Xenophobia in Discussions About Epic/Blizzard

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,988
You don't see how that kind of rhetoric leads to things like deportation demands? It's dehumanizing.
Calling Chinese people 'trash' or something vile like that would be dehumanizing. Brainwashing, in varying degrees, is very much something that happens to humans and is not dehumanizing at all. Why do you think many Governments and corporations spend so much money on propaganda/advertisements? Why does the Chinese Government control every piece of media in the country?

I do understand that the word brainwashing does get used for Chinese people a lot (as it does for Russian and North Korean, I wonder why?) but what would be a better fit? Coerced? Groomed?

nobody would describe white Americans, who have been supporting Trump at above 50% since he’s been elected, as brainwashed.
Isn't that different because they have a choice in the matter? They have access to media that shows how despicable Trump is and still will vote for him.
 

kmfdmpig

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,388
nobody would describe white Americans, who have been supporting Trump at above 50% since he’s been elected, as brainwashed.

there is a dehumanizing aspect to it, and using that specific language does have a racialized history with Chinese people. Calling mainland Chinese people as brainwashed removes their agency as humans, and grossly oversimplifies how they actually feel about Government and being governed.
There is no real analogue in Europe or the US that compares with information control in North Korea or China. There are shitty people everywhere, but those two countries are much more overt in controlling what information their citizens can access.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
Calling Chinese people 'trash' or something vile like that would be dehumanizing. Brainwashing, in varying degrees, is very much something that happens to humans and is not dehumanizing at all. Why do you think many Governments and corporations spend so much money on propaganda/advertisements? Why does the Chinese Government control every piece of media in the country?

I do understand that the word brainwashing does get used for Chinese people a lot (as it does for Russian and North Korean, I wonder why?) but what would be a better fit? Coerced? Groomed?



Isn't that different because they have a choice in the matter? They have access to media that shows how despicable Trump is and still will vote for him.
Anything that doesn't make them sound like robotic automtons. That trope of the robotic stiff Asian is old as dirt and really annoying/degrading.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
nobody would describe white Americans, who have been supporting Trump at above 50% since he’s been elected, as brainwashed.

there is a dehumanizing aspect to it, and using that specific language does have a racialized history with Chinese people. Calling mainland Chinese people as brainwashed removes their agency as humans, and grossly oversimplifies how they actually feel about Government and being governed.
I would describe most rural white Americans as brainwashed
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,833
To me, it mostly manifests itself when people say things like "Blizzard is just catering to the Chinese market!" or "I guess Blizzard is just chasing that Chinese money!".

Those aren't criticisms of the government for moral reasons, and it doesn't really have a lot to do with censorship. To me, it comes off as "We expect Blizzard to be primarily catering to the Western market; acknowledging the desires of their Chinese playerbase is tantamount to betrayal of their Western players."

It's not the r-word, but it can sometimes feel like an "Our Culture vs. Their Culture" sort of thing, in a way that doesn't have much to do with actual moral concerns around the Chinese government. I've seen this with film studios as well.
When Blizzard changes how their games are made and the visual style censorship just to appeal to the Chinese gov't. Then yes is it is " west vs China 'culture'"

Because the gov 't basically controls their culture afaik.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
I would. Fox News exists for a reason.
white people were white peopling long before Fox News was a thing


Calling Chinese people 'trash' or something vile like that would be dehumanizing. Brainwashing, in varying degrees, is very much something that happens to humans and is not dehumanizing at all. Why do you think many Governments and corporations spend so much money on propaganda/advertisements? Why does the Chinese Government control every piece of media in the country?

I do understand that the word brainwashing does get used for Chinese people a lot (as it does for Russian and North Korean, I wonder why?) but what would be a better fit? Coerced? Groomed?



Isn't that different because they have a choice in the matter? They have access to media that shows how despicable Trump is and still will vote for him.
Everybody has a choice, both as individuals and as a collective social group.

There is no real analogue in Europe or the US that compares with information control in North Korea or China. There are shitty people everywhere, but those two countries are much more overt in controlling what information their citizens can access.
Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook) controls 90% of the news that the majority of Americans consume. It ended up influencing a national election. It still does!

the mechanisms are all the same, but whether it’s the state or a corporation
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
I would describe most rural white Americans as brainwashed
nope, statistically at any given time more than one in two white Americans as an entire ethnic group approve of trump. Let’s not make qualifiers on who’s to blame and who’s not.

brainwashed isn’t the right term cause white folks have been doing this looooong before mass media was a thing. There’s no Real excuse
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
white people were white peopling long before Fox News was a thing




Everybody has a choice, both as individuals and as a collective social group.



Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook) controls 90% of the news that the majority of Americans consume. It ended up influencing a national election. It still does!

the mechanisms are all the same, but whether it’s the state or a corporation
Indoctrination has also been a thing in America since before Fox News you know. But beyond that, I think most of the republican base who aren’t brainwashed are pretty terrible and selfish people, so i’m Not sure why you think it’s better to suggest that most Chinese people choose to support an objectively monster oust regime with the full knowledge of how shitty the things they’ve done are and why they’re so shitty than to suggest that they’ve been raised in such a way that is designed to discourage free thought and criticism
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
nope, statistically at any given time more than one in two white Americans as an entire ethnic group approve of trump. Let’s not make qualifiers on who’s to blame and who’s not.

brainwashed isn’t the right term cause white folks have been doing this looooong before mass media was a thing. There’s no Real excuse
The mass media is far from the only source of brainwashing. Religion, coming from a very homogenous community, lack of exposure to diverse thought, even the basic structure of many education systems are all parts of the brainwashing process in the US. The difference is that it’s far easier to get exposure to contrary opinions in the US. And yes, plenty of white people in the US are just objectively selfish or mean spirited people as well and support Trump for those reasons. Perhaps indoctrination is a more accurate word than brainwashing.
 

Hercule

Member
Jun 20, 2018
1,796
white people were white peopling long before Fox News was a thing




Everybody has a choice, both as individuals and as a collective social group.



Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook) controls 90% of the news that the majority of Americans consume. It ended up influencing a national election. It still does!

the mechanisms are all the same, but whether it’s the state or a corporation
You cannot compare the way people in the west get their news. People in countries like North Korea are living in a bubble.

We will never be able to fully understand why on earth someone in Russia or China would ever view Stalin or Mao as a hero.
 
Oct 29, 2017
436
Am I the only one who's a bit disconcerted with the amount of bashing that Asians/Chinese people are getting in certain gaming related spaces (ie Reddit, Steam, and other gaming forums) recently with the controversies around Epic/Tencent/Blizzard? I'm as opposed to Chinese authoritarianism as anybody, but the amount of times I see "Chinese are all brainwashed" or "government stooges" thrown around makes me deeply uncomfortable. Luckily I've not seen that sort of thing thrown around here and as an Asian American I'm grateful.

Once again I haven't noticed it here and I'm thankful.
Yes, been noticing it a lot on Reddit especially. Today I noticed it in discussion of the China/ESPN/NBA situation. Users were accusing Disney of virtue signaling for the "left" domestically, but not defending the human rights of Chinese citizens.

The truth is that all of this should be filtered through the lens of capitalism. Not this silly "Hollywood/Disney is librul" nonsense. Which is especially ridiculous considering Disney donates to Trump, and has a history of censoring reporters for all political discussions (not just related to international issues and China). It was just a couple of years ago that Jemele Hill (an ESPN reporter) was suspended multiple times for comments related to Trump and the Dallas Cowboy owner Jerry Jones.
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,908
Ireland
Honestly, I'm seeing more enthusiasm in the gaming community to be anti-China rather than pro-Hong Kong with little focus on human rights or showing solidarity with protesters and more on "Fuck China".
I'm a bit wary towards motivations in the gaming space partly because we know what kind of people "gamers" can be but also since the former lines up very closely with Trump's campaigns and attempts to demonise Chinese trade to line his own countries pockets.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
Honestly, I'm seeing more enthusiasm in the gaming community to be anti-China rather than pro-Hong Kong with little focus on human rights or showing solidarity with protesters and more on "Fuck China".
I'm a bit wary towards motivations in the gaming space partly because we know what kind of people "gamers" can be but also since the former lines up very closely with Trump's campaigns and attempts to demonise Chinese trade to line his own countries pockets.
I mean i’m Not sure how you can be pro Hong Kong in this situation without being anti China given that the Chinese government is the direct cause of the plight happening there
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

Member
Apr 16, 2018
524
Ok then, which gaming communities are you mentionning? I'm following some reddit gaming subs and I haven't see once a thread about China besides the one about Blizzard. You know that you might create a Streisand effect right?
I remember seeing it in gaming, pcgaming, and in the league sub mainly. And no I'm not worried about that second point.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
Where Chine should be interpreted as Chinese government, at least by non biased people
Yeah, I don’t get how this is so hard for some people to understand. China (or more precisely the People’s republic of China) is nothing more than a geopolitical entity known as a nation. A nation is a body that exists to govern the people within its borders. It is not the same as the people who live in the nation, especially in the case of undemocratic nation like china
 

rein

Member
Apr 16, 2018
446
Racists will come out of the wood works and pretend they're just concerned with what's been going on, it happens all the time. I see it a lot on Reddit but not so much here.
 

