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Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
I guess I need to see this Neverland doc, because child molestation allegations about MJ have been around for decades and it's as if people are suddenly acting like this is the first we're hearing of this.

Let's pretend it hasn't happened!

Hypocritical.
Seems like it'd be only be hypocritical if Albert Brooks had also molested children

edit: I meant James L. Brooks! Wrong Brooks.
 
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Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I guess I need to see this Neverland doc, because child molestation allegations about MJ have been around for decades and it's as if people are suddenly acting like this is the first we're hearing of this.

The new documentary is the continuation of a story of the previous allegations about Jackson. The reason this documentary exists is because the two child witnesses in 1993 and 2005 who testified that Jackson never molested them said recently that they lied, and had been sexually abused from ages 7 to 14. The documentary is an examination of their entire life, from before they met Jackson, explaining how they met him and how he came to be a significant figure in their lives, to becoming the biggest jackson defenders in the world, to jackson becoming estranged from them (he threw them away like he had become bored of them), to the years of therapy that followed which finally allowed them to open up about their abuse.

The part in particular about how Jackson met them and became a huge part of their lives, is super heinous shit.
 

Stove

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,081
Great episode, but it glorifies a child abuser. Taking it out of circulation is the right call.
 
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MinusTydus

The Fallen
Jul 28, 2018
8,198
If they're pulling it from syndication, they'll likely pull it off digital providers as well.

To this day, you still can't legally buy Season 10 of Roseanne. It was pulled and never returned.

Wonder if this will lead to Space Channel 5 Part 2 getting de-listed from Steam.

Once the dominoes start falling...
 

Bitanator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,050
The episode is so sweet with its ending but I don't mind this being pulled from regular tv viewings.
 

Koo

Member
Dec 10, 2017
1,863
People are making a big deal about it now but it'll probably be like the twin towers episode and in a few years they'll quietly allow it to be viewed again.
 

Koo

Member
Dec 10, 2017
1,863
that episode was never pulled by the producers of the show nor the distributers, it was merely shelved from airing by individual stations. bit of a different scenario.
They'll probably still put it back in rotation eventually.

Have any other Simpsons episodes been banned?
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
People who are still questioning whether Michael Jackson was a monster should just watch the documentary. It puts everything into perspective nicely. He was without a doubt grooming kids.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,389
People who are still questioning whether Michael Jackson was a monster should just watch the documentary. It puts everything into perspective nicely.

It does. Even if one wanted to argue that Jackson was attracted to children because of his "stolen youth" he used his stardom as a position of power, and ended up using it that harmed many children.
 

Diunx

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
188
Can I ask why this is a good thing? I feel like people think just getting rid of everything that ever had a bad person involved will make the problem go away. The episode is an artifact of its time, where people were obsessed with Michael Jackson as a celebrity and personality. What is accomplished by removing the episode? I'm not trying to be dense or insensitive, I'm just curious what people feel is accomplished by this.
This, I don't like how censorship and deleting seem to be the answer to everything nowadays.
 

Crepuscular

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
400
Never a fan of this kind of "sweeping under the rug" practice, no matter what the cause. Later events put old things into different contexts all the time... that's just the world continuing to exist. Talk about the past, learn from it, re-contextualize it, whatever. "This old piece of media makes us uncomfortable now because of new information, so let's lock it away and never think about it again" is virtually always the worst solution IMO. It's just really lazy. See also the show recently deciding to just banish Apu forever (presumably) instead of actually dealing with the aspects of the character that people have legitimate issues with.

That being said, the only place I've actually rewatched this episode over the last 15 years is on the DVD set I still own, so whatever this effects me zero.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,979
...Why? It's not like we've learned anything new about MJ. Such a weird "too little, too late" action
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,369
Kitchener, ON
They'll probably still put it back in rotation eventually.

Have any other Simpsons episodes been banned?
Not globally. But some episodes have been pulled from the air in regional locations because of controversies and/or perceived cultural insensitivity.

Blame it On Lisa was banned in Brazil. I believe it may have even had a temporary ban on a wider scale that was lifted prior to its DVD release. Thirty Minutes Over Tokyo was banned in Japan. Goo Goo Gai Pan was banned in China.

