Back in the day I felt bad for the Wachowskis who were probably trying very hard to complete the Matrix trilogy in a novel way that was not predicted by the millions of fan theories.
They failed to satisfy...
They failed to satisfy...
They're a good example too. To their credit, they followed their vision. It was unsatisfying for many but its clearly their own.Back in the day I felt bad for the Wachowskis who were probably trying very hard to complete the Matrix trilogy in a novel way that was not predicted by the millions of fan theories.
They failed to satisfy...
Well it does illuminate some parts of their storytelling style, so in a way it's one of their better twists.
Dany turns seems like DD and GRRM knew day 1.It wasn't out of nowhere. Dany over the last 2 seasons has pretty openly indicated that she wanted to go into Kings Landing guns blazing. Then she finally got her chance and felt cheated out of it.
Plus, as a reminder, as early as season 2 Dany was openly touting stuff like "When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground" and "I will take what is mine with fire and blood". Dany destroying Kings Landing sure seems like it was always in her mind.
Yup, the problem with Dany's heel turn wasn't that it was subversion or shock value stuff it was just rushed (like everything else this season)Dany turns seems like DD and GRRM knew day 1.
I don't think DD were trying to subvert expectations or shock value, they just rushed and condensed her final turn to madness cause they want to work on something else
Well, except for caging her dragons for a season because they killed one shepherd's kid.
Regardless, I think it's incorrect to say that "this is who Dany was all along" because it's quite clear the show wants you to believe she's now crazy, which she wasn't before.
Crazy is not the cannon explanation, not even by the writers. They say it was due to a feeling of abject loneliness and a desire for revenge (idiotic). Crazy is the explanation of fans who fully bought into Dany being a benevolent hero because it's the only way to reconcile how you believe she was with what she is now while both remain true. I don't think the show wants you to believe this at all -- again, the writers have provided a different explanation -- rather, the show has simply failed to, in any way, convey a proper logical reasoning for what she's done. You have to take a leap of faith to get to any rational explanation.
But there is a way to reconcile her action with her past. You just have to realize that you (general you) were wrong about Dany in the past. When you believed that she was a benevolent hero who cared for the little people, you were wrong. She performed benevolent actions for narcissistic purposes.
I'm not saying Dany is all bad. She did, as you pointed out, lock away her dragons. But when she did so, she didn't need them. I'd not say that single acts should be given as comprehensive evidence of anything. Rather, as a whole, an especially in consideration of the previous episode, the idea that she was only benevolent when it furthered her interests and mainly that she is full of rage and lust for power fits the vast majority of her actions. Her being a benevolent hero does not, and that's true even without last week's episode.
I fundamentally believe that The Last Jedi is not a movie trying to subvert your expectations and is not a movie trying to outsmart its audience. But it is a movie with a very specific vision of Star Wars and what Star Wars can be, and unfortunately, that will result in the catastrophic alienation of everyone with a different perspective. There is a version of The Last Jedi that makes more of an effort to please the entire audience, one that I would likely enjoy too. But we didn't get that version, and I think I'm glad we didn't.
I think saying 'mad all along' is a misrepresentation of what the argument actually is. Not mad as insane and crazy, it's her ruthlessness and her desire for the iron throne and above that vengeance for past perceived wrongs to her family namesake. She hokds those at her very core more so than her love for her people and desire to do good in the world. If she valued them that much she would not have set sail for Westeros.Exactly, people that are going "Dany was mad all along" ignore that even in the last episode she went crazy because genetics, they even spelled it out loud, whatever previous personality she had in the show doesn't matter, she suddenly snapped because "Targaryens"
I haven't seen the inside the episode as I never watch them as they always come off like idiots, so if that's really the explanation they use in it fair enough, but I'd argue the episodes this season (and last) have explicitly and implicitly drawn many direct parallels to the Mad King while referencing Targ madness in general, so formalistically I'd have to say crazy is still the best explanation.
That's not to say seeds weren't sewn throughout the show that she had the potential to fall to the dark side as it were, but even those seeds aren't enough to explain massacre of civilians after the battle was already won.
So yeah, crazy's all I got there.
On the contrary, movies always try to kill the bad guy every single time. Killing thanos early pushed the movie to the most boring plot to bring the gems back causing paradoxes everycorner.
