• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

RolandGunner

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,520
I remember when my local channel stopped showing X-Men and replaced it with that one season of WildCATS. Didn't know anything about the comics so I just assumed they lost the rights to X-Men and came up with some knock-off characters instead. Turns out that was kinda right but with way more to the story.
 
OP
OP
HadesHotgun

HadesHotgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
871
X-Men is right up there with B:TAS as my favorite 90's show. As a depressed gay kid the show's themes always resonated with me, but it was only years later that I realized that the Dark Phoenix saga in particular was a great metaphor for the darkness and loneliness of being depressed and closeted. "I can't fight it. Not every second of every day, never slipping, not even for an instant." The thought of Jean choosing death rather than living with that darkness was powerful and mirrored my own struggles. But the X-Men giving up a part of themselves to bring Jean back was similar to how my friends were there for me when I finally came out. "We understand. And we accept." Coincidentally, when I met my boyfriend years and years later, he also said he grew up with the show and Phoenix was his favorite character.

The show wasn't without its problems, of course. The dialogue hewed a little too close to Claremont prose at times, though I always thought it was part of the charm. The biggest problem of course, was that Saban were notoriously cheap and the animation quality was often substandard. Still, I loved the Jim Lee designs, and while Evolution's animation was more fluid and consistent, good lord those character designs were awful.

Posts like this come up enough to prove the extent to which the show had an impact that went well beyond the animation budget. It adamantly tackled themes of persecution and bigotry and community and tolerance in a way that wasn't really done before in a medium for children.

For my own part, I grew up viewing gay people with the same bigoted perspective I think many kids had in the 80's and 90's. But when I got on the internet and connected with X-Men fans, many of whom were gay, it forced me to confront those views. I was point blank asked how I could like the X-Men and not support gay people. I tried to rationalize my prejudices but ultimately those folks helped to rhetorically beat that nonsense out of me.

Also, I think it's awesome that you and your boyfriend had that it common. I had a similar experience with my wife, who also really liked the show growing up. Along with Sailor Moon it really stood out for her since they didn't just have the one token girl on the team but rather a whole cast of women to choose from.
 

GekigangerV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
653
I still hear those voices when I read a comic today. The season long story arcs were also something I found unique and engaging at the time.
 

just_myles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,453
Not realizing TV seasons were a thing, I used to be so frustrated as a kid that first X-Men year because it was like they showed "Night of the Sentinels" every other weekend.



Yeah that was the good one. I remember this show on Channel 5(ktla in cali) back in the day. Sad they did not continue with this. However, the Fox series was good enough. It did what it could in a half an hour time slot.

I have a soft spot for Evolution Wolverine

I thought the first couple of seasons were garbage. Animation was better but, the show sucked. Wolverine and the x-men was better and went on hiatus on a good note(AoA if recall correctly).
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I will never understand this mentality. The show had obvious production flaws but straight up awful.

Hell yeah it was awful. The animation quality was poor at best and only got worse as the show ran on and the actual episodes were terrible.

Name one actually good episode from that show. Hell, name one good, memorable moment. I sure can't think of one outside of "lol meme" territory.

That's laughable, especially considering it's competition at the time.


tas01.jpg
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,760
I will never understand this mentality. The show had obvious production flaws but straight up awful. That's laughable, especially considering it's competition at the time.
I can see how it was more ambitious than a lot of it's contemporaries, but I still found that it has aged very badly even ignoring the animation with clumsy dialog and poor pacing. And its competition included shows like Exo-Squad, Gargoyles, Beast Wars, the WB cartoons all of which I'd say have held up much better.

Jesus, Saban is such a piece of shit.
I remember listening to an interview with a Power Rangers voice actor noting how Saban hired a bunch of them to sit on his company's board of directors, basically to be ignorant yes men so he could do as he pleased.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
29,446
I will never understand this mentality. The show had obvious production flaws but straight up awful. That's laughable, especially considering it's competition at the time.
I mean its pretty silly these days and has aged worse than most other stuff(both Marvel's and DC) but it was pretty darn incredible for the time.

I never liked XMen before that series finally made it click with me.
 

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
Hell yeah it was awful. The animation quality was poor at best and only got worse as the show ran on and the actual episodes were terrible.

Name one actually good episode from that show. Hell, name one good, memorable moment. I sure can't think of one outside of "lol meme" territory.



tas01.jpg
And

latest
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,963
Its the reason I'm an X-Men fan. Also, I'm not surprised this turned into an X-Men vs. Batman shitstorm. Why can't we have both?
 

