clearly gets a sudden surge of energy that increases awareness, sales, and general interest. The last big boom was when Theros was released in late September of 2013. Theros was a Greek mythology inspired set that captured the imagination of players, despite whatever flaws we see in the set now, and brought in lapsed players and new players in supposedly great numbers.

Theros and it's two subsequent expansions, Born of the Gods and Journey into Nyx, where followed by Magic 2015 in the summer of 2014. Magic 2015, a Core Set, brought with it a minor change to the overall card frame of the game, but would also be the beginning of a great many changes to the game that, I feel, were to the game's detriment. The first was the announcement of the Clash Packs. Prior to this point, there was a product called Event Decks, released with each new expansion, that were essentially a rough skeleton for a Standard playable deck. Clash Packs, on the other hand, were a two-player product featuring Standard legal decks intended less for competitive play and more for play against one another. The announcement of the Clash Packs came with word that these products would alternate with Event Decks. Clash Packs would release in Summer and Winter, and Event Decks would release in Fall and Spring.

Fall of 2014 featured Khans of Tarkir, which I consider the final successful Magic "block" (a block is a cycle of sets connected by world and theme) before things went off the rails. Summer of 2015 featured Magic Origins, the final Core Set for a good while. With it also came the final Clash Pack. After three of them released and failed, the line was cancelled outright.

In Fall of 2015, Battle for Zendikar released, and brought with it the controversial Expedition cards. Expeditions were initially billed as a one time treat for fans that would appear in Battle for Zendikar and it's lone expansion, Oath of the Gatewatch, to call back to the original Zendikar block many years prior, which had "Hidden Treasures" in the form of incredibly old and valuable cards inserted into a small number of booster packs. While the Expeditions were widely considered a success in terms of popularity, there were already players suggesting these cards were essentially hurting the value of Standard prices, and some believed they existed simply to compensate for the incredibly underwhelming nature of both sets. Event decks, after having been hurt by Clash Packs, were discontinued after Battle for Zendikar.

Shadows Over Innistrad, released in Spring of 2016, saw a few new changes. With Core Sets gone, blocks would now go down from three expansions to two, and thus there would be two blocks per year. Battle for Zendikar was the first smaller block, but Shadows Over Innistrad, the first block to launch in the Spring, also included the first ever (and only) Gift Box not released in the Holiday / Fall season. Gift Boxes were an item which included a large storage box for your collection, an assortment of booster packs, and an alternate art promo card.

Fall of 2016. Kaladesh. Now things begin to unravel quickly. Wizards of the Coast introduces the Planeswalker Decks to replace Intro Packs. Planeswalkers are the main characters of Magic: the Gathering, powerful spellcasters with the unique ability to travel through the void between worlds to visit different planes of existence. Typically, they have been represented via powerful cards that can dominate the battlefield and quickly turn the tide of battle. Planeswalker Decks, however, would see brand new Planeswalker cards printed with beginners in mind. These cards were designed to be bad on purpose, so as to avoid having them see play in Standard or other formats, and the decks themselves were basically still glorified Intro Packs. The key difference, of course, is that there is now a core belief emerging from Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro that they should design clearly inferior products with less value / worth for beginners. Also, Kaladesh saw the return of Expeditions (now renamed Masterpieces) just one year after they were first unveiled for Battle for Zendikar. The new mission statement is that Masterpieces are here to stay, and will now feature in every single expansion moving forward. On a side note, just six months after going twice-a-year, Gift Boxes are discontinued, replaced with Gift Packs, which eliminate both the storage box and the alternate art promo in favor of packaging more reminiscent of Pokemon card game gift packs, but without the value.

Kaladesh ends up becoming the straw that breaks the camel's back, with Standard becoming a mess, and we see the first Standard bans in many years in 2017. Three cards are banned in January, one more is emergency banned in April,and another in June. A whopping four more are banned the following January, primarily due to how Kaladesh block warped Standard.

Spring 2017: Amonkhet. Egyptian-themed world and block. Masterpieces here are given a radical new look to resemble ancient hieroglyphs. The resulting cards featured smaller card art and are much harder to read than the average Magic card. The community essentially revolts over these new lottery cards. By Summer, Wizards of the Coast announces that Masterpieces will be discontinued, and won't appear in the following block.

