entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,810
I like MVG a lot. He makes a lot of great points and he himself is a fan of the Xbox brand.

This is more of an opinion piece, as he says. I think he has a lot of good takes here. Worth watching, but I provided some talking points.


View: https://youtu.be/DVH0nHY-Wws?si=5i5w4vP2I6yxlbch

  • He loved the original Xbox's team risk-tasking--HDDs, Online Infrastructure, Achievements, Voice Comms/Headsets
  • 360 being their high point, RROD notwitstanding
  • Looks like GamePass is flat lining and the model may be broken since big games may not drive subs
  • Moreover, there's a lack of a steady stream of big MS Studios titles to make GamePass enticing
  • AAA game development has become unsustainable
  • And finally, studios should not be punished for GamePass flatlining, like the recent studio closures.
  • Admits the whole VG industry is a bad place right now.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,353
User warned: Threadwhining. Drive by trolling
Lets make a thread about every video on this subject - Xbox is dying

Drum that beat šŸ™ƒ

Its joever
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,392
These are good points in the summary so I'll give it a watch... But I must admit how strange it is that everyone finally coming to the same conclusion now as if a spell has been broken.

People have been pointing out the flaws in their strategy and predicting this exact same scenario for years (Check the Gigaboots podcast if you need the arguments timestamped and on record, the same issues were there before this gen even launched), but it seems a lot of journalists and popular commentators have preferred to just take Xbox leadership at their word without much scrutiny.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,531
Gentrified Brooklyn
The thing I find fascinating is the general discussion is that the Activision merger is what did them in; financing such a mega deal would inevitably caused huge shifts at Microsoft based on price and also attention. When you have to divert their lawyers who are fighting an existential crisis on several fronts since many regulators are going after big tech in general now have to fight the US regulators just to buy Activision, it's not surprising it's a money's paw deal. Xbox does well from an underdog position and it's given so much to the hobby, but now they are kind of morphing into EA and it's not necessarily by design, they walked into this trap
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,651
Solid overview/assessment. This gives due recognition of some bigger industry trends that have hit everyone in some form.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,101
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
MS and Xbox definitely lost their way and their focus.
PhilĀ“s plan and strategy of "being on all devices" would only have worked if they had implemented this from a position of leadership. MS lost an incredible amount of market and mindshare with Xbox One and even. though MS remedied one of the issues with Xbox (not the most powerful), we can clearly see that power alone will not make a difference.

I also argue that the strategy of Xbox Series X and S was sound but execution was not done correctly. In this case, the Series S SHOULD have been a portable device and not a "me too but weaker Series X".
A portable Series S would have encouraged customers to "double dip" at a far higher rate than what people did with the Series X and S.
Many bought Series X for the adults and Series S for the kids.. but the ratio could have been way way better if the Series S was a portable device.

Series S is a great piece of hardware, but MS would have gotten soooo much more mileage in this gen with a portable device.

And also, the software lineup/stream of games. Granted, covid impacted much here.. but it did so for the competition as well.

BUt the main issue now is that it seems that the focus is not there and MS as a company is strongly shifting to AI as a Services/Ai in Everything (AIE). How this affects the videogame segment is not yet so easy to say and time will tell..

However, and this is my opinion, the best Xbox was the Xbox that was hungry and competed aggressively. That tried and secured exclusive content.. like with OG Xbox and 360.
The "Play our software wherever you like" is a nice idea but this is most likey only successfully implementable if you are already at the top and not coming from an underdog position.

I don't know how many more chances Xbox has now to recoup and regain position, even from within MS.. but in order for anything to change, MS needs to shift back to strategy of becoming "THE" best place to play the games and that MS should offer the hardware for it, stationary and portable.

