World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth |OT2| Bless Your Heart

Bregor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
410
So, heroic Ashvane.

HEEEEEELP!

The frustrating thing is that we've got no real benchmark as to *where* we're failing. We can just about scrape through the first shield and nuke phase, and maybe get to about the last 10% of the second shield. The nuke phase (sans heroism) is only burning through maybe 30% of her health, so we're currently in line with four nuke phases - and that's one thing that people generally suggest just isn't realistic to make it through a fourth coral-spawning phase.

But independent of that, the enrage timer is also a concern; we generally wipe on a good go about five minutes into the fight, and if DBM is trustworthy that's about halfway to enrage; we're simply not going to down her. Our guild's DPS generally isn't brilliant, but even the best players aren't really troubling the %age comparisons in the logs right now.

On top of that, the healers feel incredibly overwhelmed with the healing requirements, imagining that they're needing cooldowns for all bar the first Rippling Waves phases

It feels like we're doing something fundamentally wrong which is overstressing the heal requirements and hindering the DPS, and I've absolutely no idea what it is. When we look at the logs, our healers appear to be massively overperforming relative to their gear, and comparably, many of our DPS appear to be massively underperforming.

I've been trying to do log comparisons, but it looks like everything that's showing up when I do a search for comparable gearsets are Mythic-capable raids who are good enough to do huge numbers in gearsets comparable to ours, which isn't helpful for direct comparisons (when I tried to break the numbers down such that I could isolate just the first phase 1 and compare that, the only guild I stumbled on that had a phase 1 of similar length... did so because they accidentally let a bubble or two through which artificially extended the phase!)

Here's our best go. Anyone got any insight they can offer?
I'm not good at evaluating these logs, but your dps does appear low. Your team has slightly less gear than us, but not enourmasly so.

Here is one of our Heroic Ashvane kills for comparison:


We have at least 6 people over 30k and aim to get her down in the second burn phase. We don't even bother to break the corals in the second burn phase since we know she will die anyway.

I noticed that your peak dps comes at pull rather than a burn phase, when are you blowing heroism / bloodlust?

Hope you resolve your problems.
 

Neverfade

Member
Oct 25, 2017
478
Just coming back from a brief stint at BFA launch. Did the Tides of Vengeance stuff, but where do I start the Saurfang/Thrall/Baine storyline?

Edit: Derp. Im just to the Battle of Dazar'alor in that line, just keep going?
 
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Naru

Member
May 11, 2019
267
I'll probably resub in the next few days. I have a Monk Mistweaver at max that I played in BfA until around the end of September last year. How long or how much work/grind would it be if I get back into the game now to get to a gear level where I could start doing the new content that they added since then (or the 8.2. to be more specific)? Is there stuff that lets you catch up quickly?
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,041
London
So, heroic Ashvane.

HEEEEEELP!

The frustrating thing is that we've got no real benchmark as to *where* we're failing. We can just about scrape through the first shield and nuke phase, and maybe get to about the last 10% of the second shield. The nuke phase (sans heroism) is only burning through maybe 30% of her health, so we're currently in line with four nuke phases - and that's one thing that people generally suggest just isn't realistic to make it through a fourth coral-spawning phase.

But independent of that, the enrage timer is also a concern; we generally wipe on a good go about five minutes into the fight, and if DBM is trustworthy that's about halfway to enrage; we're simply not going to down her. Our guild's DPS generally isn't brilliant, but even the best players aren't really troubling the %age comparisons in the logs right now.

On top of that, the healers feel incredibly overwhelmed with the healing requirements, imagining that they're needing cooldowns for all bar the first Rippling Waves phases

It feels like we're doing something fundamentally wrong which is overstressing the heal requirements and hindering the DPS, and I've absolutely no idea what it is. When we look at the logs, our healers appear to be massively overperforming relative to their gear, and comparably, many of our DPS appear to be massively underperforming.

I've been trying to do log comparisons, but it looks like everything that's showing up when I do a search for comparable gearsets are Mythic-capable raids who are good enough to do huge numbers in gearsets comparable to ours, which isn't helpful for direct comparisons (when I tried to break the numbers down such that I could isolate just the first phase 1 and compare that, the only guild I stumbled on that had a phase 1 of similar length... did so because they accidentally let a bubble or two through which artificially extended the phase!)

