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Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
23,065 My Man

VIPER!!!!
what a weird stance lol

'if we get x viewers on twitch we'll invest more in this huge, proven franchise'

I think thinking if investing in the e-sports scene is justified is actually not that crazy (they have said multiple times on stream that Microsoft claimed they didn't really know where they were taking Age of Empires, probably referring to AOE2 competitive scene).

But the great part is that NAC3 got 27k viewers and a prize pool of 40k total. And just announced that in March we will have another tournament (Hidden Cup 3) with a 50k prize pool.

This probably means that we will continue to see great support for the game in terms of the competitive scene.
 

pswii60

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,673
The Milky Way
I think it'll continue for a long time after that. Time will tell whether it'll be an effective one though.

It's an impossible narrative to prove wrong because no matter what a game looks or plays like you can always say "and just imagine how much better it could look if it didn't run on the Xbox One." This narrative going away is entirely dependent on gamers seeing a demo of a game like Halo Infinite and saying "Hey that looks suitably next generation to me" and that is simply not going to happen. In order for that to happen the argument would have to come from a place of good faith where people would be willing to change their minds. Considering we haven't seen a single game yet and people are trying to whip up an absolute frenzy you'll have to forgive me for doubting whether good faith exists in a large portion of those concerned.

IMO the best possible outcome is that games show up and look good and this entire line of conversation is reduced to a dime a dozen console warrior troll post.

If we need a current example look at how long the "GamePass is a dollar so X games success is invalid" or "MS only puts all their first party games on GamePass day one because they are low quality" have managed to stick around.
Switch games are doing just fine. Good games are good games, that's all that matters in the end. Microsoft just needs to make sure their new games are stellar, only then the whole next gen debate will fade in to irrelevance.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,632
The World
I think thinking if investing in the e-sports scene is justified is actually not that crazy (they have said multiple times on stream that Microsoft claimed they didn't really know where they were taking Age of Empires, probably referring to AOE2 competitive scene).

But the great part is that NAC3 got 27k viewers and a prize pool of 40k total. And just announced that in March we will have another tournament (Hidden Cup 3) with a 50k prize pool.

This probably means that we will continue to see great support for the game in terms of the competitive scene.

That's awesome. Are you one of the presenters for this?
 

PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,645
United States
There have been mass-number FPS games on PC since the mid 90s, and even on consoles previously: MAG, Planetside 2. This isn't new. Nor is it saying 'oh it's easy, no problems', but the massive paradigm shift that seems to hang behind the assumption behind much of this talk isn't really there in the way suggested, imo.

This is what I've been trying to say in my comments on the issue. People talk about:

- "Huge battles with enormous maps!"

I was playing PlanetSide across an entire continent, 150v150v150 with air and ground vehicles, in 2002 on an Athlon XP and video card with 128 MB of RAM.

- "Incredible new AI!"

We've been hearing this for twenty years and it never happens, in part because realistic or crazy smart AI is not actually fun to play against. Enemy AI has barely changed from the player's perspective since Half Life, and that's with CPUs increasing probably 50x or more in power.

- "Super realistic physics simulations!"

This always sounds like a gimmick to me. Do people really want more Half Life 2 physics puzzles? If not, how do they intend this to actually affect gameplay? And again that was all achieved 15 years ago.

- "Massive NPC swarms!"

Days Gone and Dead Rising don't exist now?

Etc. I've yet to hear a convincing argument. If people won't commit to a real scenario that they can explain clearly in terms of tech AND gameplay, then talk about games being held back is just "concerns" until shown otherwise.
 

Hudsoniscool

Banned
Jun 5, 2018
1,495
This is what I've been trying to say in my comments on the issue. People talk about:

- "Huge battles with enormous maps!"

I was playing PlanetSide across an entire continent, 150v150v150 with air and ground vehicles, in 2002 on an Athlon XP and video card with 128 MB of RAM.

