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Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
Has a trans man ever won something on the level of an NCAA championship? I think that's the reason why a lot of people aren't worried about them, they don't see trans men as a threat to men's sports :/
No it's has nothing to do with just sports. 95% of anti-trans arguments and the beliefs and bullet points they use to justify transphobia fall apart if they allow for the existence of trans men. For instance Bathroom bills are based around "trans women are not real just perverts invading womens spaces to rape them or abuse them" leading to bills saying you have to use the bathroom of biological birth sex. Which means trans men would have to use woman's bathrooms. Which would scare most women more if they saw a trans man especially since trans men seem to pass easier than trans women. So they just pretend trans men don't exist. That's just one example.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
www.bbc.co.uk

Coe hints athletics may follow swimming's trans ban

World Athletics president Lord Coe hints the sport could follow swimming in banning transgender women from elite female competitions, insisting "fairness is non-negotiable".
"We've always tried to find a navigable way through. We haven't wanted to stigmatise," said Lord Coe, who was in Budapest as a guest of Fina as it made its decision at an extraordinary general congress at the weekend.

"But when push comes to shove, if it's a judgement between inclusion and fairness, we will always fall down on the side of fairness - that for me is non-negotiable."
"The integrity of women's sport is really, really important here, and we can't have a generation of young girls thinking there is not a future for them in the sport. So we have a responsibility…maintaining the primacy and the integrity of female competition is absolutely vital, and that's why we were at the forefront of tabling those regulations that allow as close as you can get to a level playing field."
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
*shakes head*
www.theguardian.com

Coe hints athletics may bar transgender women from female competition

Sebastian Coe suggested his sport may follow swimming’s lead, saying ‘biology trumps gender’ and World Athletics’ policies will reflect this
As expected... FINA shit all over IOC's framework in a way that emboldens other organizations to follow in their footsteps. Expect less data and less science as each subsequent organization will piggyback off the previous one's shoddy findings.

Has anyone found if the study they're basing this policy on was published? I can find no actual numbers or well... science to back up this decision - they've only released the policy document as far as I can see.

I would be curious to read their results, as well as their methodology.
I spent quite a long time looking and can't find anything.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
FINA ruling based on 'opinion not science', Australian researchers say

"We actually don't know if there's a biological advantage for trans women over cisgender women because the science is not clear," Cheung, who leads the Trans Health Research program, in partnership with the University of Melbourne said.

"FINA's report is really based on a group of people's opinion, it's not a gold standard. No research has really been done into trans female swimmers or any elite athletes that are transgender. The jury is out."

It's a longer article, but worth the read.
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,987
www.resetera.com

ITT let’s commit to and reflect on doing at least 1 quantifiable significant pro-trans action this Pride Month

I had this idea for this thread because I found a pride shirt I absolutely adore. With Texas thinking about banning drag shows for kids, but not AR-15s, and with trans kids being targeted by CPS and Abbott’s new order, it’s more important than ever this pride month to do something pro-trans...

Just promoting my thread about doing pro-trans actions this Pride Month. So much evil in this world. Please consider doing something positive for the trans community this month in light of news like this
 

Geode

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,460
*shakes head* Why does this world continue to fuck up?

I'm not sure what the alternative to the binary issue, though, besides just letting men and women compete at all levels. It feels like some unscrupulous country would use this (if there were no regulations at all but the sports were still separated) as a loophole to get ahead, especially places where athletes are picked from near birth to compete.

Agreed that people cheering this on are crap, though.

Something tells me they may try to push trans only sports or something.
 

turtle553

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,227
There seem to be some biological differences in how lung capacity develops between sexes that diverge during puberty generally leaving males with greater capacity. But I don't think there's a difference in any technique in male vs female swimming with holding breath. Hopefully with more people transitioning younger and in general, there can be studies done to clear up if any advantages exist besides just in testosterone levels.
 

Supreme Bean

Banned
May 28, 2022
274
I assume what they do is, they don't believe Trans men have any biological advantage over men born biologically as a male sex. Therefore they have no need to ban them from competition.
Are there any high level trans men athletes?