Fall of 2017 features Ixalan block, which Wizards of the Coast announces will be the final block for the game, as they've decided to transition towards sets being wholly standalone.

Spring 2018, the end of our journey with regards to Standard. Dominaria is released to a lot of acclaim after the disappointments that were the two Ixalan sets. Despite being the first set with the new paradigm of single sets as opposed to blocks, Wizards announces both the return of Core Sets and a full three-set block to follow it. On top of this, this coincides with the cancellation of Duel Decks, a two-player casual product that had traditionally featured some powerful / valuable reprints and interesting themes. Duel Decks go out with a whimper with the lackluster Elves vs Inventors.

The Reprint Conundrum and Corporate Greed

While all of this is going on, Wizards is also mismanaging their supplemental products, which I touched upon just above with Duel Decks. The primary culprit? Masters sets.

Modern Masters was a set released in 2013. It was a compilation set comprised entirely of reprints with the express goal of getting much needed reprints of expensive cards out into players' hands. The price of entry was raised, with boosters costing $6.99, at the time roughly double the price of a Standard booster pack, and the number of boosters included in a box were decreased from a Standard set as well, down from 36 packs to the exact 24 needed for a draft. Each booster comes with a guaranteed foil card to add value.

Flash forward to 2015: Modern Masters 2015 is announced and released. We begin to see two notable changes here:

1.) The set features a greater number of whiffs at the rare slot, with Wizards hand-waving this away as the set being designed with Limited (drafts) in mind.

2.) The price of a Masters booster increases to $9.99 per pack, despite the reduced EV of the boxes from the previous Masters set.

Still, people are generally happy with the set, as it still had several much-needed reprints within.

2016 has Eternal Masters, which is made to provide reprints for Legacy, Vintage, and Commander, without violating the Reserve List. I'll have a follow up on the Reserve List at some point in this thread, but to boil it down for those unfamiliar with it, it's a promise Wizards made decades ago to not reprint a lengthy list of cards ever no matter what. Eternal Masters initially seems like a bit of a let-down, but it eventually ends up being a hit.

2017 features Modern Masters 2017, a slam dunk. Players love the set, the value within, and praise Wizards for their efforts to deliver a product that the market desperately needed. Wizards returns the favor in kind by announcing it will be the final Modern Masters set, and Masters sets moving forward will be more common and be "themed" as opposed to focusing solely on needed reprints for non-Standard formats. A second Masters set, Iconic Masters, is announced, with a December 2017 release date.

Iconic Masters releases, and despite some early hype, proves to be a flop. Box prices tank, as the decreased value within cannot sustain the $9.99 price point per pack that Wizards suggested. Wizards claims they've learned their lesson, and the next Masters set, Masters 25 (which they announce will release roughly four months later), will be a celebration of the 25th anniversary and the history of the game. To quote Gavin Verhey, senior designer at Wizards of the Coast:

Gavin Verhey said:
If you weren't happy with Iconic Masters, on behalf of the team, I would like to apologize. With everything we do in R&D, we're always learning from our experiences to make the next set as great as possible.

And I have some good news.

Masters 25 is the themed Masters set you've been waiting for.

... Masters 25 releases, proves to be an even bigger disappointment than Iconic Masters, and the box prices tank again.

Now, the final impetus for this thread: Ultimate Masters. Ultimate Masters was announced a short while ago, and is already releasing in just ten days. Billed as the final Masters set for the foreseeable future, it boasts a whole load of necessary reprints for Modern and Legacy and Commander, and seems like a fantastic set. The set also features the return of Masterpieces, this time as Box Toppers, with a random one included with each box. And how much is this costing you, the consumer?

Wizards of the Coast has raised the MSRP of a box of Ultimate Masters to $334.99, almost a full hundred dollars above the previous Masters sets.

TL;DR:

1.) Wizards of the Coast has spent the past three years or so mismanaging their product lines across the board, with a smattering of successes here and there, but a whole lot of failures that are quickly swept under the rug.