- "Incredible new AI!"

We've been hearing this for twenty years and it never happens, in part because realistic or crazy smart AI is not actually fun to play against. Enemy AI has barely changed from the player's perspective since Half Life, and that's with CPUs increasing probably 50x or more in power.

- "Super realistic physics simulations!"

This always sounds like a gimmick to me. Do people really want more Half Life 2 physics puzzles? If not, how do they intend this to actually affect gameplay? And again that was all achieved 15 years ago.

- "Massive NPC swarms!"

Days Gone and Dead Rising don't exist now?

Etc. I've yet to hear a convincing argument. If people won't commit to a real scenario that they can explain clearly in terms of tech AND gameplay, then talk about games being held back is just "concerns" until shown otherwise.
I've been critical of the idea for multiplayer and I think it's valid. I remember an interview with 343 in 2015 where they said that they couldn't increase the player count in war zone any further due to limitations. Maybe that was an engine issue that will be resolved with slipspace idk. But I've never witnessed a game with high player count on console with the level of detail I'm imagining. Apex is the closest I could think of. Pubg has more players and maps are bigger but the quality detail is much much too low.

Look at my post history. I'm not fake concerned. I'm an Xbox gamer since 2003 with over 100k gamerscore. Haven't owned a PlayStation since ps2,(though I do have psnow on my laptop)haven't owned a Nintendo console since n64 and haven't touched pc gaming since Starcraft 2. I'm just an avid Xbox gamer who will buy the XSX and a halo super fan.
 

Hudsoniscool

Banned
Jun 5, 2018
1,495
I think it'll continue for a long time after that. Time will tell whether it'll be an effective one though.

It's an impossible narrative to prove wrong because no matter what a game looks or plays like you can always say "and just imagine how much better it could look if it didn't run on the Xbox One." This narrative going away is entirely dependent on gamers seeing a demo of a game like Halo Infinite and saying "Hey that looks suitably next generation to me" and that is simply not going to happen. In order for that to happen the argument would have to come from a place of good faith where people would be willing to change their minds. Considering we haven't seen a single game yet and people are trying to whip up an absolute frenzy you'll have to forgive me for doubting whether good faith exists in a large portion of those concerned.

IMO the best possible outcome is that games show up and look good and this entire line of conversation is reduced to a dime a dozen console warrior troll post.

If we need a current example look at how long the "GamePass is a dollar so X games success is invalid" or "MS only puts all their first party games on GamePass day one because they are low quality" have managed to stick around.
It won't be a lasting argument though. According to Matt booty we are only talking about the first year of xsx. So after 3-4 AAA games the Xbox one will be dropped.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
It just remains to be seen if it's gonna work out like that, but to me it wouldn't make sense for devs to STILL target X hardware and not Series X. Or am I wrong?
It's possible actually. Even likely. There are probably many smaller games that have gotten very far along on current gen hardware and don't have the chance to target series X very well. The difference is that the game would simply not come out on next gen hardware at all otherwise. So no, I don't think we're missing out on anything.

The really funny thing for me is. If anyone is basing their TARGET HARDWARE STRATEGY CORE GAME DESIGN on this news RIGHT NOW, by the time the game releases, this period will already have passed lol.

You can't tell me that people have had this crazy awesome game idea based on imaginary hardware for 2 years that is now ruined. Nor that some intrepid studio has this crazy ambitious plan for a game they're designing now and publishing with Microsoft that will also come out in the next year and a half. The concern just really, really doesn't make sense.
 

RedSparrows

Prophet of Regret
Member
Feb 22, 2019
6,492
I've been critical of the idea for multiplayer and I think it's valid. I remember an interview with 343 in 2015 where they said that they couldn't increase the player count in war zone any further due to limitations. Maybe that was an engine issue that will be resolved with slipspace idk. But I've never witnessed a game with high player count on console with the level of detail I'm imagining. Apex is the closest I could think of. Pubg has more players and maps are bigger but the quality detail is much much too low.

