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Oct 29, 2017
5,299
Minnesota
Try number like seven or some bullshit

Dear [agent]


Call Isabelle a pirate, and she'll call you a liar. She's a businesswoman. Yes, her sails are black, and yes, her best arguments are made with a gun, but still, the transactions are fair. There are rules. There is a code. She will not kill unless she needs to. She will not steal homes.


She is not the Navy.


Tortuga is gone. Not destroyed—gone. The Navy came, and when they left, an entire island was missing from the sky. Piracy is no more. However, in their haste for justice, the Navy forgot something, an unassuming silver honeycomb with bronze gears. First it buzzes, and then it makes everything break.


It is the most powerful weapon in all the floating isles of Ventum.


Adrift aboard her ship and low on fuel, Isabelle struggles with the loss of her home. She wants revenge, but she needs to protect her crew more. However, she soon realizes the Navy's justice is far from over, and if they aren't stopped, all of Ventum will suffer. Because these new weapons do more than sink islands and break ships. There's a snowstorm in the middle of summer, and the rain no longer drifts with the wind. The water smells like acid.


Isabelle is not the Navy, but she might have to become them if she wants to save her crew from their new weapons.


STORMBREATHER is a dieselpunk adventure novel with hints of science fiction and fantasy. It measures 93,000 words.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
Hey folks, I've got a short story I'm currently trying to get beta readers for. Its a fantasy story a little over 5k words. If ya read it I'll owe you a read! If you're interested just let me know either here or via PM. Thanks in advance those who take the time to read.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
My editors have now got to the stage where they're asking me to approve cover sketches. I might actually have a release date for this thing in the next couple of months.

Whoo! That's fun stuff. I ended up going crazy and sending over a document with tons of screencaps from Macross, Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, Sandman comics and Ruby Rose just to name a few visual references for the publishers to look over and give to the cover artist.
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
Whoo! That's fun stuff. I ended up going crazy and sending over a document with tons of screencaps from Macross, Ghost in the Shell, Appleseed, Sandman comics and Ruby Rose just to name a few visual references for the publishers to look over and give to the cover artist.
Congrats! That's gotta feel so unreal.
Thanks! It's a weird feeling after over two years working on the thing. I sent a bunch of 19th-century paintings as reference, but mine's more a historical piece.
 

Dervius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,911
UK
I've lurked in this thread for a little while, but I think I'd like to finally participate at least slightly more.

Writing for a long time has been my fantasy vocation. It's so delightfully removed from my day-to-day, an outlet of such raw expression and creativity that I've started to crave with increasing voracity.

I have maybe half a dozen short horror stories in varies levels of incomplete, ranging from faint whispers of ideas to abstract chunks of prose strung together by rambling notes. I'd very much like to finish them, and to continue developing these kinds of stories, and see where that can take me moving forward, I have just lacked the courage.

The problem I've always found is reality tarnishing that perfect fantasy. Being some secretly talented writer hidden away from the world is a seductive and comforting dream until you try to realise it in any capacity. Actually putting word to page means putting yourself out there, making it tangible, opening yourself to criticism and the heretofore unconfirmed reality that it just doesn't work like that.

I haven't wanted to write because I didn't want to expose my inadequacies and shatter my idyllic daydream with inconvenient facts.

This thread however, and all of you contributors within it, has been nothing short of inspirational. The drive and determination, the communal support and the shared celebration of one another's success demonstrated herein seems to have been the great push I needed. I'm going to get over myself and actually start writing, and it's because of you lot.

It'll undoubtedly be rubbish, I will almost certainly get discouraged and curse this very post, this thread and all of you within it but for now at least I'm riding an unprecedented wave of positivity and it's all because of you.

So thank you all for being awesome.
 
OP
OP
weemadarthur

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,602
Welcome Dervius!
When you feel ready for feedback or sprints or other support, people are great here. Let us know what you need and we'll offer it, at whatever level you're ready for.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
It'll undoubtedly be rubbish, I will almost certainly get discouraged and curse this very post, this thread and all of you within it but for now at least I'm riding an unprecedented wave of positivity and it's all because of you.