2.) Wizards of the Coast has gone back and forth with all sorts of changes and announcements to change up their release schedule, and cannot maintain any sense of consistency or stability in their schedule.

3.) New products aimed at beginners feature cards that Wizards designs to be outright bad and of poor value. There are no longer decks designed for competitive play of any real form.

4.) Packaging for boxed products has evolved to mimic Pokemon design, but with far less value than one typically sees in a Pokemon product, which typically features much needed reprints of highly sought after cards.

5.) The Masters line, designed with the aim of providing reprints to competitive players, has been run into the ground, with ludicrous price gouging efforts. Lottery cards, previously an experiment that looked promising but eventually failed, are now used to justify the current outrageous pricing model.

This is also only the tip of the iceberg. I'll likely further expand more on things in future posts in this thread, especially with regards to specific product releases, but I figure this is a good jumping off point for now.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,076
I don't think this is solely an issue for there, and I was hoping to attract perspectives from individuals outside of the Magic community.

Why? They wouldn't care or have the insight to be able to properly form an opinion. Hell I play magic here and there and my eyes are glazing over reading this.
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,906
here
i used to play during lunch break at school and some ruffians kept stealing my cards so i threw my milk at them and got detention
 
OP
OP
Metallix87

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
Why? They wouldn't care or have the insight to be able to properly form an opinion. Hell I play magic and my eyes are glazing over.
Quite frankly, I think a lot of players are highly invested in the game, and at least from my own experience, are essentially "all-in" with regards to the game. They'll complain a bit, but are still essentially going to line up to hand Wizards their money. I want to get people talking about this. An outside eye will help open the discussion up to other perspectives from those who aren't as attached to the game and the company.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,076
Quite frankly, I think a lot of players are highly invested in the game, and at least from my own experience, are essentially "all-in" with regards to the game. They'll complain a bit, but are still essentially going to line up to hand Wizards their money. I want to get people talking about this. An outside eye will help open the discussion up to other perspectives from those who aren't as attached to the game and the company.

So people in the community seem to be okay with it so you're looking for people outside of the game/community to get up in arms for you?
 
OP
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Metallix87

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
So people in the community seem to be okay with it so you're looking for outside of the game/community to get up in arms for you?
I'd like to have a discussion with people within and outside of the community. Whether they get up in arms or not is up to them. I laid out my case as to the situation, and I fail to see why this can't exist as a thread of it's own. We have threads for all sorts of things despite OTs existing.
 

Moist_Owlet

Banned
Dec 26, 2017
4,148
Their digital presence is largely mediocre. Magic online has needed a UI overhaul since at least 2008. Magic Arena is decent but support is slow as fuck. It was in closed beta forever and just entered open beta this fall. They haven't added single player AI battles or any cosmetics yet and still haven't figured out a solution of opening 5th copies of a card.
 

Cantaim

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,367
The Stussining
Ok I don't play magic but what the hell at point number 3? What is the point of trying to get beginners into your game if you intend to kneecap them with weak cards right off the bat?
 
OP
OP
Metallix87

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
Ok I don't play magic but what the hell at point number 3? What is the point of trying to get beginners into your game if you intend to kneecap them with weak cards right off the bat?
Their argument, legit, is that they want the new player decks to be of such low power level that more advanced players won't crave them for any competitive cards.
 

Angry Grimace

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,539
TL;DR:

1.) Wizards of the Coast has spent the past three years or so mismanaging their product lines across the board, with a smattering of successes here and there, but a whole lot of failures that are quickly swept under the rug.

2.) Wizards of the Coast has gone back and forth with all sorts of changes and announcements to change up their release schedule, and cannot maintain any sense of consistency or stability in their schedule.

3.) New products aimed at beginners feature cards that Wizards designs to be outright bad and of poor value. There are no longer decks designed for competitive play of any real form.

4.) Packaging for boxed products has evolved to mimic Pokemon design, but with far less value than one typically sees in a Pokemon product, which typically features much needed reprints of highly sought after cards.

5.) The Masters line, designed with the aim of providing reprints to competitive players, has been run into the ground, with ludicrous price gouging efforts. Lottery cards, previously an experiment that looked promising but eventually failed, are now used to justify the current outrageous pricing model.