Myradeer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,309
Canada
How many percentage of current outrage are rooted in xenophobia? Pretty small, at least from what I've seen so far, in here and Hearthstone Reddit. There may be some xenophobic Chinese attackers in unmoderated sites, I guess, but every side has their own idiots.
 

Splader

Member
Feb 12, 2018
1,482
I try to make it a point to say "China Government" when I speak about them.
That being said, too many of the people themselves support the regime and are 100% okay with the atrocities being committed or are 100% okay with just pretending they don't exist.
That's not okay, but of course that doesn't mean I'm going to say something like "the Chinese suck". It's mostly the government that's the problem.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
Indoctrination has also been a thing in America since before Fox News you know. But beyond that, I think most of the republican base who aren’t brainwashed are pretty terrible and selfish people, so i’m Not sure why you think it’s better to suggest that most Chinese people choose to support an objectively monster oust regime with the full knowledge of how shitty the things they’ve done are and why they’re so shitty than to suggest that they’ve been raised in such a way that is designed to discourage free thought and criticism
The original point here is about language use. Socialization happens literally everywhere, to everyone. The United States does socialize (white) Americans to think a certain way but I would not characterize that as brainwashing because that language invokes passive participation.

In a way, when you call Chinese mainlanders brainwashed, you’re like a step away from saying they’re devoid/incapable of critical thought and empathy. Brainwash is a term that culturally we reserve for cults and cultists. And that’s why the OP, and others think it’s important that you choose language carefully so as to not invoke that kind of thinking.
 
Oct 29, 2017
436
Calling Chinese people 'trash' or something vile like that would be dehumanizing. Brainwashing, in varying degrees, is very much something that happens to humans and is not dehumanizing at all. Why do you think many Governments and corporations spend so much money on propaganda/advertisements? Why does the Chinese Government control every piece of media in the country?

I do understand that the word brainwashing does get used for Chinese people a lot (as it does for Russian and North Korean, I wonder why?) but what would be a better fit? Coerced? Groomed?



Isn't that different because they have a choice in the matter? They have access to media that shows how despicable Trump is and still will vote for him.
People don't understand what brainwashing even is though. Ultimately brain washing is just what happens after you are bombarded with insular messaging from whatever community, city, country, that you live in. Obviously the Chinese state controlled media takes things to an obvious and dystopian level, but we should also acknowledge that people in the United States are equally "brainwashed" by the insular American-centric news and entertainment that we consume on a daily basis.

The United States isn't harvesting organs, but we currently have racial minorities in camps, are fighting wars on multiple fronts that benefit multinational corporations, etc. And a good amount of the populace is just "okay" with all of it, because it doesn't affect them on a regular basis. It's totally naive to not realize that the makeup of China is similar, and that there are diverse groups of people within its population of 1.3 million people.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
Racists will come out of the wood works and pretend they're just concerned with what's been going on, it happens all the time. I see it a lot on Reddit but not so much here.
I mean of course they will, but threads like this feel likebthey’re Trying to equate those few racists with all the valid criticism and muddy the actual discussion on the issue. They’re also always jam packed with what aboutisms
 
Oct 29, 2017
436
Honestly, I'm seeing more enthusiasm in the gaming community to be anti-China rather than pro-Hong Kong with little focus on human rights or showing solidarity with protesters and more on "Fuck China".
I'm a bit wary towards motivations in the gaming space partly because we know what kind of people "gamers" can be but also since the former lines up very closely with Trump's campaigns and attempts to demonise Chinese trade to line his own countries pockets.
Yes, this is the scary part about all of this. The China fear mongering has long been part of propaganda from the right, and as much as I think siding with the protesters is a good and just cause, I worry that people on the right are intentionally conflating Hong Kong autonomy with a larger narrative that their peddling that's related to military saber rattling and economic insecurities.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
The original point here is about language use. Socialization happens literally everywhere, to everyone. The United States does socialize (white) Americans to think a certain way but I would not characterize that as brainwashing because that language invokes passive participation.