I'm curious about the legality in sports of taking testosterone supplements? Is it the case that trans men would fail doping requirements because of the testosterone?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,921
I'm curious about the legality in sports of taking testosterone supplements? Is it the case that trans men would fail doping requirements because of the testosterone?
Testosterone (and anything that mimics its effect) is an explicitly banned substance though I believe trans men in the process of transitioning can apply for a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) in advance of their treatment.
 

Aya

Member
Rugby league joins swimming in barring transgender women from female international competition

Following Monday's announcement that Fina has effectively banned transgender women from competing at elite female swimming events, the International Rugby League (IRL) has decided to preclude athletes who have transitioned from male to female from international competition.
The IRL said in a statement that further consultation and research was needed before it could finalise its policy, but in the meantime, the ruling means that trans athletes will not be able to play in this weekend's Test matches or at the Women's Rugby League World Cup later this year.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
Sports, gyms, changing rooms, toilets. The latter two work to restrict trans women in shops, public facilities and the workplace as well. The end goal is, and has been, the removal of trans people from society. First visibly, then through access to transition and healthcare. We are seeing both efforts in full swing now and far too many people are comfortable coasting on this tide of fascism thinking it won't impact them the closer it gets to shore.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
www.thetimes.co.uk

Rugby League bans transgender athletes from women’s internationals

World Athletics appear likely to follow swimming in imposing a ban on transgender athletes from elite women’s races with federation president Seb Coe stressing that “biology trumps gender” when it comes to fairness in competition.
World Athletics is likely to follow rugby league and swimming in imposing a ban on transgender athletes from elite women's races, with its president, Lord Coe, stressing that "biology trumps gender" when it comes to fairness in competition.

Football's world governing body, Fifa, is also considering following the international swimming federation Fina's new policy, which states that anyone who has gone through male puberty cannot take part in female competitions regardless of whether they have transitioned to become a woman.
 

Amalthea

Member
Dec 22, 2017
5,683
Ironic how influential old men only care about women rights when they can fuck over a marginalized group at the same time. When it's about reproductive rights, equal pay, rape, abuse or trafficking issues they either don't care or are even against giving women equal or special rights.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
As expected. These groups are going to fall in line and piggyback off of one another. Didn't expect it so fast though:

Rugby league joins swimming in barring transgender women from female international competition

The IRL said in a statement that further consultation and research was needed before it could finalise its policy, but in the meantime, the ruling means that trans athletes will not be able to play in this weekend's Test matches or at the Women's Rugby League World Cup later this year.

The IRL said it intended to canvass the opinions of the eight teams who will contest November's tournament in England to collect data that will inform a trans women inclusion policy in the future.

Probably deserves it's own thread. I'll make tonight if no one else has by then.
 

Humidex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,220
In better news over in Germany...
www.theguardian.com

Transgender footballers in Germany can choose men’s or women’s team

The German football federation has passed a rule allowing transgender, intersex and non-binary players to decide whether to play in men’s or women’s teams
"Experience has shown that this does not jeopardize the integrity of the competition," the DFB said. "After all, all people have different physical strengths and abilities that only lead to success together in a team, regardless of gender."
 

LauraLaMer

Banned
Dec 5, 2021
1,170
In better news over in Germany...
www.theguardian.com

Transgender footballers in Germany can choose men’s or women’s team

The German football federation has passed a rule allowing transgender, intersex and non-binary players to decide whether to play in men’s or women’s teams
That feels unhealthy in the opposite direction. Probably apples to oranges, but a sub-200 male tennis player was able to easily best both of the Williams sisters. The IOC guidelines about ensuring fairness still seem the best to me.
 

Haunted

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,737
In better news over in Germany...
www.theguardian.com

Transgender footballers in Germany can choose men’s or women’s team

The German football federation has passed a rule allowing transgender, intersex and non-binary players to decide whether to play in men’s or women’s teams
That's awesome. Doesn't surprise me either, since we regularly see mixed teams here (although often for practical reasons and in lower level competition, but still). Good on the DFB to counter these announcements with their own.