Again, my two c
 

Derbel McDillet

ā–² Legend ā–²
Member
Nov 23, 2022
16,353
I don't think it's a pile on. It's a pretty sober analysis. Also it's coming from a fan of the brand. Watch the video.
I mean, they're not wrong. It's been a week of "here's MY take about where XBOX went wrong", when you put the dozens standing next to each other, they're not really unique in the grand scheme of things.
MS and Xbox definitely lost their way and their focus.
PhilĀ“s plan and strategy of "being on all devices" would only have worked if they had implemented this from a position of leadership. MS lost an incredible amount of market and mindshare with Xbox One and even. though MS remedied one of the issues with Xbox (not the most powerful), we can clearly see that power alone will not make a difference.

I also argue that the strategy of Xbox Series X and S was sound but execution was not done correctly. In this case, the Series S SHOULD have been a portable device and not a "me too but weaker Series X".
A portable Series S would have encouraged customers to "double dip" at a far higher rate than what people did with the Series X and S.
Many bought Series X for the adults and Series S for the kids.. but the ratio could have been way way better if the Series S was a portable device.

Series S is a great piece of hardware, but MS would have gotten soooo much more mileage in this gen with a portable device.

And also, the software lineup/stream of games. Granted, covid impacted much here.. but it did so for the competition as well.
You're inventing an entirely different device that does none of what makes the Series S appealing with this suggestion. That's not different execution that's a new invention.
 

vio55555

Member
Apr 11, 2024
448
I like MVG a lot. He makes a lot of great points and he himself is a fan of the Xbox brand.

This is more of an opinion piece, as he says. I think he has a lot of good takes here. Worth watching, but I provided some talking points.


View: https://youtu.be/DVH0nHY-Wws?si=5i5w4vP2I6yxlbch

  • He loved the original Xbox's team risk-tasking--HDDs, Online Infrastructure, Achievements, Voice Comms/Headsets
  • 360 being their high point, RROD notwitstanding
  • Looks like GamePass is flat lining and the model may be broken since big games may not drive subs
  • Moreover, there's a lack of a steady stream of big MS Studios titles to make GamePass enticing
  • AAA game development has become unsustainable
  • And finally, studios should not be punished for GamePass flatlining, like the recent studio closures.
  • Admits the whole VG industry is a bad place right now.

Uh, I was with him on a lot of points but "Microsoft does poorly with acquisitions" is not a great take. In the past sure, they have Nokia in their past among others. Skype actually did okay, basically led them into B2B communication where they're dominant now with Teams and don't really need Skype to be a big thing. It simply transitioned (wisely) to the next thing with a Slack-killer app in Teams.

He mentions LinkedIn which has grown from when they took it over with $1 billion annual revenue to $14 billion in annual revenue with 2x as many users now (arguably the most successful social media site in user growth/revenue growth terms other than TikTok over the past 5-6 years). They've done a great job of growing that and keeping it a focused business site (on employment, businesses, and long-form business discussions).

Github has done well by various metrics (much larger usage rates than when they took it over), and their most recent purchase of Nuance looks like it probably will end up being worthwhile as well.

Microsoft as a whole is performing as strongly as any company perhaps ever has; it's become a behemoth of business software/subscriptions with Azure in cloud providing a serious challenge to AWS and potentially pulling even with AWS in size in the coming years. They have a leadership position in AI with a near 50% stake in OpenAI and they've avoided the problems that IBM had in transitioning to the next big thing in business software.

It's just gaming where Xbox has had a lot of problems due to the lack of console sales of Xbox 1 and now Series X/S. Buying studios hasn't plugged the hole and now the Gamepass ecosystem is threatening to collapse on itself due to its lack of scale (lack of Xboxes = lack of Gamepass subs = not enough revenue to justify Day 1 on their titles).

But this is very much just an Xbox problem at Microsoft, the rest of the company is arguably in far better shape than its ever been.
 
Last edited:

raketenrolf

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,329
Germany
These are good points in the summary so I'll give it a watch... But I must admit how strange it is that everyone finally coming to the same conclusion now as if a spell has been broken.
This already started when it was announced that they go multi with some of their games.

And this is probably how everybody who loved the original Xbox and Xbox 360, feels right now. I also believe that this point is amplified by the fact that the 360 nostalgia is kicking in in many people. The console released over 15 years ago and we made some amazing memories with it.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,101
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
I mean, they're not wrong. It's been a week of "here's MY take about where XBOX went wrong", when you put the dozens standing next to each other, they're not really unique in the grand scheme of things.