Leaving thanos alive would lead to a different, complex writing buuuut since we dont have Adam warlock or any other holder who would lend the gems easily the writing was down to "no more gems go for other gems"
On the contrary, movies always try to kill the bad guy every single time. Killing thanos early pushed the movie to the most boring plot to bring the gems back causing paradoxes everycorner.
Leaving thanos alive would lead to a different, complex writing buuuut since we dont have Adam warlock or any other holder who would lend the gems easily the writing was down to "no more gems go for other gems"
I think the Dany turn should've been subverted. Not for shock value, just because it's more powerful. They should've shown her getting to the edge of madness, then just had her say, "Fuck this. I don't want to be the Queen," then just had her bounce.
Oh okay. I haven't read the books, but I like that approach more. Because all of it just seems so fucking pointless lol. Power for the sake of power.That's basically what happened book version of the fighting pits scene in ADWD.
GOT spoilers...
I agree with everything you wrote but this:
Having just finished a full rewatch of the series a couple weeks ago, I can confidently say that you're right about one thing: GRRM did a fantastic job tricking everyone into believing what the characters thought about themselves. As early as Season 1 when she burns the witch alive, Dany has exhibited a nearly uncontrollable and irrational rage. As early as Season 1 when she tells Drogo to get her the throne, she has exhibited a narcissistic attitude wherein she deserves the love and adoration of the people by virtue of her birthright alone.
Dany has never shown that she cares about the common people. Yes, she cares greatly about freeing the slaves -- she was a slave once and the slaves adore her for it. Yes, she is enraged when the masters crucify the children. Dany and her advisors attribute this care and rage to her desire to protect everyone. They describe her as someone who is caring and benevolent. GRRM tricks the audience by telling one plausible explanation and so no one notices when they are shown an alternative, plausible explanation. Dany is not benevolent and caring, she believes she deserves the throne over all others and she believes her authority should not be questioned. She will happily kill anyone and did massacre people by the 1000's simply because they dare to take a different point of view.
So when Dany gets to Kings Landing, she is there to punish those who would not stand behind her. If the people went into the city to flee her, they did not believe in her and therefore deserve to die in her mind. And so she kills them.
Now don't get me wrong, the post-episode behind the scenes illustrates that the showrunners/writers had no idea what they were doing or why, but the action itself is supported by Dany's character and actions from the very beginning. We know GRRM gave the writers a brief version of what he expected to happen to the characters. Presumably, Dany obliterating Kings Landing with innocents inside was one of those things. The writers followed orders, but they failed to understand why. Thus, what should have been another Red Wedding-calibur shock followed by revelation that we'd missed everything the whole time instead fell flat and appeared to be wholly inconsistent.
So the writers did fail us here. But the actual action was not the problem -- it was the reason why.
To add, GRRM is responsible for Dany developing this way, D&D simply failed to execute on it to where the doubt in people's minds that she was really benevolent or narcissistic would take hold. What we get is some people piece it together easily enough, some can see the direction but want more buildup, and a lot of people are left completely shocked because they were allowed to completely believe Dany was just a well meaning savior all along.
Couldnt say it any better than this concerning the Dany turn. She was always had this potential in her and it was very subtly seeded across the series. Almost too subtly. And then they rushed through the payoff because they wanted to get to Star Wars.Crazy is not the cannon explanation, not even by the writers. They say it was due to a feeling of abject loneliness and a desire for revenge (idiotic). Crazy is the explanation of fans who fully bought into Dany being a benevolent hero because it's the only way to reconcile how you believe she was with what she is now while both remain true. I don't think the show wants you to believe this at all -- again, the writers have provided a different explanation -- rather, the show has simply failed to, in any way, convey a proper logical reasoning for what she's done. You have to take a leap of faith to get to any rational explanation.
But there is a way to reconcile her action with her past. You just have to realize that you (general you) were wrong about Dany in the past. When you believed that she was a benevolent hero who cared for the little people, you were wrong. She performed benevolent actions for narcissistic purposes.
I'm not saying Dany is all bad. She did, as you pointed out, lock away her dragons. But when she did so, she didn't need them. I'd not say that single acts should be given as comprehensive evidence of anything. Rather, as a whole, an especially in consideration of the previous episode, the idea that she was only benevolent when it furthered her interests and mainly that she is full of rage and lust for power fits the vast majority of her actions. Her being a benevolent hero does not, and that's true even without last week's episode.