Here's our best go. Anyone got any insight they can offer?
I'm not good at evaluating these logs, but your dps does appear low. Your team has slightly less gear than us, but not enourmasly so.

Here is one of our Heroic Ashvane kills for comparison:


We have at least 6 people over 30k and aim to get her down in the second burn phase. We don't even bother to break the corals in the second burn phase since we know she will die anyway.

I noticed that your peak dps comes at pull rather than a burn phase, when are you blowing heroism / bloodlust?

Hope you resolve your problems.
I'm not amazing at evaluating logs either but your dps is really pretty low all round. This is partly because I can't see a lust/TW/hero cast in that log. Are you saving it for some particular reason? My guild lusts about a minute in, as soon as the first shield is down. All major cooldowns and 2nd pots are saved for this, though any minor CDs are used on pull. We usually get the boss down to 40-45% in this first damage phase. We also do our best to get all corals down so we go in fresh for the 2nd shield, though tanks and melees tend to stick at or close to boss if possible while ranged do the majority work of positioning. 1 coral still being up is survivable but a pain, 2 is almost certainly a wipe. Then, like Bregor's guild, we ignore the corals for second damage phase so we can kill boss and not go into a 3rd shield phase (again major CDs are saved, up to people to work out if they can use them in shield phase and have them back for damage phase). We still free people from briny bubbles asap. All briny bubble targets stack up if possible for easy cleave down.

Only other general tip I can think of is to make sure that people stagger intercepting the rippling waves so healers have time to top the raid up and that nobody intercepts more than one wave if at all possible because it's really hard to keep someone up if they take multiple hits. Again, like with the coral, ranged usually take the waves first while melee are there in close to intercept anthing that gets through.

here's my guild's log for our kill on Wednesday if it helps at all:

Ashvane Kill
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,041
London
Just coming back from a brief stint at BFA launch. Did the Tides of Vengeance stuff, but where do I start the Saurfang/Thrall/Baine storyline?

Edit: Derp. Im just to the Battle of Dazar'alor in that line, just keep going?
Just keep going. The Saurfang/Thrall/Baine stuff starts in Nazjatar but I think you need to have done the rest of the war campaign first.
I'll probably resub in the next few days. I have a Monk Mistweaver at max that I played in BfA until around the end of September last year. How long or how much work/grind would it be if I get back into the game now to get to a gear level where I could start doing the new content that they added since then (or the 8.2. to be more specific)? Is there stuff that lets you catch up quickly?
A few hours in the new zone of Nazjatar will give you lots of 385 benthic gear which is relatively cheap to upgrade to 400 using a zone currency (but gets progressively more expensive and time consuming to upgrade beyond that). There's also a couple new world bosses in Nazjatar that drop 415 gear, as do emissary quests. You might get a few upgrades from normal WQs with lucky warforging. New raid lfr has 400 gear, as do normal mythic dungeons.

Basically it shouldn't take you long to get up to 400ish which is sufficient for normal raiding or low M+.

More info on the benthic gear here:
Benthic Guide
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,426
I'm not good at evaluating these logs, but your dps does appear low. Your team has slightly less gear than us, but not enourmasly so.

Here is one of our Heroic Ashvane kills for comparison:


We have at least 6 people over 30k and aim to get her down in the second burn phase. We don't even bother to break the corals in the second burn phase since we know she will die anyway.
The thing that's really throwing me off is that while our DPS does tend to the low side, some of our best performers are showing up as not stepping up here, which is very suspicious and makes me think that we're doing something fundamentally wrong behind the scenes which is hampering their ability to DPS, but if that's the case, they've not been able to articulate what the issue is.

Zakera's a good example; she's often one of our most reliable performers, regularly getting purple ratings for her ilvl performance on many fights. Here's the Behemoth heroic fight from the other day, and she's right up there. And for that matter, her performance does stand out on the last pull of last night's attempts, where she's up in the blues - which is why her being in the grey for the other attempts is so wrong, and causes me to think that there might be something else awry.

