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Ouren

Poppy Works & Wolfgame
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
90
Ouren did Nintendo response was simply NO? or did they give reason why the dev kit was denied??

can you make this reason public or are they covered under ToS??
Posting internal emails is not something I can do, however, I can tell you that it was a form reply email macro. There is no information in the email regarding why it was declined. It's frustrating because they use a nickname in there, so at least part of it was manually edited. It also gives me a link telling me how to sign up for the dev portal, even though I have had an email, login, upload account, and payment method set up for years, since we were both on Warioworld as well as the new dev portal. We did ship a Wii U game after all!
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,783
Posting internal emails is not something I can do, however, I can tell you that it was a form reply email macro. There is no information in the email regarding why it was declined. It's frustrating because they use a nickname in there, so at least part of it was manually edited. It also gives me a link telling me how to sign up for the dev portal, even though I have had an email, login, upload account, and payment method set up for years, since we were both on Warioworld as well as the new dev portal. We did ship a Wii U game after all!

Have you contacted Damon Baker? Seems relatively active on Twitter.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
No, I'm not saying it's not technically possible, because it is. I'm saying it won't work out because then the conversation and complaining will just switch to "Nintendo didn't think our game was worthy of being on the front/recommended/etc page!" and then we'll just be discussing that.

There is no perfect storefront. iOS and Steam do minimal curating and are borderline toxic for video games being released. Nintendo is controlling their Switch eShop and some publishers/developers are complaining because their games haven't been approved. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, but the implementation is working for the majority of indie developers as of now.
What evidence do you have the majority of indie developers think the current implementation is working for them? That's an interesting claim to make. Anyway, the idea that not being on the front page is basically as bad as not being available for purchase at all, therefore it's a lose-lose situation for devs doesn't really seem valid to me. That type of curation means if your game is successful, it will be prominent in those lists. And surely it's better to release a game and not be on the front page than not release the game at all.
Hmm odd to see developers using Twitter to communicate and throwing other games under the bus. Always felt business should be professional.
In what way are they throwing other games under the bus?
Its perfectly reasonable that Nintendo prefers devs who make new games for Switch or at least port successful games. "Unknown" developers or such who probably only make games that sell a few hundred are not the first too receive a dev kit, for obvious reasons.

The fact that a few bad game developers got a dev kit is no reason to open the flood gates for all.

At the moment legions of Indies want to get on the indie-games-selling-wonder Switch. And many of them have probably decent games. Devs who only recently ordered a dev kit will probably have to wait months, unless they have a big publisher, a very unique or already successful game.
Well, I don't know if you intended to quote that section you did, but the difficulties I mentioned came from the Oddworld dev as far as I recall, which definitely isn't an unknown indie dev. And the issue I referenced in that post wasn't necessarily acquiring the dev kit, but other challenges around releasing on the Wii U eShop.
That'd also be hard to do because Switch doesn't support Game Maker natively.
Right, although that's beside the point. I was just using it as an example of the type of game they've ported lately since they didn't list the titles they submitted for Switch.
 

Turtleboats

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,797
Hmm odd to see developers using Twitter to communicate and throwing other games under the bus. Always felt business should be professional.
I am not advocating throwing other games under the bus, but I am curious in what avenues you would take if you were this dev or in a similar situation. I am interested in hearing on how an indie dev could get the attention of NoA when they already declined their requests at a dev kit.

You and I, we can sit here comfortably on the sidelines whether or not this guy's or any indie devs games gets released. But for them, as this dev mentions, it's their livelihood. Once again, I am not condoning throwing other games under the bus, but I can fully sympathize that this is an incredibly frustrating and stressful situation to be in for sure.
 

Rmagnus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,923
What evidence do you have the majority of indie developers think the current implementation is working for them? That's an interesting claim to make. Anyway, the idea that not being on the front page is basically as bad as not being available for purchase at all, therefore it's a lose-lose situation for devs doesn't really seem valid to me. That type of curation means if your game is successful, it will be prominent in those lists. And surely it's better to release a game and not be on the front page than not release the game at all.

In what way are they throwing other games under the bus?

Well, I don't know if you intended to quote that section you did, but the difficulties I mentioned came from the Oddworld dev as far as I recall, which definitely isn't an unknown indie dev. And the issue I referenced in that post wasn't necessarily acquiring the dev kit, but other challenges around releasing on the Wii U eShop.

Right, although that's beside the point. I was just using it as an example of the type of game they've ported lately since they didn't list the titles they submitted for Switch.

What has stardew valley gotta do with anything that's going on?
 

Rmagnus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,923
I am not advocating throwing other games under the bus, but I am curious in what avenues you would take if you were this dev or in a similar situation. I am interested in hearing on how an indie dev could get the attention of NoA when they already declined their requests at a dev kit.