If fucking FIFA will allow something like this on the highest level is a different matter altogether, though.
 

Haunted

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,737
That feels unhealthy in the opposite direction. Probably apples to oranges, but a sub-200 male tennis player was able to easily best both of the Williams sisters. The IOC guidelines about ensuring fairness still seem the best to me.
Tennis as an individual sport and football as a team sport are pretty different, yeah.
 

Kanhir

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,891
That feels unhealthy in the opposite direction. Probably apples to oranges, but a sub-200 male tennis player was able to easily best both of the Williams sisters. The IOC guidelines about ensuring fairness still seem the best to me.
Definitely apples to oranges. In a team sport like football, where every player has their strengths and weaknesses and everything relies on coming together as a unit, one player doesn't swing the balance. If that was the case, Argentina and Portugal would be winning much more than they actually do.
 

Mr Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,747
I'm not sure what the alternative to the binary issue, though, besides just letting men and women compete at all levels. It feels like some unscrupulous country would use this (if there were no regulations at all but the sports were still separated) as a loophole to get ahead, especially places where athletes are picked from near birth to compete.

Agreed that people cheering this on are crap, though.

I'd like to know what a solution to this is, as well. Your genetics are going to come into play when it comes to sports. Even if you transition. So what is the fix?
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
A good piece from Jonathan Liew in the Guardian (which I know has published rubbish before on the same issue):
www.theguardian.com

Nadine Dorries offers the illusion of easy choices while trans athletes pay the price | Jonathan Liew

A powerful movement extending far beyond judo or swimming is framing trans people as aggressors and frauds
For trans athletes this is a deliberately hostile landscape, deriving from the basic bad-faith presumption that the trans person can never be who they say they are. They must be framed as aggressors, frauds, cheats, violators. They must be subjected to snide jokes and base insults about genitalia. These are not the hallmarks of a rational, evidence-based agenda. Rather, they are the tell of a cause that – for all those on both sides of the debate who genuinely repudiate the above – has long been hijacked by a dangerous political fringe, preoccupied by fear and control, power and opportunism.
And then what? Once the trans women have been purged from sport, does all that energy and toxicity simply evaporate? Or does it move on to the next target, push the window a little further? Many of the arguments being used against trans women from sport can easily be repurposed to ban them from gyms, swimming pools, classrooms, medical settings, the military. A recent bill in the Republican-controlled Ohio state legislature called the "Save Women's Sport Act" could force teenage girls to undergo an invasive genital examination to prove they are not trans. Meanwhile 375 trans people were murdered in 2021. Anyone else think this ends with the 100m freestyle?
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
Transgender athletes: Tom Daley 'furious' about Fina ban



www.smh.com.au

FINA ruling based on ‘opinion not science’, Australian researchers say

A decision to effectively ban transgender women from elite level international competition is based on ‘opinion not science’, Australian researchers warn.

is the research they're basing this off publicly available? if so, does anyone have a link to a credible summary?
Vincent Alexander did a great job breaking down the ruling on post #31 if that's of interest.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
Show me the evidence that trans women are taking everyone's scholarships, are dominating in every sport, are winning every title. I'm sorry, it's just not happening. So we need to start from inclusion, period. And as things arise, I have confidence that we can figure it out. But we can't start at the opposite. That is cruel. And frankly, it's just disgusting.
So, we need to really kind of take a step back and get a grip on what we're really talking about here because people's lives are at risk. Kids' lives are at risk with the rates of suicide, the rates of depression and negative mental health and drug abuse. We're putting everything through God forbid a trans person be successful in sports. Get a grip on reality and take a step back.
time.com

Megan Rapinoe Discusses Title IX, Transgender Sports Bans

Leadership lessons from the U.S. soccer star.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,459
Transgender athletes: Tom Daley 'furious' about Fina ban



www.smh.com.au

FINA ruling based on ‘opinion not science’, Australian researchers say

A decision to effectively ban transgender women from elite level international competition is based on ‘opinion not science’, Australian researchers warn.


Vincent Alexander did a great job breaking down the ruling on post #31 if that's of interest.


