• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
I'm not going to go google hunting, but I am fairly sure blizzard admitted that there were at least early plans for a Zul"drak raid when they were designing WOTLK.

I'm pretty sure this was also the case. I don't really remember where it came from but I do know it was something that I feel was mentioned as coming while WOTLK was in development and current.

Unrelated, but as usual, I'm so close to the minimum ilvl I need to hit up a raid and my weapons are holding me back. They won't drop and this new character only has 20K to his name so I can't invest in any mats or BOEs on the auction house. It's so frustrating. Even more so when my friends can see weapon WQs up but for me they reward bracers or rings or something. I hate that RNG system so much.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
Unrelated, but as usual, I'm so close to the minimum ilvl I need to hit up a raid and my weapons are holding me back. They won't drop and this new character only has 20K to his name so I can't invest in any mats or BOEs on the auction house. It's so frustrating. Even more so when my friends can see weapon WQs up but for me they reward bracers or rings or something. I hate that RNG system so much.
I mean pretty much every MMORPG in existence has randomized loot drops from bosses/dungeons (you can think of WQs as the same thing)

that's just how MMOs are, it's not specific to WoW
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
I mean pretty much every MMORPG in existence has randomized loot drops from bosses/dungeons (you can think of WQs as the same thing)

that's just how MMOs are, it's not specific to WoW

I know how MMOs work. I'm talking about RNG being shit for me when others get the things I need one their world quests and I don't. More specifically, I think WQs should offer the same reward to each player unless it is offering one of the Azerite chests.
 

Bhonar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,066
I know how MMOs work. I'm talking about RNG being shit for me when others get the things I need one their world quests and I don't
ok then I'm not going to talk about that

anytime someone claims they always have bad luck in a game or something in life compared to other people, I know they're not thinking logically. I don't believe in always bad luck or always good luck over a long period of time and large sample size
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
ok then I'm not going to talk about that

anytime someone claims they always have bad luck in a game or something in life compared to other people, I know they're not thinking logically. I don't believe in always bad luck or always good luck over a long period of time and large sample size

I'm not really concerned if you agree or disagree with my assessment or if you think I'm "illogical" for pointing out that I consistently have issues getting weapons for the characters I play. I'm not sure how it affects you at all, honestly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,524
I expected to get nothing from a +5 run I was doing the other day, just running it for fun after all. But I got a 425 piece with a gemslot and a tertiary stat (speed). Perfect M+ stats for my sin spec. That was pretty dope.

RNG can have it's highs and lows. I don't find this game's RNG to be bad. I didn't feel bad not getting a 390-395 weapon last season, or even a single 395 piece. What sucked last season was the azerite situation. It's not just the whole vendor thing that has changed the situation, but also more options from raid and PVP as well. The new ring approach has also really alleviated the need to find very specific traits to make your build work.
 

monketron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,839
I expected to get nothing from a +5 run I was doing the other day, just running it for fun after all. But I got a 425 piece with a gemslot and a tertiary stat (speed). Perfect M+ stats for my sin spec. That was pretty dope.

RNG can have it's highs and lows. I don't find this game's RNG to be bad. I didn't feel bad not getting a 390-395 weapon last season, or even a single 395 piece. What sucked last season was the azerite situation. It's not just the whole vendor thing that has changed the situation, but also more options from raid and PVP as well. The new ring approach has also really alleviated the need to find very specific traits to make your build work.

RNG is great and can add to the experience (who hasn't felt the rush of getting something you've wanted for so long). But having a really high crappy RNG loot-system is OK if they throw loot at you like Diablo does, or you'd be finished too quick, but when meaningful upgrades are so rare in WoW, especially if you don't raid, then having so much random bullshit drop really isn't good enough.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Metrics is a nice tool, but it shouldn't be the sole input for decisions for a multi-billion-dollar MMO.

Correct. It's a known fact that you can make statistics say almost anything if there isn't extra context or you're reading them wrong.

And Blizz lately has been doing a shit job at reading the community, or at least reading the correct things from the community. Certainly for WoW, if not their other franchises. I don't see how they ever expected Diablo Immortal to go over well in the context they presented it in.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,524
RNG is great and can add to the experience (who hasn't felt the rush of getting something you've wanted for so long). But having a really high crappy RNG loot-system is OK if they throw loot at you like Diablo does, or you'd be finished too quick, but when meaningful upgrades are so rare in WoW, especially if you don't raid, then having so much random bullshit drop really isn't good enough.