You and I, we can sit here comfortably on the sidelines whether or not this guy's or any indie devs games gets released. But for them, as this dev mentions, it's their livelihood. Once again, I am not condoning throwing other games under the bus, but I can fully sympathize that this is an incredibly frustrating and stressful situation to be in for sure.

One thing is for sure I will not be going through all this via twitter as it gives off an extremely unprofessional vibe.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
What has stardew valley gotta do with anything that's going on?
They're just saying that if the same game hadn't become as successful on other platforms they probably wouldn't have been able to get a dev kit based on these devs experiences. It's really not a dig at all, they specifically mentioned how great Stardew is.
 

Rmagnus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,923
They're just saying that if the same game hadn't become as successful on other platforms they probably wouldn't have been able to get a dev kit based on these devs experiences. It's really not a dig at all, they specifically mentioned how great Stardew is.

I do not think games like volgarr and slain is hugely successful and again i do not think it's a good look to name another game in your complain rant on twitter. Hey your game is only on switch because it's successful first than go on to mention it's a good game as well.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,783
What evidence do you have the majority of indie developers think the current implementation is working for them? That's an interesting claim to make. Anyway, the idea that not being on the front page is basically as bad as not being available for purchase at all, therefore it's a lose-lose situation for devs doesn't really seem valid to me. That type of curation means if your game is successful, it will be prominent in those lists. And surely it's better to release a game and not be on the front page than not release the game at all.

The fact that there are numerous success stories about Game X having the best selling version being the Switch version, or have you not seen those threads?
 

Turtleboats

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,797
It's baffling a few people in this thread think the devs are dissing stardew valley.
Same, I felt like they were giving a slight praise to Stardew if anything. The dev has valid legitimate points that I think are very fair statements, especially about the one where the eshop has mobile game/shovelware like games.

edit: Granted if everything the dev is saying is true and there isn't more to the story like bad blood between NOA and him, I find it mistifying NoA would be so selective considering the many underwhelming titles on the eshop.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,359
I wonder if Cosmic Star heroine guys were able to get a devkit

No, we have not. I've been emailing Nintendo off and on for over a year now and though I occasionally get a response (always along the lines of "Cosmic Star Heroine looks good but it's not a priority; maybe later"), no real progress has been made there as far as getting Cosmic Star Heroine approved or a devkit acquired. Latest email was about a week ago and they never responded. It's gotten to the point where if Sony offered me a halfway decent offer to make our next game PS4-exclusive instead of doing multiplatform on PS4/Switch, I'd take it - I'm just tired of the runaround from Nintendo. Like seriously, if it's this hard to just get approved, how hard is it going to be to get Nintendo support if we run into issues during porting? If there's one thing I can say about releasing CSH on PS4, it's that our Sony contact (Shane Bettenhausen) was always on top of things & responded very quickly whenever there was an issue we needed help with.
 
OP
OP
BRSxIgnition

BRSxIgnition

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,596
I'm glad that this thread has managed to mostly move on from all the hurtful & pointless "Who?" and "Lol they're too small/not worth enough, etc" posts and on to actual discussion of the issue at hand.

Hopefully Nintendo of America steps up their game and lets more developers/publishers into their eShop, or 'Nindies' will forever be a walled garden of obscure choices & lackluster shovelware ports. (With a few exceptions.)
 

Turtleboats

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,797
No, we have not. I've been emailing Nintendo off and on for over a year now and though I occasionally get a response (always along the lines of "Cosmic Star Heroine looks good but it's not a priority; maybe later"), no real progress has been made there as far as getting Cosmic Star Heroine approved or a devkit acquired.
NoA declined Cosmic Star Heroine? This is the first I am hearing about this problem, but that is amazing. Amazing in the sense that Nintendo would just brush away such a quality and polished RPG away from releasing on their platform. What is the possible logic behind this from NoA?

Edit: Interested in any insight as a dev, what you think could be possibly be the reasoning if any?
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,783
No, we have not. I've been emailing Nintendo off and on for over a year now and though I occasionally get a response (always along the lines of "Cosmic Star Heroine looks good but it's not a priority; maybe later"), no real progress has been made there as far as getting Cosmic Star Heroine approved or a devkit acquired. Latest email was about a week ago and they never responded. It's gotten to the point where if Sony offered me a halfway decent offer to make our next game PS4-exclusive instead of doing multiplatform on PS4/Switch, I'd take it - I'm just tired of the runaround from Nintendo. Like seriously, if it's this hard to just get approved, how hard is it going to be to get Nintendo support if we run into issues during porting? If there's one thing I can say about releasing CSH on PS4, it's that our Sony contact (Shane Bettenhausen) was always on top of things & responded very quickly whenever there was an issue we needed help with.