There's a certain very tiny percentage of aspiring writers who hit a blank page running and are talented right from the start, but the remaining 95% of us aren't like that.

I was reading the biography of J. Michael Straczynski, creator of She-Ra, the animated Ghostbusters, Babylon 5, Sense8, and a ton of comics. He shared an incredible story where, at one point, Harlan Ellison was actually leaving his phone number available in a story, telling people of they wanted to call him, they could. So young Straczynski fortified himself, and made the call. He asked Ellison for advice because his stuff, at the time, wasn't selling and Ellison said something to the effect of:

"If it's not selling it's because it's shit, and people don't want to buy it. Just keep writing, and one day you'll write something that's not shit, and when it's not shit, people will buy that. So just get to the point where you don't write shit."

It seems like mean-spirited advice, but it's true of any art, there's a practice component involved. Just imagine that you're learning how to play the piano or the guitar, or taking up water color painting for the first time. The only difference is, people can't immediately hear or see how bad you are with writing, at a glance it looks like any other written work until people take the time to read it. A lot of people make the huge mistake of assuming that just because you can open a word processor and start banging away at the keys, writing is somehow easier than learning to dance, or playing a musical instrument, or even taking up acting. But it's not. There's lots to learn and, more importantly, YOU NEED TIME TO FIND YOUR VOICE.

In the beginning, like with art or music, you should imitate. Find the stuff you like, try to write like that, because obviously it resonates with you for some reason, so that's a good foundation for writing the way you'd like to. Maybe even try fan fiction, if the idea of creating your own characters and plots straight out of the gate is too intimidating. Eventually, however, you'll want to do things your way, with your characters and your style. That's your voice and that's when the hard work of polishing that for publication will begin, if publication is your goal.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,579
In a sense you can rewrite the same book 10 times and then maybe by the time you finish the 10th time it is not shit and you have a best selling book!

Although I would imagine more feedback than yourself would hasten the process.
 

Dervius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,911
UK
Appreciate the welcome, and the great story Shoeless . Harsh but valid advice I imagine.

It's one of these situations where perfect becomes the enemy of good. You want to write, and write well. But it gets to a point where you're so in fear of being terrible or of making mistakes that you end up not really writing at all.

You've gotta push through, keep actually writing and finding your own voice. The fear is real, even when I'm only really interested in doing it for myself. My hope is if I persist and start finishing some of my half produced stories maybe I'll get the courage to show someone, then maybe a few more people (on here or otherwise) and start getting some feedback. Got to grow and develop somehow.

That other people are on here doing the same thing is very encouraging.

I've got half a dozen or so short horror stories that I generally flit between, working in short sprints while the interest is there then moving on to another when it wanes. At the moment I'm reading through some of the resources compiled in the OP in an effort to at least organise my writing better, and try to avoid some of the mistakes that are so easy to make early on.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
Yeah we're all a pretty optimistic bunch over here. That is.... until the rejection letters start pouring in ;_;

Side note: i'm getting more positive reception on a short story than I thought I would so I'll probably start pushing that out onto magazines. It'll be the first time I've tried to sell a fantasy story, so that'll be a new experience.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
Finished rereading a novel I started working on last year and maaaaan 1) Its actually way better than I thought it would be, I actually think my chapters are pretty good and 2) I REALLY WISHED I KEPT UP WITH IT! For real, I'm having a lot of trouble trying to write this next chapter. WOrds are awkward and all the ideas I originally had for it are supes gone. Hopefully after I force my way into a chapter 5, it'll be a bit more smooth sailing.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
I got an acceptance in the mail yesterday for a short story submission to an anthology, so that's a pretty nice thing to look forward to. 2020 is going to an interesting year for me. My debut novel will be out in July, and in October I'm going to try attending my first con as a panelist. Oh, I also did some game-related writing, but I can't disclose more details than that yet.
 