You're inventing an entirely different device that does none of what makes the Series S appealing with this suggestion. That's not different execution that's a new invention.

The portable device would still do the same as the Series S would do but be portable and could even have been dockable.

Switch and all the portable retro machines/steam decks etc show that people don't mind having a less "4K" experience in order to gain portability.

Seems more that you misunderstood the point here.
 

beebop

Member
May 30, 2023
2,040
There's much better analyses out there on the topic. This just feels like a 13 minute rant.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,025

It's funny, I doubt we've ever had such extensive analysis of "failure" from any other platform holder as we've had in recent times for the one in question.

Like an old man I've lined up a stack of reading and video content to digest on a Sunday morning with a coffee and maybe a piece of toast.

The meme of "Nintendo should go third party" sprang from such tepid and un-interested reads on that situation, for instance. Time and again.

I for one don't think Xbox is going anywhere, the games media is just more concentrated now so it only seems like "it's for realā€¦.this time!"
 

Derbel McDillet

ā–² Legend ā–²
Member
Nov 23, 2022
16,353
The portable device would still do the same as the Series S would do but be portable and could even have been dockable.

Switch and all the portable retro machines/steam decks etc show that people don't mind having a less "4K" experience in order to gain portability.

Seems more that you misunderstood the point here.
Seems more you don't realize what you're asking for isn't technologically feasible.

A $300 device that's the same, but portable ...
This isn't even possible to do now let alone 3 years ago.
 

PinkSpider

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,236
Ooof. Just spotted this in my feed. Watching now; he's been a massive fan of XBOX over the years and always has some interesting input.
 

Garulon

Member
Jul 22, 2020
869
The portable device would still do the same as the Series S would do but be portable and could even have been dockable.

It's a 75w 4TF how the fuck were they supposed to make it a "portable device" in 2019 without having Atari Lynx-level of battery life

If we're having Magical Thinking day you know what would have been really cool? An AI robot buddy that does the dishes and then plays co-op with you. Thanks Robot buddy you saved Xbox!
 

Johnny Blaze

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,294
DE
These are good points in the summary so I'll give it a watch... But I must admit how strange it is that everyone finally coming to the same conclusion now as if a spell has been broken.

People have been pointing out the flaws in their strategy and predicting this exact same scenario for years (Check the Gigaboots podcast if you need the arguments timestamped and on record, the same issues were there before this gen even launched), but it seems a lot of journalists and popular commentators have preferred to just take Xbox leadership at their word without much scrutiny.
I think Tango was the final straw for many people and it exploded.

Not just a Microsoft issue. Sony closing studios, laying off 900 people including at Insomniac of all places, all the "redundancies" at ABKā€¦it has been brewing.

Then came the closing of Tangoā€¦it's as if Sony would shut down Housemarque.

2:50
"Microsoft buys companies for IPs not people, people don't matter"
That's the gist of it.
 

Tsuyu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,911
In a world where the biggest games are f2p live services games, gamepass will be a hard sell. More so when the cost AAA gaming isn't sustainable compared to before.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,101
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
Seems more you don't realize what you're asking for isn't technologically feasible.

A $300 device that's the same, but portable ...
This isn't even possible to do now let alone 3 years ago.

OK, you are hooked up on same specs here.
Ok, forget about the specs for a while, the premise and strategy here would be one stationary console (Series X) and one portable. If it is easier fo you, see this as a Series P.
No one is saying that it should have been the same specs as the Series S.. but using the same philosophy as between Series X and S, meaning same game with downgraded.

A reminder that Nintendo Switch was released 2017 and Series S 2020.
Is the argument that MS could absolutely NOT have designed a portable machine that would have been equal or better than Nintendo Switch?

make this make sense
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,101
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
It's a 75w 4TF how the fuck were they supposed to make it a "portable device" in 2019 without having Atari Lynx-level of battery life

If we're having Magical Thinking day you know what would have been really cool? An AI robot buddy that does the dishes and then plays co-op with you. Thanks Robot buddy you saved Xbox!