This is also only the tip of the iceberg. I'll likely further expand more on things in future posts in this thread, especially with regards to specific product releases, but I figure this is a good jumping off point for now.

1. I don't know if that's true. The only real failures were Iconic Masters and Masters 25, both of which are discontinued and shelved.

2. The actual problem is that Standard sucked for every minute Kaladesh was in it, which isn't a marketing problem, but a design problem.

3. The Event Decks were always bad. They just put out Challenger Decks last year which are roughly 10 times better than any precon deck they've done basically ever which totally invalidates your complaint IMO.

4. ...packaging? I don't get that complaint.

5. They discontinued Masters, so I don't know what the complaint is at this point; we also don't know what the replacement reprint product even is at this point. You also don't actually need to play the formats that the reprint sets are aimed at; you kind of ask for it if you buy into Modern. Most people I know who play Modern have a serious gambling or spending problem and just want playsets of literally everything but then never do anything with those cards.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,408
This also helps to bring former players (like me) into the discussion who wouldn't enter the OT.

The reason I stopped playing was the constant investment required, and why I've switched to Key Forge.
 
thanks for posting this, it was a nice read.

I didn't know there was this much problems with the game, I knew that the last upswing in popularity was over but not that WotC was helping the down.

Also the duel decks seemed like a hit with board gamers, to bad they didn't knew how to handle them.
 

Yeef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,440
New York
Ok I don't play magic but what the hell at point number 3? What is the point of trying to get beginners into your game if you intend to kneecap them with weak cards right off the bat?
Eh; the planeswalker decks are fine value when compared to the old intro decks and buying booster packs. The issue with pre-constructed decks is that if you make them too good (i.e. valuable) enfranchised players just buy them up, leaving none for actual new players looking to get into the game.

There also are decks (Challenger Decks) that are designed to be competitive for standard and were mostly well-received. The thing is they've rotated out of standard at this point and we don't know when the next ones will be released.
 
OP
OP
Metallix87

Metallix87

User Requested Self-Ban
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Nov 1, 2017
10,533
1. I don't know if that's true. The only real failures were Iconic Masters and Masters 25, both of which are discontinued and shelved.

2. The actual problem is that Standard sucked for every minute Kaladesh was in it, which isn't a marketing problem, but a design problem.

3. The Event Decks were always bad. They just put out Challenger Decks last year which are roughly 10 times better than any precon deck they've done basically ever, so that complaint seems off.

4. ...packaging? I don't get that complaint.

5. They discontinued Masters, so I don't know what the complaint it at this point; we also don't know what the replacement reprint product even is at this point.
1.) Other failures I mentioned in the OP: Clash Packs, Masterpieces, smaller blocks. The Masters line, as a whole, ended up down this road.

2.) Standard has it's own issues, but you have to remember that it was designed to rotate much faster. For a brief period as a result of the changes, Wizards intended for Standard to rotate twice a year, remember?

3.) Event decks were bad, but they were at least a means of getting cards for Standard. Challenger Decks were seemingly a replacement, but were 1-and-dones. We have no word or even hints of any more down the pipeline, and currently there is nothing like them in Standard.

4.) They wanted to mimic the look of Pokemon products, but without the inherent value that that game loads their boxed products with.

5.) Masters are literally going out with an outright cash grab, so I feel it's worth complaining about, especially if this is bracing us for a pricier replacement.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,502
thanks for posting this, it was a nice read.

I didn't know there was this much problems with the game, I knew that the last upswing in popularity was over but not that WotC was helping the down.

Also the duel decks seemed like a hit with board gamers, to bad they didn't knew how to handle them.
Part of the issue with this thread is that not many Magic Era regulars agree with the premises the OP presents.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
I'm still annoyed there's no real Android support for the game. I'd drop Hearthstone in a heartbeat for a proper Magic game on my tablet.
 

Angry Grimace

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,539
I mean, if you're not a regular player, it's easy to see why some of these complaints are being made but I don't think they make sense. They stopped making Duel Decks because players didn't like them and didn't buy them: they're bad, unbalanced and don't contain any reprints anyone really cares about. It's far more in their interest to put more effort into the Commander decks which DO have more reprints and actually sell for a lot of money.
 
