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Uzzy

Gabe’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,201
Hull, UK
www.theguardian.com

Transgender women swimmers barred from female competitions by Fina

New policy states that transgender women who have experienced ‘any part of male puberty’ cannot compete in female events following the report of a scientific panel

Swimming's world governing body, Fina, has voted to bar transgender women from elite female competitions if they have experienced any part of male puberty, in a seismic decision that sets it apart from most Olympic sports.

The decision, decided by 71% of the vote of 152 national federations at the world championships in Budapest, followed a report from a Fina scientific panel that found trans women retained a significant advantage over cisgender female swimmers even after reducing their testosterone levels through medication.

In a new 34-page policy document, Fina said that male-to-female transgender athletes could now compete in the women's category only "provided they have not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2 [which marks the start of physical development], or before age 12, whichever is later".

-----

FINA is only the second Olympic level organisation to introduce a ban like this, after World Rugby. Other organisations use testosterone levels, but FINA is demanding kids transition 'fully' before the age of 12 to compete. Which in the UK at least is almost impossible, the NHS will only start giving out hormone treatment after the age of 16 at an absolute minimum.

Inevitably TERFs welcomed the ban, with the UK Minister for Sport, Nadine Dorries, urging all other sports organisations to follow suit. Which would be devastating for involvement in sports. Already this ban would prevent Lia Thomas competing at the Olympics in the women's categories.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,759
Yeah. TERFS gonna have a field day with this. I'm trying to find a copy of the actual Fina study and am failing so far. If anyone finds, I'd love a link.

Found it. Reading now.
 
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mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,190
If other sports are using testosterone levels, why doesn't FINA? And is using testosterone levels also controversial?
 

ajido

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Dec 7, 2018
1,196
Pathetic that so many people are obsessed with this topic. Just let trans people live! Fuck.
 

BuckRogers

Member
Apr 5, 2018
774
If other sports are using testosterone levels, why doesn't FINA? And is using testosterone levels also controversial?

I'm not an expert here, but I do think there have been problems with testosterone levels as well. I think Castor Semenya ran into issues with it, but I could be misremembering. In general, trying to segregate sports based on a binary understanding of sex is something that's always going to have issues, I think.

No matter what, FINA's decision here sucks, and everyone celebrating it also sucks.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,190
I'm not an expert here, but I do think there have been problems with testosterone levels as well. I think Castor Semenya ran into issues with it, but I could be misremembering. In general, trying to segregate sports based on a binary understanding of sex is something that's always going to have issues, I think.

I'm not sure what the alternative to the binary issue, though, besides just letting men and women compete at all levels. It feels like some unscrupulous country would use this (if there were no regulations at all but the sports were still separated) as a loophole to get ahead, especially places where athletes are picked from near birth to compete.

Agreed that people cheering this on are crap, though.
 

Teusery

Member
May 18, 2022
2,349
Yeah its the definition of an "effective ban."

Trans people can compete, but only if they transition before 12.

Where can someone under the age of 12 transition? In increasingly limited spaces around the world.
 

Pandora012

Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
5,496
Yeah its the definition of an "effective ban."

Trans people can compete, but only if they transition before 12.

Where can someone under the age of 12 transition? In increasingly limited spaces around the world.
Hmmm i don't think you need to transition by then. In theory you can be put on puberty blockers. Even then, people still try to prevent that.

Is this ruling set in stone, or can it be challenged?
 

BuckRogers

Member
Apr 5, 2018
774
I'm not sure what the alternative to the binary issue, though, besides just letting men and women compete at all levels. It feels like some unscrupulous country would use this (if there were no regulations at all but the sports were still separated) as a loophole to get ahead, especially places where athletes are picked from near birth to compete.

Agreed that people cheering this on are crap, though.

Sorry, could've been clearer. I just meant that this is one of those things where there's no perfect answers, just levels of compromise. It's trying to lay a binary decision on top of something that's a continuum, and that's never really going to work. Of course, eliminating it entirely and forcing everyone to compete in the same competition is also a really bad idea.

FINA's decision is at the terrible, bigoted end of the spectrum here, it's just unfortunate that there's not really a "good" answer.
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
So is FINA also going to excluded Trans men from competing in the men's swimming competing too? Or is this only an exclusive thing for women's sports, because then that's also shitty on another level.
 

Gleethor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,522
Dot Matrix with stereo sound
Find me the trans athlete who wouldn't have gone on blockers at 12 if they had been able to. The same people who voted for this ban probably oppose having blockers even available to minors too! Fuck off
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
Hmmm i don't think you need to transition by then. In theory you can be put on puberty blockers. Even then, people still try to prevent that.