Do you think not releasing CSH on Wii U is impacting their response to you?
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
The fact that there are numerous success stories about Game X having the best selling version being the Switch version, or have you not seen those threads?
So what? Some people having success stories doesn't provide evidence that the majority of devs think the current system is working for them, which is what you said. Take all those success stories together and it's still a small minority of the devs that have released games on Switch.
I do not think games like volgarr and slain is hugely successful and again i do not think it's a good look to name another game in your complain rant on twitter. Hey your game is only on switch because it's successful first than go on to mention it's a good game as well.
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Not familiar with Slain, but Volgarr is a very successful indie title. Again, they aren't attacking or throwing Stardew under the bus in any way, they're simply using it as an example of a popular indie game that is great and people love. There's really no reason to look for a conflict that isn't there.
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
3,099
NoA still seems to think we're in 1996.

Even NoE and NCL seem to be more open. Not to mention competitor platforms.

I think Nintendo has done a good job with indies overall but they could certainly do more.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,783
So what? Some people having success stories doesn't provide evidence that the majority of devs think the current system is working for them, which is what you said. Take all those success stories together and it's still a small minority of the devs that have released games on Switch.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Not familiar with Slain, but Volgarr is a very successful indie title. Again, they aren't attacking or throwing Stardew under the bus in any way, they're simply using it as an example of a popular indie game that is great and people love. There's really no reason to look for a conflict that isn't there.

So let me get this straight: Just because some devs are having success doesn't mean anything, but because some devs are having a hard time getting dev kits means NOA is incompetent/trash?
 
OP
OP
BRSxIgnition

BRSxIgnition

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,596
So let me get this straight: Just because some devs are having success doesn't mean anything, but because some devs are having a hard time getting dev kits means NOA is incompetent/trash?

The thing is, those exact same devs have never had issues on competing platforms.

When you can release a game fine on one storefront, but another gives you the runaround without any explanation, which do you think is the issue? The storefront, or the dev?
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,359
Do you think not releasing CSH on Wii U is impacting their response to you?

One of their responses actually said something along the lines of "3DS and Wii U development is open to all developers." 3DS just isn't powerful enough for CSH without a complete overhaul of the game's innards & why on earth would we want to port a game to the Wii U AFTER the Switch has come out? Not even Nintendo was supporting the system with new releases at that point.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
NoA still seems to think we're in 1996.

Even NoE and NCL seem to be more open. Not to mention competitor platforms.

I think Nintendo has done a good job with indies overall but they could certainly do more.
That's definitely the main takeaway here. It's clear their strategy has improved a lot from the Wii U days and it's entirely possible Switch will be the primary platform for indie sales on console at some point soon, the portable proposition is really compelling for something like Stardew (not to throw them under the bus! ;) ). They just need to actually make it possible for more of those games to be released.
 

Bulbul

Member
Nov 20, 2017
817
How did Golf Story get approved? By the replies on this topic it seems like GS should not have been able to even get a Dev kit.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,009
The story of the dev in the OP is not the first dev I've heard who has not received approval to release for Switch and is unsure of why.



We're not approved for Switch. Not even sure I'm at liberty to say the reason(s).

I hope we can work something out after our current game is released on already-promised and already-approved platforms (ie PS Vita, Mac/Linux [Steam], and Xbox One).

No, we have not. I've been emailing Nintendo off and on for over a year now and though I occasionally get a response (always along the lines of "Cosmic Star Heroine looks good but it's not a priority; maybe later"), no real progress has been made there as far as getting Cosmic Star Heroine approved or a devkit acquired. Latest email was about a week ago and they never responded. It's gotten to the point where if Sony offered me a halfway decent offer to make our next game PS4-exclusive instead of doing multiplatform on PS4/Switch, I'd take it - I'm just tired of the runaround from Nintendo. Like seriously, if it's this hard to just get approved, how hard is it going to be to get Nintendo support if we run into issues during porting? If there's one thing I can say about releasing CSH on PS4, it's that our Sony contact (Shane Bettenhausen) was always on top of things & responded very quickly whenever there was an issue we needed help with.

Yeesh, what a joke.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
So let me get this straight: Just because some devs are having success doesn't mean anything, but because some devs are having a hard time getting dev kits means NOA is incompetent/trash?
Listen, I'm just not going to respond to you if you keep putting words in my mouth. I never said any of that. When did I ever refer to NOA as incompetent trash? When did I ever say those success stories mean nothing? I simply said that a few success stories do not demonstrate that a majority think the approach is working for them, because that's a big claim that requires some actual backup beyond some anecdotes here and there.
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
3,099
The thing is, those exact same devs have never had issues on competing platforms.