Hmmm..
For a moment, forget about the Series S specs.. obviously the proposed Series P would have a different set of specs. The premise I am talking about is still the following:
1. One all powerful stationary console (Series X)
2. One portable, call it Series P if you like, with the specs fitting for the form.

The premise is that the Series S should have been a portable device with the fitting specs, not that the actual Series S, with all its specs, should have been THE portable device.

oh my..
 

orangebalt

Member
Jan 3, 2020
57
Lets make a thread about every video on this subject - Xbox is dying

Drum that beat šŸ™ƒ

Its joever
Did you even watch the video? It's a great analysis of the current state of Xbox. MVG always puts out well thought out content.

It's funny, I doubt we've ever had such extensive analysis of "failure" from any other platform holder as we've had in recent times for the one in question.



Like an old man I've lined up a stack of reading and video content to digest on a Sunday morning with a coffee and maybe a piece of toast.



The meme of "Nintendo should go third party" sprang from such tepid and un-interested reads on that situation, for instance. Time and again.



I for one don't think Xbox is going anywhere, the games media is just more concentrated now so it only seems like "it's for realā€¦.this time!"
It was pretty bad during the Wii U generation. It just wasn't as apparent because it was at a point in time where social media wasn't as prevalent. Both Playstation and Nintendo haven't been in this type of position since 2006-2009 and 2012-2016 respectively, so we wouldn't see anything like this for either in recent times.
 
Last edited:

Garulon

Member
Jul 22, 2020
869
The premise is that the Series S should have been a portable device with the fitting specs, not that the actual Series S, with all its specs, should have been THE portable device.

That's literally even dumber and just totally misunderstands why the Series S exists and it's role in the market. This is just saying "Microsoft shouldn't have made a cheap console" with extra steps
 

beebop

Member
May 30, 2023
2,040
I think Tango was the final straw for many people and it exploded.

Not just a Microsoft issue. Sony closing studios, laying off 900 people including at Insomniac of all places, all the "redundancies" at ABKā€¦it has been brewing.

Then came the closing of Tangoā€¦it's as if Sony would shut down Housemarque.

2:50

That's the gist of it.
It's worth watching Sikamikanico 's take on why Tango in particular feels so much more symbolic this time.

View: https://youtu.be/aJKycPsvoQk?si=x91WRdISCdEO9G2C
 

Dreamboum

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,031
That's a really nothingburger of a video. How is Xbox going to make these nebulous "great games" if they shut down studios making them?
Why is Skyrim and Fallout 4 seeing more players than Starfield? Where are the great games?
Why did Hi-Fi Rush won more awards and nominations than every 2023 Xbox and Bethesda games combined if that is the case?

It's always, oh wait for the june presentation, wait for this and that, and then they make boneheaded decisions every three months.

Shit is mad weird the way they're carrying water for Microsoft. They shut down the studio that shipped two games this generation but we're supposed to believe Indiana Jones is going to right the ship somehow. Come on, man.
 

15SagittaeB

Member
Feb 12, 2022
958
Hmmm..
For a moment, forget about the Series S specs.. obviously the proposed Series P would have a different set of specs. The premise I am talking about is still the following:
1. One all powerful stationary console (Series X)
2. One portable, call it Series P if you like, with the specs fitting for the form.

The premise is that the Series S should have been a portable device with the fitting specs, not that the actual Series S, with all its specs, should have been THE portable device.

oh my..

The problem there is that you can't just drop the specs of that portable as much as you want, because at some point that would mean having to develop 2 entirely separate versions of a game and hence meaning the portable ends up with 0 games.
I'm not a developer or anything, but I imagine the CPU (at the same clock) atleast is absolutely crucial and likely even more components have to stay exactly the same and those alone could already be waay over the power budget of a portable.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,101
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
That's literally even dumber and just totally misunderstands why the Series S exists and it's role in the market. This is just saying "Microsoft shouldn't have made a cheap console" with extra steps
That's literally even dumber and just totally misunderstands why the Series S exists and it's role in the market. This is just saying "Microsoft shouldn't have made a cheap console" with extra steps

How is this "literally" even dumber? I am perfectly aware the reasons why Series S exists but the potential, as far as I would say, were not used.
From a sales perspective, regardless how cool the machine is, did not set any sales on fire. Granted, this is due to various reason but this little machine was always in the shadows of its bigger brother. It didn't have anything for it besides the price.