OP
OP
weemadarthur

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,602
Update your author post! With links at the time it is allowable! So we can find it via threadmark.
 
Shoeless’ Goodreads Author Page

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
Update your author post! With links at the time it is allowable! So we can find it via threadmark.

Here's my Goodreads page. I've been super lazy about updating it because the publishers haven't actually started any major promoting yet, that'll be later this year. However, the upcoming book is in there. It's one of those things where fans of the publisher dug around in live web pages that haven't been aggressively pushed yet, so you can already find some info about the upcoming book there. In a few months I'll probably have to be more diligent and actually put in a real author photo and bio and all that other stuff, but since my publisher hasn't officially started promoting the book, I figure I can continue to be lazy and not make it all fixed n' polished just yet.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
I got an acceptance in the mail yesterday for a short story submission to an anthology, so that's a pretty nice thing to look forward to. 2020 is going to an interesting year for me. My debut novel will be out in July, and in October I'm going to try attending my first con as a panelist. Oh, I also did some game-related writing, but I can't disclose more details than that yet.

Holy shit congrats! Sounds like you're geared for an awesome year!! Also I think the panelist thing is nuts. Best of luck with that.
 
OP
OP
weemadarthur

weemadarthur

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,602
And who was it that posted a win in discord? If you want us to highlight it here, post it here too.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
Holy shit congrats! Sounds like you're geared for an awesome year!! Also I think the panelist thing is nuts. Best of luck with that.

Thanks! 2020 is the year I've been waiting for. I also have the good fortune to be living in Canada, so, yeah... I kind'a just watch what's happening in other first world countries and think to myself, "I'm so lucky to be living in a country no one pays attention to."

I may also try to attend WorldCon for the first time in 2021. 2020 is probably a no-go since it's down in Australia and that's a hellacious flight, but 2021 is supposed to be Washington DC, I believe, so... yeah... we'll see how things develop in the USA after November.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,309
THE GRAVITY OF US is his first novel, but he's no stranger to writing. His self-insert Legend of Zelda fanfiction came with a disclaimer from the 14-year old author: "Please if you write a review don't criticize my work." He has since become more open to critique… sort of.

this is inspiring, hopefully like the author my fanfic writing experience will pay off when i make an eventual debut in YA gay fiction
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
THE GRAVITY OF US is his first novel, but he's no stranger to writing. His self-insert Legend of Zelda fanfiction came with a disclaimer from the 14-year old author: "Please if you write a review don't criticize my work." He has since become more open to critique… sort of.

this is inspiring, hopefully like the author my fanfic writing experience will pay off when i make an eventual debut in YA gay fiction
if you keep at it you never know.
I figure you have better odds of having it happen than me.
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,574
Just finished this series of short stories, though, because they're meant to be part of an even larger whole, they don't really stand alone that well (they end in a pretty dire place, but I don't envision that being the *true* ending for the characters involved, if that makes any sense).

First thing I've done in awhile that I think could eventually be publishable with some polish, but it just needs a format that gives it the additional context. Possibly an epilogue. Or a follow-up novel.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
Just finished this series of short stories, though, because they're meant to be part of an even larger whole, they don't really stand alone that well (they end in a pretty dire place, but I don't envision that being the *true* ending for the characters involved, if that makes any sense).

First thing I've done in awhile that I think could eventually be publishable with some polish, but it just needs a format that gives it the additional context. Possibly an epilogue. Or a follow-up novel.

I feel that. I've been going through a lot of old stuff I've written the last two years looking for stuff I think is good enough t stand a chance in the short story markets but it's hard. Especially since I am a bad judge of what stories to go with. Finishing up editing on one later and then gonna throw it out into the world and hope for the best.
 

Alcoremortis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,574
I feel that. I've been going through a lot of old stuff I've written the last two years looking for stuff I think is good enough t stand a chance in the short story markets but it's hard. Especially since I am a bad judge of what stories to go with. Finishing up editing on one later and then gonna throw it out into the world and hope for the best.