The Cartridge Family was initially banned in the UK and then eventually allowed to air with edits. Ditto for episodes like Weekend at Burnsie's, Love, Springfieldian Style and A Midsummer's Nice Dream due to what UK censors deemed objectionable drug references.

Cape Feare was initially banned in Germany and then eventually allowed to air with edits.

The City of New York vs. Homer Simpson was temporarily banned in the United States post-9/11 and has since been restored.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Not sure I like this. MJ did horrible things, but some of the stuff he admitted himself (eg. the sleeping with kids) has been known for many years now. Just now reacting to a movie's revelations by trying to erase an episode of a show from almost 30 years ago, while I'm pretty sure there have been other cameos by similarly shady people... I don't know, it seems like a weird way to approach it.

Generally not a huge fan of retroactively changing art to fit the modern standards, regulations, court documents, testimonies and whatnot. It's history, they could just slap a banner in front of the episode in reruns saying that they're very sorry about the whole MJ situation but for preservation's sake they will still air the episode as is - in that way they'd show they acknowledged the issues, but they aren't deleting the work of what is also other people (MJ is just one of the hundreds [possibly thousands considering the entire world, the dubs, etc.] of people involved in the creation/distribution/curation of said episode). You can find news pieces from Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy from around WW2. No sane person thinks the content of those were alright, but they are kept around for history's sake, as preservation is important.

I mean, Roman Polanski is a dick, but his movies shouldn't be erased out of existence. Cut him out of the profits if anything, but those movies were worked on by tons of people and are (more often than not) excellent forms of art. OJ is a killer, but that doesn't change what he achieved in sports, they shouldn't erase the results of the teams he played in because of this. Booting Kevin Spacey from an on-going show was the right call given what happened there, but they shouldn't delete his past filmography out of existence because of this, especially in light of the other careers this move would damage. The same scenario applies here: this is a great episode of The Simpsons, one that is memorable and enjoyable for many things. It's not a Michael Jackson one-man show, so keep it. Take the right steps so that MJ (or in this case his legacy) doesn't get money from reruns or reprints, slap a giant banner on it, do whatever you want but why delete art altogether?

Imagine writing a 1200-pages epic book with LOTR-level of detail and planning. You publish it, people love it... but then it turns one of your proofreaders was a pedo, unbeknowst to you, so your book will now never be sold again, people will be unable to enjoy your art again unless they were lucky to buy it in time. I'm not a fan of this kind of approach at all because it ends up tainting art and taking away a creation from other people as well. I understand the reasoning behind it and it's definitely the correct call to disassociate themselves from MJ, but I would have gone about it much differently tbh. Art is a reflection of the times, future events shouldn't change past art, it should just be put in the correct context.
 

Lucreto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,643
Haven't been following this but have the police opened an investigation on Jackson to see if there are any merit to these accusations?

I agree with pulling the episode until the police investigation is complete.

I prefer to be sceptical on these things until its definitively proven.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
This, I don't like how censorship and deleting seem to be the answer to everything nowadays.
When it's the owners/creators themselves deciding they aren't comfortable airing their product then I don't see how it's the 'answer to everything' nowadays.

People not being comfortable showing work of theirs that features a known child abuser isn't the same as this 'ban culture' you seem to allude to.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
Imagine writing a 1200-pages epic book with LOTR-level of detail and planning. You publish it, people love it... but then it turns one of your proofreaders was a pedo, unbeknowst to you, so your book will now never be sold again, people will be unable to enjoy your art again unless they were lucky to buy it in time.
In this scenario you're the one deciding not to continue publishing it because you don't feel comfortable.

Also don't downplay it by saying it was one of the proofreaders. This is someone that's featured front and center in the episode, not someone that's never visible to the public eye in the content.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
In this scenario you're the one deciding not to continue publishing it because you don't feel comfortable.

Also don't downplay it by saying it was one of the proofreaders. This is someone that's featured front and center in the episode, not someone that's never visible to the public eye in the content.