A portable version, could have had both the price advantage BUT also something that the Series X could not match, portability. This gives it immediately an extra that the bigger brother does not have.

Also, people tend to be more "forgiving" when it comes to specs on a portable device than a stationary.

I still think and argue that the two console strategy make sense but only if one would have been a portable version.
 

M4xim1l1ano

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,101
Santiago, Stockholm, Vienna
The problem there is that you can't just drop the specs of that portable as much as you want, because at some point that would mean having to develop 2 entirely separate versions of a game and hence meaning the portable ends up with 0 games.
I'm not a developer or anything, but I imagine the CPU (at the same clock) atleast is absolutely crucial and likely even more components have to stay exactly the same and those alone could already be waay over the power budget of a portable.

No!
This is thought about already in the design phase and not after the Series X is already created. Its not like the Series S or the 2 console strategy was an afterthought.
Already in the design phase of the machines, you would have established 1 or 2 consoles tiers and specifications... and based on that proceed accordingly.

The problem, as far as I can see, would maybe be that AMD didn't have any good chips or competing chips for that power envelop.
On the other hand, nothing says that both consoles must have been released at the same time. MS could have tapped or arranged similar to what Valve did with the CPU.

Again, from a value proposition and strategy, 1 stationary + 1 portable in the same family would have made far more strategic sense than 2 stationary with the only difference is price.
 

Rahkeesh

Member
Jun 20, 2022
4,272
MVG's videos are typically pretty well thought out, organized, on topic. This is more like a grab-bag of years of greviences from a fan that are sometimes contradictory. His personal position is that he quits Xbox the moment they fully quit physical media so its not going to matter which studios are still working for them either way. (Ironically, MS selling games on Playstation/Switch is probably the best chance at continuing physical.) But its also illogical to complain that digital sales aren't "real" from a company perspective, all they care about is profits and they are actually higher on the pure digital side, its only gamepass where there is some problem.
 

Garulon

Member
Jul 22, 2020
869
A portable version, could have had both the price advantage BUT also something that the Series X could not match, portability. This gives it immediately an extra that the bigger brother does not have.

Portability isn't an "extra" it's a fundamental aspect of the console (2019 would definitely mean ARM if they were lucky they might get to 2TF)

* Different market
* Different use cases
* Different tech

This is "why didn't Microsoft release two completely different consoles, one of which will be a platform they've never done before requiring games they've also never done before"

Oh and to cap that they'd be launching in a market absolutely already dominated by the Nintendo Switch

I can't see why this isn't just magical thinking
 

CoolAssGoat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
269
I like MVG, I've followed him for quite a few years now but I feel like he's getting consistently more clickbaity. Saw the Xbox Series Dead thumbnail and didn't bother to watch the video.
 
Jun 5, 2023
2,793
I just read OPs bullet point summary and it looks like Era talking points. Nothing new or unique. At this point it's run it course and there is not much you can say that hasn't been said before. If we check the Xbox coaster we're due for another upswing. Some positive news that they will destroy a week or two after it announces. Hellblade 2 reviews?
 
Feb 9, 2024
414
Nothing new or interesting is really being said here, from a long time fan and member of the homebrew scene i was expecting something more insightful.
 

toppa

Member
Aug 25, 2023
445
The way higher ups on Xbox were always so buddy buddy with some of the toxic fanboys has always weirded me out.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,254
M4xim1l1ano For what it's worth (and because people seem intent on missing your point and piling onto you), I think you might be right-ish in your thinking.

The Series S is just "That other console but cheaper and worse". There are no up-sides to buying one other than saving a couple hundred bucks. As we have seen from countless market data, people seem to be less price-sensitive in big purchases like these, as long as there is (perceived) value there.