OP
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Metallix87

Metallix87

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Part of the issue with this thread is that not many Magic Era regulars agree with the premises the OP presents.
I'm glad you've chosen to speak for most of the Magic community on Era.
I mean, if you're not a regular player, it's easy to see why some of these complaints are being made but I don't think they make sense. They stopped making Duel Decks because players didn't like them and didn't buy them: they're bad, unbalanced and don't contain any reprints anyone really cares about. It's far more in their interest to put more effort into the Commander decks which DO have more reprints and actually sell for a lot of money.
To be fair, Duel Decks did previously have needed reprints and sold well, particularly the Planeswalker ones. The reduced value came later, alongside the elimination of Planeswalker duel decks. As far as Commander decks, we saw with this year's decks that they're drying up the value there, as well, just as they previously did with the Duel Decks.
 

Tapiozona

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
2,253
Why? They wouldn't care or have the insight to be able to properly form an opinion. Hell I play magic here and there and my eyes are glazing over reading this.

Exactly. I'm a non player and how could I possibly relate, understand, empathize, or argue for/against anything the OP said. It may as well of been a foreign language. I guess it made me curious enough to read, but mainly for how others who understood would respond.
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,081
Ok I don't play magic but what the hell at point number 3? What is the point of trying to get beginners into your game if you intend to kneecap them with weak cards right off the bat?
Part of the reason, as I understand it, is that before they had some supply issues when a precon deck contained the good cards. The deck containing a guaranteed Umezawa's Jitte was never in stock because the MSRP of the deck was less than the resale value of the Jitte.

Magic has always had trouble figuring out how to onboard new players, and they've tried boatloads of things. They had entire expansions (Portal) targeted at newbies, with fewer keywords, bolded text, icons indicating power/toughness, more reminder text, etc. They keep going back and forth over whether they're going to do core sets because core sets were intended to be kind of the newbie sets, but even newbies don't want to buy "the newbie set."
 

Angry Grimace

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,539
1.) Other failures I mentioned in the OP: Clash Packs, Masterpieces, smaller blocks. The Masters line, as a whole, ended up down this road.

2.) Standard has it's own issues, but you have to remember that it was designed to rotate much faster. For a brief period as a result of the changes, Wizards intended for Standard to rotate twice a year, remember?

3.) Event decks were bad, but they were at least a means of getting cards for Standard. Challenger Decks were seemingly a replacement, but were 1-and-dones. We have no word or even hints of any more down the pipeline, and currently there is nothing like them in Standard.

4.) They wanted to mimic the look of Pokemon products, but without the inherent value that that game loads their boxed products with.

5.) Masters are literally going out with an outright cash grab, so I feel it's worth complaining about, especially if this is bracing us for a pricier replacement.
I mean, okay, but you're just pointing out facts about the game that don't really lead to any particular conclusion. Clash Packs haven't been printed in literal years and Masterpieces were discontinued with Hour of Devastation, which has since rotated out of Standard. If you don't like Masters products, well they discontinued them. Challenger Decks are literally the only time they have ever printed a Standard product that was even sort of competitive so it's a weird complaint; they aren't printing them because based on last year they come out in late Winter.

None of the things you're pointing out seem like problems with the game that didn't previously exist and most of the ones you're upset about have been rolled back already.

The onroad to the game isn't cheap paper precons, it's Magic Arena.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,502
There also are decks (Challenger Decks) that are designed to be competitive for standard and were mostly well-received. The thing is they've rotated out of standard at this point and we don't know when the next ones will be released.
It's easy to forget, but they only came out April of this year. I imagine the next set will be released in the same time period.
 

Ashodin

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,603
Durham, NC
OP sounds like you're trying to bait people into getting angry with you.

I happen to believe opposite to what you believe, because Wizards needs to innovate to able to maintain interest and see what works for them.

As a company and a business they have to change up their product lines to keep interest alive, as well as discontinue product lines that are neither selling well or have zero interest.