Shang

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,659
Hell yeah it was awful. The animation quality was poor at best and only got worse as the show ran on and the actual episodes were terrible.

Name one actually good episode from that show. Hell, name one good, memorable moment. I sure can't think of one outside of "lol meme" territory.

In "The Cure," Rogue declines the cure realizing that her powers were a part of her. Powerful stuff when you're a young minority coming to terms with accepting yourself. Meanwhile, X-Men: The Last Stand had Rogue gives up her powers because she was jealous of Kitty. Sigh.

Then there's "Bloodlines," which didn't shy away from Nightcrawler's Catholicism at all, and examined both the fear and forgiveness that religion can foster. Mystique throwing baby Nightcrawler off a cliff with tears streaming down her face was heartbreaking stuff.

I think most fans are more than willing to acknowledge the faults and limitations of the show while recognizing the conditions under which it was made (though I still contend that even the original intro had some genuinely gorgeous animation). But while I understand the criticisms of the animation and voice acting, I'll never quite understand the people that act like the show had no redeeming qualities at all.

The High School drama was nice. It explored the X-Men outside of them being costumed superheroes. More baseball moments instead of beating up the main villain of the week. I don't remember any episodes talking down to it's audience. Some real shit happened and sometimes it was traumatic for some characters. And Spyke is way more interesting than Marrow who continues to stay irrelevant outside of MvC2.

I mostly just remember being turned off by the high school personalities more than the stories themselves. Nightcrawler in particular I found insufferable, and Spyke was so dull they literally wrote him off the show. That said, Goth Scarlet Witch totally worked for me, and I like to think that MCU Wanda's costume is based on her.

For my own part, I grew up viewing gay people with the same bigoted perspective I think many kids had in the 80's and 90's. But when I got on the internet and connected with X-Men fans, many of whom were gay, it forced me to confront those views. I was point blank asked how I could like the X-Men and not support gay people. I tried to rationalize my prejudices but ultimately those folks helped to rhetorically beat that nonsense out of me.

That's pretty awesome. It's unfortunate that Disney haven't bothered to create a new X-Men animated series for a new generation, as a lot of the themes are still very much relevant in today's world.
 

KNZFive

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,756
The 90s X-Men cartoon hasn't aged well, and it doesn't hold a candle to Batman: The Animated Series. But goddamn if it wasn't insanely ambituous for its time for even daring to do serialized storytelling on Saturday morning cartoons. I was 6 when the show debuted and seeing a cartoon with an actual story that carried across episodes was mind-blowing.

Other shows have since done it better, but X-Men deserves credit for proving that kids enjoyed and could handle cartoons with long-running stories. It also deserves credit for exposing countless people to Marvel for the first time. It was certainly my first introduction to those characters.

Now, Disney needs to get their act together and actually create a critically acclaimed Marvel animated series. The last great series was Spectacular Spider-Man, which got the axe when Disney bought Marvel. I've heard that the new Spider-Man series is OK or at least better than Ultimate.
 
OP
OP
HadesHotgun

HadesHotgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
871
Hell yeah it was awful. The animation quality was poor at best and only got worse as the show ran on and the actual episodes were terrible.

Name one actually good episode from that show. Hell, name one good, memorable moment. I sure can't think of one outside of "lol meme" territory.



If you would like to discuss the relative merit of various cartoons or express your feelings for X-Men Evolution, could you please make another thread to do that? This thread is about the article posted and the history and impact of X-Men TAS. Please do not further derail this thread in to a fight over Batman or any other show.
 

roflwaffles

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,138
The show wasn't without its problems, of course. The dialogue hewed a little too close to Claremont prose at times, though I always thought it was part of the charm. The biggest problem of course, was that Saban were notoriously cheap and the animation quality was often substandard. Still, I loved the Jim Lee designs, and while Evolution's animation was more fluid and consistent, good lord those character designs were awful.

I actually love the Evolution Magneto design quite a bit. I didn't like how much they nerfed him to the only-metal manipulating version you see in the movies though. I need those Sonic rings of doom!

latest


90's Piccolo as Wolverine was also great.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
If you would like to discuss the relative merit of various cartoons or express your feelings for X-Men Evolution, could you please make another thread to do that? This thread is about the article posted and the history and impact of X-Men TAS. Please do not further derail this thread in to a fight over Batman or any other show.

I was asked to compare X-Men TAS to a contemporary.

It's a thread about X-Men TAS. "This show is bad" is not off topic.
 