I noticed that your peak dps comes at pull rather than a burn phase, when are you blowing heroism / bloodlust?
I'm not amazing at evaluating logs either but your dps is really pretty low all round. This is partly because I can't see a lust/TW/hero cast in that log. Are you saving it for some particular reason? My guild lusts about a minute in, as soon as the first shield is down. All major cooldowns and 2nd pots are saved for this, though any minor CDs are used on pull. We usually get the boss down to 40-45% in this first damage phase.
We were planning to use it for the third shield (don't think it's realistic to have just two burns with out DPS), but aren't getting there. That said, I hadn't thought of the possibility of ignoring coral on the phase we're expecting her to die, that's probably worth a bit more DPS, and maybe that would get us down to fewer. Our first burn gets through ~30% without lust.

Presumably if we're doing that it makes more sense to use the heroism on the second burn, since we also take the corals out of the picture?

(I suppose that does lead to pure DPS numbers being misleading, since we're not getting the segment of the fight where DPS is maximised, but even so...)

Either way, whenever we do decide to use heroism, there's still enough of the fight where we don't have it and are still struggling!


We also do our best to get all corals down so we go in fresh for the 2nd shield, though tanks and melees tend to stick at or close to boss if possible while ranged do the majority work of positioning. 1 coral still being up is survivable but a pain, 2 is almost certainly a wipe. Then, like Bregor's guild, we ignore the corals for second damage phase so we can kill boss and not go into a 3rd shield phase (again major CDs are saved, up to people to work out if they can use them in shield phase and have them back for damage phase). We still free people from briny bubbles asap. All briny bubble targets stack up if possible for easy cleave down.
One factor that our low DPS leads to - potentially - is having more opportunities for coral to spawn and therefore having more to deal with in the transition.

I'm not amazing at evaluating logs either but your dps is really pretty low all round. This is partly because I can't see a lust/TW/hero cast in that log. Are you saving it for some particular reason? My guild lusts about a minute in, as soon as the first shield is down. All major cooldowns and 2nd pots are saved for this, though any minor CDs are used on pull. We usually get the boss down to 40-45% in this first damage phase. We also do our best to get all corals down so we go in fresh for the 2nd shield, though tanks and melees tend to stick at or close to boss if possible while ranged do the majority work of positioning. 1 coral still being up is survivable but a pain, 2 is almost certainly a wipe. Then, like Bregor's guild, we ignore the corals for second damage phase so we can kill boss and not go into a 3rd shield phase (again major CDs are saved, up to people to work out if they can use them in shield phase and have them back for damage phase). We still free people from briny bubbles asap. All briny bubble targets stack up if possible for easy cleave down.

Only other general tip I can think of is to make sure that people stagger intercepting the rippling waves so healers have time to top the raid up and that nobody intercepts more than one wave if at all possible because it's really hard to keep someone up if they take multiple hits. Again, like with the coral, ranged usually take the waves first while melee are there in close to intercept anthing that gets through.
One thing that's often in the back of my mind is how best to co-ordinate intercepting bubbles. When I'm free - as a tank - I try to take on what I can myself, since I can reasonably safely take multiple stacks of Waterlogged (and bubble them off if necessary), plus since it's only me making the assessment I can look at the raid health and determine if it's safe to pop them (I also do overloads on Normal Azshara for much the same reason), but when there's multiple people having to make decisions independently, it's a bit tougher.

Thanks for the logs from each of you, that's going to be much more representative data to compare against.
 
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Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,041
London
The thing that's really throwing me off is that while our DPS does tend to the low side, some of our best performers are showing up as not stepping up here, which is very suspicious and makes me think that we're doing something fundamentally wrong behind the scenes which is hampering their ability to DPS, but if that's the case, they've not been able to articulate what the issue is.

Zakera's a good example; she's often one of our most reliable performers, regularly getting purple ratings for her ilvl performance on many fights. Here's the Behemoth heroic fight from the other day, and she's right up there. And for that matter, her performance does stand out on the last pull of last night's attempts, where she's up in the blues - which is why her being in the grey for the other attempts is so wrong, and causes me to think that there might be something else awry.



We were planning to use it for the third shield (don't think it's realistic to have just two burns with out DPS), but aren't getting there. That said, I hadn't thought of the possibility of ignoring coral on the phase we're expecting her to die, that's probably worth a bit more DPS, and maybe that would get us down to fewer. Our first burn gets through ~30% without lust.