I actually think the return on time investment is much higher for M+ than for raiding. It's easy to get gear in this game. Yeah you don't get random drops every kill like diablo but it's fast enough. I don't think the RNG is high in this game due to how easy it is to get gear. Sure, people can have unlucky streaks. But you can also easily get a lucky streak to make up for it. I don't think meaningful upgrades are rare either, even if you don't raid. I mean, after a certain point gear acquisition rate does mellow out but that's ok and expected. When you're at 400+ you definitely experience slower gains on gear, but it's not all about gear anyway.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Well it looks like Ythisens was let go (CM).

Things must be political as hell over there internally, as the dissenting opinions coming to bat for an upset community are banished.

It's probably pretty damn ugly actually if you don't tote the prevailing internal messages publicly or privately. But that's not exactly surprising with some of the horror stories I've heard recently. They're just pretty good at suppressing those.
 
Last edited:

TiredGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,815
One of the real problems with RNG is learning where to apply it in a system and how to use it to stoke the reward centers in the player's brain. The token system in prior expansions has rewards disengaged from player interaction (you build up tokens through boss kills), which actually harmed reward anticipation (paradoxically). Blizzard is trying to create active and passive reward anticipation by using a second RNG system, but I feel by expanding it across so many reward paths they've actually harmed their original reward system (kill boss, get loot). This is very harmful because of the aforementioned disengagement where the reward has become separate from interaction, and because of the broad application of the secondary RNG to so many reward paths the player is left unsatisfied when a reward does not engage it (the Titanforging system). In a sense Blizzard are rewarding players with gear that are themselves tokens for the gear the player now has anticipation for. The reason this is especially problematic follows from the vast array of sources of these "gear as tokens" -- Mythic, Mythic+, raids, PVP... you are now seeing decision fatigue writ large, because the human brain is not designed to balance so many possibilities at once and instead tries to find an "easy" path to the goal. This creates gaps in participation which Blizzard sees in their metrics and tries to remedy but in doing so (via Warfronts, invasions, etc.) actually exacerbate the problem by creating more reward paths which a player must decide on. This fatigue is deadly to such a rewards-driven game as an RPG and by continuing to build more and more reward paths, Blizzard may think they are helping players but they are actually doing harm.

TLDR: Titanforging and the explosion of gearing opportunities is actually really harmful in a psychological sense to players.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
One of the real problems with RNG is learning where to apply it in a system and how to use it to stoke the reward centers in the player's brain. The token system in prior expansions has rewards disengaged from player interaction (you build up tokens through boss kills), which actually harmed reward anticipation (paradoxically). Blizzard is trying to create active and passive reward anticipation by using a second RNG system, but I feel by expanding it across so many reward paths they've actually harmed their original reward system (kill boss, get loot). This is very harmful because of the aforementioned disengagement where the reward has become separate from interaction, and because of the broad application of the secondary RNG to so many reward paths the player is left unsatisfied when a reward does not engage it (the Titanforging system). In a sense Blizzard are rewarding players with gear that are themselves tokens for the gear the player now has anticipation for. The reason this is especially problematic follows from the vast array of sources of these "gear as tokens" -- Mythic, Mythic+, raids, PVP... you are now seeing decision fatigue writ large, because the human brain is not designed to balance so many possibilities at once and instead tries to find an "easy" path to the goal. This creates gaps in participation which Blizzard sees in their metrics and tries to remedy but in doing so (via Warfronts, invasions, etc.) actually exacerbate the problem by creating more reward paths which a player must decide on. This fatigue is deadly to such a rewards-driven game as an RPG and by continuing to build more and more reward paths, Blizzard may think they are helping players but they are actually doing harm.

TLDR: Titanforging and the explosion of gearing opportunities is actually really harmful in a psychological sense to players.

I think you're pretty on point here. Titanforging, removal of Master Loot, proliferation of loot sources, etc. in combination create an especially poisonous stew of a gearing system.
 

PurpleRainz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,587
I'm 74 and I have 26 hours played I checked an alt from 7.3.5 and it was level 68 at 1 day 8 hours played quite an improvement. I'd like to thank my job for cutting my hours and giving me the free time to do this.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Yup gotta look at the brightside lol lots of time for books and games at least my girlfriend still has her 40 hours and they could have fired me instead of just making me part time.

Definitely look at polishing your CV or brush up on practical skills as well in your free time, even if you spend some of the extra time having fun.
 

PurpleRainz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,587
Definitely look at polishing your CV or brush up on practical skills as well in your free time, even if you spend some of the extra time having fun.

I filled out some applications today I cleaned the house from top to bottom but if worse comes to worse I have a decent sized collection of games and action figures thank god for Dragonball Super so those Japanese action figures my ex wife got me are worth something.
 