Still catching up on season 8, but was spoiled on Dany's turn already.GOT spoilers...
I agree with everything you wrote but this:
Having just finished a full rewatch of the series a couple weeks ago, I can confidently say that you're right about one thing: GRRM did a fantastic job tricking everyone into believing what the characters thought about themselves. As early as Season 1 when she burns the witch alive, Dany has exhibited a nearly uncontrollable and irrational rage. As early as Season 1 when she tells Drogo to get her the throne, she has exhibited a narcissistic attitude wherein she deserves the love and adoration of the people by virtue of her birthright alone.
Dany has never shown that she cares about the common people. Yes, she cares greatly about freeing the slaves -- she was a slave once and the slaves adore her for it. Yes, she is enraged when the masters crucify the children. Dany and her advisors attribute this care and rage to her desire to protect everyone. They describe her as someone who is caring and benevolent. GRRM tricks the audience by telling one plausible explanation and so no one notices when they are shown an alternative, plausible explanation. Dany is not benevolent and caring, she believes she deserves the throne over all others and she believes her authority should not be questioned. She will happily kill anyone and did massacre people by the 1000's simply because they dare to take a different point of view.
So when Dany gets to Kings Landing, she is there to punish those who would not stand behind her. If the people went into the city to flee her, they did not believe in her and therefore deserve to die in her mind. And so she kills them.
Now don't get me wrong, the post-episode behind the scenes illustrates that the showrunners/writers had no idea what they were doing or why, but the action itself is supported by Dany's character and actions from the very beginning. We know GRRM gave the writers a brief version of what he expected to happen to the characters. Presumably, Dany obliterating Kings Landing with innocents inside was one of those things. The writers followed orders, but they failed to understand why. Thus, what should have been another Red Wedding-calibur shock followed by revelation that we'd missed everything the whole time instead fell flat and appeared to be wholly inconsistent.
So the writers did fail us here. But the actual action was not the problem -- it was the reason why.
When I saw the GoT writers say on "Inside the Episode" they wanted Arya to kill the NK because they "had hoped to avoid the expected," I actually face palmed.
Good post op.
The funniest thing about the GoT criticism on this forum is that the same people grilling the writing are some of the same one's praising the show in the casting thread and the Miguel Cinematography thread. People assume disliking the writing suddenly means they are saying nothing about the show is redeemable.
It's unfortunate because writing is where many want to connect with the show. It's the heart of it all and it's all a mess.
Bran's gonna wheelchair his ass to King's Landing and stab Dany right in the butt. Nobody will expect it.
Breaking Bad ending was weak imo. using the nazis who Walt had happily used to do his dirty work as the last bosses to make him look good in comparison was tacky.
How it should have ended is his entire family getting taken out by the cartels and him having to live with that in isolation.
The only show that got it right ending was was the Shield. Vic escapes but has to live with his consequences from his colleagues and loses his family and any respect he had
They've lost their way around the middle, but the ending was everything I didn't know I wanted. It was a smarter conclusion than the series seemed to deserve after the first movie ended with the "yo, I will smash that computer" tough guy posturing.Back in the day I felt bad for the Wachowskis who were probably trying very hard to complete the Matrix trilogy in a novel way that was not predicted by the millions of fan theories.
They failed to satisfy...
Hey, HBO has great variety of excellent shows. One doesn't need more than HBO subscription to fill all their TV show needs. Though admittedly HBO Nordic does have many of the best non-HBO originals too, so that might colour my opinion a bit. But for the best crime drama you go Wire, best comedy you go Curb Your Enthusiasm, best western you go Deadwood, best fantasy you go Game of Thrones and so on =POriginal poster, it really does seem as if you're obsessed with a few very popular television dramas. I think I counted two HBO shows there and one AMC show. Do please expand your range of viewing.
I'm not saying Dany is all bad. She did, as you pointed out, lock away her dragons. But when she did so, she didn't need them. I'd not say that single acts should be given as comprehensive evidence of anything. Rather, as a whole, an especially in consideration of the previous episode, the idea that she was only benevolent when it furthered her interests and mainly that she is full of rage and lust for power fits the vast majority of her actions. Her being a benevolent hero does not, and that's true even without last week's episode.