The whole set is about 40 pages and while it is kinda sci-fi and features space aliens, I went full pretentious in how the stories relate to one another, doing a sort of Innocence/Experience style of progression. It's probably the closest I've gotten to something written for English majors.

But it doesn't really have a satisfying ending. Maybe it needs a third set.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
An FYI for people interested in short stories:

There's a short story "version" of QueryTracker called Submission Grinder. It's free, and it's a database that lists venues for accepting short stories in different genres and markets, whether that's paid or free. You can open an account and when you do, you can track your own submissions, see how many days it's been, log rejections, all that good stuff that people in the query trenches for books are doing trying to hunt down an agent. It's a good way to stay organized if you're hitting up different markets all at the same time.
 

Dervius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,911
UK
An FYI for people interested in short stories:

There's a short story "version" of QueryTracker called Submission Grinder. It's free, and it's a database that lists venues for accepting short stories in different genres and markets, whether that's paid or free. You can open an account and when you do, you can track your own submissions, see how many days it's been, log rejections, all that good stuff that people in the query trenches for books are doing trying to hunt down an agent. It's a good way to stay organized if you're hitting up different markets all at the same time.

Thanks for this.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,384
Denver, CO
I was flying high due to a pair of (positive) rejections, but haven't heard anything since...which is discouraging. I've sent out about 8 queries in total, about 2 per week for the last month. I have a few questions for anyone familiar with the query process.

First, how long should you wait before you take the L?

Second, if I'm not getting responses, it's obviously a problem with the query at-large. I believe in my actual query, but I get the feeling that my being inexperienced/uncredentialed (and my saying so in the last paragraph) is giving some agents pause. Should I not mention my inexperience? I want to be honest, but not at the sake of representation.

Third, perhaps it's my opening paragraph. For now it's no-nonsense, semi-tailored, and gets to the point, but is that enough?

Thanks!
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
I was flying high a pair of (positive) rejections, but haven't heard anything since...which is discouraging. I've sent out about 8 queries in total, about 2 per week for the last month. I have a few questions for anyone familiar with the query process.

First, how long should you wait before you take the L?

Second, if I'm not getting responses, it's obviously a problem with the query at-large. I believe in my actual query, but I get the feeling that my being inexperienced/uncredentialed (and my saying so in the last paragraph) is giving some agents pause. Should I not mention my inexperience? I want to be honest, but not at the sake of representation.

Third, perhaps it's my opening paragraph. For now it's no-nonsense, semi-tailored, and gets to the point, but is that enough?

Thanks!

1) from what I hear its usually about a 6 month before giving up on people getting back to you, but that obviously depends on who you send it to. Honestly I was kinda shocked you got any response so quickly.

2) maybe? I'm not so sure myself

3) might be but I also don't know what your opening paragraph is in this draft? They're probably reading the whole query tho even if your opening is weak, but I think you have the right idea that if you're not getting responses your query needs to be strengthened.
 

Shoeless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,000
I was flying high a pair of (positive) rejections, but haven't heard anything since...which is discouraging. I've sent out about 8 queries in total, about 2 per week for the last month. I have a few questions for anyone familiar with the query process.

First, how long should you wait before you take the L?

Second, if I'm not getting responses, it's obviously a problem with the query at-large. I believe in my actual query, but I get the feeling that my being inexperienced/uncredentialed (and my saying so in the last paragraph) is giving some agents pause. Should I not mention my inexperience? I want to be honest, but not at the sake of representation.

Third, perhaps it's my opening paragraph. For now it's no-nonsense, semi-tailored, and gets to the point, but is that enough?

Thanks!

1) This depends entirely on the literary agency. I'm assuming you're querying to literary agents? If you're using QueryTracker, then just check each individual agency for their response times. Some of them will have a "If hear nothing from us by 12 weeks, no response means 'no.'" But other agencies will respond to every query they get, it may just take a while. So no hard and fast rule on this one, go by what the agencies submission guidelines state.