Is this ruling set in stone, or can it be challenged?

Technically true, but it's also a pointless distinction. Puberty blockers are the first step to transitioning as a child, and even then the vast majority of trans people did not have the option of puberty blockers.

For all and intents and purposes, this is a basically a full ban of trans folks.

So is FINA also going to excluded Trans men from competing in the men's swimming competing too? Or is this only an exclusive thing for women's sports, because then that's also shitty on another level.

I assume you're asking a hypothetical question, given we all already know how the world ignores trans men and likes to pretend they don't exist.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
So is FINA also going to excluded Trans men from competing in the men's swimming competing too? Or is this only an exclusive thing for women's sports, because then that's also shitty on another level.
I doubt it. They would basically be torpedoing their entire stance based around alleged competitive advantage if they excluded trans men from competing in the men's division.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,057
Absolutely terrible decision.

So is FINA also going to excluded Trans men from competing in the men's swimming competing too? Or is this only an exclusive thing for women's sports, because then that's also shitty on another level.

Trans men can compete as long as they get a testosterone exemption

Female-to-male transgender athletes (transgender men) are eligible to compete in FINA competitions and to set FINA World Records in the men's category, except that:

All athletes who are undergoing treatment involving testosterone or other anabolic substances as part of female-to-male genderaffirming hormone treatment are required to obtain a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) for that treatment in accordance with the FINA Doping Control Rules (FINA DCR).

Let's be honest, most of the folks celebrating this don't actually care about women's sports. They care about being shitty to trans folks.

Technically true, but it's also a pointless distinction. Puberty blockers are the first step to transitioning as a child, and even then the vast majority of trans people did not have the option of puberty blockers.

For all and intents and purposes, this is a basically a full ban of trans folks.



I assume you're asking a hypothetical question, given we all already know how the world ignores trans men and likes to pretend they don't exist.

The folks who agree with this decision don't want trans youth to be able to access puberty blockers or hormone therapy. They just don't want trans folks to exist.
 

mbpm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,616
Need to see the data on what this advantage consists of, and to what extent.

Not a good sign if things to come
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,759
Yeah, this is fucked. So this new policy is spitting in the face of the International Olympic Committee's new guidance they released titled Framework on Fairness, Inclusion and Non-discrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations from November 2021.

IOC gives sports new guidance on transgender athlete rules
Aiming to help sports write eligibility rules for transgender athletes, the IOC published advice Tuesday shifting the focus from individual testosterone levels and calling for evidence to prove when a performance advantage existed.

No athlete should be excluded from competing based on an "unverified, alleged or perceived unfair competitive advantage due to their sex variations, physical appearance and/or transgender status," the International Olympic Committee said.

If you want to read it in full, it's rather short. The presentation can be found here. Some key principles from the presentation are below. When reading, keep in mind things like how in 2003, the IOC officially allowed transgender athletes to compete, but only if they underwent sex reassignment surgery. This requirement wasn't removed until 2015:

Some key principles:
  • Fairness. Eligibility criteria should aim to : Ensure fairness. Prevent risk to physical safety. Prevent cheating by athletes who abuse inclusion rule.
  • No Presumption of Advantage. Athletes should not make assumptions based on how athletes look. Criteria should be based on evidence.
  • Evidence Based. Restrictions to competition should be based on robust, credible research. Sports organizations should follow criteria to prove that a disproportionate advantage orc safety risks exist
  • Primacy of Health. Athletes should not be pressured to undergo medically unnecessary procedures or treatment. Criteria should not include invasive examinations to their bodies
  • Stakholder Centered. Sports organizations should consult with athletes when setting criteria.Decisions that affect athletes should be fair, neutral and impartial. Athletes should have safe ways to raise concerns and grievances.
  • Privacy. Sports organizations should preserve the privacy of athletes. Compliance with privacy laws when handling information. Requiring informed consent from athletes to collecting personal data.
  • Periodic Review. Eligibility criteria should be subject to review as new developments arise.
The biggest problem with the IOC framework is that they're really just guidelines and they make clear, "the IOC offers guidance to International Federations on how to design eligibility criteria that work for their own sport/context, while considering fairness, inclusion and non-discrimination." I don't know if the IOC has the power to actually enforce anything to groups like FINA, but because they didn't we now get FINA's new document and policy that pretty much spits in the face of the IOC.