Sure they've had problems with actual card balance, but that allowed them to create a very specific division of Wizards now that looks at card balance from a pro perspective.

Secondly, they're aware of their reprints not being enough, and are trying to create vehicles for them. Supplemental products like Battlebond (which did insanely well) have included much needed reprints and brought fun to the table.
 

Burly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,077
I stopped playing Magic like 6 -7 years ago but I still follow it, and I have to agree that a lot of their recent ideas seem half baked. For those who don't know, Wizards of the Coast works 2 years in advance, so whatever decisions they make today won't actually be out in the wild until Winter 2020. I mention this because a lot of their more recent ideas got changed within that 2 year window, where they wouldn't have even seen the actual results before they changed their mind. It seems like they are just throwing shit at the wall with no real foresight or plan with what they are doing.
 
OP
OP
Metallix87

Metallix87

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OP sounds like you're trying to bait people into getting angry with you.

I happen to believe opposite to what you believe, because Wizards needs to innovate to able to maintain interest and see what works them.

As a company and a business they have to change up their product lines to keep interest alive, as well as discontinue product lines that are neither selling well or have zero interest.

Sure they've had problems with actual card balance, but that allowed them to create a very specific division of Wizards now that looks at card balance from a pro perspective.

Secondly, they're aware of their reprints not being enough, and are trying to create vehicles for them. Supplemental products like Battlebond (which did insanely well) have included much needed reprints and brought fun to the table.
Sure, but this largely ignores the point: Why are they eliminating the primary vehicle for reprints, and why are they doing so after drastically increasing the price point of said vehicle?
I stopped playing Magic like 6 -7 years ago but I still follow it, and I have to agree that a lot of their recent ideas seem half baked. For those who don't know, Wizards of the Coast works 2 years in advance, so whatever decisions they make today won't actually be out in the wild until Winter 2020. I mention this because a lot of their more recent ideas got changed within that 2 year window, where they wouldn't have even seen the actual results before they changed their mind. It seems like they are just throwing shit at the wall with no real foresight or plan with what they are doing.
Exactly. The most obvious example of this, and in my eyes the key component for the mess that was Standard, was the sudden change in how rotation works, and then the relatively quick flip-back.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,420
The tabletop scene in general has gone kind of insane since 2013 and while I don't assume there's a ton of crossover with Magic, there certainly are a ton more tabletop games competing for people's attention and dollars. Not to mention Hearthstone.

I will also say that I think it's weird that Magic has the unique problem of trying to stay relevant as a commodity with monetary value and as a game.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,502
I stopped playing Magic like 6 -7 years ago but I still follow it, and I have to agree that a lot of their recent ideas seem half baked. For those who don't know, Wizards of the Coast works 2 years in advance, so whatever decisions they make today won't actually be out in the wild until Winter 2020. I mention this because a lot of their more recent ideas got changed within that 2 year window, where they wouldn't have even seen the actual results before they changed their mind. It seems like they are just throwing shit at the wall with no real foresight or plan with what they are doing.
They've mentioned they've sped up their product feedback and review process greatly, so for products that require little development time, like decks made from old cards, they can try something out and discontinue it much more quickly.
 

Yeef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,440
New York
There's a natural tension that comes between wanting to make a product that appeals to most players, but not wanting to make a product that people buy sole to resell. The latter doesn't really help the game in the big picture. Battlebond and Conspiracy show that they can slot reprints into supplemental sets in a way that doesn't disrupt them too much. Guild Kits and the Game Night set are aimed for at the Duel Deck crowd and the Guild Kits at least seem to be way more popular that Duel Decks were.

The issue with the gift box was that it didn't really offer much for enfranchised players and since it was being pushed as something non-Magic players can buy as a gift for the Magic players in their life, it ended up being a bad product, so they redesigned it. I say this as someone who actually liked getting the boxes since they're perfect for storing cubes. They changed it from a bulky box and promo that most people didn't want to no-box and a more playable promo, to unique promos.