2) You don't have to say in the query that you have no experience. You SHOULD mention you have experience if you do, but if you don't, and don't mention it, that's not a red flag for agents. When I was querying, I always mentioned that I had short stories published and had previously been represented, but it's not a deal-breaker if you don't list anything like that.

3) This also depends a lot on the individual agency and how much you're willing to individually tailor a query to an individual agent. That requires a LOT more homework, like tracking down their social media account, or reading interviews, if any, to see what they like in queries. Some people find this step worth it, others don't, your mileage may vary.
 

Claire Delune

10 Years in the Making
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,284
Greater Seattle Area
Anyone who's ever self-published and used drop caps at the start of chapters ever run into a problem where the drop cap is taller than the the first paragraph and the next paragraph starts before the bottom of the letter? I can't seem to find a style guide recommendation as to whether the second paragraph should be indented or not. Indenting looks like ass, but not indenting doesn't convey that there's a new paragraph there.

Like this:
Capture.png


I'm disinclined to rewrite paragraphs specifically to avoid this, but I can't find guidance anywhere and it's driving me nuts.
 

bananab

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,861
It should be indented--I think the problem with your example is that the indent is very deep (though I personally don't think it looks that bad). Most commonly indents are around the same length as the line itself is tall, leaving something more like a small white square. Example isn't helped by the fact that an L naturally has a huge void on the right side of it.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,384
Denver, CO
Anyone who's ever self-published and used drop caps at the start of chapters ever run into a problem where the drop cap is taller than the the first paragraph and the next paragraph starts before the bottom of the letter? I can't seem to find a style guide recommendation as to whether the second paragraph should be indented or not. Indenting looks like ass, but not indenting doesn't convey that there's a new paragraph there.

Like this:
Capture.png


I'm disinclined to rewrite paragraphs specifically to avoid this, but I can't find guidance anywhere and it's driving me nuts.
If it draws attention to itself—and that layout certainly does—then it needs to be reworked.

What software are you using to export?
 

djinn

Member
Nov 16, 2017
15,757
Had a chat with my psych and I'm trying to set clear cut goals for myself. One of them is to have a first draft for my book by next year. I don't know how feasible that is but it's something I can definitely work on now. I work better with a deadline. Back to starting with pen and paper too, the way I used to do. I find it's much easier to get started this way then on a computer. It just feels more organic to me. Not the most convenient but any means but I enjoy the craft so much more when I do it this way. Also teaching myself to get back into the habit of writing everyday. It's not been easy. My brain likes to come up with excuses not to write but once I get started it's fine. I think the hardest part is this has been trying to find a reason to write again. I think the answer to that revolves around my own self-worth and feeling confident enough again to share with others. But as I'm starting to feel joy again about writing, I feel like I'm starting to find my old self again. And that's pretty valuable to me.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
Had a chat with my psych and I'm trying to set clear cut goals for myself. One of them is to have a first draft for my book by next year. I don't know how feasible that is but it's something I can definitely work on now. I work better with a deadline. Back to starting with pen and paper too, the way I used to do. I find it's much easier to get started this way then on a computer. It just feels more organic to me. Not the most convenient but any means but I enjoy the craft so much more when I do it this way. Also teaching myself to get back into the habit of writing everyday. It's not been easy. My brain likes to come up with excuses not to write but once I get started it's fine. I think the hardest part is this has been trying to find a reason to write again. I think the answer to that revolves around my own self-worth and feeling confident enough again to share with others. But as I'm starting to feel joy again about writing, I feel like I'm starting to find my old self again. And that's pretty valuable to me.
"Also teaching myself to get back into the habit of writing everyday."

This one is important just for consistency sake but also because it can make the journey much more clear.
Say a book is 75k words, that can feel like a long journey especially in a year, but if you can regularly write the steps don't look that bad. If you write 250 of the remaining 300 so days then you just need to walk 300 words a day which isn't that bad. If you look at it that way it doesn't seem nearly as daunting to me.