Yeah, this is fucked. So this new policy is spitting in the face of the International Olympic Committee's new guidance they released titled Framework on Fairness, Inclusion and Non-discrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations from November 2021.

IOC gives sports new guidance on transgender athlete rules


If you want to read it in full, it's rather short. The presentation can be found here. Some key principles from the presentation are below. When reading, keep in mind things like how in 2003, the IOC officially allowed transgender athletes to compete, but only if they underwent sex reassignment surgery. This requirement wasn't removed until 2015:

Some key principles:
  • Fairness. Eligibility criteria should aim to : Ensure fairness. Prevent risk to physical safety. Prevent cheating by athletes who abuse inclusion rule.
  • No Presumption of Advantage. Athletes should not make assumptions based on how athletes look. Criteria should be based on evidence.
  • Evidence Based. Restrictions to competition should be based on robust, credible research. Sports organizations should follow criteria to prove that a disproportionate advantage orc safety risks exist
  • Primacy of Health. Athletes should not be pressured to undergo medically unnecessary procedures or treatment. Criteria should not include invasive examinations to their bodies
  • Stakholder Centered. Sports organizations should consult with athletes when setting criteria.Decisions that affect athletes should be fair, neutral and impartial. Athletes should have safe ways to raise concerns and grievances.
  • Privacy. Sports organizations should preserve the privacy of athletes. Compliance with privacy laws when handling information. Requiring informed consent from athletes to collecting personal data.
  • Periodic Review. Eligibility criteria should be subject to review as new developments arise.
The biggest problem with the IOC framework is that they're really just guidelines and they make clear, "the IOC offers guidance to International Federations on how to design eligibility criteria that work for their own sport/context, while considering fairness, inclusion and non-discrimination." I don't know if the IOC has the power to actually enforce anything to groups like FINA, but because they didn't we now get FINA's new document and policy that pretty much spits in the face of the IOC.

Now to jump through FINA's new policy and pick out some quotes. First off, they are clearly unhappy with IOC's framework. We get this early on:


What IOC actually said seems reasonable. "There is an unclear role of testosterone alone in predicting performance across all sports." They want organizations to move away from a one-size fits all approach. Of course, there is so much more than just this in the IOC guidelines, but it is what gets hyper-focused below---



FINA used the joint statement as a reason to convene their own working group to, "...consider the best available statistical, scientific, and medical evidence concerning sex differences in sports performance, and any associated male sex-based advantage....The working group included (a) an athlete group (Athlete Group), (b) a science and medicine group (Science Group), and (c) a legal and human rights group (Legal and Human Rights Group)."

What is frustrating here is that I wanted to dig into the studies and research, especially from this Science Group. I'm always willing to keep an open mind and learn new things, but this is all you get. Two paragraphs with just about no real data:



Open and shut case! No need for them to provide receipts of any kind. We're at four pages. That's all it took for them to make their case, while dedicating only two paragraphs to actual science and evidence. The rest is simply laying out the policy itself. Sure hope those 4 pages sold you on why what they're doing isn't fucked. The new policy from FINA then has the nerve to say they want to, "...to provide a clear, fair, respectful, and confidential process by which athletes may establish their eligibility for FINA competitions" while a few sentences later stating you need to certify your chromosomal sex and prove you've not experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2.

I could go on, but I've run out of energy. The policy is just shit, and they provided no evidence that I can find to support their new stance outside of, "we have science people who told us science stuff." They blasted a policy for being too focused on human rights, then released a policy almost entirely devoid of concern around human rights.
thank you both. quoting for the new page.
 

Psittacus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,933
It's very telling that all the people on Twitter who are happy about this decision are also upset at the implication that trans kids might get access to puberty blockers. It was never about the integrity of women's sports.
 

Lowrys

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,398
London
It's very telling that all the people on Twitter who are happy about this decision are also upset at the implication that trans kids might get access to puberty blockers. It was never about the integrity of women's sports.
Exactly. It's about sustained denial of the rights and even existence of trans people, using sports as an "easier" wedge case first, and then rolling out their same horrible views and "logic" to every other area of society and life.