Codosbuya

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,329
Disclosure: I work at Blizz

Our dog passed away a couple of months ago, and a friend on the quest design team got him in the game as a tribute in 8.1.
DuKu56SX4AAxLE4.jpg:large


He's in the pet house in Boralus, so please go give him some scritches.
DuKvKkGW4AE97PL.jpg:large
Hey, I wanted to check out on you. Are you ok? The recent terrible news reminded me of you and your poor dog :(
 

PurpleRainz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,587
how are you leveling? only regular questing? only LFG dungeons? PVP?


From 20 until I unlock Dire Maul I quest while I do dungeons once I unlock dire maul I strictly quest until level 70 when I queue for BC and WOTLK dungeons while I quest. 80-90 I stay in Cata with Warmode doing Mount Hyjal will normally get me to 84 or 85 and I do 85-90 in Udlum. I don't turn warmode on until 60 because the eastern kingdoms is crawling with bored level 120s looking to squish any low level they come across WOTLK-Cata are safe because normally high levels only go to certain areas and the zones are big enough you can avoid them I've only been ganked once out of 5 subraces and that was in Pandaria in a mine where some high level was mining and most other levelers will leave you alone.
 
Last edited:

PurpleRainz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,587
I hit 110 1 day 23 hours fastest I've seen is 1 day 18 hours. It's still about 16 hours faster than before they reverted the xp requirements. My sub runs out in two days do yall think it's worth playing BFA? My sub runs out in two days and I got Anthem coming out next Friday.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
I got an Alliance character to 365, finally. The game finally stopped trolling me and gave me a 370 weapon as I had been rocking a 294 in my off-hand since hitting 120.

I did LFR Dazar and idk. I know its not a fair judge of what the raid actually is but my main complaint is going to a zone that we've already explored and presenting it as new. I can't comment on the fights because they were all standard LFR clusterfucks but I felt I'd seen everything in there, from an aesthetic standpoint, before already. Yeah, there's a few new areas but it's still a capital city (another horde one, at that) so I kinda got the same feeling for it as Siege of Orgrimmar and Dragon Soul. Hopefully Crucible is all new stuff but just under Shrine of the Storm and doesn't reuse any of that dungeon. I haven't looked at the PTR of it though so I'm not sure that's the case. I'm sure I'm being a bit silly with this but I really like when you don't know fully know what a raid is going to look like when stepping inside.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Bad news for you then, from what I've seen the first boss in Crucible reuses the last room in Shrine almost 1:1 (maybe just expanded to host a raid boss vs. a dungeon one).

I'm not sure if the second boss in there has been tested, but I think that one is in some other room below.

But yeah the reuse of yet another Horde capital is kinda boring. Again, even if there are new areas.

Compare to some previous raids which had many more new or lesser used assets while still remaining thematically relevant.

I think shorter raids it's much more excusable though compared to "full raid tiers".
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
Bad news for you then, from what I've seen the first boss in Crucible reuses the last room in Shrine almost 1:1 (maybe just expanded to host a raid boss vs. a dungeon one).

I'm not sure if the second boss in there has been tested, but I think that one is in some other room below.

But yeah the reuse of yet another Horde capital is kinda boring. Again, even if there are new areas.

Compare to some previous raids which had many more new or lesser used assets while still remaining thematically relevant.

I think shorter raids it's much more excusable though compared to "full raid tiers".

Yeah I'm more willing to forgive a shorter raid like Helya than a full on zone. Even with the interior places in Dazar'alor it's just the same imo. So Azshara's palace is what I'm really waiting for I guess. I will say I liked the look of Uldir even if it was more titans and a pain to traverse.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Yeah I'm more willing to forgive a shorter raid like Helya than a full on zone. Even with the interior places in Dazar'alor it's just the same imo. So Azshara's palace is what I'm really waiting for I guess. I will say I liked the look of Uldir even if it was more titans and a pain to traverse.

Uldir was passable but I still thought it was kinda tired compared to other titan facilities or old god oriented raids. But maybe better to compare it to launch raids in general? I think aesthetically it might beat a couple, and maybe some others mechanically or in terms of difficulty, but overall was just kinda bleh.

I definitely think Azshara's palace or whatever is the real test because if I don't see some elaborate as shit environment that matches my expectations of her personality and good boss mechanics to match, I sleep.

I'm hoping for the Nighthold on steroids with a fishy Naga twist. Because all things said and done, Nighthold was an objectively solid raid. Even with Suramar city in general being accessible the whole time before. There was a lot of buildup and the payoff was quite good.

And I'm aware it'll be surfaced or at least partially surfaced in some way, but it also kind of has to make up for the missing Neptulon raid that was cut from the Firelands patch, as good as Firelands may have been.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
Uldir was passable but I still thought it was kinda tired compared to other titan facilities or old god oriented raids. But maybe better to compare it to launch raids in general? I think aesthetically it might beat a couple, and maybe some others mechanically or in terms of difficulty, but overall was just kinda bleh.