So just take things in stride, make small steps, and keep trying. I wish you luck :)
Also if you ever want to casually talk with other ERA writers the discord link should be in the OP.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
This is gonna feel like an odd cross post but just stay with me.

black desert online is free to get off steam until march 2nd. (you will have to download and boot it once)
www.resetera.com

Black Desert Online free to own until March 2nd on steam

I didn't see a thread for this but Black Desert online is free to own until March 2nd on steam if you download (34GB) and boot it once during this "sale" window. * https://store.steampowered.com/app/582660/Black_Desert_Online/ I personally never really had the gameplay click for me, but the...

in that thread I focused on the character creation.
that's why I'm posting in here.

that character creator is decently detailed and while not painless to use, not the worst to use either. My point being that I've personally made some character in that game just to use as reference models for my characters. It works great to create the character you have in your head into something you can actually look at and examine.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,165
Manhattan, New York
This is gonna feel like an odd cross post but just stay with me.

black desert online is free to get off steam until march 2nd. (you will have to download and boot it once)
www.resetera.com

Black Desert Online free to own until March 2nd on steam

I didn't see a thread for this but Black Desert online is free to own until March 2nd on steam if you download (34GB) and boot it once during this "sale" window. * https://store.steampowered.com/app/582660/Black_Desert_Online/ I personally never really had the gameplay click for me, but the...

in that thread I focused on the character creation.
that's why I'm posting in here.

that character creator is decently detailed and while not painless to use, not the worst to use either. My point being that I've personally made some character in that game just to use as reference models for my characters. It works great to create the character you have in your head into something you can actually look at and examine.

That's a cool idea. I bet your prose on beards will improve =) On a more serious note, I wonder what the effect of using self-created visualizations, particularly with this kind of fidelity, can have on the quality of one's writing. It could certainly help a writer articulate, but a part of writing is anticipating what a reader is imagining in their heads based on your words -- so hopefully having this kind of reference doesn't cause writers to forget that they still have to convey what they are seeing to the reader.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
That's a cool idea. I bet your prose on beards will improve =) On a more serious note, I wonder what the effect of using self-created visualizations, particularly with this kind of fidelity, can have on the quality of one's writing. It could certainly help a writer articulate, but a part of writing is anticipating what a reader is imagining in their heads based on your words -- so hopefully having this kind of reference doesn't cause writers to forget that they still have to convey what they are seeing to the reader.
at the very least I find references allow me to remain more consistent with character designs.
 

zulux21

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,370
first off

BACK UP EVERYTHING YOU WRITE!!!!!!!!

second. I'm finally back to my main project which means I properly care about my 10k a month challenge

docs.google.com

Writing Era nano

July 2022 Name,Word Total,7/1,7/2,7/3,7/4,7/5,7/6,7/7,7/8,7/9,7/10,7/11,7/12,7/13,7/14,7/15,7/16,7/17,7/18 zulux21,17581,1284,564,0,2336,878,1242,713,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,953,0,0,1343 DTL,54100,1068,1694,1467,1447,3655,5413,1258,3309,12626

if anyone wants to join that's the spreadsheet for it.

I'll likely give anyone that joins and makes it to at least 1k a chance at a steam key for a game later. I will make a list but I have a lot of humble bundle left overs :P
 

Xagarath

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,140
North-East England
I'm at the rare point where I've finished all work on my current projects (at least until I get more beta notes back) and am deciding what to write next.
Maybe a ghost story.
 

Timu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,574
My Nano schedule for 2020-2022:

November 2020: Awesome Samantha: The Plot Thickens(alternate title is Awesome Samantha: Rise of the Thick)

November 2021: All About Life: Living the American Nightmare(alternate title is just All About Life)

November 2022: Extreme Max: The Epic Saga(might be a working title)
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,379
I'm hoping for Nano I'll finish my souls-inspired fantasy trilogy. The only reason I wouldn't start the third book is if I don't finish my current WIP before November. I'm going at a good clip and so I guess I'll hopefully finish it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,309
Cringing hard at some of the mistakes I made in my posted version of my Nano this year and people said it is good, :( I guess people look at the big picture vs spelling, grammar, and punctuation. OH well.