Presumably if we're doing that it makes more sense to use the heroism on the second burn, since we also take the corals out of the picture?

(I suppose that does lead to pure DPS numbers being misleading, since we're not getting the segment of the fight where DPS is maximised, but even so...)

Either way, whenever we do decide to use heroism, there's still enough of the fight where we don't have it and are still struggling!
We've been using lust on the 1st burn phase because that way we guarantee everyone is still up to benefit from it, but in theory you're right that using it at second burn phase while ignoring coral and in the execute phase would be more optimal. If you can keep everyone alive for it then I'd say go for it.

If at all possible I would aim to keep it to two burn phases because a 3rd shield phase is going to be really long and tough on the healers though I can see with how low dps is generally that seems difficult. But try lusting in 1st or 2nd phase and see how much of a difference that makes.

Edit: Looked at your Behemoth kill and it's clear to me that a lot of your dps are under performing generally. Your kill took almost two minutes longer than my guild's (and we are not exceptional players by any means), and while a higher average ilvl and different raid sizes are factors, you've got things like our pala tank doing higher dps than four of your dps. And even your 430+ ilvl dps are doing 5kish less than what they should be. My best guess from experience is that, aside from general sub-optimal play, quite a few of your players are not making sure they're fully gemmed and enchanted and/or using flasks, pots and food buffs.

My guild's Behemoth kill for comparison:
Behemoth Kill
 
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mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,426
We've been using lust on the 1st burn phase because that way we guarantee everyone is still up to benefit from it, but in theory you're right that using it at second burn phase while ignoring coral and in the execute phase would be more optimal. If you can keep everyone alive for it then I'd say go for it.

If at all possible I would aim to keep it to two burn phases because a 3rd shield phase is going to be really long and tough on the healers though I can see with how low dps is generally that seems difficult. But try lusting in 1st or 2nd phase and see how much of a difference that makes.

Edit: Looked at your Behemoth kill and it's clear to me that a lot of your dps are under performing generally. Your kill took almost two minutes longer than my guild's (and we are not exceptional players by any means), and while a higher average ilvl and different raid sizes are factors, you've got things like our pala tank doing higher dps than four of your dps. And even your 430+ ilvl dps are doing 5kish less than what they should be. My best guess from experience is that, aside from general sub-optimal play, quite a few of your players are not making sure they're fully gemmed and enchanted and/or using flasks, pots and food buffs.

My guild's Behemoth kill for comparison:
Behemoth Kill
I think it's generally more likely to be the sub-optimal play, although we're not wealthy enough to supply the newest 8.2 top end flasks/food on a regular basis, we do supply old top-end freely. Potting is the big exception, we're not great on that simply through lack of supply - but that would only affect burst moments, not sustained DPS, and I think the core of our DPS issues are in sustained play.

One example is Kaaryki, who's spoken to me about his difficulty this expansion; in the past he's been a consistent top performer, but something isn't firing for him this time around and he's struggling; he's 430+ because he's felt he has to put in that much effort in gearing to compensate for where he's failing in that regard. I'm going to point him towards the BM hunter in Molotov's guild, because I suspect he'll be able to glean something useful out of that.

On which note, I'm not exempt - I am the pally tank in our lineup, and while tank DPS shouldn't be crucial, mine is still consistently below average. I ought to work on that - although I think in the window I'm looking at a big factor is that I'm helping out on waves and therefore aren't meleeing. Maybe I shouldn't do that.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,041
London
I think it's generally more likely to be the sub-optimal play, although we're not wealthy enough to supply the newest 8.2 top end flasks/food on a regular basis, we do supply old top-end freely. Potting is the big exception, we're not great on that simply through lack of supply - but that would only affect burst moments, not sustained DPS, and I think the core of our DPS issues are in sustained play.

One example is Kaaryki, who's spoken to me about his difficulty this expansion; in the past he's been a consistent top performer, but something isn't firing for him this time around and he's struggling; he's 430+ because he's felt he has to put in that much effort in gearing to compensate for where he's failing in that regard. I'm going to point him towards the BM hunter in Molotov's guild, because I suspect he'll be able to glean something useful out of that.