Fair enough, it's hard to pull an analogy that is 100% accurate, but my point stands. That episode is a collective effort, one where MJ is obviously one of the notable elements, but it's not like a Michael Jackson album or live performance, it's something where he contributed to a relatively small percentage of the overall product and its quality. I'm simply not a fan of retroactively changing art because of different things that came up since then. Just like I wouldn't want museums to burn the works of Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Picasso, etc. if something horrible were to be revealed about them. No, I am not comparing a Simpsons episode to art masterpieces, but at the same time, art is art.
 

LiQuid!

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,986
I can think of very few situations in which I'm in favor of doing something like this (stuff like the Porygon episode of Pokemon which is directly responsible for injuring people being the only exception I can come up with on the spot), and I'm definitely not in favor of it... what? 20+ years after the damn fact?
It's part of the show's legacy. For better or for worse don't try to erase it.
I'm of this mind as well. This seems to be setting a dangerous precedent of wiping all problematic and complicated figures from pop culture in a way I'm not comfortable with. I feel like educating people about the controversy and then letting the work exist with that fat asterisk next to it is the proper way to handle this type of situation
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
I'm simply not a fan of retroactively changing art because of different things that came up since then. Just like I wouldn't want museums to burn the works of Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Picasso, etc. if something horrible were to be revealed about them. No, I am not comparing a Simpsons episode to art masterpieces, but at the same time, art is art.
Fair on the analogy, just wanted to point out where the difference was in case it was part of the stiffer argument.

I'm not a fan of it either, but my exception is with the creator and their feelings. I appreciate art extensively, I'm a designer by trade so it's always been an active thread in my life and I've been fortunate enough to be able to travel and see some great works. It's definitely not something I dismiss easily.

The thought of burning a Picasso is indeed one I dislike. However if I'd have learned that he'd burned one of his painting back then, because it included a child abuser in it, I wouldn't bat an eyelid. In fact I think it would be quite the strong tale told as part of his history.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
I don't get it. He's dead, what does he stand to profit from this?
Why is everything about profit?

Why can't people be not comfortable airing work they created and supported that features a known child abuser?

Jackson might be dead but his victims aren't.
 

gigaslash

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,122
I would've been pissed off with this decision, but it's not like Fox ever made simpsonsworld.com available worldwide, so ultimately it really doesn't change anything for me.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
I understand it's a hot topic and people feel very strongly about it, but I don't support this idea we have to raid and censor the past.

Michael Jackson also features in one of my favourite halloween Simpsons episodes. Does that mean it should be censored too?
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
I understand it's a hot topic and people feel very strongly about it, but I don't support this idea we have to raid and censor the past.
What idea?

This is the creators and supporters of the show deciding they're not comfortable airing the episode they made that features a known child abuser.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,658
What's with all the language accusing the Simpsons people trying to "erase this episode from existence"? They're just pulling it from syndication lol. They're not reissuing new DVD sets, they're not uploading amended iTunes seasons, and they're not trying to scrub it from any wiki. They're just pulling it from syndication, which seems totally fair. It's like if Spotify chose to not host R Kelly's music, they aren't erasing him from existence lol.

Get a grip, this is doing exactly nothing to harm the legacy of the simpsons.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
What idea?

This is the creators and supporters of the show deciding they're not comfortable airing the episode they made that features a known child abuser.

I'm talking in a broader hypothetical sense.

Also, it's "alleged", no matter how damning you feel the documentary is. I think it's extremely likely he was a child abuser, but I'm also not going to pretend the documentary was a court of law, or that manipulative editing and salacious detail is hard fact.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
I'm talking in a broader hypothetical sense.

Also, it's "alleged", no matter how damning you feel the documentary is. I think it's extremely likely he was a child abuser, but I'm also not going to pretend the documentary was a court of law, or that manipulative editing and salacious detail is hard evidence.
Why are you talking in a "broader hypothetical sense" when it's not applicable to what's happening here?

No, he was an abuser of children far outside of sexual acts. For that there's only willful ignorance for defence.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
Why are you talking in a "broader hypothetical sense" when it's not applicable to what's happening here?

What's happening here is an example of removing something innocuous because it's related to something toxic. The idea that if we get new information about an artist we have to remove the art from public consumption, even though it's been freely available for decades. I can understand it in the case of this Simpsons episode, but I personally don't think it's something the creators needed to do. A warning before broadcast, or an edit might suffice.