In a way, when you call Chinese mainlanders brainwashed, you’re like a step away from saying they’re devoid/incapable of critical thought and empathy. Brainwash is a term that culturally we reserve for cults and cultists. And that’s why the OP, and others think it’s important that you choose language carefully so as to not invoke that kind of thinking.
I’d argue that the Chinese government does run its education system like a cult. Not all cults are religious in nature. Trump’s following is also a type of cult imo for example
 

-Amon-

Member
Oct 28, 2017
455
I tend not to judge what other cultures do in their countries, in part because I don’t think that my culture is the right one only because it’s mine, in part because I would not like to be judged by foreigners.

But the problem here is that China is changing the world. And I don’t like the idea to be ideologically colonized by them. From what we can see the kind of control on people lives their government pushes upon them is terrifying. They seems to lack any respect for personal freedom.

As I said, they can do whatever they like with their own lives. But I’m sure that I don’t want to be forced to live as they do.
 
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CynicalSyndie

CynicalSyndie

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Apr 16, 2018
524
Just because you say that doesn’t mean that’s not what you’re doing, intentionally or not. Like we’re all saying that we aren’t doing what you’re suggesting and yet you still propose our line of thinking will get Chinese people thrown in camps
Fine be disingenuous. Regardless I never said anyone here was doing it. I said I've seen it elsewhere. But go ahead and think me an unwitting Chinese agent.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
I’d argue that the Chinese government does run its education system like a cult. Not all cults are religious in nature. Trump’s following is also a type of cult imo for example
Trump’s following is white people though. As in literally over half of white Americans

are white people a cult? I wouldn’t describe them that way, but I wouldn’t describe whiteness in American the last 300 years as cultish, mostly because i wouldn’t prescribe it to indoctrination.
 

Aaronrules380

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Oct 25, 2017
9,387
Trump’s following is white people though. As in literally over half of white Americans

are white people a cult? I wouldn’t describe them that way, but I wouldn’t describe whiteness in American the last 300 years as cultish, mostly because i wouldn’t prescribe it to indoctrination
A lot of uneducated white people are in fact a cult as far as I can tell. It’s not just indoctrination and it doesn’t apply to all Trp followers, but Trump absolutely does have a cult of personality
 

steviejd1

Member
Nov 8, 2017
6,988
People don't understand what brainwashing even is though. Ultimately brain washing is just what happens after you are bombarded with insular messaging from whatever community, city, country, that you live in. Obviously the Chinese state controlled media takes things to an obvious and dystopian level, but we should also acknowledge that people in the United States are equally "brainwashed" by the insular American-centric news and entertainment that we consume on a daily basis.
Oh I know there are elements of attempted indoctrination everywhere you go, hence why I mentioned Governments/corporations in the plural. There is less of an excuse for the Western world being indoctrinated/coerced though, especially these days, as we have access to all forms of opinions and sides, something Chinese people do not.

The United States isn't harvesting organs, but we currently have racial minorities in camps, are fighting wars on multiple fronts that benefit multinational corporations, etc. And a good amount of the populace is just "okay" with all of it, because it doesn't affect them on a regular basis. It's totally naive to not realize that the makeup of China is similar, and that there are diverse groups of people within its population of 1.3 million people.
The people that are ok with things like racial minority camps are assholes though, that again is different.

It is different because we have the choice to voice our displeasure at the Government for doing these things. Can Chinese people do the same without fearing for their lives?
 
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Soph

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
780
There are different kinds of people from China which can broadly be put into three groups.
- People who are innocent and oppose the government but won't say anything out of fear of repercussions. (or do say something since they know they can't be traced)
- People who are innocent but brainwashed and thus defend the regime's atrocities
- People who are actually evil because they know what the regime does and still support them

Saying some people are brainwashed is actually choosing the lighter sentence, as it insinuates it's not their fault. It's a lot better than saying they are all evil.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
A lot of uneducated white people are in fact a cult as far as I can tell. It’s not just indoctrination and it doesn’t apply to all Trp followers, but Trump absolutely does have a cult of personality
I love how you keep adding qualifiers like rural and uneducated when I’m plainly propositioning that white Americans are a cult
 

rochellepaws

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,908
Ireland
I mean i’m Not sure how you can be pro Hong Kong in this situation without being anti China given that the Chinese government is the direct cause of the plight happening there
It's more the focus of the concern and tends to show whether people are motivated through empathy for the protesters or see it as a vehicle to attack China. The protesters have stated demands and none of them seek to harm or humiliate China in that sort of aggressive spirit the gaming community appears to be encouraging. I think there is a nuance in the difference between standing with Hong Kong and standing against China.

Personally I'm hoping Lam resigns soon and they can begin some sort of peaceful process towards a resolution.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
I love how you keep adding qualifiers like rural and uneducated when I’m plainly propositioning that white Americans are a cult
Because over 40% of white Americans are not republicans, so there’s more diversity of thought there than in Chinese society because the US government doesn’t actively stamp out dissent.
 