I definitely think Azshara's palace or whatever is the real test because if I don't see some elaborate as shit environment that matches my expectations of her personality and good boss mechanics to match, I sleep.

I'm hoping for the Nighthold on steroids with a fishy Naga twist. Because all things said and done, Nighthold was an objectively solid raid. Even with Suramar city in general being accessible the whole time before. There was a lot of buildup and the payoff was quite good.

And I'm aware it'll be surfaced or at least partially surfaced in some way, but it also kind of has to make up for the missing Neptulon raid that was cut from the Firelands patch, as good as Firelands may have been.

I was super hoping for a Neptulon raid at some point and I guess they could but after the whole Shaman campaign and "lol I don't have time to tell you that story" or whatever with h is reappearance I doubt it will happen. But Azshara's palace needs to be Nighthold and the non-fel parts of Tomb + a bit of Well of Eternity + fish stuffs. It needs to be visually interesting in a lot of ways. I honestly hope it's kinda unsettling more than anything else. It should be, too. We'll see how that happens.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
I was super hoping for a Neptulon raid at some point and I guess they could but after the whole Shaman campaign and "lol I don't have time to tell you that story" or whatever with h is reappearance I doubt it will happen. But Azshara's palace needs to be Nighthold and the non-fel parts of Tomb + a bit of Well of Eternity + fish stuffs. It needs to be visually interesting in a lot of ways. I honestly hope it's kinda unsettling more than anything else. It should be, too. We'll see how that happens.

Yeah, some combination of Nighthold, non-fel parts of Tomb, and maybe a little Black Temple too. All with whatever creepy fishy stuff. Maybe a little Sunwell or Well of Eternity stuff as well?

These are all the sorts of raids that I think have been some of the best thematically for sure, and oftentimes have had high mechanical encounter quality as well.

So I expect something at least as around as good from such a similarly high quality villain.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
Yeah, some combination of Nighthold, non-fel parts of Tomb, and maybe a little Black Temple too. All with whatever creepy fishy stuff. Maybe a little Sunwell or Well of Eternity stuff as well?

These are all the sorts of raids that I think have been some of the best thematically for sure, and oftentimes have had high mechanical encounter quality as well.

So I expect something at least as around as good from such a similarly high quality villain.

Yeah, exactly. I think the inspirations are there and have been clearly established. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as anything that's come before and has its own spin it'll be okay. Azshara has been hinted at so much and is such an important lore figure that she deserves a crazy awesome raid zone. (and to not die in this patch)
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Yeah, exactly. I think the inspirations are there and have been clearly established. As long as it doesn't look exactly the same as anything that's come before and has its own spin it'll be okay. Azshara has been hinted at so much and is such an important lore figure that she deserves a crazy awesome raid zone. (and to not die in this patch)

They'd be stupid if she got killed for real and not just defeated in some way after this long and having basically no interaction outside of what might occur in the patch.

She doesn't have to be buddy buddy like Illidan ended up as, but it would be a huge disservice to just off her.
 

Prophet Five

Pundeath Knight
Member
Nov 11, 2017
7,690
The Great Dark Beyond
They'd be stupid if she got killed for real and not just defeated in some way after this long and having basically no interaction outside of what might occur in the patch.

She doesn't have to be buddy buddy like Illidan ended up as, but it would be a huge disservice to just off her.

I agree with your whole post but you and I both know not to set our expectations too high.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
So do you get more experience from leveling in Timewalking dungeons?

Uh, I don't think so really and they're probably not as good as level appropriate dungeons (which were needed quite heavily compared to what they once were recently).

But they can be a fun diversion. Just like leveling through BGs isn't that efficient, even if you had both PvP bonus BG experience heirlooms (plus all the others). And that's something a very minority fraction of the playerbase would have, significantly less than 1%. Because the Darkmoon Deathmatch one is a pain and a half especially.
 
OP
OP
Tachya

Tachya

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
TW dungeons let you use your old legendary gear, just FYI.

Yeah, but if leveling a new character or a character that doesn't have legendary gear that would be more relevant (i.e. one that didn't play in Legion), you're SOL.

Because even though we're getting WoD timewalking soon, I don't think the Legendary ring will necessarily start pumping again. It didn't really work in older TW dungeons either where you're scaled back to less than 100 iirc. Same with some of the other legendaries. It's a toss-up on what will work and what won't, because the guy(s) in charge of this kinda thing are buddies with the Transmog guy, who also don't give a fuck and throws darts to determine transmog restrictions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.