A portable Xbox would have appealed to a different segment of the market, and yes, could have made people double-dip.
It would probably have taken on a non-conventional form-factor, given the power-requirements, but that's the sort of thing you get your creatives and engineers to think about, and also task your marketing team with probing the market to see what people might be receptive to.

Would it have been a success? Well I kinda doubt it, but nobody will ever know because they never tried
 

Abominuz

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,564
Netherlands
Miss the 360 era MS also, they where building and building of the OG Xbox and taking risks and their own studio's where doing there thing. I remember games like Blue Dragon, Lost oddesy, we got Gears of War, Dead rising, Crackdown and Forza and the list goes on.
They where on fire back then, and since Xbox One they have never been the same again. I blame a lot on the shifting focus to being innovative and trying to expand to things like multimedia to soon or too much. There was a lot of focus on multimedia and Kinect, etc. And this gen with ''we want to be on every device and every livingroom''. Just make good frikin games and focus on that. You had Rare, Bungie, Lionhead, etc, and we have seen the same with the now closed studios. So much potential and just do nothing with them. But promise after promise of more first party games coming showing trailers 3 years ahead of release and then ever seeing the light of day and saying our studio's are busy working om great games but the output has been lackluster. A bit of a rant, but i like the compitetion and hungry and battleready Microsoft. But it seems like they just dont care as much anymore.
 

TanookiTom

Member
Oct 29, 2017
705
Berlin
It's crazy to think (and remember) how during the 360 days but even with the OG Xbox, Microsoft actually commanded a pretty amazing and versatile portfolio of games and exclusives, even some pondering to Japanese / non-Western audiences.
And then they went and completely destroyed all that (and the many many studios along the road).

I hope they manage to turn the ship around somehow while remaining a platform holder. After all it's better for consumers / the market to have more players. But not when this means they are just going to keep buying and then destroying studios from the inside out.

And to people saying a portable Xbox would have made any difference: that's really some wishful thinking. What they need is a good game portfolio that makes their systems attractive and makes people feel they are buying into an ecosystem that is actually alive.
 

Adulfzen

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,660
How is this "literally" even dumber? I am perfectly aware the reasons why Series S exists but the potential, as far as I would say, were not used.
From a sales perspective, regardless how cool the machine is, did not set any sales on fire. Granted, this is due to various reason but this little machine was always in the shadows of its bigger brother. It didn't have anything for it besides the price.

A portable version, could have had both the price advantage BUT also something that the Series X could not match, portability. This gives it immediately an extra that the bigger brother does not have.

Also, people tend to be more "forgiving" when it comes to specs on a portable device than a stationary.

I still think and argue that the two console strategy make sense but only if one would have been a portable version.

I think this only makes sense development wise if that portable device is more like a portable pc machine with a customized cutdown windows OS stripped of extra features and dedicated to gaming. Then each game would be pre-configured with presets to make it run as smooth as possible on the device but with the added bonus of the user being able to further customize it if they wish (since it'd just be the pc version but maybe with the precompiled shaders).

That way you avoid the headaches of developers having to specifically develop a portable version with the caveat that the quality will obviously vary compared to a console version (which to be fair is already the case with third party ports on Switch for example).

I think in general Xbox should further differentiate itself by going for a variant of the window OS on their next console so developers essentially have to make a PC version with presets and with the added bonus of being able to sideload extra applications, like steam (tho you'd lose the extra features compared to just using the microsoft store for games purchases).

At the very least that'd be better than just making a variant of Sony playstation which is clearly losing in the popularity contest while gamepass itself is stagnating, development wise it'd mean just having one version of a game to release with just pre established settings for any configuration of xbox "consoles".
 

Garulon

Member
Jul 22, 2020
869
I think in general Xbox should further differentiate itself by going for a variant of the window OS on their next console so developers essentially have to make a PC version with presets

It already is running a variant of the Windows OS and the Game Development Kit makes the XBox just another target profile. If you mean windows mods and hacking and all that ugh no that's for the PC gaming hellscape