Look at my post history. I'm not fake concerned. I'm an Xbox gamer since 2003 with over 100k gamerscore. Haven't owned a PlayStation since ps2,(though I do have psnow on my laptop)haven't owned a Nintendo console since n64 and haven't touched pc gaming since Starcraft 2. I'm just an avid Xbox gamer who will buy the XSX and a halo super fan.

I don't think anyone's seriously suggesting there's no chance of there being compromise in these situations. The point is more that it's about much more than bald facts (assumed ones at that). Rather, it's the idea that there's no massive paradigm shift from a technical development coming as it relates to what we'll actually end up playing, if the past is anything to go by. By this I mean it's more likely a series of welcome progressive/gradual changes and thus the setting of new expectations, rather than you turning on a next-gen console on Day 1 and experiencing something utterly new. Maybe this is unimaginative of me, but looking at the vast, vast, vast majority of highly praised games, they are the products of this slow progression, marked by design revelations more than technical feats. This isn't to say games haven't got bigger and more complex - they have - but that this isn't contingent on generational leaps, nor is it sudden, nor is it about tech alone. Gears wasn't stunning because of its complexity of level design, it was stunning cos it was brute-forcedly pretty. Dark Souls isn't beloved because of its technical prowess. Etc.

On multiplayer specifically, PUBG is ugly because the engine is poor. Not because it's inherently impossible to make large maps with high player counts that look good. Naturally the higher the count the ropier a game will likely look, as it makes compromises. But the raw fact of having, say, 200+ people in a map has been done on tech way older than Xbone and PS4 (although AI is an extra facet, but Warzone's AI is marshalled, it's not an entire map of dynamic enemies, it's controlled spawns... add in too many, and yes, you'd likely need either a serious equivocation on performance or, basically, block modes from some platforms). The devil would again be in the design: how would a weaker/stronger version of the game, tech-wise, help/hinder players respectively. Where, if there is one, does the compromise fall, and how, and why?

Also, this could fall into the trap, age-old, of thinking 'bigger automatically is better'. I know you ain't necessarily saying that, and I too would be interested in a bigger Warzone-kinda mode. It's just never been the case that more=always better. Splinter Cell MP is one of my favourites ever, 2v2. Imagine that, next-gen, with a whole host of smoke, light and other effects... hooo momma. Could still work on Xbone too!
 
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PianoBlack

Member
May 24, 2018
6,645
United States
I've been critical of the idea for multiplayer and I think it's valid. I remember an interview with 343 in 2015 where they said that they couldn't increase the player count in war zone any further due to limitations. Maybe that was an engine issue that will be resolved with slipspace idk. But I've never witnessed a game with high player count on console with the level of detail I'm imagining. Apex is the closest I could think of. Pubg has more players and maps are bigger but the quality detail is much much too low.

Look at my post history. I'm not fake concerned. I'm an Xbox gamer since 2003 with over 100k gamerscore. Haven't owned a PlayStation since ps2,(though I do have psnow on my laptop)haven't owned a Nintendo console since n64 and haven't touched pc gaming since Starcraft 2. I'm just an avid Xbox gamer who will buy the XSX and a halo super fan.

Sorry, probably should have left my last sentence off. I suspect there is a lot of fake concern, but I also acknowledge this could be a real issue. I just don't know of any real or even likely examples of it affecting game design (not just loading times, graphics effects etc.)

I don't know what to say about the Warzone issue you mention. If it was possible to put 300 people on a map in 2002, then the Xbox One can do it too. Any constraint must come down to something like the engine, Xbox Live, combining that many players with a certain level of detail or whatever else. There's no law that says "Xbox One can't deliver huge battles."
 

TE4M GREENE

Member
Sep 23, 2019
56
Greeting everyone. My username refers to my family name and that I am the fourth born amongst my siblings. No, I'm not some Xbox zealot.