In another 10-20 years, society probably won't feel as raw about this issue and the worth of a vintage episode of the Simpsons will be re-assessed and we'll see it pulled back from the archives.

No, he was an abuser of children far outside of sexual acts. For that there's only willful ignorance for defence.

He absolutely had a messed up relationship with kids that is at the very least unhealthy, and at worst, sexually abusive. I need to finish the second part of the documentary so I can't fully comment.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,315
Do it in USA, not elsewhere.

(Also cant be worse than what happened in France... They edited every mentions of the word "Duff" after a company released an unofficial Duff beer because of the law regarding alcohol advertisement. Which means they even stop airing the Duffland episode :/ )
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
What's happening here is an example of removing something innocuous because it's related to something toxic. The idea that if we get new information about an artist we have to remove the art from public consumption, even though it's been freely available for decades. I can understand it in the case of this Simpsons episode, but I personally don't think it's something the creators needed to do. A warning before broadcast, or an edit might suffice.
That's what I'm saying though. That isn't happening, that idea isn't what's presented by this action.

What's happening here is people who made a piece of creative work don't feel comfortable airing it any more, because of its association with something they abhor.

There's no wider hypothetical. It's distinct from this 'outrage' type of scenario you describe.

In another 10-20 years, society probably won't feel as raw about this issue and the worth of a vintage episode of the Simpsons will be re-assessed and we'll see it pulled back from the archives.
You keep framing this as though it's "society" that has the problem with the work, instead of the creators of it and those that support it.
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
Do it in USA, not elsewhere.

(Also cant be worse than what happened in France... They edited every mentions of the word "Duff" after a company released an unofficial Duff beer because of the law regarding alcohol advertisement. Which means they even stop airing the Duffland episode :/ )

Guess what.

He raped kids who weren't American too.
 
Nov 18, 2017
2,932
That's what I'm saying though. That isn't happening, that idea isn't what's presented by this action.

What's happening here is people who made a piece of creative work don't feel comfortable airing it any more, because of its association with something they abhor.

There's no wider hypothetical. It's distinct from this 'outrage' type of scenario you describe.

You keep framing this as though it's "society" that has the problem with the work, instead of the creators of it and those that support it.

I don't see much of a distinction between whether the creators feel uncomfortable with it, or there was a wider campaign by a section of the public. The short-term outcome is the same, and the reasons are largely the same. I'm sure the decision came from a good place, but given the episode rarely airs and nobody was talking about it, from a PR perspective the announcement gives The Simpsons headlines and positive press, whilst being something they can easily retract at a later date...
 
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Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,217
I don't see much of a distinction between whether the creators feel uncomfortable with it, or there was a wider campaign by a section of the public. The outcome is the same, and the reasons are the same. I'm sure the decision came from a good place, but given the episode rarely airs and nobody was talking about it, from a PR perspective the announcement gives The Simpsons headlines and positive press, whilst being something they can easily retract at a later date...
That's definitely the difference of opinion that forces our views. Speaking for myself, I'm coming from it as a designer who has put out art and illustration. You might be as well, and designers are far from a collective mind, I'm saying it because it definitely influences my view as I would feel a strong difference between myself feeling a piece of my work wasn't appropriate for display any more, and a campaign from the public to take a piece of mine down. I appreciate you detailing your reasoning behind it though, and that you find that 'want' to perhaps be more business focused than moral.

For me I think it's important that we do show a form of rebuke for Michael. I wouldn't be the first to jump to taking down art and have myself said in the other thread it's up to people if they feel comfortable playing his music or not. However when an artist comes out and says they don't feel comfortable airing their work anymore, I think that's perfectly acceptable and not indicative of a wider issue.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,315
Guess what.

He raped kids who weren't American too.

Oh, that wasn't my point.
He didn't dub other languages as far as I know is what I mean.
Unless the whole issue is the character pretending to be Michael Jackson ? As far as I understand it (and totally agree with), the problem here is Michael Jackson dubbed a character in that episode. Hence why the need to stop airing it.