Now to jump through FINA's new policy and pick out some quotes. First off, they are clearly unhappy with IOC's framework. We get this early on:

Specifically, the IOC Framework rejects the presumption that the male sex confers an athletic advantage, and discourages continued reliance on a testosterone proxy as the exclusive basis for eligibility for the women's category.
What IOC actually said seems reasonable. "There is an unclear role of testosterone alone in predicting performance across all sports." They want organizations to move away from a one-size fits all approach. Of course, there is so much more than just this in the IOC guidelines, but it is what gets hyper-focused below---

In January 2022, the International Federation of Sports Medicine and the European Federation of Sports Medicine Associations issued a joint position statement (Joint Position Statement) responding to what those organisations considered to be failures of the IOC process and recommendations. According to the Joint Position Statement, the IOC's focus on only one aspect of the human rights analysis meant that it failed to take proper account of "the scientific, biological or medical aspects," in particular that "high testosterone concentrations, either endogenous or exogenous, confer a baseline advantage for athletes in certain sports" such that "it is clear to uphold the integrity and fairness of sport that these baseline advantages of testosterone must be recognized and mitigated."

FINA used the joint statement as a reason to convene their own working group to, "...consider the best available statistical, scientific, and medical evidence concerning sex differences in sports performance, and any associated male sex-based advantage....The working group included (a) an athlete group (Athlete Group), (b) a science and medicine group (Science Group), and (c) a legal and human rights group (Legal and Human Rights Group)."

What is frustrating here is that I wanted to dig into the studies and research, especially from this Science Group. I'm always willing to keep an open mind and learn new things, but this is all you get. Two paragraphs with just about no real data:

The Science Group reported that biological sex is a key determinant of athletic performance, with males outperforming females in sports (including Aquatics sports) that are primarily determined by neuromuscular, cardiovascular, and respiratory function, and anthropometrics including body and limb size. The extent of the male/female performance gap varies by sport and competition, but the gap universally emerges starting from the onset of puberty. The group reported that there are sex-linked biological differences in Aquatics, especially among elite athletes, that are largely the result of the substantially higher levels of testosterone to which males are exposed from puberty onwards. Prior to puberty, testosterone levels are similar in females and males. During puberty, however, testes-derived testosterone concentrations increase 20-fold in males, while testosterone concentrations remain low in females so that post-pubescent males have circulating testosterone concentrations at least 15 times higher than post-pubescent females (15-20 nmol/L in adult males versus c.1 nmol/L in typical females of any age). High testosterone levels generate not only anatomical divergence in the reproductive system but also measurably different body types/compositions between sexes.

According to the Science Group, if gender-affirming male-to-female transition consistent with the medical standard of care is initiated after the onset of puberty, it will blunt some, but not all, of the effects of testosterone on body structure, muscle function, and other determinants of performance, but there will be persistent legacy effects that will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological
females. A biological female athlete cannot overcome that advantage through training or nutrition. Nor can they take additional testosterone to obtain the same advantage, because testosterone is a prohibited substance under the World Anti-Doping Code.

Open and shut case! No need for them to provide receipts of any kind. We're at four pages. That's all it took for them to make their case, while dedicating only two paragraphs to actual science and evidence. The rest is simply laying out the policy itself. Sure hope those 4 pages sold you on why what they're doing isn't fucked. The new policy from FINA then has the nerve to say they want to, "...to provide a clear, fair, respectful, and confidential process by which athletes may establish their eligibility for FINA competitions" while a few sentences later stating you need to certify your chromosomal sex and prove you've not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2.

I could go on, but I've run out of energy. The policy is just shit, and they provided no evidence that I can find to support their new stance outside of, "we have science people who told us science stuff." They blasted a policy for being too focused on human rights, then released a policy almost entirely devoid of concern around human rights.
 
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Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,970
I'm so fucking exhausted of this shit. Science is on our side, yet it means nothing when we just get banned and our rights taken anyways.

And in pride month. This really isn't a coincidence.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,500
I'm not sure what the alternative to the binary issue, though, besides just letting men and women compete at all levels. It feels like some unscrupulous country would use this (if there were no regulations at all but the sports were still separated) as a loophole to get ahead, especially places where athletes are picked from near birth to compete.

Agreed that people cheering this on are crap, though.

That's not a solution. It would just shut women out of most sports.
 

heathen earth

Member
Mar 21, 2020
2,007
I'm so fucking exhausted of this shit. Science is on our side, yet it means nothing when we just get banned and our rights taken anyways.

And in pride month. This really isn't a coincidence.
It's just so so tiring. Like how do you summon the energy to continue fighting in the face of all this? It feels like hate always wins.
 

Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
It's definitely based on politics and prejudice not science, but that won't stop bigots, JAQoffers and even a few confused people to actually parrot that there is science even though their ruling and study doesn't actually outline anything and the IOC ruling is based on what science has been done. Confirmation bias and all that...
 