A lot of your complaints seem to basically boil down to "Wizards is iterating and changing up their product line too frequently," but I'd argue that's much better than the alternative.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,502
Sure, but this largely ignores the point: Why are they eliminating the primary vehicle for reprints, and why are they doing so after drastically increasing the price point of said vehicle?
They eliminated Masters as a product because they determined it wasn't working as well as they liked. They will likely switch to more products like Battlebond, that have expensive reprints in a unique draft experience.

Ultimate Masters actually isn't that much more than previous Masters sets, if you get the mass market three-packs. The boxes are expensive due to the box topper.

The tabletop scene in general has gone kind of insane since 2013 and while I don't assume there's a ton of crossover with Magic, there certainly are a ton more tabletop games competing for people's attention and dollars. Not to mention Hearthstone.

I will also say that I think it's weird that Magic has the unique problem of trying to stay relevant as a commodity with monetary value and as a game.
Magic has actually been growing for a while, and I imagine Arena will help a ton with continued growth.
 

Poppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,273
richmond, va
yeah i never have bought in to competitive paper, i only get paper for fun and commander

if i had to buy staples i would be hurting
 
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Metallix87

Metallix87

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10,533
They eliminated Masters as a product because they determined it wasn't working as well as they liked. They will likely switch to more products like Battlebond, that have expensive reprints in a unique draft experience.

Ultimate Masters actually isn't that much more than previous Masters sets, if you get the mass market three-packs. The boxes are expensive due to the box topper.
No, this is simply false. They're expensive because Wizards wanted to raise the MSRP. The box toppers are their justification, unless you believe these box toppers cost Wizards about $95 a pop.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,502
No, this is simply false. They're expensive because Wizards wanted to raise the MSRP. The box toppers are their justification, unless you believe these box toppers cost Wizards about $95 a pop.
None of the cards are worth much to print. They're costed to match expected demand, and it does seem like there are plenty of people willing to pay it.

And it is the case that the expected value of a box is much greater than the MSRP largely due to the box toppers.
 
OP
OP
Metallix87

Metallix87

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Nov 1, 2017
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None of the cards are worth much to print. They're costed to match expected demand, and it does seem like there are plenty of people willing to pay it.

And it is the case that the expected value of a box is much greater than the MSRP largely due to the box toppers.
But this is essentially a nonsensical argument. The expected value is inflated because the set isn't out yet, but naturally we will see a sharp decline upon release. The box toppers are of radically varying degrees of value, and again a lot of that is front-loaded because the set isn't out in the wild yet.

They're costed as they are because they can get away with it. You're suggesting that Wizards is looking for ways to alleviate the issues with regards to reprints. I'm telling you, by raising the price point and ending this line of products, they are quite literally doing the opposite.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
Why? They wouldn't care or have the insight to be able to properly form an opinion. Hell I play magic here and there and my eyes are glazing over reading this.
Meh, I've never really played Magic (never had the money to really invest into it) but I have some interest in it (I've watched some competitions & Youtube matches), this kind of thread still brought an interesting topic/POV of Magic to my attention. Something it wouldn't have done if it had been buried in the Magic OT. Not everything needs to be kept in one place.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,109
Ah yes, mismanaging the game into record profits and player base growth. Truly the worst of situations to find themselves in.
 

Deleted member 16657

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Why? They wouldn't care or have the insight to be able to properly form an opinion. Hell I play magic here and there and my eyes are glazing over reading this.

I don't play magic at all and read the entire OP. I don't know why I just find magic interesting to read about. Thanks OP for posting.
 

SigmasonicX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,502
But this is essentially a nonsensical argument. The expected value is inflated because the set isn't out yet, but naturally we will see a sharp decline upon release. The box toppers are of radically varying degrees of value, and again a lot of that is front-loaded because the set isn't out in the wild yet.
The price of singles will greatly drop after release, yes. Which is one of the goals.

They're costed as they are because they can get away with it. You're suggesting that Wizards is looking for ways to alleviate the issues with regards to reprints. I'm telling you, by raising the price point and ending this line of products, they are quite literally doing the opposite.
They're ending the Masters products because they hadn't been working as well as they wanted. Wizards knows there's a demand for reprints, so they will replace these products with new ones. It's possible they won't work as well as the Masters sets, but we'll have to see.