T'Challa Shakur

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,487
Toronto
I have this show to thank for my love of the X-Men, but the movies also solidified it further
I thank them for showing me the Dark Phoenix saga instead of the abomination of X3 and Apocalypse

Yup. My first exposure to both Marvel and DC were X-Men, Spider-Man and Batman TAS. Its pretty funny how much easier it was to remain faithful to the source material back then.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,880
Columbia, SC
Is his cape on backwards in the third pic?

Its a character model sheet. Its meant to be transparent so artists who would use this as a guide as to know how to draw that character from various angles. Some times you'll see the profile poses without arms in these too. It just helps animators stay on model when drawing basically.
 

Strangelove_77

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,392
It was definitely influential in a lot of ways and shaped who the Xmen were in videogames and even the movies for to this day, but the show has aged pretty badly. And not just the animation, the writing isn't great either.

I still have a soft spot for it like I do for the Spiderman cartoon, which also sadly aged pretty badly.
 

SOLDIER

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,339
In "The Cure," Rogue declines the cure realizing that her powers were a part of her. Powerful stuff when you're a young minority coming to terms with accepting yourself. Meanwhile, X-Men: The Last Stand had Rogue gives up her powers because she was jealous of Kitty. Sigh.

I always found stuff like that to be rather hypocritical.

When Mutants like Rogue have powers that literally affect their quality of life and are an actual danger to other people, it shouldn't be something that they "accept" if there's the possibility to treat it.

There was that one kid in the Ultimate comics that had a Mutant power that kills anyone around him at a certain radius. Wolverine has to kill him just because he was too dangerous to live.

Imagine that kid getting cured and Cyclops shits down his neck for not accepting his Mutant pride. See how that doesn't work?
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,754
The cartoon is/was great, though I had started reading the comics a year prior(and delving into its deep history via the various card series and the Classic X-Men reprints), so it doesn't have quite the same impact for me as those for whom it was their primary or sole exposure. I remember trying to make it my business to record every episode...even had a false start a week earlier and recorded some tripe called "Solarman" before the actual X-Men premiere. The as-aired first season was rife with production errors, animation/voice glitches, etc...but i was obsessed all the same. I was upset when they re-recorded Storm's voice...in the original airings, she really went off during her claustrophobic fits. And also in the Slave Island episode, when they throw her in "The Box"..."NO PLEASE NOT IN THERE!!! LET ME OUT...LET MEEE OUUUUUUTTTT!"...they toned her down. In the Morlock episode, I think they even removed the "Hisssss" after Calisto mocks her with "What's the matter Storm? Surface life make you soft?"

Something I was always keen on with cartoons where the background music/motiffs. This show was great for that...the somber theme when Rogue remembers her power activating when she first kisses Cody...the battle theme when they team up against Juggernaut and other battle themes, Colossus' theme, Bishop's twangy harmonica, the Muir Island bagpipes, etc. And obviously the voice acting cast was top notch.

Still though, as a Jean fan, this show was poison...the worst version of the character. Like some weird mash-up of 90s era age/look, but 60s era power levels and inexperience...even worse in some ways (60s comic Jean was able to telepathically hurt Juggernaut through his helmet...90s cartoon Jean had to use Cerebro, just to implant hypnotic suggestions, and still passed out). It's not like they had to nerf her so drastically just for the sake of her becoming Phoenix...Phoenix would have been a huge boost regardless. And why the ponytail?

Speaking of Phoenix, I think the Dark Phoenix Saga was the show's most accurate comic book adaptation(besides the obvious roster line up...and the kid-friendly ending)...and in some ways even better, since it gave a visual depiction of the astral plane battle with Xavier trying to wall off the Phoenix in Jean's mind...and Jean's mind combining with Xavier's to turn the tide, which was only a thought-bubble by Xavier in the original story.

It also sucked that there were never any real roster changes..just cameos. Evolution had a ho-hum first season, but after that, I liked that there were long term changes (Beast joining, the New Mutants, Spyke's changes and leaving the main group, etc)...and some good power team-up moments (not just in sequence, but actual good combo tactics).
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,754
Hey I just realized, the show did the "try to rehabilitate Sabertooth" storyline first...with Jubilee being tricked into freeing him instead of Boom-Boom...and Wolverine getting mortally injured as a result instead of Psylocke.
 

SOLDIER

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,339
I seriously never understood why they didn't have more characters join the team.