On which note, I'm not exempt - I am the pally tank in our lineup, and while tank DPS shouldn't be crucial, mine is still consistently below average. I ought to work on that - although I think in the window I'm looking at a big factor is that I'm helping out on waves and therefore aren't meleeing. Maybe I shouldn't do that.
My guild leader supplies one cauldron per raid, beyond that people are expected to bring their own flasks, pots and food (and gems and enchants). I know it can be difficult for everyone to farm/afford these things but for dps races like Ashvane it's pretty essential for everyone to be as prepared as possible.

Honestly I'm having the same demoralising issues this xpac with consistency. There's always been a luck element with raid drops but the amount of variation now with things like M+ drops, azerite traits and now essences means that it's so much more difficult to keep up. Back in WoD and early Legion I regularly parsed purple, even getting an orange ranking several times. Once people started getting nice dps legendaries in Legion while I only got defensive ones I dropped like a stone and it was frustrating. Nowadays I'm super lucky if I ever scrape a purple parse and I don't know whether it's my play or my gear or what. Our Radiance kill on Wednesday I was super happy with my dps of not quite 31k and thought I must be up there because my rotation was tight and no errors I was aware of only to discover it was a green parse on the logs for my ilvl. My essence combination isn't ideal because I don't have a level 3 condensed life force yet but apart from that...? No idea.
 

Bregor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
410
I would recommend using hero in the first burn phase. We got her below 35% during it this week and our Warrior loved us for it.
 

Zastava

Member
Feb 19, 2018
1,041
London
We don't have a DPS warrior, alas!

Good thoughts, though, what other classes still have bonuses at low enemy health?
Ret can still talent into Hammer of Wrath, though it's sub 20% only*. And both Arms and Fury have to talent into a sub 35% Execute and it's not very good for Fury.
Thirded! I honestly didn't know for years that Alliance called it Heroism cause most people still called it lust or time warp online. Hero just sounds... wrong.



*Hammer of Wrath becoming a talent is such a garbage decision I am disgust. Say what you will about the general quality of WoD but Ret was fucking amazing to play. Such a fun fast paced magic knight playstyle, with loads of ranged holy abilities in Final Verdict, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath and Execution Sentence that I could maintain great dps even against bosses with long periods I couldn't melee much like Oregorger. Then as soon as Legion pre-patch hit I dropped Ret like a rock in favour of Windwalker after maining it for 3 xpacs. Slow, boring, ability pruned into nothingness.

I still haven't settled on a new main since then, alternating between Windwalker, Enhancement and Fury. And even now I'm thinking about giving Survival a go.
 
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Milo Rambaldi

Milo Rambaldi

Member
Nov 11, 2017
2,857
Florida
Remember when people shit on Blizzard for giving Mages (and Hunters to a lesser extent) access to the BLOODLUST ability? And how more access to raid cooldowns was a "bad thing that killed class diversity."

Pepperidge Farms remembers.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,058
Are they gonna announce the server list or something? Dunno what server my guild is even playing on yet.
We are supposed to get Server name lists sometime over the weekend so we can reserve character names Monday.

I played for 2 or 3 hours yesterday and I’m unbelievably pumped. When I realized I couldn’t even afford my skinning knife I was like “this, this is what I’m looking for”.
The race to get that 80 copper or so was nuts, because thanks to the dynamic respawns there were skinnable beasts EVERY where. All that silver down the drain until someone can afford a knife to skin them and sell it for silver to train with. It was hilarious. Like me and 12 other people slaughtering pigs then running back to town for a knife, then running back to the field of carcasses and skinning like crazy.

:You skin beast:
FAILED ATTEMPT
:You skin beast:
FAILED ATTEMPT

*screams internally*
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,112
We are supposed to get Server name lists sometime over the weekend so we can reserve character names Monday.



The race to get that 80 copper or so was nuts, because thanks to the dynamic respawns there were skinnable beasts EVERY where. All that silver down the drain until someone can afford a knife to skin them and sell it for silver to train with. It was hilarious. Like me and 12 other people slaughtering pigs then running back to town for a knife, then running back to the field of carcasses and skinning like crazy.