Regarding the cross-gen stuff, journalists and social media could potentially be setting Sony up for a massive marketing trainwreck. Looking at countless articles and social media posts, you'd think the PS5 is going to be powered by a quantum computer or something. If Sony allows the continuation of the narrative that launch games will be inherently superior because they're PS5 only, those games damn well better look better and play better than Series X games. If not, the media will be all too happy to create week-after-week of negative clickbait articles that will hurt the PS5's launch...or articles about how games on Series X could "theoretically" look worse at some undefined point in the future.

If I were Sony, I'd temper expectations: "Yes, at launch we will have a mix of cross-gen games and PS5 only titles that will give players a taste of next-generation." Or something like that. Just don't let the hype get carried away.

Anyway, I'm pumped for Halo Infinite, but I'm probably even more excited for a possible followup to Halo: Renegades. Though after reading about the supposed job listing for a AAA Halo spinoff, I'm hoping (and praying) the crew of the Ace of Spades are finally getting their own game.
 

In Amber Clad

rather sultry
Moderator
Aug 26, 2018
5,503
London
Anyway, I'm pumped for Halo Infinite, but I'm probably even more excited for a possible followup to Halo: Renegades. Though after reading about the supposed job listing for a AAA Halo spinoff, I'm hoping (and praying) the crew of the Ace of Spades are finally getting their own game.

First of all, welcome. Secondly, I want this to be a thing.
 

knightmawk

Member
Dec 12, 2018
7,489
I don't think there's a game to date on Xbox one that comes close to what I'm talking about.

The X couldn't do it either. Map size, player count, AI. With possible complex customization are powered by the cpu.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by complex customization, but I also don't think it matters, you're point stands, not all CPU bound tasks can be scaled well. I just think it's a little pointless to be concerned that games that don't exist now may continue to not exist next generation. It just doesn't seem productive. There will always be things that can't be done or that are very difficult to do, and there have always been. Game designers and developers have always had to work with limited hardware and they're pretty good at it, if nothing else, the fact that architecture and philosophy isn't wildly changing this gen will make it a lot easier to conquer those limits early on. They're gonna make great games no matter what, but being concerned that they won't make games great enough because of technological limitations is just silly.

Every game has involved compromise, every game mode starts out on paper as way bigger and winnows down over time and trial, if you start worrying about how good games could be if there were no limits, we'd be here all day and we'd get nowhere but tired.
 

Hudsoniscool

Banned
Jun 5, 2018
1,495
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by complex customization, but I also don't think it matters, you're point stands, not all CPU bound tasks can be scaled well. I just think it's a little pointless to be concerned that games that don't exist now may continue to not exist next generation. It just doesn't seem productive. There will always be things that can't be done or that are very difficult to do, and there have always been. Game designers and developers have always had to work with limited hardware and they're pretty good at it, if nothing else, the fact that architecture and philosophy isn't wildly changing this gen will make it a lot easier to conquer those limits early on. They're gonna make great games no matter what, but being concerned that they won't make games great enough because of technological limitations is just silly.

Every game has involved compromise, every game mode starts out on paper as way bigger and winnows down over time and trial, if you start worrying about how good games could be if there were no limits, we'd be here all day and we'd get nowhere but tired.
I do think the reason this gen the structure of games didn't change drastically from last is because the cpu upgrade wasn't very big.
But you are right I'll try not to worry about it so much. It's only for a year of xsx anyway.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
Switch games are doing just fine. Good games are good games, that's all that matters in the end. Microsoft just needs to make sure their new games are stellar, only then the whole next gen debate will fade in to irrelevance.
This. All MS needs to make sure is that the overall standard for XGS is quality no matter the size or scope of the game.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
We'll see

They should
I believe if we want the current Halo playerbase to expand they should keep up with the times in terms of gameplay. Reach doesn't have the best gameplay but boy did it die fast on PC. Classic Halo gameplay is great but we'll always have the MCC for that. 343 should continue to use modern features expected of a shooter while also innovating.
 