Mekanos

Member
Oct 17, 2018
10,616
Serious question: is "indoctrinated" a more agreeable term to describe this phenomenon than "brainwashing" just to move on from the semantics debate? I understand the history of brainwashing as an anti-Asian racist term and even though I feel it's accurate, other terms exist.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,192
As a chinese-american, I am seeing the sentiment growing for sure. I don't really know what to do about it, in general I think of it from a personal pov and also think about the treatment of muslims in the US or of japanese internment camps and whether lessons will be learned from the perpetrators (they wont) and what lessons I can learn from these things.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,727
The criticism is aimed at the ruling party and its supporters. The majority of any populace just wants to live in what way they can. Nationalists are an entirely different beast to the average citizen.

This particular situation though is more about american companies bending over backwards to self censor in an attempt to appease said authoritarian regime.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
If people are thinking i’m Racist because I don’t think all of white america is brainwashed, i’ll Point out that the vast majority of citizens in Nazi Germany and modern Russia are brainwashed. The thing is that this type of indoctrination on a national scale is pretty much impossible without a totalitarian government that actively silences dissent. If America were to become a fascist nation we’d probably also become pretty brainwashed in a decade or two
 

Hydron

Member
Dec 7, 2018
4
The word “brainwash” is certainly being thrown around too casually. Whenever it is used, it degrades any meaningful discussion into a shouting match of “you are brainwashed” and “no you”. Being from China, I find it extremely frustrating that people hardly even attempts to understand the other side's reasoning. Yes, CCP does fucked up stuff, but people don't support it for that. More likely, they support the CCP for the economic growth and social stability under its rule (China hasn't seen either for almost 200 years). Many Chinese citizens, including some of my friends, values those over freedom or human right, which is why act the way they do. I don't agree, but it is important to see where they are coming from and understand they are living human beings, as opposed to brainwashed puppets that some people like to paint them as.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,192
orientalism by edward said is a very good read

it isn't about China per se, but it does capture what the project of xenophobia is kind of about / what it means as a tool
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
The word “brainwash” is certainly being thrown around too casually. Whenever it is used, it degrades any meaningful discussion into a shouting match of “you are brainwashed” and “no you”. Being from China, I find it extremely frustrating that people hardly even attempts to understand the other side's reasoning. Yes, CCP does fucked up stuffs, but there are people who support them for the economic growth and social stability under their rule (China hasn't seen either for almost 200 years). Many of my friends care about those more than freedom or human right, I don't agree, but it is important to see they are coming from and understand they are living human beings, as opposed to brainwashed puppets that some people like to paint them as.
Sure, and there are people like that in the US as well. But those people are also constantly being bombarded with propoganda that minimizes the wrong doings of the CCP and tries to downplay their existence. And the type of “brainwashing” i’m talking about doesn’t completely eradicate free thought, it just seeks to shape the values and beliefs of its people. To convince them that their prosperity and social stability wouldn’t be possible under other systems. To reinforce the idea that change couldn’t happen in a more positive way. That the people who are suffering at the hands of the government are either dangerous or necessary sacrifices

It turns out it’s way easier to indoctrinate people if you can make them feel like you’ve made their lives better and that they can trust you
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,867
Feels like a rather questionable thread to have here when even according to the OP, it doesn't actually take place here.

It's also next to inarguable that the CCP is indoctrinating its citizens heavily and, colloquially, you'll have people use the term brainwashing. It's clearly generally understood that it's not some literal process that robs people of any and all control, either.

The alternative is that Chinese people at large support these atrocious acts because...they are naturally evil? Obviously not.
 

low-G

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,311
Oh yeah you bet government supporters will rely on all tactics to attempt to discredit HK supporters.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,001
Feels like a rather questionable thread to have here when even according to the OP, it doesn't actually take place here.

It's also next to inarguable that the CCP is indoctrinating its citizens heavily and, colloquially, you'll have people use the term brainwashing. It's clearly generally understood that it's not some literal process that robs people of any and all control, either.

The alternative is that Chinese people at large support these atrocious acts because...they are naturally evil? Obviously not.
Are white people naturally evil?
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,769
I already have beef with China because of what's happening to the Uyghurs. The genocide being perpetrated against them is fucking bonkers.
Or should I mention their past atrocities as well? All of this and the treatment against the people of Hong Kong make me say 'Fuck China'.
So..fuck China. It's no different from me saying fuck Israel, or fuck the United States for their continuing atrocities.