Wouldn't that be a mandate just to sell more toys?
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,364
One of my favourite cartoons of all time, loved this show as a kid and it was by first big introduction to Marvel.

Highly recommend Chris Sim's funny as hell episode reviews from ComicsAlliance. The Days of Future Cast podcast is really good too http://www.daysoffuturecast.com they are working their way through reviewing the entire series.

 

Pluto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,422
I loved that show, it hasn't aged well compared to others of the time but it was my first exposure to the X-Men, I remember Morph dying in the pilot, that alone shocked me and then the storytelling was pretty serialized, characters returned, actions mattered and had consequences, I had never seen that in a cartoon before.
I discovered X-Men comics a few months later at the train station at the book/comic store when we were picking up my mom and started reading both that and Spider-Man.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,963
I actually love the Evolution Magneto design quite a bit. I didn't like how much they nerfed him to the only-metal manipulating version you see in the movies though. I need those Sonic rings of doom!

latest


90's Piccolo as Wolverine was also great.

I'm not a fan of the long legs/high torso look. Reminds me of Frank Quitely's New X-Men work.
 
OP
OP
HadesHotgun

HadesHotgun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
871
Still though, as a Jean fan, this show was poison...the worst version of the character. Like some weird mash-up of 90s era age/look, but 60s era power levels and inexperience...even worse in some ways (60s comic Jean was able to telepathically hurt Juggernaut through his helmet...90s cartoon Jean had to use Cerebro, just to implant hypnotic suggestions, and still passed out). It's not like they had to nerf her so drastically just for the sake of her becoming Phoenix...Phoenix would have been a huge boost regardless. And why the ponytail?

Speaking of Phoenix, I think the Dark Phoenix Saga was the show's most accurate comic book adaptation(besides the obvious roster line up...and the kid-friendly ending)...and in some ways even better, since it gave a visual depiction of the astral plane battle with Xavier trying to wall off the Phoenix in Jean's mind...and Jean's mind combining with Xavier's to turn the tide, which was only a thought-bubble by Xavier in the original story.

It also sucked that there were never any real roster changes..just cameos. Evolution had a ho-hum first season, but after that, I liked that there were long term changes (Beast joining, the New Mutants, Spyke's changes and leaving the main group, etc)...and some good power team-up moments (not just in sequence, but actual good combo tactics).

I agree with your complaint about the nerf on Jean's competence and capability. Though I feel like that is a general theme in most media when dealing with psychic characters. Other prominent examples being Martian Manhunter in JL and JLU and Troi in Star Trek TNG.

I feel like writers are intimidated by characters with those power sets, so they often side line them with severe weaknesses just as an easy way of increasing tension.

Regarding roster changes, I do think it would have been great to see some permanent changes, but I was still impressed at how prominent a lot of the guest characters were.

They had several multi part episodes in the later seasons that pushed main cast members to the background and more prominently featured guest characters in leading roles. Bishop, Cable, and Forge all got to be on quite a bit, which I think was a result of how popular the time travel episodes were.



That's pretty awesome. It's unfortunate that Disney haven't bothered to create a new X-Men animated series for a new generation, as a lot of the themes are still very much relevant in today's world.

I feel like the X-Men in general have been kind of wasted given how relevant they are today. Given how Disney/Marvel has handled racism and Nazis in their films, I don't feel like they would want to address the relevant themes of the X-Men in a cartoon at all.




I always found stuff like that to be rather hypocritical.

When Mutants like Rogue have powers that literally affect their quality of life and are an actual danger to other people, it shouldn't be something that they "accept" if there's the possibility to treat it.

There was that one kid in the Ultimate comics that had a Mutant power that kills anyone around him at a certain radius. Wolverine has to kill him just because he was too dangerous to live.

Imagine that kid getting cured and Cyclops shits down his neck for not accepting his Mutant pride. See how that doesn't work?


I think that in the films it did actually make sense for Rogue to go ahead and get rid of her powers because they never really gave much effort to actually dealing with her character's conflicts anyway. Unfortunately, they way it is framed, as a jilted girlfriend, makes it seem intentionally petty and immature rather than practical.

What worked in TAS was that Rogue was a fully capable and valuable member of the team, who was essentially making a personal sacrifice in order to help others and be true to herself. That element never really manifested in the movies.

I think that is a problem endemic to the film series as a whole and not just to the third film. The movies really don't seem interested in telling a story about social issues or big ideas, but rather just use those as window dressing. For my money, the best X-Men stories, regardless of medium, are the ones that manage to keep the social themes tied directly to the conflicts.
 