Defect

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,706
I believe if we want the current Halo playerbase to expand they should keep up with the times in terms of gameplay. Reach doesn't have the best gameplay but boy did it die fast on PC. Classic Halo gameplay is great but we'll always have the MCC for that. 343 should continue to use modern features expected of a shooter while also innovating.
Reach sucks and is far from classic gameplay. And not having sprint doesn't mean it's behind the times.
 
Nov 29, 2019
2,069
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Absolutely. I've been playing Reach again, and oh God... I mean, the game is gorgeous, the story and characters are amazing, but the gameplay didn't age well. Playing it isn't fun when you can't run to cover, and just keep dying at the same spot because the character movement is slow af.

We're in 2020, the thought of 343 going back to 2000 gameplay mechanics is... *shrugs*
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,447
I think thinking if investing in the e-sports scene is justified is actually not that crazy (they have said multiple times on stream that Microsoft claimed they didn't really know where they were taking Age of Empires, probably referring to AOE2 competitive scene).

But the great part is that NAC3 got 27k viewers and a prize pool of 40k total. And just announced that in March we will have another tournament (Hidden Cup 3) with a 50k prize pool.

This probably means that we will continue to see great support for the game in terms of the competitive scene.

That context makes far more sense. I was thinking something in the lines of 'we'll see how much people we get to invest in the franchise itself'.
 

knightmawk

Member
Dec 12, 2018
7,489
I do think the reason this gen the structure of games didn't change drastically from last is because the cpu upgrade wasn't very big.
But you are right I'll try not to worry about it so much. It's only for a year of xsx anyway.

Yeah, that could have been part of it, there's an argument to be made that the circumstances of the industry didn't encourage a lot of drastic changes until pretty much the end of the generation.

I don't mean to condescend at all, these are all good points and maybe similar discussions are being had in studios right now, I'm just hype for these new studios to start firing on all cylinders, and I hate to see people ruin the potential hype for themselves.
 

DvdGzz

Banned
Mar 21, 2018
3,580
I think Halo should be a 3rd person good version of Anthem. Spartans are supposed to be combat gods and they run around like a normal grunt in CoD. Give me a break.
 

DvdGzz

Banned
Mar 21, 2018
3,580
Would be great if atleast the campaign had that option (more specifically the 3p)

Yep, I couldn't care less about PVP so having 3rd person with rpg elements would be awesome to me. Upgrading your armor, customizing abilities, etc. I am just not excited about a better graphics version of Halo 3 like everyone else.
 

Filipus

Prophet of Regret
Avenger
Dec 7, 2017
5,132
That's awesome. Are you one of the presenters for this?

Not at all, Nili (the person who organized the tournament) was the one explaining the situation. Microsoft gave him 50k for his tournament, 20k going to the prize pool (the rest is hotels, flights, etc..) and the community gathered another 20k through twitch donations.
 

Vico

Member
Jan 3, 2018
6,379
It's sad to see Halo being the most voted game in the thread where people predict 2020's disappointments. I guess it's fair, in a way, but damn it's hard to see!
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,632
The World
Not at all, Nili (the person who organized the tournament) was the one explaining the situation. Microsoft gave him 50k for his tournament, 20k going to the prize pool (the rest is hotels, flights, etc..) and the community gathered another 20k through twitch donations.

Awesome to hear community contributed 20k.

Back in the day places like Heavengames, AoC, etc. were ridiculously active during AoE2 days.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,278
Hamburg- Germany
It's sad to see Halo being the most voted game in the thread where people predict 2020's disappointments. I guess it's fair, in a way, but damn it's hard to see!

This forum is Sony land first so this is not a surprise at all. Even if the game is better than expected certain people will create threads that claim the opposite.

Most polls should be ignored anyway as they seem to have the purpose to only trigger people.
 

TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
It's sad to see Halo being the most voted game in the thread where people predict 2020's disappointments. I guess it's fair, in a way, but damn it's hard to see!
I don't see how it's fair lol. I have a feeling it's because it's crossgen and some people left the studio. That doesn't really mean much though. It's not like people are leaving in hordes.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,278
Hamburg- Germany
I don't see how it's fair lol. I have a feeling it's because it's crossgen and some people left the studio. That doesn't really mean much though. It's not like people are leaving in hordes.

This Cross gen bullshit becomes more and more ridiculous with every day passing. As if it is impossible for 343i to add next gen featurs to the game like ray tracing better AI and whatever comes along with the new machine. I even think they have 2 Teams working on version for current gen and one working on Series X version to make use of the SSD tech.

Didn't Forza Horizon even have 2 teams ? The 360 and Xone version looked very different and could easily justify a purchase of the Xone.
 

dodmaster

Member
Apr 27, 2019
2,548
It's sad to see Halo being the most voted game in the thread where people predict 2020's disappointments. I guess it's fair, in a way, but damn it's hard to see!
Maybe i'm a glass half full person, but that just says to me that everyone is hoping it will be great, but that it won't meet their expectations. I think that's very good for 343 because if expectations are lowered, then they're easier to exceed. Except for those of fanboys and concern trolls of course, whom you will never please.
 

NippleViking

Member
May 2, 2018
4,491
Which would turn it into an arean style twitch shooter like unreal tournament. I'm all for that genre to come back, but that's not what halo is about. It has always been about choices. Move fast, OR shoot.
Utter tripe. Move fast OR shoot is only what Halo has been about since Reach, and it's a superficial decision at best that complicates map design, slows the game down, and ultimately hurts the pacing. I loved Halo 5's gameplay, but firmly believe it would have been a far better game if designed around consistent movement speed.

But this topic has been beaten to death, most don't have faith that a fast and polished Halo without sprint would be compelling (nonsense imo), and regardless the great sprint debate shouldn't be at the top of 343i's priorities
 
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TheUnseenTheUnheard

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
May 25, 2018
9,647
Maybe i'm a glass half full person, but that just says to me that everyone is hoping it will be great, but that it won't meet their expectations. I think that's very good for 343 because if expectations are lowered, then they're easier to exceed. Except for those of fanboys and concern trolls of course, whom you will never please.
I feel like the people following the console speculation stuff are more likely to do things out of spite but good thinking though.
 

Detective Pidgey

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 4, 2019
6,255
I replied to Rhand's video last week and someone replied to my comment. He said some things just can't be scaled: You cannot scale A.I. behavior and game size, you can do it by making the A.I. stupider by taking out routines and game size by taking the Series X game and making it smaller to scale the resolution/graphics to work on 1.3 teraflops of the OG Xbox One.

Thoughts?
 

Somnia

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,954
Got the Elite V2 controller and my god... it really is amazing. I was back and forth on it for weeks and finally made the move.

Anyone else who has it, does it feel slightly smaller than a normal xbox one controller or am I going crazy? I mean its extremely comfortable, but it feels just slightly smaller to me.
 
Sep 19, 2019
2,278
Hamburg- Germany
I replied to Rhand's video last week and someone replied to my comment. He said some things just can't be scaled: You cannot scale A.I. behavior and game size, you can do it by making the A.I. stupider by taking out routines and game size by taking the Series X game and making it smaller to scale the resolution/graphics to work on 1.3 teraflops of the OG Xbox One.

Thoughts?

The AI thing makes no sense. If AI isn't scaleable how is it even possible to choose between different difficulties in a game ???
 

ToadPacShakur

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,449
Ugh we need some game/studio acquisition rumors or leaks or something. I am so goddamn done with all of this cross gen first party worry bullshit. It's not fun being on ERA this past week because it's in almost every freegin thread.
 
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