Silvon

Member
Mar 18, 2018
110
The decision, decided by 71% of the vote of 152 national federations at the world championships in Budapest, followed a report from a Fina scientific panel that found trans women retained a significant advantage over cisgender female swimmers even after reducing their testosterone levels through medication.

Is there any tldr on this report?
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
Oh, they'll just continue to completely ignore the existence of trans men.

I hope all you bigots are satisfied. You've succeeded.

This is terrible and rather hypocritical of them.

I assume you're asking a hypothetical question, given we all already know how the world ignores trans men and likes to pretend they don't exist.

Yes it is a hypothetical, I'm trying to get a better understanding of this issue. So to clarify for my own sake,when people say they ignore Trans men, are they then viewing them as women still, only they are "cross dressing", or do they just ignore the fact they were born biologically as a female sex and just go on the idea they are male in all ways?

I doubt it. They would basically be torpedoing their entire stance based around alleged competitive advantage if they excluded trans men from competing in the men's division.

So do they assume that a trans man will never win first place? If so then that is insanity on so many levels given the skill, speed and stroke of the swimmer, since that's how you win a race to my knowledge.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
Yes it is a hypothetical, I'm trying to get a better understanding of this issue. So to clarify for my own sake,when people say they ignore Trans men, are they then viewing them as women still, only they are "cross dressing", or do they just ignore the fact they were born biologically as a female sex and just go on the idea they are male in all ways?

When the discussion of gender identity and trans people come up, it regularly ignores trans men. Obviously the bigots/transphobes don't consider them an "actual man", but acknowledging them destroys a lot of their arguments.

Most (All?) transphboic arguments are born out of misogyny and sexism in some way or another. So if they can't frame an argument against trans men that makes it misogynic, they tend not to. That's why all the news stories are about trans women and trans girls.
 

FreddieQuell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
92
Yes it is a hypothetical, I'm trying to get a better understanding of this issue. So to clarify for my own sake,when people say they ignore Trans men, are they then viewing them as women still, only they are "cross dressing", or do they just ignore the fact they were born biologically as a female sex and just go on the idea they are male in all ways?



So do they assume that a trans man will never win first place? If so then that is insanity on so many levels given the skill, speed and stroke of the swimmer, since that's how you win a race to my knowledge.

I assume what they do is, they don't believe Trans men have any biological advantage over men born biologically as a male sex. Therefore they have no need to ban them from competition.
 
Dec 30, 2020
15,281
Great, and next these assholes are going to go after any champion they deem is "too masculine looking" like they've done in the past.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,190
I assume what they do is, they don't believe Trans men have any biological advantage over men born biologically as a male sex. Therefore they have no need to ban them from competition.

this was my thought as well, are there sports where a Trans man would have a significant advantage or even a perceived advantage?
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
When the discussion of gender identity and trans people come up, it regularly ignores trans men. Obviously the bigots/transphobes don't consider them an "actual man", but acknowledging them destroys a lot of their arguments.

Most (All?) transphboic arguments are born out of misogyny and sexism in some way or another. So if they can't frame an argument against trans men that makes it misogynic, they tend not to. That's why all the news stories are about trans women and trans girls.

I assume what they do is, they don't believe Trans men have any biological advantage over men born biologically as a male sex. Therefore they have no need to ban them from competition.

This explains a lot to me. Thank you both for taking the time to talk about it. I have to wonder if a trans man won in competition if there would be up ticks of news similar to Trans women and banning them too. Or would it just not matter?
 

ShadowAUS

Member
Feb 20, 2019
2,109
Australia
Has anyone found if the study they're basing this policy on was published? I can find no actual numbers or well... science to back up this decision - they've only released the policy document as far as I can see.

I would be curious to read their results, as well as their methodology.
 

Android Sophia

The Absolute Sword
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
This explains a lot to me. Thank you both for taking the time to talk about it. I have to wonder if a trans man won in competition if there would be up ticks of news similar to Trans women and banning them too. Or would it just not matter?

This is from 2017, but we basically already know the answer. They pretty much ignore it when trans men/trans boys win in the girls sections that they're forced to participate in.
 

SAINT_

Banned
Oct 4, 2020
460
Oh, they'll just continue to completely ignore the existence of trans men.

I hope all you bigots are satisfied. You've succeeded.
Has a trans man ever won something on the level of an NCAA championship? I think that's the reason why a lot of people aren't worried about them, they don't see trans men as a threat to men's sports :/

If other sports are using testosterone levels, why doesn't FINA? And is using testosterone levels also controversial?
Because FINA is basically saying that trans women who went through male puberty will always have an advantaged over cis women no matter what. I would really like to see the data they studied that made them come to this conclusion.