:You skin beast:
FAILED ATTEMPT
:You skin beast:
FAILED ATTEMPT

*screams internally*
They actually already posted
 

Nista

Member
Oct 26, 2017
513
I fourth the lust requirement. :)

I feel kinda meh about classic, whereas everyone else I play with is all jazzed for it. But I started playing WoW back in OG beta, so maybe I just can't get roped in by nostalgia for it. It probably doesn't help that they are talking about playing alliance, so as a 15 year shaman main... ehhh.
 

Vapelord

Member
Oct 27, 2017
759
Montreal
I fourth the lust requirement. :)

I feel kinda meh about classic, whereas everyone else I play with is all jazzed for it. But I started playing WoW back in OG beta, so maybe I just can't get roped in by nostalgia for it. It probably doesn't help that they are talking about playing alliance, so as a 15 year shaman main... ehhh.
Same, I was playing WoW prob about 1 month after its original release. I've become too accustomed to the QoL changes over the years, have no interest in Classic.
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
None of the folks I know that are still active in retail WoW are super psyched about classic either. No one is really "lol vanilla is bad this is dumb" or anything, there just isn't much excitement or anticipation about it.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
I'm morbidly curious about Classic.

I'll try it out but I probably won't like it.

I don't have nostalgia for it and the game design is so dated/broken that I probably won't stick around for long.

Now, if they decide to create new, original content for Classic after Naxxramas is released, -that- would be interesting.
 
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Milo Rambaldi

Milo Rambaldi

Member
Nov 11, 2017
2,857
Florida
before anyone jumps on me: I know this isn't happening, lol

but I would consider buying a level boost for Classic just so I could explore the old world more easily
 

Anoregon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,078
BC plays so different from Vanilla
I'm sure opinions vary wildly, but I don't really agree with that. I think BC did a great job of improving upon/refining the vanilla experience while preserving the overall feel of the game. Flying being the exception, of course. It wasn't until Wrath when the game started to have really significant additions/fundamental changes (and I say that as someone whose favorite era of the game was Wrath).
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,112
I think only flight was the real fundamental change between BC and vanilla. But that wasn't a good thing. I thought the game didn't change enough between vanilla, BC, and wrath which is why I stopped playing in wrath.
 

Finaj

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,906
I'm sure opinions vary wildly, but I don't really agree with that. I think BC did a great job of improving upon/refining the vanilla experience while preserving the overall feel of the game. Flying being the exception, of course. It wasn't until Wrath when the game started to have really significant additions/fundamental changes (and I say that as someone whose favorite era of the game was Wrath).
I can see that.

But it still creates a problem. Eventually they're just going to run out of content people are nostalgic for (I can maybe see them doing WotLK, but not anything beyond that). They either just stop adding things and leave it to die, or they create new content that plays like how the game was originally designed.
 

MrH

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,807
Fuck War Mode, it makes the game completely unplayable. I normally have it off but there's a quest on Mechagon Island that requires it on and you just can't do it, the whole Island is covered in Alliance fuck boys who gank you on sight. I have no idea why Blizzard would make a WM only daily when it's so imbalanced.
 

Lashley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,982
Fuck War Mode, it makes the game completely unplayable. I normally have it off but there's a quest on Mechagon Island that requires it on and you just can't do it, the whole Island is covered in Alliance fuck boys who gank you on sight. I have no idea why Blizzard would make a WM only daily when it's so imbalanced.
its the other way around on my server lol

just use the group finder and group up
 

derder

Member
Nov 1, 2017
324
I'm resubscribing for wow classic and I have two wow accounts associated with my battle.net account. Does anyone know how I can determine which is on each account without paying for the month?
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,580
None of the folks I know that are still active in retail WoW are super psyched about classic either. No one is really "lol vanilla is bad this is dumb" or anything, there just isn't much excitement or anticipation about it.
Because we know better. We know we like the game that's up on offer and will probably get bored instantly of Classic. I mean, fuck it, I'm probably gonna get swept up in the hype of it, especially if friends return, but it'll fall apart fast when people are bummed by the QOL downsides from 2004.
 

Magnus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,580
Oh man. I just fired it up for a look. Created a human warlock (my original first character back in 2005) and ran OOM fighting a kobold in elwynn. Never Alt-F4'd so fast in my life. That wasn't fun.