When you can release a game fine on one storefront, but another gives you the runaround without any explanation, which do you think is the issue? The storefront, or the dev?

This is a good summary of the point of this thread.
 

Turtleboats

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,797
How did Golf Story get approved? By the replies on this topic it seems like GS should not have been able to even get a Dev kit.
Just throwing this out there and all speculation...

Games like Golf Story were created for the Switch in mind as an exclusive. Whether it's timed or console exclusive...who knows, but I feel like NoA would be more receptive to indie devs if they were creating an experience you could only get on the Switch or Nintendo platform?

One of the stipulations of porting over a game (correct me if I am wrong) has to have some new gameplay mechanic exclusive to the switch if it's been released on other platforms, so perhaps this might be playing a factor as well?
 

Deleted member 59

Guest
How did Golf Story get approved? By the replies on this topic it seems like GS should not have been able to even get a Dev kit.

A) it started as a wii u game and Nintendo liked what they saw

B) They didn't have to deal with NoA, who seemingly are the issue here.
 

Instro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,009
How did Golf Story get approved? By the replies on this topic it seems like GS should not have been able to even get a Dev kit.

It's an exclusive that was previously in development on the WiiU. So existing relationship, unique quality game promised as platform exclusive. Which lines up well with what we've heard about how Nintendo is handling the eshop and indies right now.
 

MagnesG

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
784
Maybe NoA need more enticement for approval? Some extra content rather? Or maybe because of genre curation? Or style? For whatever it is, they're likely would not state the real reason other than their 'priority', it was really a business deal end through.

Still, there's a possiblity that calling them out openly will just turn the situation into worse.
 

Deleted member 59

Guest
The thing is, those exact same devs have never had issues on competing platforms.

When you can release a game fine on one storefront, but another gives you the runaround without any explanation, which do you think is the issue? The storefront, or the dev?

Yup, this is the issue in a nutshell. NoA are potentially going to, or have already been burning bridges with their actions.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,783
NoA still seems to think we're in 1996.

Even NoE and NCL seem to be more open. Not to mention competitor platforms.

I think Nintendo has done a good job with indies overall but they could certainly do more.

I'm not saying they can't do better, but Nintendo seems to be the most supportive of indies in their own way. They consistently put nindie directs out that highlight popular games that were going to be ported like Stardew Valley and Rocket League and ones that are coming out like Golf Story and Steamworld Dig 2.

Pretty sure Bertil on the old forum said that Gunman Clive being shown on a Nintendo Direct back in the day was the reason the game was ever successful.

The thing is, those exact same devs have never had issues on competing platforms.

When you can release a game fine on one storefront, but another gives you the runaround without any explanation, which do you think is the issue? The storefront, or the dev?

You're really going to make the claim that no indie has ever had an issue releasing their game on Xbox with their old parity clause crap?

One of their responses actually said something along the lines of "3DS and Wii U development is open to all developers." 3DS just isn't powerful enough for CSH without a complete overhaul of the game's innards & why on earth would we want to port a game to the Wii U AFTER the Switch has come out? Not even Nintendo was supporting the system with new releases at that point.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint for you to have ignored the Wii U, I was merely curious.
 

Deleted member 59

Guest
Nicalis seem really open to helping indie Devs get their games on switch. If you can't get a Dev kit yourself, it looks like one of the only options is going to publishers who are already working on switch. iirc that's how Axiom Verge managed to get on switch (i forget the name of the publisher) which is a ridiculous hoop to jump through really considering the games quality
 

Marukoban

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,298
Just throwing this out there and all speculation...

Games like Golf Story were created for the Switch in mind as an exclusive. Whether it's timed or console exclusive...who knows, but I feel like NoA would be more receptive to indie devs if they were creating an experience you could only get on the Switch or Nintendo platform?

One of the stipulations of porting over a game (correct me if I am wrong) has to have some new gameplay mechanic exclusive to the switch if it's been released on other platforms, so perhaps this might be playing a factor as well?

I think that's probably the main reason.
At this point they are concerned with building base for Switch, so priority will be given to exclusive or port of popular game.
Niche of niche for indie are likely pushed down in priority.
Is there any developer proposing exclusive new game and got rejected by NoA?
 

ZhugeEX

Senior Analyst at Niko Partners
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
3,099
You're really going to make the claim that no indie has ever had an issue releasing their game on Xbox with their old parity clause crap?

You really have to stop with the 'whataboutism' and putting words in peoples mouth.

No one is saying every other platform is perfect. No one is saying Nintendo is terrible.
This thread is to discuss a valid issue that has been explained by multiple people multiple times.
If you're not going to discuss this issue then you don't have to post in this thread.