Shang

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,659
I always found stuff like that to be rather hypocritical.

When Mutants like Rogue have powers that literally affect their quality of life and are an actual danger to other people, it shouldn't be something that they "accept" if there's the possibility to treat it.

There was that one kid in the Ultimate comics that had a Mutant power that kills anyone around him at a certain radius. Wolverine has to kill him just because he was too dangerous to live.

Imagine that kid getting cured and Cyclops shits down his neck for not accepting his Mutant pride. See how that doesn't work?

I understand that viewpoint if you take it literally, but as a metaphor it's different if you look at it from the lens of a persecuted minority. Think about a gay kid who's told that homosexuality is an abomination, and will lead to the collapse of civilization. It doesn't matter whether or not mutants are actually dangerous; the point is that they're made to feel dangerous. "When gay people have a sickness that affects their quality of life and are an actual danger to society, it shouldn't be something that they 'accept' if there's the possibility to treat it." That's exactly the kind of thing I was taught in Catholic school.

I'm not the saying the metaphor always works, but Ultimate X-Men #41 is bit of an extreme example. You could go to the other obvious extreme and take a completely benign mutant like Jazz, whose sole mutation is blue skin. If you take it at face value, of course he should take the cure because then he'd fit in. But then, what color is normal?

I think that in the films it did actually make sense for Rogue to go ahead and get rid of her powers because they never really gave much effort to actually dealing with her character's conflicts anyway. Unfortunately, they way it is framed, as a jilted girlfriend, makes it seem intentionally petty and immature rather than practical.

What worked in TAS was that Rogue was a fully capable and valuable member of the team, who was essentially making a personal sacrifice in order to help others and be true to herself. That element never really manifested in the movies.
Yup, exactly. The movie never showed Rogue as having any sort of conflict over the choice (though some of the alternate cuts are a bit better, at least leaving the choice more ambiguous). "The Cure" works because it examines both why she would want the cure and why she would want to keep her powers. "I am my powers, and the good they can do... I reckon maybe I can live with that after all."
 

Sadist

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,329
Holland
X-Men Animated was my gateway drug to Marvel. As a kid I mainly watched the animated series, but after the movies happened and knowing the right places on the internet, I got into comics. But the X-Men, together with Spidey and Batman were my starting point.

As a kid I loved the episodes with Wolverine in the second world war (where he works together with Cap) and ofcourse the episode with the Phalanx. But mostly I like the series because it didn't treat you as a kid. Not an idiot. But seeing how most cartoons (including this one, well that was the idea) are geared towards selling toys, that sucks. Its a shame, kids can't grow up with more complex stories.
 

OmniGamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,754
I agree with your complaint about the nerf on Jean's competence and capability. Though I feel like that is a general theme in most media when dealing with psychic characters. Other prominent examples being Martian Manhunter in JL and JLU and Troi in Star Trek TNG.

I feel like writers are intimidated by characters with those power sets, so they often side line them with severe weaknesses just as an easy way of increasing tension.

I hear you...it sucks that they wouldn't even let her fly (except as Phoenix)...just barely slow her decent on occasion. Another thing I loved about Evo-Jean's portrayal.
 
Oct 26, 2017
516
Great article.

And, damn, you guys are getting old!


Jesus, Saban is such a piece of shit.

Yes. They try to hide it but, in the end, they expose themselves.

Saban: I am by nature a very collaborative person.

Saban: Obviously, after I was able to deliver the network this hit series,

Eric Lewald : The Hollywood normalcy is you provide a number one hit and the money starts flowing. What happened with us was we had a number one hit, but it was four or five companies working on this. One of them was Saban. What he did after the first season was cut $500 off the script fee for the writers.

Eric Lewald: His rationale was, "it's a hit. They want to be part of it, so they'll take less money."

JuliaLewald: "And if not, there's a line out the door of people who will."
 

Cheerilee

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Saban is/was a notorious not-illegal credit-stealer. He hired composers like Ron Wasserman to compose stuff like the awesome X Men and Power Rangers themes, and then he reserved all the rights and kept all the royalties for himself. Which is fine, I guess. But then he went around calling himself "the composer" of those works, suggesting that he was the artist who made them, not that he was the guy who hired young artists to make them. A bunch of his former composers got together and sued him, and they settled out of court.

Saban apparently fired Ron Wasserman because Wasserman wanted to have his name on Power Rangers the Movie. When they get too big, you gotta cut them off. "I am by nature a very collaborative person." Yeah, right.